MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: LTClimb on April 14, 2010, 12:27:25 PM
-
A few weeks ago, I accompanied Brad to finish The Arch - Up the Center route. We traversed under the roof to the seam from the right hand side. At the seam, Brad noticed what looked like a bolt hole about 1-2' below the roof. Brad was able to place two pitons to aid out. The next placement required a larger piton which he did not have. Not being able to access the bolt, we decided to come back and try to finish the climb later. Before leaving, Brad inspected the route below the seam and found a piton located about 18' feet up that was very well hidden. It looked to us like the start of the route was directly under the seam.
This morning Brad and I went back to try to finish the route. Upon arrival, we observed the climbing above the roof very wet and mossy, i.e. water still running down off the face. We agreed that due to how wet the top portion was, any attempt to climb this portion would not be prudent.
Thinking that the route was directly up to the seam, Brad inspected this area a little more closely and found what looked like a BAT hole about 12' up. He placed a hook about 8' up that allowed us to inspect the hole more closely. With access to the hole, Brad had me try to place a BAT hook knowing that I would not be able to, but being from Iowa :madman:, I needed to try. I was unable to set the hook (only because Brad would not hand me the hammer to set it firmly in the hole). Observing that the hole was drilled perpendicular to the wall, this suggests to us that the hole was drilled to place a hanger (or a mutant wood pecker thought it would be fun to drive climbers crazy ???). Possibly the hanger was originally placed and then removed (maybe to maintain the aesthetics of the wall?).
-
kewl, thx for the update...
aesthetics of the wall? bat guano encrusted dust slab? meh, ok ;)
-
Perhaps but that is a cool line. Who will be the first one to do it without pins?
Take pics when you do it.
-
you sure like the carnage, don'tcha
;)
-
do not get the mach 5
-
haha
-
I took photos of the lower hole, the one that is about 12 feet up. Although I thought at first that this might have been a hole for a BAT hook, there is no way. First, it was a 3/8" diameter hole, and way too deep for "quickie," BAT hook type use. Second, the rock is too soft, and I'm reasonably sure that a BAT hook would have blown out at the first attempt to use it. As is was, when LTClimb put a hook in the hole he was able to blow it out by just pulling down on the hook's sling (LT, is my memory that bad? We didn't really talk about setting it with a hammer did we? Anyway, it just blew right out when you pulled and the lip is soft and sloped). I don't think the route has seen a second ascent - judging by the pin scars in the roof seam/crack which are quite faint- so they also aren't blown out like granite BAT hook holes get from repeated use. This isn't a BAT hook hole. I have no idea how the bolts that seemingly must have filled these holes "went away." Did the first ascent party remove them afterward? They left the highest bolt, the one over the roof, so why remove these? And there is a triplet of bolts right up under the roof, 40 feet further left. Anyway, photos:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2500/4522635694_1915ea41bb.jpg)
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4059/4522635932_81bd0e0740.jpg)
I intend to climb this route, and I want to do it as the first ascent party did it. I think it may be the most intriguing aid line at Pinns (at least it is for me since I've already done Premeditated, which would be the only other candidate). Therefore, I intend to re-place at least the first bolt, the one needed to get to the fixed pin (we tried to free climb to the pin, but with no pro and no holds, we couldn't do it). I may re-place the second one too, and a third in a hole which I suspect exists from the spacing, but which I haven't actually seen. I may not re-place the highest of these if, from the pin, I can reach the crack which runs at the back of the roof (left to right). I will use tan anodized hangers (which will match the rock perfectly) and "spot" the bolt heads with similar paint.
I wanted to post my intent to put the bolts back in before doing so in case anyone has an objection to me doing this (I'm also going to link this to some folks who might care, but who don't read this site - as if a true Pinns climber wouldn't be posting here!).
-
I saw the route from the base today, never saw that pin before.
Aid Bouldered up to the hole, saw the pin and can imagine the other hole is above.
It looked like a standard bat hook spacing but the hole is deeper than a "Normal Bathook".
It looks to be well protected after the A3 start (gear under the roof)? I only mention this in hopes of discussing the inherent need for the bolts.
It would be weird for a team to remove bolts or studs down low seeing as they are/were/might have been necessary for progression. But as is said upthread, for asthetics?
Also, the hooks I saw and think I would use were to the right of the first hole, good looking hooks up to the pin.
