MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: mungeclimber on November 26, 2011, 10:44:45 PM
-
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/rebolt.htm (http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/rebolt.htm)
http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/pinnacles.htm (http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/pinnacles.htm)
http://pinnacles.org/climbing_info/route_info.php3?category=Rebolt (http://pinnacles.org/climbing_info/route_info.php3?category=Rebolt)
This is a sticky thread for rebolting candidates:
1. Rings should go on #314, Gerties SW Face Far Left. There are anchors, but getting down requires downclimbing a 4th class chimney (and not at all third class). Request by Mungeclimber.
2. Little Sister Spire needs camo chains. Note that bolts are recessed from edge (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7014/6409695591_d5b909ec65_z.jpg). It had someone's bright cordage for a rap station. This is a visible spire from the trail. Request by Mungeclimber and Squiddo.
3. Heaven's Gate - second to last bolt needs re-aligning. FA author has approved moving, [urlhttp://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1587.0]if old hole is patched and new hardware uses stainless[/url].
4. Lucky 13. One hanger and bolt has galvanic corrosion but is fairly large bolt but potential thin type SMC hanger. Other anchor bolt reportedly flexing. Small diameter quick links need replacing with camo chain? They were small diameter. Request by JC.
5. Osiris - could use upgrade. Unknown "old" bolt condition. Request by JC.
6. Toog's Gallery - Lead bolts and anchor bolts at top of p1 look 1/4". Request by JC.
7. NE Corner of Monolith - Rusty Star Dryv needs replacing. However, "hanger" is special type "drilled piton". After inspection, brushing, and painting, it would be nice to leave the hanger in place if it appears ok. Possibly one of the last ones at Pinns. Request by JC and Mungeclimber.
8. Big Marmot anchor. Needs replacing smaller diameter rusty POS and camo chains.
9. No Smiles. First bolt is bad thin old SMC type hanger. Bolt appears to be good.
I'll try and add the list of already replaced items later...
-
2. Little Sister Spire has someone's bright cordage for a rap station. Camouflaged hardware set for an easy pull would be ideal (chains) on this visible formation.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7014/6409695591_d5b909ec65_z.jpg)
HA, nice....Munge that's F4's effort.
-
Second to last bolt on Heaven's Gate needs to be re-aligned.
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1586.msg17516#msg17516 (http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1586.msg17516#msg17516)
check with Brad and Jim Lundeen to be sure, but signs point to kosher to move this.
-
Um, yeah. Brad told me to do it last year when I mentioned doing the route.
Hey, my sling is in pretty good shape.
Best to swap out for some camo'ed chains.
-
Yes, if anyone has the time, inclination and energy to move that bolt, please do so. Please carefully patch the old hole and use stainless steel though? I'll try to get to it this season myself too.
-
camo'ed chains as well would be nice.
-
camo'ed chains as well would be nice.
But, but, the neon yellow cordolette so matched the rock
-
Let's set a HW update weekend for the area.
Of course, after the bird closures....
If we can get a date set, then we can get some HW from Greg or get Clint to pitch in.
And can you believe squiddo always matches his shirt to pants & helmet?
-
Svelt rebolting threads!
It's all about style! Do you even know what the stanDaRdS are?
-
I have tons of ASCA anchors and hangers. I ran out of a box of the standard SS replacement 3.25" that Greg B gave me.
10 feet or so of pinnacles drilling. Much happier climbing.
I will call for resupply on the bolts, Just let me know.
-
Why not stop off at home depot and get a box? They are pretty cheap.
Great to hear mucci has the connection.
-
Why not stop off at home depot and get a box? They are pretty cheap.
Great to hear mucci has the connection.
F4- are you posting with a newborn? Pay attention
-
Sisters rebolting next week? Say 26th??
-
Clint and I rebolted Tugboat last Wednesday. Clint found a bolt hole with a Star Dryvin without hanger in it at the base of the steep water streak so he put in a 3/8"x3.75" SS Rawl 5-piece(all bolts we replaced were with the same type which are provided to us by the ASCA) which can be used as the first belay.
I replaced the first protection bolt in the streak which was a 1/4"x1.5" rawl splitshaft with homemade(non-heat treated) aluminum hanger. Clint replaced the second protection bolt which was one of those "drill a 3/8" hole and fill it with a 1/4" bolt numbers" that unfortunately seem to abound at the Pinnnacles. It is worth noting that there is a lot of moss on the upper portions of the water streak so when the next ascent happens in about 2025 this bolt may be overgrown with moss.
Clint found a 1/4" split shaft with a Longware hanger at the top of the water streak where it gets really easy and the climb is over so he removed it. Also, we removed the single, 3/8" Star Dryvin with Longware hanger which was the rappel anchor and moved the rappel to the southwest corner of the pinnacle where I drilled two bolts and installed quick links and 3/8" chain.
You can now rappel about 80-85' to the west side of the formation, just uphill from where the climb starts.
BTW, some of the rock on this formation is really hard!
-
... so when the next ascent happens in about 2025 this bolt may be overgrown with moss.
I laughed out loud. That is indeed a really obscure formation to work on.
Thanks as always for the rebolting, Bruce and Clint.
-
It took two trips by Clint and me, one trip by Clint himself, and one trip by my friend Frosty and me to rebolt the Balconies Regular Route and because we couldn't do everything in parallel I spent a lot of time hanging in slings looking over at Tugboat. So, I thought it would be a nice to go over there and climb and rebolt it. Turned out to be a true Pinnacles adventure and I am(knock on wood) still poison oak free!
-
Wow, rebolted the Regular Route. That is a lot of bolts. Will have to give that one another go. Thank you for the info on Tugboat. A little surprised you did not add a TR while you were there.
-
thx guys!
-
One comment on the removal of the 'superfluous' bolt. Having the complete history of the climbing routes to an area is pretty important when rebolting. I own every guidebook to the Pinnacles and since none of them even mentioned that bolt it was OK to removed it, especially since it wasn't protecting anything. Sometimes, when you come upon unexpected bolts there are some hard decisions to be made. Luckily, this wasn't one of those times.
-
I was leading Alias Bandit Bench this past weekend and noticed someone had put some of the small gauge quicklinks at the anchor for p1 which is shared with Lucky 13. I didn't rappel from there but obviously someone has. One of the links wasn't tightened, so I took care of that. There is no equalization unless at least one chain were to be added and I also wouldn't trust my rope end to pull through those smaller gauge links (haven't ever tried it). Would it be okay to add some bigger links and add one chain to equalize that anchor? I'd be willing to do it if you can tell me where to get the right kind of chain. I already have a supply of large gauge quicklinks and a wrench to tighten.
I solo'ed the Easy Route on Osiris a couple weeks ago and there are no rings or chains on those summit anchors. There are 3 hangers on older bolts and a star dryvin that looks a little newer than the others. I forgot to take a pic. It would be nice to have that one updated, although I doubt it sees much action with only 2 routes. I left a quicklink on the hanger with the star dryvin for a belayed downclimb at the insistence of my pard/KC.
thanks,
JC
-
You can get chain at Orchard, Ace Hardware or Home Depot. Be sure to paint them since that is a fairly visible spot. Brown DeRusto Primer works well.
-
excellente.
any bad experiences with pulling rope through the smaller quicklinks?
-
small screw gate links are bad. Even the larger ones (3/8") are only 2200lbs. The small ones I've seen are anywhere between 200lbs to 1100lbs. Quality is not job 1, with imported screw gates, so are broader margin is best.
-
I'm not sure you pull the rope through the quick links (which I call screw gates so as to be clear that we are not talking about smash links). As I've seen it done, the screw ages are used to attach the chain to the bolt hanger and the rope is threaded through the end link of the chain (would a photo help, I can take and post one?).
Usually 3/8" galvanized chain works well. And you'll want odd numbers of links (when odd numbers are connected to the bolt hanger with a screw gate, the end chain links are left vertical to the plain of the rock, allowing the best possible rope pull with the least possible friction).
And I usually use screw gates that are slightly larger than the chain.
-
Munge - i only use the 3/8" and i get them at Pac edge - so they are the 2200lb ones.
Brad - yes it is the screw gate and not smash link - no pic necessary. KC and I carry one apiece with us in case of an emergency bailout. i've only left them in 2 places - we installed two at the anchor for p1 on Lichen to Lead and then i left one for a belayed downclimb on top of Osiris. I carry a wrench so i can tighten them too. i also know never to try and tighten bolts. the rope pulls okay from the larger screw gates but the smaller ones look like the end of the rope might hang - i've seen that happen before.
i appreciate the info on an odd # of links for chain - never would have thought of that. most climbs i've done that have an anchor set up for rappel either have chains (w or wout smash links) or rings. exceptions so far are adam's apple and old original p1. adam's apple has those special rounded/curved hangers i asked you about many moons ago and OO has super beefy hangers.
-
If you use the larger chain size you can pull the rope thread the rope through the chain itself. I only use the larger screw gates. I think I use 1/2 (not sure they are big). Sometimes I have to file the threads a bit to get it to go through the chain. The only times I use the small screw gates is if there is no other options since Rob is correct they are not real strong.
-
If you use the larger chain size you can thread the rope through the chain itself. I only use the larger screw gates. I think I use 1/2 (not sure they are big). Sometimes I have to file the threads a bit to get it to go through the chain. The only times I use the small screw gates is if there is no other options since Rob is correct they are not real strong.
i checked my log and i did take note of one rap station that has one chain and one large screw link - it's at the top of p1 on Bullseye. No big deal since we didn't rap from there - don't know why anyone would. the ones that make me leary are the two bolt stations with only smash links or only rings or only screw links (no chains) spaced more than a few inches apart. those look to me like they probably put too much inward force on the bolts similar to what the american triangle (death triangle) generates. example - Cool Daze has only rings with about a foot between the bolts - seems like in addition to the inward force generated on the anchors the short length of rope between the bolts might be subjected to a large stress. i'm no physicist but it just seems wrong. feel free to enlighten me if anyone has more info on how anchors are supposed to be configured of if there is a good reference somewhere. i like to be as informed as possible when i'm hanging my arse or someone else's! on the line...
-
seems like in addition to the inward force generated on the anchors the short length of rope between the bolts might be subjected to a large stress. i'm no physicist but it just seems wrong. feel free to enlighten me if anyone has more info on how anchors are supposed to be configured of if there is a good reference somewhere. i like to be as informed as possible when i'm hanging my arse or someone else's! on the line...
As long as it's basically a static load, it wouldn't present too much of an issue. caveat, I'm not an mechanical engineer.
-
As long as it's basically a static load, it wouldn't present too much of an issue. caveat, I'm not an mechanical engineer.
you and i must think alike. i always just lean back and go easy when i don't love the anchor setup. i'm always amazed when i see someone bouncing down a rappel. i was always taught to be as gentle as possible to the equipment. i thought about becoming a mech eng when i was younger but ended up getting heel-hooked by geology.
-
Webbing and a rap ring...done
-
It is not a problem since the angle from the bolts down is not steep. The rope through the links creates the same angle as chains or webbing. Part of the problem with the triangle is one how the webbing is threaded to create the rap station. It can be done in such a way that if the webbing breaks you go to the ground. Two if short webbing is used then the angle increases the load on the system. There are some good threads on this on SuperTopo. Read anything by Clint.
-
Ya talking about the American tri-angle?...love it.
2x think screw links are good if the rope is feeding right.
And I want my yellow webbing back from Heaven's gate....
-
Had a nice cool morning to lead Toog's Gallery yesterday. The bolts were threaded studs with nuts. The stud size looked like substandard 1/4" hardware store junk to me - not exactly confidence inspiring. I treated the bolted sections like a solo with the exception of my gear placements. To my dismay, one of the anchor studs at the top of p1 was the same junk. One of the hangers was homemade (square angle with drilled hole - like in the guidebook pg 24 example c) with a star dryvin and i barely got my carabiner through. At least one of the hangers on p1 was the same homemade type and the hanger above the crux was too. My wc nitros wouldn't go through, but luckily I had two bd draws with keylock noses that were very tight but doable(barely). My main concern was the belay anchor at the demarcation ledge. I did not trust it. There was a tree about 10 feet away in the crack (toward alligator) so I slung it and clipped a section of rope in. I seem to remember seeing a bunch of old slings on another smaller tree too (maybe that was the traditional backup). I'd have to go back up and look again. Not sure why I didn't sling that one instead. Regardless, I figured if my pard took a big fall(not likely) and both the anchors blew, at least we probably wouldn't die - IF the tree held (seemed solid enough).
Does anyone have an opinion on that anchor?
One other thing I noticed was a lone bolt just past the water streak after you scramble across the top of alligator chimney - it's not on the guidebook topo - page 306. Star dryvin with a "modern" shape albeit thin metal, loose hanger.
We continued further along the ledge before scrambling up unprotected - as shown on the guidebook pic - pg 305.
all in all a fun and adventurous multi pitch but i just did not trust that anchor.
I looked for a cam placement in the crack underneath but it was crap.
i can take some pics too if that would be helpful.
-
fwiw, it's something of a "standard" to carry a selection of small diameter nose carabiners for the old bolts at pinns. As more and more rebolting occurs we lose the experience of "oh shit, this biner doesn't fit" and quietly panicking in mental hysteria as you realize that your entire rack of the same biner, obtained for it's consistency, is now useless. Fortunately, you quickly recover and formulate how those "alpine draws" of dynex or nylon you picked up for the West Ridge of Conness can be threaded and hitched, because you have to make do.
:)
-
If you're interested in trying some re-bolting, I'll go re-bolt it with you next season. But not in this heat. And my Pinns season will start late this coming Autumn - not until after I'm done with the SPH fieldwork.
-
If you're interested in trying some re-bolting, I'll go re-bolt it with you next season. But not in this heat. And my Pinns season will start late this coming Autumn - not until after I'm done with the SPH fieldwork.
thanks Brad,
i would definitely be interested in doing that. i want to learn all i can about fixed pro.
by the way - the weather Sat was cool enough to go into the High Peaks early. my teeth were chattering on route in a t-shirt and shorts around 9:00 and it stayed overcast til around noon - then the wind picked up big time - howling!
-
thanks Brad,
i would definitely be interested in doing that. i want to learn all i can about fixed pro.
by the way - the weather Sat was cool enough to go into the High Peaks early. my teeth were chattering on route in a t-shirt and shorts around 9:00 and it stayed overcast til around noon - then the wind picked up big time - howling!
Yeah, but overall it's still hot.
Yesterday we put up a new route on a 70 foot slab on perfect granite. "Footholds and Fingernails," 5.10a. We did nice crack climbs, including a gut-busting 5.10a offwidth, also on nice granite. Today more of the same.
It's just not Pinnacles season.
-
fwiw, it's something of a "standard" to carry a selection of small diameter nose carabiners for the old bolts at pinns. As more and more rebolting occurs we lose the experience of "oh shit, this biner doesn't fit" and quietly panicking in mental hysteria as you realize that your entire rack of the same biner, obtained for it's consistency, is now useless. Fortunately, you quickly recover and formulate how those "alpine draws" of dynex or nylon you picked up for the West Ridge of Conness can be threaded and hitched, because you have to make do.
:)
fwiw set off: better STOP...children what's that sound...everybody look what's goin' round...
thanks Munge - good humor always appreciated. i know better now. i have a few mini metolius biners on my hexes - which i don't carry on my Pinns rack anymore (another lesson learned). i've clipped quite a few old narrow hole hangers in the High Peaks but never any as tight as those on Toog's. i think the Toog's hangers were thicker than the others i've encountered previously.
-
It's just not Pinnacles season.
those granite climbs sound nice.
yes...i know...but remember...i don't know anything else in CA...or know any better...just chasing the dream...
compared to hazy, hot and humid back east - every day here is paradise!
-
WHAT?!
It is always Pinnacles Season
It's just not Pinnacles season.
-
This is the lone bolt on the NE Corner 5.6* of the Monolith - what a JOKE! FA says 1956. It gave me a feeling of security equal to clipping the pull tab on a BLL. I only put the draw on it to act as a directional for KC. The knob just below it looks slingable from below. Unfortunately the top surface is a smooth slanting sloper with no lip and even though I wanted to sling it, I seriously doubt it would keep a sling in place. Maybe the fact that you have to lead the first pitch of the Regular Route to get up here negates any real pro on this separate climb? Needless to say, I treated it as a solo. I'd be grateful if someone would be willing to use this as a teaching tool and help me replace the bolt and hanger.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4436/37329252185_d161372a07_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YSEb9i)
-
so no comments on this POS?
-
I will set up a time, in the NEAR future, where we can both go and replace that relic.
It looks to be a choice hanger, maybe even a Dolt Pin?
I have never done that route either....
Thanks for the heads up!
-
I will set up a time, in the NEAR future, where we can both go and replace that relic.
It looks to be a choice hanger, maybe even a Dolt Pin?
I have never done that route either....
Thanks for the heads up!
right on brudda!
-
I have never done that route either....
What???
It's a great line. That bolt is just fine....
You also have to do the Piton traverse as well....preferably when wet to get the full experience (extra points for wearing any of said items... knickers, suspenders and double leather boots with a nail or 2 for traction).
-
What???
It's a great line. That bolt is just fine....
You also have to do the Piton traverse as well....preferably when wet to get the full experience (extra points for wearing any of said items... knickers, suspenders and double leather boots with a nail or 2 for traction).
yep...that's the ticket!
too late...i already did the taverse but no extra points...
starting the traverse...i believe my next words were HOLY CRAP!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4393/37329252615_2afe7bfce3_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/YSEbgH)looking back
after clipping the last piton
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4409/36516155583_43895f1c33_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XCNQRn)
-
I will set up a time, in the NEAR future, where we can both go and replace that relic.
It looks to be a choice hanger, maybe even a Dolt Pin?
I have never done that route either....
Thanks for the heads up!
leave the pin if it's not corroded (perhaps brush it down and paint it), just replace the bolt itself.
-
Suggested replacement per JC
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1720.0 (http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1720.0)
Anchor bolt flexing and lower bolt is SMC corrosion type.