Thanks for the opportunity to discuss the addition of these bolts. I for one would love to hear that they were used on the FA, More pro for you and me! Yet, I understand your goal is to preserve the natural ascent of the route.
Man does that line look good, maybe gonna have to try without the hammer if those bolts go in!!!
WHOOOP! UP the CENTER!!
-
The one hook I got to work was on the big hold right under the hole. I don't think you could hook up to the pin, from the right or from directly below. We played around with that and the rock is crumblier than it looks, and there are no other significant edges close enough to the pin to get to it. Try it though anyway. It's a soft landing, and your knees are young. I'll wait to re-place bolts if you want to try the direct start some other way.
Yes to clean gear under the roof (several cams, OK quality). But no clean gear going out the roof. I got in a Lost Arrow and a Knifeblade so far. I left them in place for next attempt. Next is a 3/4" angle in a narrow hole/slot. The A3 part looks to be the pins in the roof itself.
The moss above the existing bolt was dripping wet. It looks like mandatory free on big knobs for a little ways above that bolt. Not so hard when dry, but I wasn't willing to "have" to free even relatively easy looking stuff that was that wet.
-
Oh I remember you came in from the right. Well that changes everything. Man after seeing the line today I would have done it with bolts for sure.
No I think up to the roof with hooks would be really dangerous, A3 judging on the rock quality you describe that is 20 feet off the deck.
Good eyes on the pin and hole, pretty hard to see and I have missed that for 5 years! HAHA
Let me know when you are going down to finish it. I would like to be present to document the ascent if you and Phil don't mind.
-
What's this "document?" Document my ass, you'll have to participate.
And I'm not sure that doing it direct without the bolts is possible. I don't think there's anything to work with except the hook I used to inspect the hole and then hole and then the fixed pin (and that leaves you 8 feet or so below the roof). It's not a matter of A3 or A4, without "filling in" the existing holes there's nothing to do the moves on.
-
We did not discuss / talk about hammering in the hook, (my fault, a little embellishment for fun, as I have noticed that posts on the site don't go off route [right?])....... so your memory is still OK?
-
more pictures please
-
good man posting up and concern over preserving the FA
if the hole is deeper than a 2.25" rawl with hanger, then it's most definitely a hole that took a bolt before. That may technically be an assumption, but one that is entirely reasonable.
if so, try and put a sleeve bolt in there (do not use a wedge, not that you would), that way it can be pulled if it eventually offends (which it probably won't). Not only that but the initial attempt to put a standard rawl sleeve bolt may tell you much about the exact diameter... i.e. give you evidence to suggest the bolt was removed because it became loose from the poor rock quality around it... "I'll pull this because it's loose so no one else gets hurt on it." not out of the question, but still odd.
as for A3/A4, you'd be surprised what a modern beak can do in soft rock, but the impact would be more than re-using holes.
-
On Friday Josh and I went back to Arch - Up the Center.
We replaced four bolts. We did not have time to try to lead the route. For those who read these types of things, here are the details:
Mister Mucci moved up onto the big hook that is just below the first existing hole (the one below the old fixed pin, shown in the photo posted above). From this hook Josh measured the depth of the existing hole. It was about 1 1/4 inch to 1 1/2 inch deep and 3/8 inch diameter. No bat-hook hole would have worked here, and no one would drill a bat-hook hole that deep (also confirming that this was a bolt hole is the length of the fourth bolt, which was still in place up on the lip of the roof, and which we pulled and replaced; this was a 1 1/2 inch long Star Dryvin).
Not having bolts that short, Josh drilled the existing hole deeper and placed a 3/8 inch rawl with a very nicely camouflaged hanger.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7203/6903788695_ea27ec354e_z.jpg)
He then tried to move up on the old fixed piton in order to find and then replace the bolt that had been in the second hole. The piton shifted half an inch. Josh wasn't willing to stand up on this piton to find and then spend 30 minutes replacing the next bolt. Since Josh was obviously being a pansy, I went up and tried the fixed pin. It shifted again. Attempts to re-drive it sounded hollow and totally unconvincing. I was therefore also unwilling to stand on this piton and find and replace the next bolt.
Our further attempts to replace resulted in extreme shenanigans. However, eventually, we got it done.