-
leave the pin if it's not corroded (perhaps brush it down and paint it), just replace the bolt itself.
no worries. i probably won't ever mess with it - it's a piece of Pinns history. is it an old piton that was modified into a hanger? it just didn't look like anything i would want to fall on - but on this route i wasn't going to fall anyway. maybe that was the logic when they rebolted the corner anchor - plus i already mentioned previously in this thread that you have to be strong and skilled enough to lead the Regular Route to get up here - so the corner route is just good fun after that - with or without the pro. the rebolting team may have also considered the close proximity of the bolt to the corner anchor - if this relic were to pop, the anchor would catch ya...
-
it hasn't been rebolted, yet, has it? I figured the star dryv was from the FA, but you did say 1953, eh?
It should get rebolted with a good bolt, just I love those curious pieces of gear!
-
it hasn't been rebolted, yet, has it? I figured the star dryv was from the FA, but you did say 1953, eh?
It should get rebolted with a good bolt, just I love those curious pieces of gear!
1956 - it's a couple years older than me!
To my knowledge no one has touched it.
It's only been a month since we were up there.
Haven't heard from Mucci lately. Maybe when they all think it's the season again.
As for us? we go every weekend.
-
you crazy kids. It's 108 season. ;)
We'll fix ya right up next weekend though.
-
I shutter at the thought of replacing those pins. Would be fun to do it on
Rappel... ;D
-
I was disturbed by this anchor yesterday. Brad had mentioned seeing one configured like this on SPH with a substandard size chain - which this appears to be. I thought the inconspicuous white paint was a nice touch too - probably rustoleum.
The rappel is only about 20 feet. This is the anchor above Dumbo at Elephant Rock.
The FA shows as 2000.
any thoughts?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dZKVNcytsai0hRmsajlF1pVtMCK851ww8z9Vg04Nv7pW0T8UIQXHRsqre36yV7csoCwDRGgbVJwTVfzNIDVQT5nYic13IjVz1dofiysRYYq2TzOOmnL6G_p7DvX8SVsyEEbJYpYmSGJob8dyY0S4Dh=w786-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
That bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith should be in the National Historical Registry. It's the only one left at Pinnacles that I know of. Anybody else know of another? I think a modern bolt nearby and perhaps a little plaque next to it are in order.
-
I was disturbed by this anchor yesterday. Brad had mentioned seeing one configured like this on SPH with a substandard size chain - which this appears to be. I thought the inconspicuous white paint was a nice touch too - probably rustoleum.
The rappel is only about 20 feet. This is the anchor above Dumbo at Elephant Rock.
The FA shows as 2000.
any thoughts?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4425/36491307304_cb794d34d3_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XABujL)
This pic looks upside down.
Waldo, yes!
-
Yup, I agree. It's bommer.
That bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith should be in the National Historical Registry. It's the only one left at Pinnacles that I know of. Anybody else know of another? I think a modern bolt nearby and perhaps a little plaque next to it are in order.
PS, the chain setup mentioned...that's a std Fixe stainless setup. By no means is it substandard. Even better is to hit it w black and red paint.
-
I was disturbed by this anchor yesterday. Brad had mentioned seeing one configured like this on SPH with a substandard size chain - which this appears to be. I thought the inconspicuous white paint was a nice touch too - probably rustoleum.
The rappel is only about 20 feet. This is the anchor above Dumbo at Elephant Rock.
The FA shows as 2000.
any thoughts?
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4425/36491307304_cb794d34d3_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XABujL)
JC, the one I mentioned up here had store-bought 5/16th inch (probably chinese made) chain in a similar configuration. Safety depended on about six of the chain links all being safe (these six extended down from one bolt - if any one link broke, the rappel would fail).
I suspect that the Fixe gear in this anchor is better, but I still think it is foolish (partly because it is so unnecessary) to use one link to rappel from - even if the one point is of the quality shown in your photo.
-
BY, what do you mean "one point"?
-
BY, what do you mean "one point"?
One ring in the case of John's photo; instead of two rings or chain-ends like we usually set up. I edited my post to clarify.
-
Here's the photo I told John about. When I was at the rappel point in this photo last summer I added 3/8" chain to the "backup" bolt so that instead of rapping from one length of 5/16" chain, the rap was from two separate sections of chain, one extending to/from each bolt.
(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n96/uncle-stinky/oldpickandConnarsnp056.jpg)
-
that's a std Fixe stainless setup. By no means is it substandard. Even better is to hit it w black and red paint.
thanks for the clarification re std.
red and black?- who are you? Dudley DoRight?
yes munge - it is turned around b/c you have to be hanging on the rappel to take it from the right perspective - i suppose i could have rotated the pic.
my main concern was no equalization and a minor concern about the white vs camo paint.
thanks Brad.
-
thanks for the clarification re std.
red and black?- who are you? Dudley DoRight?
yes munge - it is turned around b/c you have to be hanging on the rappel to take it from the right perspective - i suppose i could have rotated the pic.
my main concern was no equalization and a minor concern about the white vs camo paint.
thanks Brad.
Copy that Brad. Probably non-climber stole the chain.
I think Fixe rings are rated to 24kn or something ridiculous. But admittedly in a high traffic area, that could wear thru and then you are back to a single point of failure.
JC, gotcha. By no equalization, I suspect you mean a single point of failure because it looks like if the ring were weighted the tension probably would be equally distributed between both bolts. All just guesswork since I don't know where those anchors are. :)
White paint at pinns only works if the bolts are seated in bat or bird guano. hah Seriously though, the red and black, if mottled correctly with some brown spray paint really does make for a nice cheap camo option for pinns. A lot of us do camo there because routes are fairly close to trails.
-
JC, gotcha. By no equalization, I suspect you mean a single point of failure because it looks like if the ring were weighted the tension probably would be equally distributed between both bolts. All just guesswork since I don't know where those anchors are. :)
White paint at pinns only works if the bolts are seated in bat or bird guano. hah Seriously though, the red and black, if mottled correctly with some brown spray paint really does make for a nice cheap camo option for pinns. A lot of us do camo there because routes are fairly close to trails.
the way it is set when you rap off - all your weight goes on the hanger with the ring and if that were to pop, the other bolt would presumably hold. if you go back and check my original post i said it's at the top of Dumbo on Elephant Rock which is a really short 5.8 - probably 20 feet to the top. i just found it strange that a climb so recently established(2000) wasn't done right - but on the other hand the first ascentionists probably thought it was overkill to set up a two chain equalized anchor for such a short rappel. two short chains would be fine - or two rings with screw links. for that matter you could just have the bolts and downclimb just around the corner from there. no big deal.
i hadn't heard of the red/black mottled thing before - just crackin' wise...
-
That was Connar's first rappel. Unless something really goes wrong he will be Valedictorian at Lodi High this year. He is on the East coast this week looking at schools.
-
I used to buy Stubai carabiners for old Pinnacles hangers. The Stubais weren't reassuring, but they were better than nothing. Likewise, Bonattis. Black Diamond has the narrowest gate 'biners I know of now. Don't leave home without one.
-
That was Connar's first rappel. Unless something really goes wrong he will be Valedictorian at Lodi High this year. He is on the East coast this week looking at schools.
where does the time go?
-
anchor at Big Marmot - 1 "good" bolt, 1 bad bolt w spoon hanger + 1 inch webbing in a magic x through both bolts + a backup sling on the "good" bolt and 2 aluminum rap rings on the sling array, no chains or quicklinks(screwlinks)
we added a new sling on the good bolt backup leg.
here's the bad bolt - looks like 3/16" hardware store crap with a square nut - threads barely show through the nut
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4389/36933526550_c99c4c9680_z.jpg)
-
The second, of the two, bolts on "No Smiles" on Smiling Simian West Face has been replaced with a 3.75" stainless steel double wedge bolt (http://www.fixehardware.com/shop/bolts/fixe-ss-3/8-x-3-3/4-double-wedge-bolt/) and stainless steel hanger.
Normally I wouldn't place a wedge, but this is a double wedge, so there are two contact points, much like the Powers, and the rock quality was pretty good. In addition, it was the only long SS I had. :( So I chose long and SS over more potential contact with a carbon steel bolt and carbon steel hanger.
I didn't have the juice to hang in my harness for another bolt, but the first one looks like the hanger is one of the thin SMC style.
The old bolt was a compression bolt in pretty good shape. It took me an hour or so with just tuning forks to get it out.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8495/8276772968_026b346dfc_c.jpg)
The new bolt
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8223/8276773266_62d7f11a46_c.jpg)
-
I appreciate your hard work to help repair any routes - even if I'm not up to doing them yet. I guess KC and I should have helped you today since we didn't get to do any climbing. I thought about it on my way up the Juniper Canyon Trail.
-
Munge, that bolt looked good. Maybe re use it on the pass this summer...
JohnMC was using washers to get his out, but eneded up just snapping them off.
-
Clint and Bruce rebolted route #249 "Big Marmot Rock - Regular Route" yesterday. Instead of two old bolts with hangers and three hangerless studs, this is what they left (from Clint's email):
"...the Regular route in its new status with 4 good bolts (first is an old 3/8", rest are new 3/8" stainless)."
-
On 1/16/13 Marty Foltz and I replaced one anchor bolt and equalized the chains on the top of the first pitch of Son of Dawn Wall. While all the bolts could use replacement, I was only certain of getting the one out and being able to reuse the same hole. I was lacking proper removal tools for the others. The bolt I did replace popped out easily with a couple swings of the hammer.
New hardware is a 3/8" x 3 1/2" Stainless 5 Piece.
This is the first time I've replaced anything at Pinns.
Super sketchy
(http://www.flickr.com/photos/queener/8390505290/)
Edit: Image won't show up. www.flickr.com/photos/queener/8390505290/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/queener/8390505290/#)
-
Thanks for the help, kyqueener.
-
Clint and Bruce rebolted route #249 "Big Marmot Rock - Regular Route" yesterday. Instead of two old bolts with hangers and three hangerless studs, this is what they left (from Clint's email):
"...the Regular route in its new status with 4 good bolts (first is an old 3/8", rest are new 3/8" stainless)."
clarification please? the guide book says it has 5 bolts - does 4 good bolts not count/include the first old 3/8"?
-
That anchor is the not the full pitch anchor. It's the sub anchor. Went in without a guidebook to A1 something just to climb one day and ended up at the same location. Rapped off that sketch junk. Thx for the work!
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/2229590159_fda2402a05.jpg)
-
On 1/16/13 Marty Foltz and I replaced one anchor bolt and equalized the chains on the top of the first pitch of Son of Dawn Wall.
Ironic you should post just now - I was just perusing some old threads and wondered what happened to you.
-
clarification please? the guide book says it has 5 bolts - does 4 good bolts not count/include the first old 3/8"?
They left the first, 3/8" inch bolt and replaced three others with new bolts. They left one unreplaced.
-
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/2229590159_fda2402a05.jpg)
Does anyone know what type of bolt in on the left side of the anchor? Looks home made. I had no idea how to remove it, other than extreme force.
-
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8052/8390505290_6a7e3cf0c7_z.jpg)
KyQ's image
-
shiny pretty things
-
what going on with this thread? Rob - your original post for this thread now starts page 3?
-
what going on with this thread? Rob - your original post for this thread now starts page 3?
All of the sticky threads start that way - the main subject, in the first post, stays in front too.
-
They left the first, 3/8" inch bolt and replaced three others with new bolts. They left one unreplaced.
Okay - thanks - I made a note in my guidebook.
Aaron and I thought about doing that route the day we went up there but ran short of time.
-
All of the sticky threads start that way - the main subject, in the first post, stays in front too.
thanks Brad - never noticed that before. Guess I need to work on my observational skills :)
-
I suppose I should update the original post with a list of rebolting to date, and proposed rebolts so that it's not all over the place.
project for later, but I'll do it unless Mud has time to consolidate...
-
If you do mind that would be great. If I was not so busy with work I may actually get out an climb. Have managed the gym for the third consecutive week.
-
I suppose I should update the original post with a list of rebolting to date, and proposed rebolts so that it's not all over the place.
project for later, but I'll do it unless Mud has time to consolidate...
That would be a great project. But, among others, you'd have to ask Bruce and Clint to let you know what the do (and what they've done. They usually just go out quietly, rebolt some route and leave it at that. On the other hand, they usually do it for the ASCA, and maybe the ASCA could help track what's been done?
-
maybe the ASCA could help track what's been done?
Their website has a list for Pinns.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/pinnacles.htm (http://www.safeclimbing.org/areas/california/pinnacles.htm)
-
This would have to be a supplement for what we collect for the mudders. The ASCA site doesn't get updated regularly. It looks like it hasn't gotten updated since 2010 as of today.
I'm sure we could ask Bruce and Clint their thoughts on whether this site is a good place to keep track of rebolting, or if they are already are elsewhere, to have them post up regularly and we just update it.
Anyways, it won't always be comprehensive, but if we clean it up some and start using it ourselves... if you post it, they will come.
-
Or if their site is kept up to date we can link their site a the top of the sticky. Which ever works best for everyone.
-
added Clint's Site, FOP and ASCA links to the OP for now
-
Here's the skinny on Big Marmot Rock. It looks like the original FA used a bolt ladder of six 1/4" Rawl split shaft bolts. Over time, only the fifth bolt in the ladder had a hanger. Somewhere in time, most likely the mid to late 80's, someone added the first bolt which looks like a 3/8" Rawl split shaft with a good, thick SMC stainless hanger making a total of seven bolts on the route.
Clint and I replaced the first, third and fifth bolts in the 1/4" ladder with 3/8" x 3/5" SS Rawl 5-piece bolts. We removed the second, fourth and sixth bolts which were all just studs with no nuts or hangers. We left the 3/8" bolt so there are now four bolts on the route.
We replaced the 1/4" anchor bolt with two 3/8"x3.5" SS Rawls and added quick links and chains for rappel.
Bruce
ps - Sister Spire and the Powell route on the Monolith are on the list for next week if the weather holds.
-
We replaced the 1/4" anchor bolt with two 3/8"x3.5" SS Rawls and added quick links and chains for rappel.
Thanks for all the work you do Bruce.
I'm free on Fridays if you ever want an extra hand and are willing to school me.
I look forward to heading back up on the Marmot - and that route is on my list. I onsighted Marauder, Dead On the Shoulder and Marmot with a Hand Grenade last time. Love it up there!
-
Clint and I were at the Pinns in the rain and wind on Wednesday doing some rebolting. Here's a bit of a report.
Sister Spire - we replaced the protection bolt on the 5.6 route and replaced the rappel bolts on top. As a bit of a warning, the two Star Dryvins which comprised the lone protection bolt and one of the bolts in the anchor were installed improperly in that the sleeves, which facilitate pull-out strength, were under the hanger and not on top(bad, very bad). Only the force holding in the nail was keeping those bolts in place.
As an aside, the two hangers were drilled for 1/4" which is the same diameter of the nail. You need a 3/8" hanger to properly install a 3/8" Star Dryvin.
One important note on the new rappel anchor. Because you can approach this climb from both the west and north we had to try and make the direction of the rappel anchor accommodate both scenarios. Those who want to rap off to the west are advised to wrap into the 5.2 approach gully and continue the
rappel in that direction. It is not advised to rappel directly west off the anchor.
Third Sister - we replaced two of the three protection bolts (the first bolt was a plated Rawl 5-piece) and installed a new rappel anchor. Unfortunately, somebody had already replaced the two anchor bolts with nice 5-piece Rawls, but they put the bolts too far back from the top of the pinnacle to make a very useable rappel anchor. We also removed four 1/4" rawl stud bolts (no hangers) which were probably from the original ascent.
Monolith Northeast Corner - we replaced Mark Powell's bolted piton, the only protection bolt on this route.
All new bolts are 3/8"x3.5" Stainless Steel Powers 5-piece bolts.
-
Monolith Northeast Corner - we replaced Mark Powell's bolted piton, the only protection bolt on this route.
Can you elaborate on this unique piece please?
-
Munge,
see Reply #41 in this thread for a photo of the bolted piton which is a Stubai knifeblade style piton with a 3/8" hole drilled in it to accept a bolt which in this case was a very short 3/8" Star Dryvin.
-
Sorry, let me be more clear. Was the piton re-used as the hanger, or was both the bolt and hanger itself replaced?
If it was not re-used, why not?
-
(http://www.stanford.edu/%7Eclint/pin/marmot_reg.gif)
This is an updated topo showing the bolts now in place after Bruce and I did the replacement on 1/16/2013.
-
Rob,
> Was the piton re-used as the hanger, or was both the bolt and hanger itself replaced?
The piton was not re-used - new stainless bolt and hanger.
> If it was not re-used, why not?
I thought about using it, but I was concerned someone might think it was a valuable relic and take it.
-
Where is it now, and where is it going?
Sorry, not to be an arse, but it was a unique piece, and much like the garbage handle on Twinkle Toes, there are a lot of us that like clipping those unique pieces.
-
"Unfortunately, somebody had already replaced the two anchor bolts with nice 5-piece Rawls, but they put the bolts too far back from the top of the pinnacle to make a very useable rappel anchor."
I replaced the three manky belay bolts almost two years ago with stainless 5 piece. Those were the ones you pulled Bruce. Goal was to stay in the existing holes. Rap wasn't too bad. Good that you re-drilled in a better location with longer bolt.
-
Over the holiday break and more recently I spent some time at Yaks Wall doing bolt replacement. First with my brother Bill and then solo (55 lb pack ugh). Bill was a great sport hanging out on top for hours on the first day while I went at it out of sight below below.
Shoot the Tube: placed two new 3.5" x 3/8" 5 piece stainless with Fixe ring hangers; replaced two 1/4" rawls with leeper hangers and two 3/8 rawl split shafts - all with 1/2" 5 piece stainless. I extracted the poison oak (pulling as much of the roots as possible) that had re-established itself in the upper chimney - should be good for another 25 to 30 years now. Also I added one new bolt approximately half way between bolt number four and the top, so it's now a bit more sane for leaders.
(Footnote - I was the lucky one to get the very first lead onsite in February 1984, placing the original three bolts free stance, ending after dark and rappelling off the slung chockstone at the top with my last two slings tied together. Since it was a 45 meter rope, down climbing blind from above the first bolt to the ground was required. Our hike out, well after dark with no lights, was quite the adventure - multiple attempts trying to get down the slabs, eventually brush crashing all the way down the hillside from the saddle by Marmot Rocks to the rangers cabin. Back to the car near midnight.) I added a forth bolt a year or so later - on lead.
Dance on a Volcano: replaced the two belay bolts (3/8" split shafts) and six bolts in field (three 1/4", three 3/8" split shafts) with 1/2" 5 piece stainless and chains on the belay. Second bolt was moved down approximately 16" and slightly right to much better rock (a bit less ground fall potential when trying to clip too).
Split Infinity: replaced the two 3/8" split shaft belay bolts and five bolts (four 3/8" split shafts, one 1/4") in the field with 1/2" stainless 5 piece and chains on the belay.
It's been years since I've done Shoot the Tube. I will definitely be back on it next season.
Enjoy!!! Thanks to ASCA for the replacement bolts and hangers.
-
"Unfortunately, somebody had already replaced the two anchor bolts with nice 5-piece Rawls, but they put the bolts too far back from the top of the pinnacle to make a very useable rappel anchor."
I replaced the three manky belay bolts almost two years ago with stainless 5 piece. Those were the ones you pulled Bruce. Goal was to stay in the existing holes. Rap wasn't too bad. Good that you re-drilled in a better location with longer bolt.
I pulled off all the webbing and rings off the bolts you placed, Jim, but left them in place. I added two new bolts about 5 feet further south where the rock was better at the edge so the anchors could be closer to the lip. Even doing that, I used 7 links of 3/8" chain on each bolt to get the rope as close to the edge as possible for an easy pull.
-
Where is it now, and where is it going?
Sorry, not to be an arse, but it was a unique piece, and much like the garbage handle on Twinkle Toes, there are a lot of us that like clipping those unique pieces.
When Sam Davidson was with the Access Fund(AF) he encouraged me to send the really historic stuff to the AF so they could mount it on a wood plaque and sell it at a fundraising auction. When we rebolted the Hand in 1997 I sent all that hardware to the AF and they promptly did nothing with it until they were cleaning out their offices and offered it to Gary Neptune and Marty Karabin for a song.
So, the stuff we replace gets tagged and sits in several boxes in my garage. I have offered some of it to the Park Service for their historical displays and also to some of the FA teams if they want it for their collection/memories.
BTW, to add what Clint said the piton/bolt in question was a very old(1950's) Star Dryvin that was1-1/4" deep. Clint popped it out by putting a crow bar behind it and viola. While you, and a few others, might like to clip that bolt my guess is that there are way more climbers who would rather clip something which would actually hold a fall.
-
I want to clip the hanger (not the old bolt, though I did that too). :)
that's unfortunate that the AF didn't do anything useful with it.
Seems like with all the really good pieces you guys have thankfully replaced, that a nice display box of bolts and breaking strengths and problems and history could be made.
Well, if we end up auctioning that one off, I best get an invite to the auction. ;)
thx Bruce!
-
BTW, to add what Clint said the piton/bolt in question was a very old(1950's) Star Dryvin that was1-1/4" deep. Clint popped it out by putting a crow bar behind it and viola. While you, and a few others, might like to clip that bolt my guess is that there are way more climbers who would rather clip something which would actually hold a fall.
I am one of those climbers - the one who posted the pic and clipped that relic for nothing more than shits and giggles.
I knew I did not want to fall on it. Knowing the truth brings back a little shiver. I knew the beefy anchor would hold if I did fall but that would have been a long way down past my belayer. I wasn't sure it would ever be replaced since you have to lead something significantly harder just to get to that corner anchor.
-
Shoot the Tube: (Footnote - I was the lucky one to get the very first lead onsite in February 1984, placing the original three bolts free stance, ending after dark and rappelling off the slung chockstone at the top with my last two slings tied together. Since it was a 45 meter rope, down climbing blind from above the first bolt to the ground was required. Our hike out, well after dark with no lights, was quite the adventure - multiple attempts trying to get down the slabs, eventually brush crashing all the way down the hillside from the saddle by Marmot Rocks to the rangers cabin. Back to the car near midnight.) I added a forth bolt a year or so later - on lead.
Sounds like a cool route Jim and the backstory is great.
Thanks for all the hard work!
Now I just need to up my game...
-
This is an updated topo showing the bolts now in place after Bruce and I did the replacement on 1/16/2013.
Thanks for the topo Bruce.
I'm one of the climbers who will actually go up and do this route.
-
Over the holiday break and more recently I spent some time at Yaks Wall doing bolt replacement. First with my brother Bill and then solo (55 lb pack ugh). Bill was a great sport hanging out on top for hours on the first day while I went at it out of sight below below.
It's been years since I've done Shoot the Tube. I will definitely be back on it next season.
Enjoy!!! Thanks to ASCA for the replacement bolts and hangers.
Jim, awesome work. I've been wanting to get on Split Infinity (and Dance On A Volcano) and will definitely do so next season, and get back on Shoot The Tube to try out the rebolted experience. The Yaks deserve a lot more traffic than they get.
-
In the future would it be possible to leave the original historic piece in place then put a new piece next to it? I to really like to see some of the old fun stuff. Kind of a bummer that it is all fading away.
-
Jim
thanks for replacing the bolts on Shoot The Tube that is a really good route. Same goes for Split Infinity.
For those that have not done Shoot the Tube get on it when it opens. It is definitely worth doing.
-
In the future would it be possible to leave the original historic piece in place then put a new piece next to it? I to really like to see some of the old fun stuff. Kind of a bummer that it is all fading away.
Clint and I take rebolting and preserving as much of the history very seriously. We discussed the option of leaving the old bolt in place, but decided against it for several reasons most notably that once the new bolt was in place that didn't insure that somebody wouldn't see the old bolt as unnecessary and remove it.
Sure, we could have re-used the bolted piton as the hanger, but again, someone might have unscrewed the bolt and replaced it. And do you really want the only protection on the climb to be a hanger that is soft steel, not designed for the given use, and over 60 years old?
Sometimes you have to make hard decisions that won't please everybody. It is a lot of work to do rebolting and we want our efforts to be the best solution for many years to come, not just the next five or ten years. To that end it is important to use the best materials available so someone isn't out there replacing our stuff in the next decade.
-
New bolts are great..shiny ones too. To heck with the historical value.
Jim once told me that bolts were hard to come by back then and they used that they could. Scary to think years later they are still in place and folks clip them.
It's great to see Jim going back and cleaning up his routes. Maybe even adding one or two? I won't argue... ;D
-
is soft steel, not designed for the given use, and over 60 years old?
only the best for the mud and crudders!!
-
What???
It's a great line. That bolt is just fine....
Uh huh...
-
New bolts are great..shiny ones too. To heck with the historical value.
Yep...wonder which version is the real F4
-
....... I extracted the poison oak (pulling as much of the roots as possible) that had re-established itself in the upper chimney - should be good for another 25 to 30 years now.
Jim,
you are a saint!!!!
-
New bolts are great..shiny ones too. To heck with the historical value.
Jim once told me that bolts were hard to come by back then and they used that they could. Scary to think years later they are still in place and folks clip them.
It's great to see Jim going back and cleaning up his routes. Maybe even adding one or two? I won't argue... ;D
No doubt Bruce. PO work is the realm of the angels!
F4, what part of I added a forth bolt a year or so later - on lead.
did you not pick up on? ;)
-
Clint and I take rebolting and preserving as much of the history very seriously. We discussed the option of leaving the old bolt in place, but decided against it for several reasons most notably that once the new bolt was in place that didn't insure that somebody wouldn't see the old bolt as unnecessary and remove it.
Sure, we could have re-used the bolted piton as the hanger, but again, someone might have unscrewed the bolt and replaced it. And do you really want the only protection on the climb to be a hanger that is soft steel, not designed for the given use, and over 60 years old?
Sometimes you have to make hard decisions that won't please everybody. It is a lot of work to do rebolting and we want our efforts to be the best solution for many years to come, not just the next five or ten years. To that end it is important to use the best materials available so someone isn't out there replacing our stuff in the next decade.
Bruce,
I admire the work that you and Clint do and I think the two of you about are about the best there is. I agree that not having the pin as a hanger is a good idea. Just thought have the old piece in parallel would be nice. Does this mean we are going to go and remove all the old historical pieces because someone might take them? Well on the bright side hopefully this will inspire folks to go about and put some new fun creative pieces out there.
-
new fun creative pieces out there
bingo, first thing I thought too!
what would be a sweet piece to bolt (as pro/supplement to pro)?
-
Bruce,
I admire the work that you and Clint do and I think the two of you about are about the best there is. I agree that not having the pin as a hanger is a good idea. Just thought have the old piece in parallel would be nice. Does this mean we are going to go and remove all the old historical pieces because someone might take them? Well on the bright side hopefully this will inspire folks to go about and put some new fun creative pieces out there.
Nope. When it is appropriate and safe we leave the history in place. A good example is The Shaft. I replaced all the bolts in the bolt ladder except the 2nd to last one which is a 1/4" Rawl split shaft with a Lost Arrow as a hanger. Another example is the north ridge of the Fourth Sister. The crux is right at the start and is protected by a nice, new bolt. The second bolt which is just above is an old Star Dryvin with a classic Longware hanger. I didn't replace that one as it is a nice slice of history.
It's always a judgement call. Both Clint and I have a very healthy respect for history and we try to preserve it when it seems appropriate.
-
Nope. When it is appropriate and safe we leave the history in place. A good example is The Shaft. I replaced all the bolts in the bolt ladder except the 2nd to last one which is a 1/4" Rawl split shaft with a Lost Arrow as a hanger. Another example is the north ridge of the Fourth Sister. The crux is right at the start and is protected by a nice, new bolt. The second bolt which is just above is an old Star Dryvin with a classic Longware hanger. I didn't replace that one as it is a nice slice of history.
It's always a judgement call. Both Clint and I have a very healthy respect for history and we try to preserve it when it seems appropriate.
Ok, noted and thank you for the work. Really impressed with how much you guys get out.
-
I'm free on Fridays if you ever want an extra hand and are willing to school me.
JC,
Thanks for the offer! Currently we are heading up there mid-week, but will let you know if that changes.
-
BTW, I should have mentioned earlier that the bolts and hangers Clint and I use during rebolting are supplied by the ASCA (www.safeclimbing.org (http://www.safeclimbing.org)). They appreciate your support!
-
Clint and I were rebolting on the west side yesterday. We replaced the 2nd, 3rd and 4th protection bolts on the first pitch of Alias Bandit Bench(I had replaced the 1st bolt back in 2006). Clint found the hardest rock ever at the Pinnacles to add a second stainless steel bolt to the anchor on top of the first pitch. 2+ hours to drill a 3.5" x 3/8" hole! We added 3/8" quick links and 3/8" chain to the anchor for rappel. We also replaced the 1st and 2nd bolts on the True Grit variation and put a SS Petzl hanger on the 3rd bolt.
It appears that sometime in the past somebody replaced the last(4th -pitch 1, 3rd-pitch 2) bolts on each of these pitches with 3.5" x3/8" Rawl Split shafts.
We climbed the second pitch of Alias Bandit Bench (going climbers left) and replaced all the thin SMC plated hangers with either SS SMC hangers, SS Petzl hangers or Leepers. There were just too many bolts on that pitch and we ran out of SS hangers, but the bolts are so close together it shouldn't matter.
BTW, Lucky 13 looks to be established with a power drill. There is no way a sane person would drill that many bolts so close together on the easy terrain of pitch 2 by hand.
Lastly, Clint replaced the two Star Dryvin bolts at the belay for pitch 2 of Machete Direct.
All in all, either via rebolting or replacing suspect hangers we swapped out 10 of the thin SMC hangers for either SS or Leeper.
-
Clint and I were rebolting on the west side yesterday. We replaced the 2nd, 3rd and 4th protection bolts on the first pitch of Alias Bandit Bench(I had replaced the 1st bolt back in 2006). Clint found the hardest rock ever at the Pinnacles to add a second stainless steel bolt to the anchor on top of the first pitch. 2+ hours to drill a 3.5" x 3/8" hole! We added 3/8" quick links and 3/8" chain to the anchor for rappel. We also replaced the 1st and 2nd bolts on the True Grit variation and put a SS Petzl hanger on the 3rd bolt.
It appears that sometime in the past somebody replaced the last(4th -pitch 1, 3rd-pitch 2) bolts on each of these pitches with 3.5" x3/8" Rawl Split shafts.
We climbed the second pitch of Alias Bandit Bench (going climbers left) and replaced all the thin SMC plated hangers with either SS SMC hangers, SS Petzl hangers or Leepers. There were just too many bolts on that pitch and we ran out of SS hangers, but the bolts are so close together it shouldn't matter.
BTW, Lucky 13 looks to be established with a power drill. There is no way a sane person would drill that many bolts so close together on the easy terrain of pitch 2 by hand.
Lastly, Clint replaced the two Star Dryvin bolts at the belay for pitch 2 of Machete Direct.
All in all, either via rebolting or replacing suspect hangers we swapped out 10 of the thin SMC hangers for either SS or Leeper.
You guys are on Fire! I definitely won't miss those first pitch bolts on ABB. The 2nd pitch never bothered me much since there are so many bolts and the climbing is so easy. It is good to know that there's something sturdier there now though. Really glad that you got that anchor done - I did not like those SMC death hangers and one of the bolts was flexing in its hole. I will definitely have to get back up there and do True Grit.
-
Bruce,
Any chance you and Clint can rebolt Perigrine next year when it opens? Not all the bolts would need to be replaced perhaps just every third one. The second pitch is kinda sketch as a lead the way it is.
-
Bruce,
Any chance you and Clint can rebolt Perigrine next year when it opens? Not all the bolts would need to be replaced perhaps just every third one. The second pitch is kinda sketch as a lead the way it is.
Clint has tried to talk to me into doing this as a project several times over the years. So far there have been other objectives which I was more inclined to do. We'll have to see.
-
Clint has tried to talk to me into doing this as a project several times over the years. So far there have been other objectives which I was more inclined to do. We'll have to see.
Ok, cool. Well keep it in the back of you mind. I would be will to buy La Costenia burritos. Just need enough bolts to keep the leader off the belayer in case of a fall. I am talking free not aid.
-
On Hummingbird Spire yesterday there was one replaced bolt with one chain and an old bolt with webbing threaded through the chain - resulting in a rappel from a single link.
We removed the old webbing and put on a new piece equalized with the end of the chain.
Obviously not the right solution but it was all we had.
The old bolt is tight with an angle iron hanger.
My suggestion would be to add a screwlink and enough links of chain (not sure how many?) to the old bolt to equalize this anchor. The screwlink on the replaced bolt is smaller than 3/8"
Even better would be to replace the old bolt. RB shows 2002 on Buckwheats Bender but there is no mention of the anchor. Maybe the rebolter didn't have enough materials that day?
-
Clint and I were rebolting at the Pinnacles on Wednesday. We removed the two old bolts on top of Hummingbird Spire and added a second anchor bolt(3.5x3/8" SS Rawl). The other bolt is a 3"x3/8" plated Rawl but it is looking very good and should last a long, long time. We added chain and a quick link to the new bolt. You can rappel in either direction from the anchor.
We then went over to Toogs. We replaced the three protection bolts on Toog's Alligator and also on Toog's Tarbaby. Two of the bolts on the Alligator were in highly suspect rock so they were moved to better rock. It is worth noting that there is a lot of poison oak on the second pitch of Alligator both in the start to the Alligator chimney and also the easy chimney section below it.
We then went over to Toogs Gallery and replaced all the bolts except the first one(3/8" Rawl Split shaft on which we put a nice, new hanger). A bunch of the bolts on this climb were 1/4" x 3" red head type bolts in which a cone gets pushed up into the end of the shaft when you pound the bolt in.
Clint was 'en fuego' with the crowbar and tuning forks on both Toog's and Hummingbird.
I am promoting Chuck RIchards to the official "Dirt Bag" climber status. The majority of the bolts he put in at the Pinnacles are a total abomination. Back in the early 70's when he did the majority of his routes, 3/8" Star Dryvins and Leeper, etc. hangers were the norm. Richards, and his crew for that matter, used a lot of 1/4" x 1" Rawl split shafts with home made hangers. Not only were the bolts completely substandard for the Pinnacles at the time, but many of the home made hangers were just aluminum L-bar stock which was cut and drilled. No heat treatment. No nothing. Of course, given the crappy bolts one could argue that the hangers were appropriate, but....
Thanks to the ASCA(www.safeclimbing.org (http://www.safeclimbing.org)) for providing the bolts and hangers. They appreciate your support.
-
Wow nice. Bruce thanks to you and clint for the work here. MUCH appreciated
-
Clint and I were rebolting at the Pinnacles on Wednesday. Hummingbird Spire added a second anchor bolt, added chain and a quick link to the new bolt. You can rappel in either direction from the anchor.
We then went over to Toogs. We replaced the three protection bolts on Toog's Alligator and also on Toog's Tarbaby. It is worth noting that there is a lot of poison oak on the second pitch of Alligator both in the start to the Alligator chimney and also the easy chimney section below it.
We then went over to Toogs Gallery and replaced all the bolts except the first one
I am promoting Chuck Richards to the official "Dirt Bag" climber status.
WOW!!! You guys are amazing - I never expected to see the Hummingbird work done so quickly.
Brad had talked about working on Toog's with me this season but it looks like that will be unnecessary now - thanks!
I'll never forget linking the first two pitches on the Gallery and reaching that POS anchor - now all but a memory and some pics.
I did suspect some PO on Alligator after looking down as we traversed across the top of the chimney while onsighting the Gallery. Thanks for that heads up as I have been meaning to go back there and do that route.
If you want another Richards climb to add to the list we did Lonely Sheepherder on Goat Rock on 1-11-13 and almost all those bolts appear to be garbage. The first one has the type of aluminum hanger you described. I intend to head back up there this summer when it dries out and the closures are lifted.
-
Muds, what about making Bruce a mod, so he can update a master list of the updates? That way they can all be in one spot?