Since neither of us was willing to stand on an obviously crappy fixed pin, we decided to get to the second bolt hole the way Phil and I had - by traversing in from the right. But both Josh and I had done this before and we knew it was a pain in the ass. And I'd brought only about 40% of my rack. We soon realized that this long traverse was more than we were willing to do without adequate pro.
So we decided to at least replace the fourth bolt while we were there. To access this I climbed the tree. This is a lot harder than it sounds. Josh and I used a series of rope throws over branches to protect what might have been the damp equivalent of 5.9 climbing. Eventually I got high enough to throw the rope over the huge branch closest to the route. Josh fixed the rope and I rapped. He then jumarred the rope, clipped the existing bolt and proceeded to spend 40 minutes hanging while he placed a 3/8 inch Rawl in good rock six inches to the right of the existing "at-the-lip" bolt. We were a little surprised how short the existing Star Dryvin bolt was (1 1/2 inches), and at the (poor) quality of the rock it was in.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7200/6903790401_186d8cf431_z.jpg)
We'd replaced the first and fourth bolts. How to access the middle of the route?
The answer came from two Santa Cruz climbers, John and Kathy. They were nearby and had a nice, long, cheater stick with them.
Since Josh was already in place, he got to continue (he did all the work, I can't believe how easy I had it). From his position at the last bolt, Josh used the cheater stick to clip first one and then the second of the two fixed pins I'd left in the crack under the roof. Using these clips, he lowered down and in toward the main face. He clipped another fixed pin that I'd left in the crack where the roof and face meet, but that pulled out with minimal weight. So, Josh used the cheater stick to shove a cam up into the crack. He was then able to stand on this in his aiders (so by this point his rope went from a tied off tree at the ground, over an upper tree limb, down to and then under the roof and to the main face - the swing-out if things had failed would have been safe but quite bottom clenching).
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7068/6903797383_ae459a747d_z.jpg)
Once in place Josh saw not one, but two more now-unfilled bolt holes (I had suspected a third hole as I described in a post above). Upon inspection each turned out to be 3/8 inch diameter and 1 1/2 inches deep.
Working from the top down, Josh drilled the upper hole (the third bolt/hole in order from the ground upward) deeper. He placed a Rawl in this hole. The hole below this (the second one up from the ground) turned out to be a problem. Once Josh put the drill in the hole and hit it with the hammer, we both realized that the whole area of rock was crap; it was totally hollow.
What to do?
It seems like a terrible idea to replace a bolt into a hole that one knows to be bad. We agreed on this. So, we had to either not replace the bolt, or put it in a different (newly drilled) hole. Having come to "restore" the route, we opted for the latter. Josh drilled in bullet rock about 14 inches left and slightly lower that where the existing hole was (and still is - unfilled).
We worried slightly that this (now third) bolt location would allow people with a long reach to skip the fixed pin by reaching to this second bolt while standing high in aiders on the first bolt. But then we realized that I had done just that while standing on the first bolt (in aiders). I'd reached up and put my finger on the existing second bolt hole. So, if we'd put that second bolt in the same hole, the result would have been the same.
We then retrieved our rope and gear. While doing this we experienced an ominous event: The first of the two pins I'd fixed into the roof crack, a pin I'd stood on with all my weight (and Josh too!), fell out as Josh flipped the rope around to clear it and the gear. Oh boy. I can't wait to go back up and replace and stand on that pin again.
Thanks, Josh for all the fun and for doing all the work.
-
Lol, fun!
Thx
Note to self don't use pin.
-
Sooooooo, is it restored yet, might a fellow go up it?
Edit: also tfpu, this is exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to read to take my mind away while at a wedding reception down in la.
-
nice job
-
Have you asked Larry about the route?
-
Kevin, yes, as far as I'm concerned it's ready to lead (again).
Any chance you'd let Josh and I have a crack at it first though?
Also, I forgot to mention, we looked very carefully all over the 30 feet above and around the last bolt (again for me - I'd rappelled over it once to check it out for the book). There are no bolts higher than the one we replaced. Josh and I are convinced that they ended the route by throwing the rope over the big branch and using it to rappel.
-
I'll def wait for you guys to take'er down.
With jingus one one side and arch on the other, looks like I can plan a pinnacles aid weekend again purty soon!
-
Psyched.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/joshmucci/P1040589.jpg)
Tree Climbing.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/joshmucci/P1040590.jpg)
There is where I would have gone.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/joshmucci/P1040592.jpg)
This climb is like a 6 on the Bagalaar scale, with Premeditated coming in at a strong 7.