I can do it, but I'll be behind the times at the rate of replacement these guys are firing on!! Thanks guys!
-
That plated bolt on Humming bird spire is my addition, many years ago. Lars Johnson and partner had the week before climbed Lars's Buckweats bender, and they rappelled off of the crap anchor. He told me to go up there and add another one. As to the orientation, I placed it that way to facilitate equalizing the bolt toward the gap, for a retreat down the original route.
This was the first rebolting effort I had made up and till that point I believe. It sparked me to contact ASCA and get the hardware and start making a difference.
Thanks for cleaning up the mess!
And
Thanks again for all of the hard work B+C!!!
-
Thanks for cleaning up the mess!
what mess? Sounds like you made it safe to get off the thing. I rapped off those crusty old things a long time ago. Glad to more recently have rapped off the plated addition!
"The other bolt is a 3"x3/8" plated Rawl but it is looking very good and should last a long, long time"
-
Muds, what about making Bruce a mod, so he can update a master list of the updates? That way they can all be in one spot?
I can do it, but I'll be behind the times at the rate of replacement these guys are firing on!! Thanks guys!
ok
-
Bruce/Clint your mods so you can update/change this thread as you wish.
-
Tourist Trap and Discovery Wall
I discovered these sub standard screwlinks and aluminum rings at the pitch 1 anchor for Pastie/Thrill Hammer. It's my understanding that the aluminum rings should be doubled or replaced with SS rings. Most people probably don't rappel from here - maybe these screwlinks and rings should just be removed? I'm probably going back up there Friday.
I also noticed and clipped an old bolt and hanger on Entrance. The climb is listed as having two bolts but only one is shown on the topo - and that one is good. This one is on the big ledge before/below the crux bulge. Probably not a high priority since it occurs to me that the entire climb could be done on gear alone.
-
Bruce/Clint your mods so you can update/change this thread as you wish.
1st Mungie. now Bruce and Clint...what about me?
PS, the aluminum rings are fine..for now.
-
PS, the aluminum rings are fine..for now.
Factor - no offense but you always say everything is fine - then Bruce and Clint go rebolt it!
Given the amount of traffic TT sees and the plethora of bozos that toprope there on a regular basis - the last thing we need is someone having an accident because of those aluminum rings. I can just see a big group doing something stupid like toproping directly off the anchor and wearing through them - or weakening them for the next unsuspecting/unaware party of newbie know nothings. I think they should either be replaced or removed - we'll be the ones who "pay" if something bad happens.
-
The day F4 gets mod permission is the day I go back to thinking RC.com is a good site.
-
Come on Mr Mud...squiddo will go back to RC.com....
-
Lol
-
JC, if you going back is probably good to clean that up. If you could replace the rings with two screw gates per bolt that would be great.
-
agree with mr. mud. Single rap ring of that style is substandard, and not meant for toproping through, but invariably someone ends up doing just that. Replacing the rings would be ideal. Camouflaged if at all possible with some paint. Shiny metal might be visible from the parking lot.
-
JC, if you going back is probably good to clean that up. If you could replace the rings with two screw gates per bolt that would be great.
agree with mr. mud. Single rap ring of that style is substandard, and not meant for toproping through, but invariably someone ends up doing just that. Replacing the rings would be ideal. Camouflaged if at all possible with some paint. Shiny metal might be visible from the parking lot.
10-4 - thanks for the feedback guys.
-
Has anybody taken a look at the bolts on POD recently? I was pretty disgusted with the amount of corrosion on those things. Pretty standard incompatible carbon steel bolts and stainless hangers. It might be time to upgrade that thing. I propose 4 inch glue ins.
-
I would just add a fat omega rap ring to each link, and locktight the threads.
Done.
OR I have some ASCA SS 3/8ths links, and some chain could be added?
I am a big fan of what clint et all do on new route rappel stations. Sections of SS chain with SS link. They cut the chain in different lengths to accomodate for weird bolting patterns.
Very slick.
-
Wow, really Atom? I remember when they were replaced...or were they?
That would be a sweet upgrade.
The Q is SS Glue-In or Rawl 5-P
Yeah, folks would lower through a glue-in.
Karl once suggested to use a SS threaded stock and then you could swap out the hanger.
-
F4, why the fuk would you use mere threaded stock on a free climb, much less one that receives falls and traffic?
F4, do you know what threaded stock is? I'm suspecting you are misquoting Karl or leaving some explanation out.
-
I doubt you would see many people lowering off bolts on POD. After all it is only 10d....
-
Sigh...so it's a bad choice of my words saying threaded stock...sheesh.
Karl's suggestion which has stuck in my mind ....was to glue in the stud (stainless) that's threaded, then the hanger could be replaced. Replacing a glue in is ugly as they usually cut the bolt off and drill a new hole next to it. Try doing that with a hacksaw....not! In Europe or a non National Park replacement would be easy as you could use power tools.
Go to Mickeys Beach....you will see a line of bolt holes..ugly.
Hasn't Feed the B and Cantalope Death had glue-ins for about 10yrs??
Yeah, who falls on POD..no me.
-
I like the threaded rod idea.
Its not too hard to cut a gluein off with a handheld hacksaw blade, surprisingly soft in my mind. Which leaves doubt about what a rope would do, especially in a sandy area like redrocks. But POD doesn't have any sandy surfaces around where ropes would be handled.
Greg Barnes was concerned about creating a public that thinks the glueins are the only safe bolts.
-
No threaded rod stock!!!!!
-
Threaded rod stock is not an evil in itself. You just need to find some that is forged in the proper way and is the same grade metal as the bolt hanger/hardware.
They seem to think threaded rod is OK at the ASCA.
http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/adhesivebolts.htm (http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/adhesivebolts.htm)
-
made for use with glue
[/b]
not the shite at the hardware store
-
not the shite at the hardware store
Depends on the HW store...no?
I know your local HW store next to where you live sells Powers SS...
-
that's not a HW store. That's a fastener and building supply company.
-
1/4" x 1.5" ZMACK rivet it is then....
Pansies ;)
-
that's not a HW store. That's a fastener and building supply company.
But they sell...dare I say it...hardware??
-
Not all threads are created equal. Anything with threads such as wedge bolts and threaded bar stock should have 'rolled' threads and not 'cut' threads. If you don't know the difference between the two types of threads you shouldn't be using wedge bolts or threaded rod for bolting.
-
Chris Sharma uses bolts with cut threads on his routes... why cant we!!!
-
because Sharma has been banned.
-
because Sharma has been banned.
Bans to effect sharma. He mocks you.
-
Sharma will be here next week. Time to check out the Leaning Tower 5.15.
-
Nice
-
Okay, I'll go down to Mungie's HW store and see what they have for Adhesive bolts....
-
Bans to effect sharma. He mocks you.
Not high enough on the radar to be mocked.
-
You can make all the fun you want about the difference between 'rolled' and 'cut' threads, but if you care about the longevity and the safety of the routes you put up you should be using bolts with "rolled" threads in the area where the bolt is is loaded. This is really critical for wedge bolts, but not as critical for bolts such as the Powers 5-piece.
Here are a couple of many references about the subject:
http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/35903/Thread-cutting-vs-Thread-rolling (http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/35903/Thread-cutting-vs-Thread-rolling)
http://www.3si.org/forum/f42/any-metallurgists-out-there-want-explain-why-rolled-threads-better-than-cut-326274/ (http://www.3si.org/forum/f42/any-metallurgists-out-there-want-explain-why-rolled-threads-better-than-cut-326274/)
-
I had never even heard of that Bruce.
Nice to know someone so knowledgeable is watching out for us and doing some fine work.
-
Thx Bruce! Really insightful information!
I'll check it later for any references to testing the stress fractures that might occur.
Regardless, rolled is the way to go. I think that is what Fixe uses for their wedges, but I suspect hardware studs are more likely to be cut.
Does that sound right Bruce?
-
Munge,
it varies, but it is cheaper to produce bolts with "cut" threads. It is probably best to avoid anything from your local hardware store and only order from trusted suppliers like Fixe. Alternatively, if you know exactly what you want and are certain of the design you can buy in bulk from people like McMasters-Carr.
-
I climbed yesterday on Rumbling Rampart. I realize this is a fairly obscure route that has no stars but I would still recommend it to someone starting to lead. It has some fun and committing moves and is well protected. The FA was 1993, so the hardware is almost 20 years old. I am not familiar with the time standards, but I can only assume that since they are rusty - the bolts/nuts must not be stainless. Bolt 3 looks suspicious. I think it was bolt 5 that has a nut showing a little rust. One of the two anchor bolts is definitely substandard size.
-
Yes, that last bolt is definitely either a 1/4" or 5/16" wedge bolt. I definitely would not recommend that type or size of bolt at the Pinnacles. My guess is that bolt #3 is also a 5/16" wedge bolt.
-
There is a single, old bolt anchor for the belay for pitch one of Lost Horizons. Luckily there is also body position and I socked in a nut and an alien and equalized them in a small crack behind me. There is a real potential for a follower to fall on the traverse leading to this anchor and take a decent swing - although a large knob serves as a directional for the rope a few feet out from the anchor.
Looks like someone bashed/smashed the hell out of this bolt/stud and the homemade hanger is loose. FA 1976
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fB6Onp5tBVMBiJY2FZzqeWIy5-PzSvStOOKk0RRuVHDlSnIaSD0nZPWQECoPJhU6xWFHA4vBGTc5PYJRsN0RJWSkOb_bnt1QirfQtreT6yynAtq4XEk2TXqKP8fgC8W50WdOMM_3FhYS_MMsH_23Gy=w587-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
Looks like a beyer bolt and hanger.
-
Nope. That's a genuine Barbella hanger. You younguns just don't realize what a bomber bolt was back in those days.
-
Nope. That's a genuine Barbella hanger. You younguns just don't realize what a bomber bolt was back in those days.
Is this is the same Jim that used to post under his full name? I think so.
Didn't you and John and crew deliberately smash over the top threads of those bolts to prevent hanger theft?
-
I stand corrected by Jim.
Who can argue.
-
Nope. That's a genuine Barbella hanger. You younguns just don't realize what a bomber bolt was back in those days.
I get it - it's a piece of Pinnacles history but what I saw was a piece of old angle iron cut with a hacksaw and hand drilled close to the edges - not to mention the looseness.
Maybe a modern bolt could be added somewhere close to it as a backup - although anyone that does this route will have a rack and can build a backup as I did.
-
I don't see any mention of The Hideout rebolt anywhere on any of the threads or links - it has indeed been rebolted.
-
Clint and I were rebolting on the west side yesterday. We replaced the 2nd, 3rd and 4th protection bolts on the first pitch of Alias Bandit Bench. Clint found the hardest rock ever at the Pinnacles to add a second stainless steel bolt to the anchor on top of the first pitch. We also replaced the 1st and 2nd bolts on the True Grit variation and put a SS Petzl hanger on the 3rd bolt.
I clipped and thoroughly enjoyed all these replacements yesterday - thanks again!
The new anchor is especially nice.
Too bad some bozo stole the screwlinks from the p2 anchor on Twinkle Toes - what is wrong with people?!
Not to worry - it gave me a chance to practice my improv skills - see my TR and the giant lodestone.
-
I clipped and thoroughly enjoyed all these replacements yesterday - thanks again!
The new anchor is especially nice.
Too bad some bozo stole the screwlinks from the p2 anchor on Twinkle Toes - what is wrong with people?!
Not to worry - it gave me a chance to practice my improv skills - see my TR and the giant lodestone.
Just goes to show what happens when there is a screw loose (a screw in the "brain" of the buttwipe who stole it that is).
-
Just goes to show what happens when there is a screw loose (a screw in the "brain" of the buttwipe who stole it that is).
Yes - they really saved some coin on that one - considering I can get 3/8 screwlinks at Pac Edge for just under $3 - plus if that same person was the one that left the webbing and piece of cordalette - they ended up saving about 2 or 3 bucks!
I forgot to mention in my TR that we saw a loooong strand of bright colored webbing on the bolt below the overlap on Beyond Destiny - someone must have bailed. KC and I are planning to take a newb out that way in a few weeks - if it is still there I'll get up there and clean it.
-
It would be good to get the original story on this route.
to your request... Adding a belay midway through a route (by doubling a pro bolt) has not been viewed favorably by folks I've talked to. The argument is that it changes the character of the route and original FA.
-
EDIT: I'm leaving this post on here, although the post to which it replied is gone now (the author thought better of it and removed it).
Let's not. Adding a bolt is adding a bolt, not replacing one.
Adding bolts to other people's routes is considered really, really bad. The argument that it makes the route "better" or "easier" will, if accepted in the future, lead to most of the routes in Pinnacles getting added bolts, being way dumbed down, and made very milk-toast and adventureless.
I've often thought that some upcoming generation of gym-raised climbers will do something like this in the name of safety above all. Safety must come first (it'll have to happen after I'm dead though, since added bolts won't stay long until then). And then someone like Adam comes along - a full generation younger than me - who restores my faith in Pinnacles climbers loving the rock and loving adventure.
-
These are rusty smash links on top of Papa Bear 8-30-13. RB by FOP 2003. Everything else on the anchor looks good.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f9scvsXZugTkkse-fxBcs6ZWCwNp8ihbKlMfM2TJMWfhZJDnRI-RNZYoXFKmaFHsLzGjIj9_2M33-DF7ZUynVQGQepkQSeiBQ9-vmFum0WQAqzeIrpict4aG93D36_WwMzMw9gi6KVUvnsBUBnTveX=w400-h363-no?authuser=0)
Not sure how long these pieces are safe once corrosion sets in. Input is appreciated.
The protection bolts and hangers could also stand to be replaced on both routes - The Original Route - 1 bolt (1968), April Fool's Route 2 bolts (1976).
-
Thundering Herd - bolt 1 is a homemade steel hanger with tight bolt - both are rusted. The remaining 3 bolts are all 1/4" studs with homemade aluminum hangers. The bolts are heavily rusted. Hangers on bolts 2 and 3 are loose. I don't recall whether or not bolt 4 was loose (it probably was) - I didn't pay as much attention to it since it was in what I perceived as the class 3 part of the route and I hadn't expected another bolt since only three are listed in the guidebook. I can see how it could easily be missed. I did miss bolt 2 and was slightly above it trying to read the route when I looked down and saw it. I downclimbed a move or two and clipped it - garbage that it was. I realize this route is probably low priority, so maybe this comment can serve as a warning to anyone that wants to try the route. FA 1972 - Steve Chidester and Chuck Richards.
My hoodwires wouldn't fit through the aluminum hanger holes (guess I should have learned from Toog's and munge's warning).
-
These are the rusty smash links on top of Papa Bear 8-30-13. RB by FOP 2003. Everything else on the anchor looks good.
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/JCwKCredux/IMG_0386anchorswrustysmashlinks_zpse5e37720.jpg) (http://s1057.photobucket.com/user/JCwKCredux/media/IMG_0386anchorswrustysmashlinks_zpse5e37720.jpg.html)
Not sure how long these pieces are safe once corrosion sets in. Input is appreciated.
The protection bolts and hangers could also stand to be replaced on both routes - The Original Route - 1 bolt (1968), April Fool's Route 2 bolts (1976).
JC, just back from Boulder, CO where my basement flooded not once, but twice during last month's floods.
A bit of history about the smash links..... In the earl y 90's I climbed a lot of routes in the Pinns with the purpose to replace old webbing with new webbing and welded steel rings. I choose to use the welded rings rather than the aluminum SMC rap rings available at that time because people seem to be taking the SMC rings as booty.
When I went back and re-climbed the routes I put the the welded rings on, they were gone! When I began my rebolting campaign at the Pinns in the mid-90's I was tired of seeing the hardware I paid for and lugged up to the crags being taken by dirtbag climbers. So, rather than use quick links, I decided to use smash links to give a better guarantee that the hardware didn't disappear. I have seen a number of those same smash links on other routes at the Pinns which have rusted, but be assured that it is only surface rust and should not be a safety issue.
These days, now that the ASCA has stepped in to provide hardware I am using quick links with the chain.
-
I clipped and thoroughly enjoyed all these replacements yesterday - thanks again!
The new anchor is especially nice.
Too bad some bozo stole the screwlinks from the p2 anchor on Twinkle Toes - what is wrong with people?!
Not to worry - it gave me a chance to practice my improv skills - see my TR and the giant lodestone.
JC,
just wondering what you used those quick links for at the top of P2 of Twinkle Toes? I don't think that is the original P2 belay. It is pretty cramped. I usually just go over the anchor of Bandits in Bondage.
-
I have seen a number of those same smash links on other routes at the Pinns which have rusted, but be assured that it is only surface rust and should not be a safety issue.
Good to know Bruce - thanks.
-
JC,
just wondering what you used those quick links for at the top of P2 of Twinkle Toes? I don't think that is the original P2 belay. It is pretty cramped. I usually just go over the anchor of Bandits in Bondage.
Bruce - with the screwlinks we've done a diagonal rappel back down Twinkle Toes p2 to the p1 rap station. It puts you back down at the bottom of Destiny wall quicker and there is no PO around the base - plus it can be done with 1 rope. BIB takes 2 ropes and there is some scattered PO around the base and growing on the last part of the cliff. The other way I have gotten down from there is to rap back down True Grit to the lodestone, traverse below BMM and then rap from the Lucky 13 anchor. You can also scramble over the top of BMM and do two raps down those stations(starting at 800xx) - just a bit of scattered PO around the base on that one.
-
dam I have lost it. Know idea what you are talking about.
going to go cry in my beer.
-
dam I have lost it. Know idea what you are talking about.
going to go cry in my beer.
Go to my thread Tis the season for conundrums and thieves...that's where I mentioned someone stealing the screwlinks from the P2 Twinkle Toes belay. I was just talking about the various ways you can get down from the top of True Grit - that day I was trying to save some time. It was actually fun getting down the way I describe in the thread. The lodestone is bomber and Lucky's new anchor gets you a good back scratching :)
-
Bruce - with the screwlinks we've done a diagonal rappel back down Twinkle Toes p2 to the p1 rap station. It puts you back down at the bottom of Destiny wall quicker and there is no PO around the base - plus it can be done with 1 rope. BIB takes 2 ropes and there is some scattered PO around the base and growing on the last part of the cliff. The other way I have gotten down from there is to rap back down True Grit to the lodestone, traverse below BMM and then rap from the Lucky 13 anchor. You can also scramble over the top of BMM and do two raps down those stations(starting at 800xx) - just a bit of scattered PO around the base on that one.
Next time I am up there I will put quick links with a link of chain on those bolts. Been meaning to clean up the anchor on top of pitch 1 as well.
-
Next time I am up there I will put quick links with a link of chain on those bolts. Been meaning to clean up the anchor on top of pitch 1 as well.
You da man Bruce! muchas gracias.
-
Tuff Dome Traverse - FA 1973. This route has one bolt that has been replaced with an smc hanger and star dryvin - neither of which is showing any rust. It is the left of the "pair" of bolts shown in position two on the topo on page 220.
The first bolt (above the pillar) is really rusty and on a tab-style/lever-out hanger that is also heavily rusted.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d-_zH6OcRLozKkCwmd8fG4EojgEKU-pQwI76d1kTYS7MY3sj6AHGmT3AvHckkI7OKwFEapYlSQm2mLf-LMUos3XDcRH2B5t1QzBnmF8U0MtgakdP2wQ14mtGvEaUmO6_lKsAGXhxsMABZSr-d0CWwB=w400-h418-no?authuser=0)
The right bolt of the "pair" is identical to the first bolt above the pillar.
The last bolt on the route is also less than inspiring.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fuURhhcT5obPF4Egn_nIx3hWzKoVC4Fla8yOEYuhwAb_SDW6Pmt2g0jKQydH1Q72LFytgXB9jZAhcjGX2CRxJj6XwoYsjF_COfoN9K9Q9BsyIgd7zKLwgvgqIJHqqBSQIRc09I3MSFNwUeLvfBerYb=w350-h529-no?authuser=0)
I'm really curious about the bolting of this route now and maybe Brad can give us the back story.
Rubine showed 3 bolts off location and a climbing path leading to the Reg Rte anchor. The last bolt on the route clearly indicates that the route should go to the summit as Brad shows on his topo. The mystery to me is the difference in bolts and hangers between the original first two bolts(same bolt, same hanger) and the last - exposed stud w Leeper. The modern bolt (smc w Star dryvin) looks like it was added later - possibly by using the original second bolt as a safety backup while drilling from stance. I used a body position belay at the top backed up by a large, solid sling knob on the northwest edge.
-
Can anybody tell me what kind of bolts these are?
Triple X bolt 6 (bolts/hangers 5, 6 and 8 all appear to be the same - bolt/hanger #7 has been replaced)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fiOr2qGFSlBRNrOD-ySqlScf4FNpACBVK4k6IsJcMO15cSgDWPtNPotqyQgrri5LZ4ij3cEBHL_m4M6mvj7xFSWsAD_B59fIyUi14hd3Tibf4G7Im99NJSrSPDLi1UlW1MF3coHiTsb8RZ5UOxZ3we=w586-h625-no?authuser=0)
South Finger Regular Route bolt 1 (the other 3 bolts and hangers above this one are the same type)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eUDvwZhsgBSyB1OA7mwfI5kKw4a6Qut2XZXR_SQJZe2bvCdO3cENwWaxCHwzzktXie0TarQkuc5wbUduFwIjrmwflg5MVfvJEIA3kUor4lkKDmSw7U9qrnrZPo8q1Zq_a5jnMUOsJSR1JkLrBwryHQ=w678-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
ones you should use a screamer on.
-
The top one is a threaded hex into a drop anchor, probably like 1" total length. The drop anchor is 1/2" and the hex bolt is probably 5/16ths.
NO GOOD, replaced many of those.
The second is a Star drive, what looks to be 3/8ths.
Bomber for the time, but nowadays they are frowned upon. If I could pick one anchor to take a huge whipper on, this would be it in terms of historical bolts found in Pinnacles. I have replaced tons of those and they are the hardest to remove, on most occasions.
I would replace both of them.
-
I hate whipping on hardware store junk :)
-
...I would replace both of them.
Funny, I think you did replace several of the bolts on the route those bolts are on. But not those bad boys!
And I do mean funny, as in a funny/ironic statement. Any properly done replacement work is way cool; a real public service, and you do more than your share. I'll bet you got to some of the bolts on that route and not others (at least not yet). Keep up the good work.
-
What route are we speaking of?
-
What route are we speaking of?
Either Triple X or Beyond Destiny (I'm not sure because I only saw him top out - Kevin and I were up higher finishing a new route).
-
What route are we speaking of?
Josh - the top one is Triple X - bolts 5, 6 and 8 look like this. Bolt 7 must be the one you replaced and I am grateful. It gave me a sense of relief after being scared out of my wits. I backed up 5 and 6 with cams and 8 is somewhat superfluous.
The bottom pic is from the last section/only bolted section of South Finger - one of four closely spaced "identicals" but I swear I did not see the raised star on them - do they all have that?
-
Doh! Busted..
That must be xxx. My nemesis. I have made 3 attempts to finish that job.
The last of which, I slammed my thumb against the hanger with my hammer. The thumb exploded, and I bled all over the place during my self rescue! Hahaaa.
Still have no feeling in that thumb.
I probably kept it from ASCA b/c it was not finished.
Another cool note. That hex head bolt should be the next to last, and I am pretty sure it is the one my buddy took a 60 footer on.
-
...and I am pretty sure it is the one my buddy took a 60 footer on.
I sure don't remember THAT story. What happened?
-
I sure don't remember THAT story. What happened?
Yes please, do! Ouch, 60 feet anywhere let alone the Pinns. Whole lotta bandaide's
-
Okay, I guess I have my bolt count wrong, but one of those upper 3 caught a HUGE winger.
Early season about 5 years ago, the watercourse to climbers right was flowing and the moss was in full effect.
My buddy Uli set off, and placed gear as JC did in between the upper bolts, then he had second thoughts about the direct finish as is was seeping all over.
He moved out right and began to traverse over to where you would go down if you were 3rd classing the descent.
He was out of visual, and then I heard "oh shit, falling!"
The rope went limp and I looked up and saw a bunch of loops starting at each bolt. I started peeling in slack, and running backward down the hill. I reeled in a bunch and then saw him surfing the watercourse, then the rope came taught and he swung way left like a clock hand.
We didn't speak for a few seconds, then he said " YOu can finish this one Mucci!"
I lowered him and tied in, climbed up to the bolt that caught him, and thought "no way jose". Looked over to my right and saw 40 feet of ski tracks through the moss!
He went a long way, at least 50+ and if I had not reeled in and ran backward, he might have came all the way down to the start of the 3rd class approach.
Jingus.
Bomber bolt, that is probably why I left it ;)
-
Okay, I guess I have my bolt count wrong, but one of those upper 3 caught a HUGE winger.
Early season about 5 years ago, the watercourse to climbers right was flowing and the moss was in full effect.
My buddy Uli set off, and placed gear as JC did in between the upper bolts, then he had second thoughts about the direct finish as is was seeping all over.
He moved out right and began to traverse over to where you would go down if you were 3rd classing the descent.
He was out of visual, and then I heard "oh shit, falling!"
The rope went limp and I looked up and saw a bunch of loops starting at each bolt. I started peeling in slack, and running backward down the hill. I reeled in a bunch and then saw him surfing the watercourse, then the rope came taught and he swung way left like a clock hand.
We didn't speak for a few seconds, then he said " YOu can finish this one Mucci!"
I lowered him and tied in, climbed up to the bolt that caught him, and thought "no way jose". Looked over to my right and saw 40 feet of ski tracks through the moss!
He went a long way, at least 50+ and if I had not reeled in and ran backward, he might have came all the way down to the start of the 3rd class approach.
Jingus.
Bomber bolt, that is probably why I left it ;)
And why exactly are we only hearing this great story now (I assume he wasn't seriously hurt)?
And why would you think that any bolt at Pinns that had just held a fall/slide of that length would still be bomber afterward?
And, especially, why in hell didn't you make sure that John knew about this fall before he started up the route!?
-
NICE! love the ski track visual Mucci
-
Keeping adventure alive and well Brad :P
I must have told that story before? Last time he climbed in pinnacles I believe.
That route has been XXX for me since the onset.
I will go back and finish it off this year, I hate leaving projects.
-
I recall some part of that story. nice
-
Last time he climbed in pinnacles I believe.
Dang, but understandable,
-
NICE! love the ski track visual Mucci
This will help with the visual
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50256505832_953016c51f_z.jpg)
-
with those shoes of yours, you could do some serious skiing. :)
-
We were on Toog's yesterday and I noticed the rust and missing washer on bolt 1 of Toog's Gallery - Direct Finish 5.9.
I wouldn't have been especially concerned, except for the fact that this bolt is quite high and protects a committing stemming move with a potentially disastrous result if the bolt failed during a fall. The rust looks superficial - but I still imagined the head snapping off if I fell.
The hanger doesn't sit particularly flush/flat (even though it is tight). I felt a lot better after I got the 2nd bolt clipped. There is no FA date on the climb.
Has anyone more experienced ever inspected this first crucial bolt?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d73RvWyAtUc2noBkeJYgiAtpLucYVL3Numqq_H9FbJVkp_GBtxoE8ON3Epi9Lly2_Ji8iLMJTs54bYwAXOlcY9W3SB-fczq60lGjyB_KJrEJRsShn6qzHdSsQuibNFI5t7sbB5yRjmMa2Mh2wsJ9bT=w584-h625-no?authuser=0)
I was also checking the RB info for the summit anchor and there is none. The summit has an old smc death hanger on an allen bolt, a wedge bolt that looks brand new (or is SS) - and a two bolt rap station with chains a few feet away from the others. The rap station is no doubt an FOP replacement for the other two bolts - but is not listed on their site.
-
Clint and I were up rebolting at the Pinns yesterday. We replaced the three bolts on Tuff Dome Traverse(and removed the added bolt). We replaced the old Leeper hangers on the Burgundy Dome rappel route and the Sponge Left Side(well four of the five as we ran out of hangers). We also removed a poorly placed Star Dryvin on the top of Bynum Spire. If anyone wants instructions on how to properly place a Star Dryvin, let me know.
Lastly, we went over to The Big Step to rebolt that. Way too much loose rock and dangerous landings to make this a worthy project. Best to leave it in obscurity and not encourage any climbing traffic.
-
Thanks for your work!
-
Can anybody tell me what kind of bolts these are?
Triple X bolt 6 (bolts/hangers 5, 6 and 8 all appear to be the same - bolt/hanger #7 has been replaced)
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/JCwKCredux/IMG_0930_zps548267d5.jpg) (http://s1057.photobucket.com/user/JCwKCredux/media/IMG_0930_zps548267d5.jpg.html)
South Finger Regular Route bolt 1 (the other 3 bolts and hangers above this one are the same type)
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/JCwKCredux/4IMG_0847_zps2b525040.jpg) (http://s1057.photobucket.com/user/JCwKCredux/media/4IMG_0847_zps2b525040.jpg.html)
The first bolt looks like a self drive, as Mucci noted. Not a great bolt and should be replaced.
The second bolt is a very old Star Dryvin. As noted these are from the South Finger. We didn't replace these because they are very historical, there are enough of them that there is safety in numbers and the climbing is pretty easy.
-
Clint and I were up rebolting at the Pinns yesterday. We replaced the three bolts on Tuff Dome Traverse(and removed the added bolt). We replaced the old Leeper hangers on the Burgundy Dome rappel route and the Sponge Left Side(well four of the five as we ran out of hangers). We also removed a poorly placed Star Dryvin on the top of Bynum Spire. If anyone wants instructions on how to properly place a Star Dryvin, let me know.
Lastly, we went over to The Big Step to rebolt that. Way too much loose rock and dangerous landings to make this a worthy project. Best to leave it in obscurity and not encourage any climbing traffic.
Wow - that is going to be weird to see new hangers on the Sponge and Burgundy. Some friends of ours may have gotten the last lead on the old Sponge hangers two weekends ago. Burgundy was my first 5.7 at Pinns so that will always be a fond memory. So the bolts on those routes were okay? I have always wondered what type they are.
So glad I could lead the Tuff Dome Traverse and get that "I'm going to die" feeling before it can't be experienced any more. I will REALLY miss that! I'll have to lead that again to see how different it feels - the runouts should still keep it exciting. How hard was it to remove those old bolts? Would they have held a fall?
I was actually considering rebolting the Big Step myself after the closures kick in.
I've been up on it to find the old hangerless stud.
The rock on the LOLR did look suspect.
Obscurity is my middle name :)
Funny that you guys cleaned up Bynum's. We were just up on Bynum's Saturday and I was asking Brad about some of the leftover stuff I've seen on summits - most recently The Fingers, H&L and Toog's. I thought maybe folks left it there for posterity. H&L has some old holes that were never filled and the second summit anchors are a joke. I just figured those anchors were never replaced b/c it's so easy and the belayer also has good body position.
-
Clint and I have been doing some rebolting over on Goat Rock. In mid-December we worked on Lonely Sheepherder. The first bolt was a good 3/8" with a bad hanger so we replaced the hanger. We replaced the second protection bolt. The third protection bolt was actually two bolts, one a 3/8" self-drive and the other a 3/8" Star Dryvin. We took out those two and put a new bolt by drilling out the Star Dryvin hole. We replaced the fourth bolt(called 'bad bolt' on Brad's topo) which was a 3/8" split shaft(of course the shafts weren't compressed at all!). We found a broken off 3/8" self drive about 10 feet above the fourth protection bolt so added a bolt there. We replaced the 1/4" belay bolt with two 3/8" SS bolts.
The second pitch had a single bolt, 1/4" Rawl split shaft, which we replaced.
In mid-January we replaced the bolts on Piece of Ewe. All three bolts were 3/8" Star Dryvins. We added a second bolt at the belay on top of the second pitch. Even with new bolts, the third pitch remains a serious lead.
-
Thank you!
-
Yes,
Thank you Bruce and Clint. I lead Lonely Sheepherder last year and thought I was going to die. Glad to hear everything was updated especially the 1/4" bolt and homemade angle hanger. There are a couple really nice water feature in the middle of the route during the early spring season.
-
I lead Lonely Sheepherder last year and thought I was going to die.
Damn! I wanted to lead that before the replacement! NOT! Aaron - too bad they already replaced the Tuff Dome Traverse bolts - now all you get is the runout, crappy gear and sandbag rating.
-
Clint, John Cook and I did some rebolting last Wednesday. We replaced the four bolts on Thundering Herd(the first three were 1.5"x1/4" split shafts, the last was a 1"x1/4" split shaft). We then went over to Toogs and replaced the second bolt on Toog's Tarbaby(3/8" Start Dryvin) and the first bolt on the 5.9 direct finish(1/2" hole with a funky two-part lead sleeve into which a 3/8" lag bolt was threaded). On top of Toog's we removed a 3/8" split shaft(shaft not compressed!) and a 1/2" self drive.
We replaced the chains on top with 3/8" quick links and 3/8" chain. Hopefully, the chain and quick links will remain in place!
-
Here is a photo of the bolts Clint and I replaced on Lonely Shepherder
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/IMG_6778_sm.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/IMG_6778_sm.jpg.html)
-
Here is a photo of the bolts Clint and I replaced on Lonely Shepherder
Images from which nightmares are born.
-
Nice and thanks, Thanks for doing Burgundy, one of the very best l short moderate climbs
at Pinnacles.
-
Here is a photo of the bolts Clint and I replaced on Lonely Sheepherder
The top middle looks like it might have pulled using your fingernail!
Bruce - Aaron swears there is one missing - the lone bolt on pitch 2 in the upper mossy water chute - he said it was a homemade hanger with more than one hole in it. Maybe he is remembering wrong since you've displayed 7 bolts and that is the number shown on the topo.
-
The top middle looks like it might have pulled using your fingernail!
Bruce - Aaron swears there is one missing - the lone bolt on pitch 2 in the upper mossy water chute - he said it was a homemade hanger with more than one hole in it. Maybe he is remembering wrong since you've displayed 7 bolts and that is the number shown on the topo.
Got 'em all. I arranged the bolts in order of the climb; the first bolt at the top of the photo being the first bolt on the climb. The last bolt at the bottom of the photo, the dark, rust-colored split shaft, is the protection bolt on the second pitch.
-
Got 'em all. I arranged the bolts in order of the climb; the first bolt at the top of the photo being the first bolt on the climb. The last bolt at the bottom of the photo, the dark, rust-colored split shaft, is the protection bolt on the second pitch.
Nice. The lag in the lead sleeve is my favorite.
-
Clint and I were rebolting on Machete yesterday. We removed the Fixe ring anchor and quick links on top of the first pitch of Twinkle Toes Traverse and replaced it with quick links and 3/8" chain for a more equalized anchor. We reinstalled the quick links on top of the second pitch and added links of chain for an easier rappel.
We moved over to Lucky 13 where we replaced all the old hangers(mostly thin SMC and a few Leeper) with stronger SS hangers. BTW, all the 3/8" bolts on this climb(there are 13) are SS wedge bolts. We found evidence that the first ascent of this route was done with 1/4 split shaft bolts. We removed hangerless 1/4" split shafts next to the first and second 3/8" bolts. Clint found evidence of 1/4" holes near the 3rd and fourth 3/8" bolts. In actuality there were thirteen 3/8" bolts(the bottom two didn't have hangers) and one 1/4" bolt(it was the fourth bolt from the top). Because there was a 3/8" bolt about one foot above the 1/4" bolt we removed it. Now, the first pitch is all 3/8" bolts.
We completed replacing all the bad hangers(Leepers) on the second pitch with SS hangers except for the second bolt which should really just be removed(too close to other good bolts).
We replaced the Leeper hangers on the three belay bolts at the start of the fourth pitch of Machete Direct with SS hangers.
We replaced the 1st protection bolt, 1st pitch belay bolts and 2nd pitch protection bolt on Daedalus with 3.5"x3/8" SS Rawl 5-piece bolts.
-
Clint and I were rebolting on Machete yesterday.