All of Brad's fixed pitons fell out on me.
Homey with the lovetron mega stick gets the praise for our rebolting efforts.
I felt kinda cheap and was wondering if Tom was watching through a scope or something....
-
Is this considered a route???
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/joshmucci/P1040590.jpg)
-
Definitely 10a
-
Definitely 10a
You mean 5.9+ ??
-
This conversation is branching out too much. I wood comment about how hard it was, but it wasn't a real root. Besides, if I gave it a rating someone might bark at me. I'm board, maybe it's time to leave.
-
Why is Mucci's psyched look, very similar to his terrified look? ;D
-
Cuz they are one in the same at pinnacles.
Shenanagins I tell you, all in the name of high quality choss.
-
Ugh, tree climbing...
I still have mental scars from the tree climbing start to native son. Pictures of the tree limbs attached to screamers for protection as well. I trust trees less than pinnacles rock.
-
This conversation is branching out too much. I wood comment about how hard it was, but it wasn't a real root. Besides, if I gave it a rating someone might bark at me. I'm board, maybe it's time to leave.
sap
-
Oakay, I see you're trying to spruce up the thread with your pining for wooden puns. With you at the elm to lead the way, success is fir sure. After all no other manzanita's you are.
-
Pitch, pitch, pitch...is that all you guys do??
-
Digger pines are near - good for needling.
-
So bad that I'm heading off to work. At least I can find some intelligent conversation there...
-
I'm retired. Would you mind explaining "work" to me?
-
12 x 6.
-
I'm retired. Would you mind explaining "work" to me?
Oh that's just MEAN!
I'm going back to my spreadsheet now... :P
-
I'm retired. Would you mind explaining "work" to me?
Yeah, no problem. Work is what you're going to be doing on your next lead, when I give you ten feet of penalty slack for rubbing it in.
-
Nothing on the manzanita pun? C'mon!
-
either it's a pun stretched too far, or I missed it. ???
-
Quotes:
Brad:The answer came from two Santa Cruz climbers, John and Kathy. They were nearby and had a nice, long, cheater stick with them.
Mucci:Homey with the lovetron mega stick gets the praise for our rebolting efforts.
Hey guys - great to meet you both and glad to be of service. Pretty cool to have my stick-clip devirginated by such heavy hitters. I haven't been able to bring myself to use it to "cheat" on anything I've led and tell myself I carry it for retreats at this point.
-
Damn, there are climbers from Santa Cruz who have a stick clip? Who are they? The definitely don't teach that technique at Pacific Edge.
-
Let me get this staight. You have a means to cheat, you climb at the Pins, you have not cheated.
This does not make sense. Are you a Sonora Climber or somethin?
-
either it's a pun stretched too far, or I missed it. ???
"After all no other man's as neat as (manzanita's) you are."
C'MON! I'm dying up here!
-
Let me get this staight. You have a means to cheat, you climb at the Pins, you have not cheated.
This does not make sense. Are you a Sonora Climber or somethin?
ouch, once again you are out of my estate planning. No alien cams for you, two weeks!
-
Damn, there are climbers from Santa Cruz who have a stick clip? Who are they? The definitely don't teach that technique at Pacific Edge.
i learnt ta climb in Ken-tuck-ee
-
the end is near.
-
Let me get this staight. You have a means to cheat, you climb at the Pins, you have not cheated.
This does not make sense. Are you a Sonora Climber or somethin?
dang - i knew i would take a ribbin' for the stick clip but on my first post? - no time wasted trashin' me - i like it! makes me feel like i'm back at the crags with my old buds.
-
Who let this guy in?!
-
"After all no other man's as neat as (manzanita's) you are."
C'MON! I'm dying up here!
The munge abides. ;D
-
Thank you Munge.
Whew! I thought I was going to have to make a fake account to get some attention.
Last time I try to be punny. harumpf! >:(
-
Hey, Cobbledik, where is "up here" anyway?
John, Kathy, glad you could join us (here on the site). Try to Ignore Mud, he's old and his middle name is crotchety. He's also intensely jealous of Sonora area climbers (for good and obvious reasons). And, thank you again for dinner, that was most, most kind.
-
Up here was referring to performing puns on a stage.
The up here where I live is Concord-ish area.