Geez! that is a crazy amount of work you guys accomplished - good thing I wasn't there to slow you down :)
Thanks for beefing up the TT anchors - that will be sweet.
So do all the "Lucky" route bolts now have hangers?
-
Clint and I were rebolting on Machete yesterday. We removed the Fixe ring anchor and quick links on top of the first pitch of Twinkle Toes Traverse and replaced it with quick links and 3/8" chain for a more equalized anchor. We reinstalled the quick links on top of the second pitch and added links of chain for an easier rappel.
We moved over to Lucky 13 where we replaced all the old hangers(mostly thin SMC and a few Leeper) with stronger SS hangers. BTW, all the 3/8" bolts on this climb(there are 13) are SS wedge bolts. We found evidence that the first ascent of this route was done with 1/4 split shaft bolts. We removed hangerless 1/4" split shafts next to the first and second 3/8" bolts. Clint found evidence of 1/4" holes near the 3rd and fourth 3/8" bolts. In actuality there were thirteen 3/8" bolts(the bottom two didn't have hangers) and one 1/4" bolt(it was the fourth bolt from the top). Because there was a 3/8" bolt about one foot above the 1/4" bolt we removed it. Now, the first pitch is all 3/8" bolts.
We completed replacing all the bad hangers(Leepers) on the second pitch with SS hangers except for the second bolt which should really just be removed(too close to other good bolts).
We replaced the Leeper hangers on the three belay bolts at the start of the fourth pitch of Machete Direct with SS hangers.
We replaced the 1st protection bolt, 1st pitch belay bolts and 2nd pitch protection bolt on Daedalus with 3.5"x3/8" SS Rawl 5-piece bolts.
NICE thanks Bruce- excellent work from you and Clint.
-
Bruce - do you have time to post a pic of the bolts from Tuff Dome Traverse?
I would love to see those since there were no details on the thread :)
-
Geez! that is a crazy amount of work you guys accomplished - good thing I wasn't there to slow you down :)
Thanks for beefing up the TT anchors - that will be sweet.
So do all the "Lucky" route bolts now have hangers?
John,
you wouldn't have slowed us down a bit. We just put this thing together quickly after watching the weather which was even a bit iffy yesterday morning.
Yup! All the bolts on the first pitch of 'Lucky 13' now have beefy, SS hangers.
ps- if you have a good headlamp the amount of work you can get done is only limited by how heavy you want you pack to weigh with all the hardware.
-
Bruce - do you have time to post a pic of the bolts from Tuff Dome Traverse?
I would love to see those since there were no details on the thread :)
I will see what I can do. I think all I have is the hangers since the studs fell apart on removal.
-
I will see what I can do. I think all I have is the hangers since the studs fell apart on removal.
No worries Bruce - I have already seen the hangers since I'm the last poor dumb bastard to lead that thing before the rebolt - good to know that the bolts were solid!
What kind were they?(I described them as mythological)...
-
No worries Bruce - I have already seen the hangers since I'm the last poor dumb bastard to lead that thing before the rebolt - good to know that the bolts were solid!
What kind were they?(I described them as mythological)...
The bolts on Tuff Dome Traverse were 3/8" self drives, just about the worst bolt you could ever place. Basically, you you drill a 3/8" hole and then put in a sleeve with internal threads. You screw a 1/4" bolt into the sleeve. This is so wrong because, not only are you drilling a 3/8" hole and filling it with a 1/4" bolt, the bolt has cut threads which creates a stress riser making the 1/4" bolt way weaker than a standard 1/4" steel rod like you see on a 1/4 split shaft.
Having said all that, 1/4" Star Dryvins may be just as bad as 3/8" self drives.
-
Last Friday JC and I did some rebolting down at the Pinns. JC probably has some pics to add to this narrative.
We removed the two 3/8" Rawl split shafts with Leper hangers at the optional second belay on the Portent and added a 3/8"x3.5" SS Powers bolt to the other good bolt at that optional anchor. I also removed the smash links from the optional first belay.
We removed the 3/8" Rawl split shaft that was one of two anchor bolts on top of the Ordeal. We deepened the hole and placed a 3/8"x3.5" SS Powers bolt in it.
Next stop, Steve's Folly. We replaced the 3/8" Star Dryvin on the first pitch. Those of you who have done this pitch know that the bolt is way off the climbing line. I found the remnants of a 1/4" Star Dryvin just left of the climbing line. The 3/8" Star Dryvin had a Leper hanger so it was probably a rebolt. Because of that I placed the new bolt just right of the old 1/4" Star Dryvin in good rock. We replaced the three bolts on the second pitch (1st one was a 1/4" Rawl buttonhead with a Leeper hanger so it probably isn't an original; the next two were 3/8" self drives). I found the remnants of a 1/4" hole about a foot right of the second bolt.
To be historically correct, my guess is that the FA of this route in 1957 was on aid. In Roper's Pinnacles Guide it is clear that he never climbed the route as he give the rating of the climb as 'unknown.' The Chuck RIchards' guide calls the route 5.5 A1 or 5.7. Richards also mentions a bolt in the chimney on the first pitch. Anybody ever seen that?
-
Last Friday JC and I did some rebolting down at the Pinns. JC probably has some pics to add to this narrative.
To be historically correct, my guess is that the FA of this route in 1957 was on aid. In Roper's Pinnacles Guide it is clear that he never climbed the route as he gave the rating of the climb as 'unknown.' The Chuck Richards' guide calls the route 5.5 A1 or 5.7. Richards also mentions a bolt in the chimney on the first pitch. Anybody ever seen that?
That is some interesting info Bruce - thanks - and thanks again for the day. I am now somewhat familiar with aiding technique after watching Brad and reluctantly volunteering to clean most of what I'll refer to as the Insanity Ceiling section of Arch up the Center. I learned a lot in a short time and through much struggling. I never looked for a bolt on the chimney section of Steve's Folly since there were so many gear placements - and I didn't know there was supposed to be one. The moss is super thick on the left side as you increase in height.
-
Last Friday JC and I did some rebolting down at the Pinns. JC probably has some pics to add to this narrative.
Before pic of Portent upper belay
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3el34E0v-BEErk9C2MWIUR70S_32xWTTi-kPKNOYGL0CAqvroXg-AXn_7GVXShS0mtCwJj27kARawrue588q9Nu_RsujREuCyZnosJtz_yVBU6YKmsdaUziQzmrqPRjMBdRp35IdUtNlJ038OuBqFS6=w700-h525-no?authuser=0)
Portent split shafts
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e4GwQ1AqR5uGfNihjmmm_jovjsBOx_a1cx3KCqI2tL-8vgG5NM4iEetNHmRG-fYphHgK0WPRdmijFLCUgXDLG2FjW5-tjgfipa7wLBUugPXwqHiX1W7k3zNH52zWE1HqmGAE-jqS5JpowLqJhh_laq=w696-h625-no?authuser=0)
Bruce in the tree tangle chimney on the way down to Steve's Folly
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fIqvBb_dYPO6U1ZfF1vwctpUzgzbMmsd9BAX-ZyAlPySKKFucx0W-4KjP3PPjoBTwIx6u9mzb6-qdjatImzvx3v6UgxRThCqydHaUHfUbYPHUHBkza2SBeJ4SCCUDvqm7rZJODxi1lqVZFDC-w_AW0=w700-h525-no?authuser=0)
Bruce in position and working on the awkward third aid bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eVqqOx7E3cqek5qTVu28r4X9l9jc47BigiZzBqXtnl3HWzXUaCK-Vsz_p7NNdOohDt76BvD1kiWMgUdetG3egrWKAVTPUKu7371hnT0pmZyXL0fiJuhFU3UY-9RvgwGngl3rHRrZBxnQjw1okfNxWy=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Pretty new bolts in a row - sweet!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dwq6_xMtpidmqulLOdmBpdd-pHMG6Q7j8JGoO7vGodkbmAcNMl47Qr2u4u3uEpuhx8YyHc9kf0qcButA0VeGiBXxrLE5LGu4V1UXt4S7NOQMt9y_EY7uZcHjGjHDK21jFjOUsnTvRCwDbtUAohhbY9=w495-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2003.msg25662#new
cross posting for posterity if for some reason I can't get to it.
-
Josh marathon replaced three bolts on Triple X, and I got one done. It appears that it is all replaced now.
My hole cratered, but I found some good rock down and left a little.
Right after rapping down Destiny it started raining. Twenty percent my ass.
-
What was the other 80?
-
apparently a fraud perpetrated on the public by the National Weather Service
-
Conspiracy!
-
Hey Munge, according to j-tree, you and Superman have similar anatomy. ST, What.s your favorite route?
-
Josh marathon replaced three bolts on Triple X, and I got one done. It appears that it is all replaced now.
This is odd since only 3 of the bolts were old. Did you do mean he replaced two and you did one?
-
You are right John,
I replaced the 2 in the corner section.
The first was the one next the the A1 bomber crack, and the rock was so hard (30min) to drill the 2.25" bolt.
The second, just below the headwall, was in even harder rock, and I drilled the 3.5" in around an hour.
Hardest stone I have ever drilled in pinnacles, whats more odd is that I did not note this rock quality on the other bolts replaced on the route.
Both anchors were 3/8" x 1" self drive drop anchors. The machine screw is 3/16"
-
oh, the other one higher was replaced already? ok.
-
oh, the other one higher was replaced already? ok.
So Rob - it sounds like you replaced the last bolt.
Josh - it sounds like you were drilling into embedded/buried lodestones - sweet!
These were the notes I made after leading it. I backed up both old bolts with gear.
The long runout to the 6th bolt is understated on the topo because of the curving nature of the route in that section. The route description warns you about the runout AND the fact that the 6th bolt is hard to see - it DEFINITELY had my full attention!
-
I would have added some retro bolts to ease that run, but the moss carpet was not cooperating.
-
I used the moss to hide my retrobolts. That way I can be protected, but others can still get the onsight.
:)
-
I used the moss to hide my retrobolts. That way I can be protected, but others can still get the onsight.
:)
Sweet work thanks!
I want carpet moss in my house......Pinns carpet moss.
-
I would have added some retro bolts to ease that run, but the moss carpet was not cooperating.
I used the moss to hide my retrobolts. That way I can be protected, but others can still get the onsight.
:)
Duuuudes! That's not even funny :)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50256505832_953016c51f_z.jpg)
-
Good man mungie! moss hides everything.
I assume the replaced ones were put in better places.
-
It's worth carrying the crampons out for that bit.
-
I replaced the first 3 hangers on the Fourth Sister West Face Route #239 with stainless hangers. The bolts are carbon steel 5 piece Rawls of unknown age that showed only some minor rust. The top bolt(bolt #4) refused to budge even after a second attempt with a bigger ratchet handle. The 12 point socket I was using was trying to slip/strip the bolt and I didn't have a 6 point socket for that handle. The remaining hanger is a Leeper, and the climbing on that section is the easiest on the route. I looked at the empty bolt hole described in the guidebook and after blowing it out, my blow tube only went in about an inch. I should have checked depth with my drill - in case the hole was filled with debris too solid to blow out. Regardless, I don't think the hole needs any metal. The guidebook description only lists 3 bolts and an empty hole for this route - there are actually 4 bolts and an empty, partially drilled hole. I've always thought this is an excellent beginner's lead. I also replaced the chains at the anchor. The old setup had two smash links on one side and the other side had a screwlink/quicklink with an even number of links(8) with two smash links on the rope end.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dZ7jpdF8pDLuWe2o6HMNAv84l6TbdAlL_z3SPyghFqP2vhXOYzC8mTzk4wA9R6BfPok0zxVo43AyEY-pK_C8RR4bilLDEjmHfJ1ivRQFAxup3JkfgBC9ydLrELEB2XcfRCgXS7lJiJzsv67z9D2R8v=w921-h557-no?authuser=0)
-
Hi JC,
Can you clarify the above bolt and hanger work?
1. You only replaced the hangers? Sounds like it, but you have the bolt pictures up, so wasn't sure given the discussion about the difficulty of pulling the bolts.
2. How much force was used on the bolts to undo them? I shouldn't be worried, right? :)
I vaguely recall a story of that upper bolt hole being told to me by someone, but probably was just talk. Something about starting the hole, but the bit broke, so they just ran it.
-
Hi JC,
Can you clarify the above bolt and hanger work?
1. You only replaced the hangers? Sounds like it, but you have the bolt pictures up, so wasn't sure given the discussion about the difficulty of pulling the bolts.
2. How much force was used on the bolts to undo them? I shouldn't be worried, right? :)
I vaguely recall a story of that upper bolt hole being told to me by someone, but probably was just talk. Something about starting the hole, but the bit broke, so they just ran it.
Correct - I only replaced the hangers. There was no pulling of bolts - only removal. I added a stainless washer to each bolt too, since the old bolt/hanger combos had no washer. Since we don't have an FA date, I decided to show the pic so folks could see the light rust on the bolts. I was able to remove the bolts using a 5 3/4" mini ratchet handle(1/4" drive).
The bit breaking would explain why they didn't finish that last hole. It's not what I would call a run.
-
Bruce and I were out Friday working and I did a little more yesterday.
3-21-14
Portent p1 anchor right bolt replaced (old bolt was a 3/8 split shaft)
Portent top anchor - one old bolt removed (another 3/8 split shaft).
Portent now has two 5 piece bolts at every anchor.
Fourth Sister North Rib 5.1R*(route 238) - I added a SS washer to the lone protection bolt.(original RB FoP 2004)
I removed the old protection bolt - 3/8 split shaft with extremely loose homemade steel tab hanger and patched the hole.
Fourth Sister West Face(route 239):
Edit: I added SS washers and replaced the first 3 hangers on the Fourth Sister West Face Route #239 with stainless hangers. The top bolt(bolt #4) refused to budge. I also put new 3/8 galvanized chains and two new screw links at the anchor.
I used a breaker bar on bolt 4. It turned about a half turn and then broke.
We drilled a new hole and replaced that bolt.
The route now has 3 carbon steel 5 pc bolts with new SS washers and SS hangers and one new SS 5 pc bolt
First Sister Back Side (route 227) - Bruce removed the old star dryvin with SMC death hanger and drilled a new hole for the new SS 5 pc bolt. The old bolt was not flush with the hanger and placed in questionable rock. Bruce found better rock slightly up and right for the new bolt. The drilling stance was not fun for Bruce, but the new bolt is sweet!...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cPYi07-im5-wrDdBxiQTiI3ywnycBbJrz1TE--f1ADC533VixIOPlWS-xKoFgqoykjEVEHme624aMEpwBTrq6OPIYj-KpYaNSUYP1Q99eUGSLV7t8lgP-Jwlm_Xd3BW3QBrtLUBBkADdbEop0_8hJJ=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
3-22-14
First Sister West Face Center Route (route 225)
I added a SS washer and SS hanger to bolt 1 (old hanger was a Leeper).
I replaced bolt 2 with a SS bolt and hanger. I forgot my patch material, so I will need to go back and patch the old hole.
-
(http://The route now has 3 carbon steel 5 pc bolts with new SS washers and SS hangers and one new SS 5 pc bolt)
Thx for all the good work guys!
Question: Is there some reason you're mixing metal grades? With all the nice SS bolts and hangers, replacing just hangers and washers sounds a little odd to me. Is the idea to just get the death hangers off the climbs sooner rather than later?
thx,
M
-
Munge,
in the Pinnacles (and 99% of the climbing areas in the US for that matter) there is no problem with mixed metal. Galvinic Corrosion is a horribly overblown fear. The Rawl/Powers 5-pieces we are removing and replacing hangers on show only very minimal surface rust and should last 50+ years. There is just too much other crap out there to worry about replacing these bolts.
Bruce
-
Like ticks!
-
Munge,
in the Pinnacles (and 99% of the climbing areas in the US for that matter) there is no problem with mixed metal. Galvinic Corrosion is a horribly overblown fear. The Rawl/Powers 5-pieces we are removing and replacing hangers on show only very minimal surface rust and should last 50+ years. There is just too much other crap out there to worry about replacing these bolts.
Bruce
Thx Bruce. I disagree that there isn't any problem. I've seen a fair bit of rust because of SS hangers on carbon bolts. Which is not to say the rust is other than superficial... at this time. Just mostly curious on the approach. Clearly, you're doing a good job triaging the worst offending bolts, and catching the good low hanging fruit where you can. thx!
cheers,
M
-
Munge,
can you give me some examples where you think there is a problem? I haven't seen anything that concerned me at the Pinnacles, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
-
Bruce,
No need. :) We're on semantics here now. There is no problem... at this time. Viewed along a time horizon, the ones showing rust now will have to get changed, eventually.
Absent bad rock, the metal isn't going to crack any time soon. But it is 'a' problem that will need to be dealt with at some point, and the right thing to do, as you said, is to take care of the real crap first. Put the resources where they need to be.
-
I should qualify my remarks about the hype on galvanic corrosion.
When I say there is no problem I mean that there is no problem with good, high quality carbon steel bolts and SS hangers. Powers/Rawl carbon steel 5-pieces are Grade 5 carbon steel.
With wedge bolts there is a huge difference in quality of the bolts and steel used. I still believe that what people are seeing is just the poor rustproofness of poor quality steel bolts and not galvanic corrosion, but with poor quality steel who knows.
-
I replaced one bolt on 2nd Sister yesterday. There are no bolts listed on this climb in the guidebook. It was a star dryvin with a broken/torn aluminum tab hanger. Kat spotted it as she followed the route. Man that belay is exposed - and no anchor :yikes:
I am only speculating here, but this bolt may have originally been used as protection for the final face of the 2nd Sister (since there is no summit anchor) or to belay the 2nd Sister East Face 5.7R.
I also carefully checked the summit to make sure there was no evidence of an anchor ever being there - there was no evidence.
On my way down, I patched the old hole I left a few weeks ago when I rebolted First Sister Center Route.
2nd Sister Old found bolt w torn hanger
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dvSEqmEZHKKcggbw5Mr8TYGct03oATb6gDzrs6Qc87-des97i2IxLG3ztBFCUtzTfTwCKzVnangfX8XIOhIpVjkBIIbcz6Gc3CL_0-Duwxsi0KvRqi7bjPiqpxPymmsYb5chqTOmudU6etTZGXkG_e=w700-h525-no?authuser=0)
setup for working on the rebolt (slung knob and Kat kept me tied off on belay)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3esEHWx-gDjDZakd1dGvTiAeeqVMh6WDQ5ELEVejL2vXwZcUu5DDbq53hCNAfz_HbGMTtmJ4ycN60UOEVhwb34TNUKFmqXRVGfTBgR846-eG0f2DwUsgFfL9kbmNZ0SpGGaXlIBVy5gLKwRp7W0yvZN=w600-h450-no?authuser=0)
view from 1st Sister Backside route to replacement bolt on 2nd Sister (left of the noticeable lodestone)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dlUtmFhxueR1Cow9gJabSD3gVBZTxpWTmyKBii4byV8a2mqakLkOLDXlhHRT0TrhHY-LY3QdQRtNp40h8Nv9CmCLwgSa92rOYrCRC3uykep0btw5ipI071o1reBQQyIm8RaT0UyxraMD4B8daU3ZS8=w700-h525-no?authuser=0)
-
Thanks and Happy b-day.
-
neat find on 2nd sister.
-
I put this together today Let me know what y'all think.
I can tweak it if it needs different formatting or what not.
Brad - I didn't have a date for the Snail.
SOURCES
Mud & Crud Rebolt thread sticky as of 6-9-14 + compilation from Clint's list(see link at start of sticky).
I also combed through the ASCA rebolt info (see sticky link).
Of particular interest to me was the info on The Hand, Thumb, Snail and Frog.
Legend:
Climb #, climb name, rebolter(s).
If no specific info is listed, all the lead bolts/hangers were replaced – designated by “route”.
If a route was only partially rebolted or specific parts were replaced – then those are listed.
38 – Steve’s Folly – route - Hildenbrand, Cook, Feb 2014
58 – Portent – all anchors - Hildenbrand, Cook, Feb 2014
82 – Ordeal – anchor - Hildenbrand, Cook, Feb 2014
152 – Monolith NE Corner - route - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
185 - Bridwell Bolts – bolts 1, 2, 3 and starting from the top 6 more – Brad Young, April 2001
225 – First Sister West Face Center Route - #1 hanger, #2 bolt/hanger – Cook, Mar 2014
227 – First Sister Back Side – route - Hildenbrand, Cook, Mar 2014
228 – Second Sister – one route bolt/hanger - not listed in 2007 guide – Cook, April 2014
232 – Third Sister - #1 hanger, #2 bolt/hanger, anchor - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
233 – Little Sister Spire Notch Route – route and anchor - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
238 – Fourth Sister North Rib - #1 hanger, old #2 bolt removed - Hildenbrand, Cook, Mar 2014
239 – Fourth Sister West Face - #1,#2,#3 hanger, #4 bolt/hanger, anchor - Hildenbrand, Cook, Mar 2014
249 – Big Marmot Regular Route – route and anchor - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
268 – Shoot the Tube – route and one bolt/hanger added(#5) + anchor with rings, J McConachie Jan 2013
271 – Split Infinity – route and anchor, J McConachie Jan 2013
274 – Dance on a Volcano – route and anchor, J McConachie Jan 2013
327 – Back of the Hand – p1: 1 anchor bolt, 1 route bolt, p2: 1 anchor bolt – D.E. Mr Mud, 1995
334 – The Thumb Regular Route – route and anchor – Fletcher, Jan 2000
335 – 50 Meter Must – route – old bolts left intact – The Merry Cranksters, Nov 2001
336 – The Snail – route and anchor – B Young
343 – Tuff – route partial (4 of 6 bolts) – B Young, D.E. Mr Mud, Jan 2003
350 – Ski Jump – route and anchor – Lampley, Jan 2000
351 – Lonesome Dove – route and anchor – Fletcher, Jan 2000
389 – Little Mustaugh – partial route – Brad Young, Nov 2000
487 – Lonely Sheepherder - #1 hanger, all other route bolts/hangers, Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
488 – Piece of Ewe – route + 1 bolt/hanger added at p2 belay - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
503 – Flatiron Apron Regular Route – route and anchor – Fletcher, Nov 2001
504 - Flatiron Apron Right - route and anchor – Fletcher, Nov 2001
534 – Sponge Regular Route – all hangers - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Dec 2013
538 – Burgundy Dome Rappel Route – all hangers - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Dec 2013
550 – Tuff Dome Traverse – route - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Dec 2013
665 – The Torso – anchor and all but last 2 route bolts – Fletcher Oct 1999
666 – Humming Bird Spire – anchor - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Feb 2013
700 – Rumbling Rampart – bolt 4 – Fletcher Nov 2000
752 – No Smiles - #2 bolt/hanger – Behrens, Dec 2012
764 – Toog’s Gallery - #1 hanger, all other route bolts/hangers, Hildenbrand, Cummins, Feb 2013
765 – Toog’s Gallery Direct Finish – bolt #1, Cummins Jan 2014
766 – Toog’s Alligator – route - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Feb 2013
767 – Toog’s Tarbaby – route - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Feb 2013
767 – Toog’s Tarbaby - upper bolt/hanger (not shown in 2007 guide), Cummins, Cook Jan 2014
769 – Thundering Herd – route - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Cook Jan 2014
770 – Tugboat – route and anchor - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Apr 2012
784 – Machete Direct – p2 anchor Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
784 - Machete Direct - p3 belay hangers Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
793 – Lucky 13 – all hangers - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
795 – Alias Bandit Bench – p2 bolts/hangers, p2 hangers - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
796 – True Grit - # 1 bolts/hangers, #3 hanger Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
798 – Daedalus – #1 bolt/hanger, p1 belay anchor, p2 bolt/hanger - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
ASCA list says replaced the 6th and 7th protection bolts - Hildenbrand, Cummins, 11/06
810 – Triple X – Mucci Nov 2010 (bolts 1-4, 7, anchor), Mucci, Behrens, Mar 2014 (bolts 5, 6 and 8)
818/820/821 – Son of Dawn Wall – mostly replaced – old bolts need narrow biners – Cummins, Mar 2002
821 – Son of Dawn Wall – one bolt/hanger of three at p1 anchor, Queener, Jan 2013
826 – Desperado Chute-Out – partial (7 bolts) – Cummins, Feb 2002
835 – The Hideout – route – July 1999, M Fletcher
-
Are you recompiling all rebolting, just last two years?
Goal of recompiling? Better to provided feedback if I have the end goal in mind.
Wrt ASCA...
There is some funky info on the ASCA site from Mark Fletcher - for example - he lists the Regular Route on The Thumb - pulled 5 bolts, placed 4 - book says there's two.
pulled an extraneous one?
Replaced 4 as in 2 on the route, and 2 anchors?
-
we also need the type of bolt and hanger color.
-
Are you recompiling all rebolting, just last two years?
Goal of recompiling? Better to provided feedback if I have the end goal in mind.
Wrt ASCA...
pulled an extraneous one?
Replaced 4 as in 2 on the route, and 2 anchors?
Munge - I was just trying to get all the RB info on here into one compact space so folks don't have to scroll through the entire thread - plus I removed all the fine details. You're probably right about The Thumb Reg Rte but he doesn't specify. I like the way Brad has it in the book. I need to double check ASCA and Clint's site against the book and the thread and I can add in anything I find so it's ALL in one place. I think I only saw a couple items on the ASCA list. My plan is to make it a sticky on the site.
-
looks nice
-
Munge - I was just trying to get all the RB info on here into one compact space so folks don't have to scroll through the entire thread - plus I removed all the fine details. You're probably right about The Thumb Reg Rte but he doesn't specify. I like the way Brad has it in the book. I need to double check ASCA and Clint's site against the book and the thread and I can add in anything I find so it's ALL in one place. I think I only saw a couple items on the ASCA list.
Cool, then overall looks good. I would title it with something to that effect. " summary of rebolting listed on mudncrud site "
-
Cool, then overall looks good. I would title it with something to that effect. " summary of rebolting listed on mudncrud site "
Done - and I updated the list after going through Clint's and the ASCA records associated with the links we have.
Who do I bill for my time?
-
me, but the coin of the land is bll.
-
me, but the coin of the land is bll.
mmmmm...Mongo not know BLL ;)
Any thoughts as to "pinning" the list to the start of the sticky?
-
not sure how to make a mid post the top. will have to look into it
-
Copy.......paste?
Wait, you are a Unix guy.....never mind
-
this is database stuff and I am now a windoze guy, or something like that.
-
Does anyone know who the Merry Cranksters were/are? They are listed as rebolting 50 Meter Must.
-
Does anyone know who the Merry Cranksters were/are? They are listed as rebolting 50 Meter Must.
Kelly Rich can answer that (Adam probably can too).
-
Kelly Rich can answer that (Adam probably can too).
I should have known Atom was involved! As long as they were not hanging out with Ken Kesey when they did the rebolting ;)
-
I replaced a crappy 3inch wedge anchor today on the arete right of What I've Been Missing Out On. It failed due to bad rock, and pulled quite easily. Much better rock 20inches higher allowed for a solid 3 3/4 double wedge SS.
Now to make a tuning fork. And get on a outing with the masters.
-
I replaced a crappy 3inch wedge anchor today on the arete right of So This is What I've been Missing. It failed due to bad rock, and pulled quite easily. Much better rock 20inches higher allowed for a solid 3 3/4 double wedge SS.
Now to make a tuning fork. And get on a outing with the masters.
Good work clink - I know you have been wanting to do that for quite some time.
Greg Barnes can hook you up with tuning forks - I have a couple and need to get back to some rebolt work soon.
I would have gotten some stuff replaced this summer if not for all this new work.
Classes start tomorrow :)
-
JC,
if you want as complete a list as possible of all the rebolting activities at Pinnacles then you need the FOP master list. It is just about up to date and includes 120 routes and 400+ bolts. In addition FOP has added chains/links for rappel on 99 routes. Activity on the list dates back to the early 90's.
Bruce
-
JC,
if you want as complete a list as possible of all the rebolting activities at Pinnacles then you need the FOP master list. It is just about up to date and includes 120 routes and 400+ bolts. In addition FOP has added chains/links for rappel on 99 routes. Activity on the list dates back to the early 90's.
Bruce
Thanks Bruce. I actually went through the list FOP/Clint has online and cross-checked it with the guidebook to make the listing I posted on here. That's assuming it is the master list. Maybe you and I can catch up at the trail day in October :)
-
Kelly Rich can answer that (Adam probably can too).
hahahahahahhahah!
The Merry Cranksters!!!!
I forgot about us.
-
JC,
your list has about 40 routes. The FOP master list has over 120 routes. So, if your list is intended to be some sort of list of all the rebolted routes in the Pinnacles I would say that it is incomplete.
Bruce
Edit- OK so I think I figured it out. The list JC put together is of existing routes in Brad's guidebook that have out of date rebolting information.
-
where is the master list posted Bruce?
-
where is the master list posted Bruce?
Munge,
I don't think it is posted anywhere. I gave Clint a copy probably 8-10 years ago which is reflected in the list on his Stanford web page. The list has five sections - 1) FOP rebolting 2) FOP adding chains/links to anchors 3) FOP removed extraneous bolts 4) FOP replaced bad hangers on good bolts 5) unknown rebolting. One of these days we should probably post it somewhere.
-
where is the master list posted Bruce?
Rob,
I spent hours combing through Clint's list, the ASCA list, this thread and the guidebook. My list on page 3 of this thread has everything from all of those sources that is not already in the guide book. You'd have to pay me to do it again.
It was a love hate thing and partly selfishly motivated. :)
-
Ok, so it sounds like there should be no gap.
-
Unless it wasn't reported.......
-
Some were obviously reported as being unreported, avoiding any conjecture.
-
Unless it wasn't reported.......
There is no doubt still stuff out there that hasn't been reported. For example, the first 3 bolts on The West Face have been replaced by an unknown party and are still suspect in my opinion - so I didn't include them on my list. They are all wedges (I assume) and I did not test them with a magnet to see if they are stainless. The first stud had a loose nut so I removed and loctited it. The 2nd bolt has at least an inch of stud sticking out which means if it is a 3 inch bolt - there is only about 1 1/2 inches in the hole. The third bolt and I believe the anchor bolts barely had any stud sticking out of the nut - pretty much flush. It's my understanding that you should always try to have at least 3 threads showing above the nut. Since these are all stud style bolts, there is no way to know what type or length they are. I'll continue to take pictures, report and replace as much as I can but I've first got to stop getting sucked into all these FA's and climbing on the curs-ed plutonics!
-
... but I've first got to stop getting sucked into all these FA's and climbing on the curs-ed plutonics!
Wahhh, life is so difficult; your climbing career has been ruined by people of bad influence.
-
Wahhh, life is so difficult; your climbing career has been ruined by people of bad influence.
Definitely!
-
Ibby, ibhy ahh.
-
Do they have stand up comedy for climbers? Cuz I think you'se guys missed yer calling!
-
What about the Retrobolted list?
Who has that?
-
What about the Retrobolted list?
Who has that?
He is buried in a hole dug with Mountain Tools.
-
All Hail the King of Smack....Clink!
-
Since these are all stud style bolts, there is no way to know what type or length they are.
I'm a certified bolt tester. Ask Clink.
-
The first pitch of Shake N Bake is a worthy candidate for new bolts. Would compliment the excellent new bolts higher up on the route!
Also, a new bolt or two on Heat Seeking Moisture Missile would make the lead a slightly better idea. I think there's a new bolt on that one somewhere higher up.
-
The first pitch of Shake N Bake is a worthy candidate for new bolts. Would compliment the excellent new bolts higher up on the route!
Also, a new bolt or two on Heat Seeking Moisture Missile would make the lead a slightly better idea. I think there's a new bolt on that one somewhere higher up.
Not sure what the story is on Shake and Bake since it is listed as '76 and not on my master list on p3 this thread.
Rubine listed them as 3/8" split shaft. S&B has quite the classic history, so I personally wouldn't touch it without one of the rebolting masters along to help.
Maybe Bruce or someone else can shed light on how there can be new bolts up high but with no record I can find either on here, ASCA, Clint's page or FOP. I have been on some of the other old Higgins routes and the star drives on those are still in good shape. Just a suggestion - It would be helpful to know the specific condition of any routes suggested for rebolt - bolt type, hanger type, tight/loose, rusted - etc. I try to take notes and pics when I lead up something that I think is a candidate.
Moisture Missile is Jim's route and he is still an active climber, so maybe he'll shed some light on the nature of the hardware on that route. It is listed as '84 so it's much newer than many of the other older routes still needing attention. Rubine has 1/4" and 3/8" split shaft.
-
Jim replaced one or more of the bolts higher up. He did this on his own not through FOP or ASCA.
-
Jim replaced one or more of the bolts higher up. He did this on his own not through FOP or ASCA.
Thanks D,
Maybe he'll be kind enough to give us dates and some specifics - probably replaced the 1/4" ers.
I'll be talking to him soon.
Any insight on S&B?
-
There is an old thread here somewhere that was put up when we rebolted Shake and Bake. A guy from Truckee let us know that if we donated the arms he would donate the hardware. He provided two drills (that we returned), bolts, hangers and glue. He did help with some drilling. We pulled and in a couple of places chopped all the old bolts on Lava Falls and Shake and Bake over the course of a two day weekend. We ran out of time and hardware for the first pitch of Shake and Bake. All of the holes for both routes were drilled by hand. The bolts are 1/2 x 6 or 6.5 so the holes basically had to be around 7. When possible we drilled in the same hole.
We would have rebolted the first pitch of Shake and Bake as well but just ran out of time and the work was done on the last open weekend of the season so the following weekend was not a possibility to finish.
I do not remember who all was there. It was something like Clint who basically lived on a rope with a drill in his hand for two full days, F4, Munge, mud, maybe Uber do not remember who else. Perhaps F4 or Munge remember who was there that weekend.
Do not want to forget the guy from Truckee he was there. Anyone remember his name? It would be good to have his name in this thread. What an awesome contribution. He had climbed in the Pins a few times but not all that much.
-
As I recall it was the guy from Truckee, you, Clint, and F4 who did that work.
It's important to note though that only most of the pitches on the second and third pitches of Shake and Bake got replaced, not all. I'd passed on the "all" comment to Skelton in January when he led all its pitches with Mudworm, and that's why he skipped three bolts (the old ones that are still there) when he led the route.
-
That is correct. I think we missed two bolts, the first and the last. The last bolt was always occupied since that was the top anchor bolt and the first bolt we just missed. The first bolt we just missed. Maybe it is the first two bolts. It would be good to clear that part up.
-
You guys did a quality job on Shake n Bake! The upper pitches felt pretty casual with good bolts. Thanks for that! :)
Not sure what I'd call the first pitch from a safety standpoint, but not knowing where the bolts were, and their suspect nature, made it an interesting outing.
-
VS1600, Welcome to the forum.
-
That is correct. I think we missed two bolts, the first and the last. The last bolt was always occupied since that was the top anchor bolt and the first bolt we just missed. The first bolt we just missed. Maybe it is the first two bolts. It would be good to clear that part up.
Is there an echo in here?
Geez - you guys are making it hard to be the rebolt Nazi. I may have to take some scalps!
If you spill your guts, I can add it to my master list on page 3.
I see no RB info for either in the book, so it would be good to add these gems to the list and any pothers you know about. Clearly there are other climbs that have been done and not reported - e.g. p1 The West Face
Lava Falls - total rebolt? 1/2"x6" SS wedges? if wedges - single, double? or are they 5 pc rawls? Date? Crew?
Shake and Bake - partial rebolt - pitches 2 and 3? materials? crew? date?
Let's have it - I've got lots of work to do...
-
Sir yes sir.
Hey, I'm (obviously) way too important and busy to read your list, but did you include our rebolting efforts on Icarus on it?
That's all I can think of for now - the phone is ringing off the hook here, and emails are flying in. Something about an otherwise naked guy free-soloing a route up Glacier Point Apron in approach shoes? Apparently he set the new speed record, although I'm still trying to tell if that speed record was for going up or going down?
-
Is there an echo in here?
Lava Falls - total rebolt? 1/2"x6" SS wedges? if wedges - single, double? or are they 5 pc rawls? Date? Crew?
Shake and Bake - partial rebolt - pitches 2 and 3? materials? crew? date?
Let's have it - I've got lots of work to do...
yes an echo
1/2 x 6 SS glue in bolts
Have no idea on the count. Some one needs to go climb the routes to get an accurate count. You can get a basic count by looking at the bolt count in Brad's guide book. So both pitches on Lava Falls and pitch 2 and 3 on Shake and Bake. Have no idea on the date and do not really remember who all was there.
I have never really paid much attention to this kind of stuff.
-
Saturday Joel and I had intended to get on a climb that turned out to be running water. So, after he led a route in the sun, and since we had the bolt kit along, we went over to rebolt a bit of Icarus.
He did well, and we then did the easy, but also very loose traverse left to the base of Icarus' second pitch.
I then proceeded to start the rebolting process, which is the entire purpose of this post. Glen Denny is very tall and his bolt ladders (this one included) require wicked-long reaches. These reaches give this bolt ladder interesting "character." I had previously replaced the second bolt in this ladder, and, to protect this character I'd carefully placed it at the same level as the replaced bolt, 10 inches to the left.
So I replaced the third bolt with two bolts, both in good rock, both less distant from the bolt below. When I replace the old fourth bolt, I'll likely go up several inches above it and in the process fill the distance once taken up by two bolts with three (but three in good rock).
From what I can tell you replaced 4 bolts in a 10 bolt ladder on p2?
Is there more someplace else?
Obviously I don't have time to search and read all your scattered information - what with fielding numerous calls from Guinness Book, Who's Who, Wikipedia, Honnold, Hans and of course Roger...
-
I can't really recall now Steve (or whatever the hell your name is) and it's only been a year. When you're as busy and important as I am, well, the little details fall to the wayside along with the little people.
I replaced the second bolt in the aid bolt ladder when I was there with Dennis and Jim eight or nine years ago. The replacement was 3/8" carbon steel, Rawl-type, 3 1/2 inches (it's overhanging there and I wanted to use up some of my old carbon steel bolts there they wouldn't get wet much). That's the same trip where they pulled a lot of the added bolts and I drew the topo and then moved the Sons of the West belay off of Icarus and onto just that route.
Then, you've cited the trip report where I replaced the third and fourth bolts (same type of replacement bolts, same reason).
And then, last October, Kevin and I replaced (I really don't recall here), I think four more bolts in the bolt ladder itself? These replacements were long, stainless, Rawl-type 3/8 inch. Among this last set of replacements, we did replace the last bolt in the bolt ladder (the one that protects the first of the mandatory free climbing). Kevin and I also replaced the bolt in the middle of the mandatory free climbing (also with a long Rawl 3/8" stainless).
And what the hell, Roger actually called you back?
-
JC and Roger get that faraway look in their eyes when they speak "rocks" to each other.
-
Ok here is the thread from the rebolting of Lava Falls with bolt detail. Lava Falls has one glue in which is the bolt below the crux.
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=939.0
From the thread there were four of us. Clint, F4, mudncrud and I think Brian who was the guy from Truckee. Wish I had his last name.
-
798 – Daedalus – #1 bolt/hanger, p1 belay anchor, p2 bolt/hanger - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
ASCA list says replaced the 6th and 7th protection bolts - Hildenbrand, Cummins, 11/06
'06 is right as Brad and I were up on it the next weekend.
Will the tree at the 1st pitch be replanted?
-
There - I updated it with that info - thanks for the details.
D - The site automatically changes your name to Mr Mud.
I tried it with and without the first initials. stealthy :)
Factor - you'd have to have water to get a sapling to take root and grow!
clink might be willing to plant some PO there :)
Alternatively maybe we could get one of those cell towers that looks like a digger pine...
-
Mr Mud
-
Mr Mud
-
Mr Mud
Word filter testing complete.
We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
-
Back in 2006 Clint (I belayed) replaced the 6th and 7th bolts on the headwall of pitch 2 of Daedulus. The 6th bolt was at the top of the short bolt ladder. Unfortunately, the 7th bolt was a Zmac which had been added after the first ascent(Glen Denny later confirmed that they only used Star Dryvins on the FA). We didn't even know what the route was when we went up there, but there was a long length of frayed goldline hanging off one of the headwall bolts so we decided to go up and check it out.
Brian Bega from Truckee helped out with the rebolting of Lava Falls. I replaced the top protection bolt on pitch two with a 3.8" x 3.5" SS Powers in 2006 and also swapped out the Leeper hangers at the top anchor as well. Jack Holmgren glued in a lot of the Star Dryvins on this route making the bolts very hard to remove.
-
Man some of those bolts on Lava Falls were welded into the rock. they did not pull easily.
Glad the deed is done and now folks can enjoy the route.
Thanks Bruce for replacing the upper one 1st!
-
Brian Bega from Truckee
Brian Bega, that was the guy. Thank you Bruce for supplying that lost piece of information.
Brian helped with the bolting and supplied the glue in bolts and the glue. He also brought either one drill or two drills for the 1/2 in holes. Jim supplied the other 1/2 drill bit.
-
Just wanted to mention that I upgraded the anchor for Lithium / Tangent today. The old set-up - with 3 smash links and a thin rappel ring off one bolt and 2 smash links off the other bolt - has always felt unnerving to me. A year or two ago, I got around to asking Clint for permission to upgrade the set-up, and finally remembered to bring the basic gear for it today. Now there is a stainless quick link hanging off the 3 smash links from the first bolt (with the thin ring bypassed), and a 5-link chain hanging from a stainless quick link on the second bolt. The whole set-up is now pretty well equalized for rappel.
-
doubt I will ever climb that again, but thank you for the upgrade. Sounds like a much better setup.
-
Things were pretty wet this weekend, and so the climbing was limited. Alan and I "took advantage" of the conditions to replace some bolts.
First, I'm embarrassed to say I'm not sure whether the two-bolt top anchor we replaced was at the top of the second pitch of Nexus, or atop Plexus or Sexus. Conditions were so wet that we couldn't get very far out on the edge of the cliff without fear of sliding off, and I couldn't get my bearings as to which route we were at the top of.
Second, this top anchor was in weird condition. The bolt hangers were smashed over flat:
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7474/15792690638_d07e2ea7d2_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7542/15794345487_c07f49f31b_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7523/15792688358_5292d04083_c.jpg)
The smashing in question must have happened many years ago for the moss to have grown over the silver colored bolt hanger. Alan and I theorized that some stray hiker angry with climbers "defacing" the rock may have smashed the hangers? Once we returned to our group though, Jim said that he thought they'd been smashed by an infamous, late 80s Pinnacles rap-bolter in revenge for the Nexus first ascent author having erased one of the rap-bolter's rap-bolted routes. That made more sense as an explanation of how they came to be smashed (although it made no sense at all as an action taken by an idiot so many years ago).
Third, we installed two good bolts in very good rock. These were ASCA, half-inch stainless. We did not place the bolts side-by-side due to rock quality (the old anchors did not have slings or chains and to my knowledge aren't used as a rappel station, and so side-by-side didn't seem as important as good rock):
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8617/15979442622_5782265417_c.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7527/15794100469_a4e8937420_c.jpg)
Although the old bolts were well placed for what they were, what they were was one and one half inch long, 3/8" Star Dryvns with decidedly not-modern hangers. I think the new equipment is better (we did pull the old bolts):
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8680/15357843214_66116e748d_c.jpg)
-
Nice job Brad. So we could rap in from the new Anchors?
-
Nice job Brad. So we could rap in from the new Anchors?
One way to do Plexus and Sexus is to rap in and climb just these two routes back out (this works if doing Nexus, or at least its first pitch, is too much). These would work well for that.
Walk over to them from the base of The Inn Crowd.
-
Us mortals would have to. No way I'm getting up Nexus...without Jumars.
-
F4, you could do it once you're in shape again. The crux is the upper section and there is a small nut that Mr Mud or Brad used that seemed to protect the moves, IIRC.
-
there is a small nut that Mr Mud or Brad used that seemed to protect the moves, IIRC.
Don't weight it.
-
I think I'd also want to check that fixed pin before ever trying to lead it again (I think it was a knifeblade!).
-
I still recall very clearly doing Nexus with Joe several years ago... It's definitely a heads-up route. The first pitch is awesome, sustained 5.10, but with some big stone knobs that are still popping out (and robbed me of an onsight). The thin, 5.11a corner stemming is worth all the effort, though... There's nothing else like it that I've climbed at Pinnacles.
The 2nd and 3rd pitches are in dire need of rebolting and more bolting, though... What is there is buried in moss. If those pitches were cleaned up I think they would be pretty fun.
-
I think this is the proper place to post this. I'm not sure, I'm new, haha.
I added rap rings and quick links to the 4th belay on Power Tools on Citadel. The quick link that somebody (forget who) told me was on the 2nd or 1st bolt of Costanoan is gone. The Citadel can now be rapped top to bottom with one 60 meter rope, the ends just touch the ground from the 2nd belay of Power Tools. Hopefully this clears up the need to lug two 60's all the way up there. They're 3/8" quicklinks and stainless rings.
-
Nice, thank you.
And, Welcome to the Forum!
-
Thanks. I ran into you guys yesterday morning in the parking lot. Congrats on the 900 routes, Brad. :)
It was my first time there and was fantastic until my buddy threw his pack off Elephant Rock. Cut our day a bit short.
And I've gone off topic... Oops.
-
No worries that happens a lot around here. Hope he pack is ok.
-
The thin, 5.11a corner stemming is worth all the effort, though... There's nothing else like it that I've climbed at Pinnacles.
I'll admit that Jack once gave me a tug on the rope to get me out of the only time in my life i've performed a gymnastic split. It is a unique spot. Last time I was up that way, the anchors were mysteriously flat. Hammered, you think? Malice?
-
I'm in the process of completing a few projects and updating my master list.
It sounds like Bruce and Clint may also have some new info to report.
Good to see you guys out there this weekend giving such a classic route some long-needed attention.
I have two things underway right now and plan to complete them soon.
#1 is The Outcast. So far I have rebolted the main anchor and added chains.
I also added chains to the rappel station on Knuckle Ridge.
Next trip out I will replace all the lead bolts and pull/patch the old anchor bolts on The Outcast.
Brad replaced the anchor bolts on Catatonic Stupor.
#2 is Begin It Now. I replaced the two lead bolts on pitch one over the weekend. I will replace the lead bolt on p2 and the summit anchors my next trip up - probably this weekend.
I'll update my master list and repost it after each site is complete.
-
Thank you for the work on the Outcast. Those are some old bolts and the anchors bolts are fairly shoddy. At least they were 10 years ago.
-
Thank you for the work on the Outcast. Those are some old bolts and the anchors bolts are fairly shoddy. At least they were 10 years ago.
Fairly shoddy is generous bro. Upper left - 1/4"(probably split shaft) w Leeper, upper right - allen bolt w homemade tab hanger - both just have a smashlink to thread the rope. The new anchor is in excellent rock and a much better position for the rappel. The rope pulls very nicely. It will be fun to go finish the work :)
-
The quick link that somebody (forget who) told me was on the 2nd or 1st bolt of Costanoan is gone.
I confirmed this with Lasher.
I installed that link in July of 2012 and tightened it with a wrench - so someone reached new dirtbag heights by removing it this season. I'd like to personally congratulate whoever did it.
It was still there on 9-27-14.
I will put another one on it and this time Red Loctite will be deployed.
-
a quicklink on the lead bolts?
can I get a refresh on why it is(was) there?
-
John, nice work on the Outcast anchor. I like that you left the old funky allen bolt and aluminum hanger next to it. Let me know when you go back out to replace the bolts on the route. I'm totally up for going out there again.
-
Fairly shoddy is generous bro. Here is a composite. Upper left - 1/4"(probably split shaft) w Leeper, upper right - allen bolt w homemade tab hanger - both just have a smashlink to thread the rope. Bottom left shows the new anchor with chains. Bottom right shows new and old. The new anchor is in excellent rock and a much better position for the rappel. The rope pulls very nicely. It will be fun to go finish the work :)
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/JCwKCredux/Oucastanchorcompositeoldandnew_zps0b3539bc.jpg) (http://s1057.photobucket.com/user/JCwKCredux/media/Oucastanchorcompositeoldandnew_zps0b3539bc.jpg.html)
John,
nice work on the Outcast! Yes, the left bolt is probably a 1/4" split shaft. The right bolt is probably a self-drive which is very hard to remove since there is no way to relieve the expansion in the back of the bolt hole. I would bring a selection of English and Metric hex wrenches. You might be able to remove the bolt head and then patch. If not just get a big crowbar under that thing and heave ho. BTW, that looks like a "Longware" hanger which was designed and manufactured by Yosemite legend Dick Long probably back in the 60's or so.
-
a quicklink on the lead bolts?
can I get a refresh on why it is(was) there?
Rob,
With a screwlink on the 1st bolt you can do the last rappel with a 60m to an excellent stance at that bolt.
You can then go in direct to that bolt and pull just enough rope to thread and rap the last 15-20 feet from the single bolt and pull the rest of the rope from the ground. I have never taken two ropes to that crag.
Kat and I installed that link the first time we did Costanoan and I posted it as an unofficial correction on the author's corrections sticky along with some minor topo corrections.
I also know the walkoff quite well now so I don't have to re-install a link if others don't want it.
The "walkoff" does involve a short section of slabby, fairly steep downclimbing.
It felt like easy 5th class to me when I did it but I didn't put my climbing shoes on.
-
John, nice work on the Outcast anchor. I like that you left the old funky allen bolt and aluminum hanger next to it. Let me know when you go back out to replace the bolts on the route. I'm totally up for going out there again.
Thanks Noal. We typically try to remove and clean up the old stuff but I didn't have my crowbar that day.
I will definitely remove the rusty 1/4" with Leeper and patch it.
If folks feel that allen bolt is a cool piece of history I could just remove the smashlink.
John,
nice work on the Outcast! BTW, that looks like a "Longware" hanger which was designed and manufactured by Yosemite legend Dick Long probably back in the 60's or so.
Bruce - thanks for the removal tips and historical info :)
-
If folks feel that allen bolt is a cool piece of history I could just remove the smashlink.
I think that is a good idea.
Bruce - thanks for the removal tips and historical info :)
Yeah, I'd never known that someone made the "tab" hangers commercially.
-
JC - Are the rap anchors on the Outcast setup so it is possible to TR the steep 5.8 face ( er, I forgot the name of that route ).
-
JC - Are the rap anchors on the Outcast setup so it is possible to TR the steep 5.8 face ( er, I forgot the name of that route ).
I didn't check out the 5.8 TR Back Alley Driver but Brad and I were looking at Rock Naked. I positioned the new anchor to rappel over the Northeast Rib - very similar to the original anchor. It's only about a foot from that old allen bolt so it won't change the character of any of the routes. Brad shows that same anchor on the topo as meant to service all routes. You should be able to set up a TR for any of the routes with a cordalette or other extension. Someone also added a single bolt on the other side of the summit. It looks like a 3/8" wedge with I believe a metolius hanger. I'll take a magnet next time to see if it's stainless or carbon - there's no corrosion on it - looks relatively new. I'll take some pics next time out and document everything. That 3rd bolt is unnecessary with the new anchor but I suppose it could be used to set up a 3 point anchor for topropes. Someone probably added it after seeing the old anchor bolts.
-
Is Catatonic the 5.7?
Done Back Alley on TR.
Thx Brad. :)
-
Back Alley Driver is what I was thinking of. Fun TR or a decent lead. Will probably be a better lead if a few dozen people TR it a few times.
Sounds good.
-
Is Catatonic the 5.7?
5.8 and it's on Knuckle - not Outcast.
-
Ah, I did the Northeast Rib 5.7*, then Back Alley. Brad dragged me out there one trip, or was it Mr Mud? In any event, it looked bad, but climbed pretty ok. Since we were there and there was no chance I was coming back, I took a TR spin on Back Alley belayed from above, as I recall.
Unfortunately, I think there was another trip involving Brad and a the 2nd ascent of Rock Naked. omg, loose as a goose!
-
RE: Longware Hangers
The last bolt we replaced on Feather Canyon had a very rusted Longware hanger. I took it down to my local bike shop and used their wire wheel to remove all the surface rust. There in the middle of the hanger, barely visible, were the initials "LONG" all that was left of the original "LONGWARE" stamp on those hangers.
-
RE: Longware Hangers
The last bolt we replaced on Feather Canyon had a very rusted Longware hanger. I took it down to my local bike shop and used their wire wheel to remove all the surface rust. There in the middle of the hanger, barely visible, were the initials "LONG" all that was left of the original "LONGWARE" stamp on those hangers.
Killer Bruce! Did I missyou replaed some bolts on feather canyon?
-
Killer Bruce! Did I miss you replaced some bolts on feather canyon?
Clint and I replaced all the old bolts on Feather Canyon, 14 in total, except the 3rd bolt on the 3rd pitch(wide chimney) which was added after the FA and is a 3/8" wedge bolt in so-so rock.
-
Clint and I replaced all the old bolts on Feather Canyon, 14 in total, except the 3rd bolt on the 3rd pitch(wide chimney) which was added after the FA and is a 3/8" wedge bolt in so-so rock.
I was going to write something up, but I was in New York City last week attending the launch of the Cannondale-Garmin Pro Cycling team and have been writing a bunch of articles and submitting photos for the magazine which sent me so that has priority.
Thank you Bruce and Clint - I added it to the master list :)
-
Clint and I replaced all the old bolts on Feather Canyon, 14 in total, except the 3rd bolt on the 3rd pitch(wide chimney) which was added after the FA and is a 3/8" wedge bolt in so-so rock.
I was going to write something up, but I was in New York City last week attending the launch of the Cannondale-Garmin Pro Cycling team and have been writing a bunch of articles and submitting photos for the magazine which sent me so that has priority.
Major thanks. Amazing route and a fav of mine. The bolts in the chimney were some of the worst I've clipped.
-
Thanks guys!
-
Here's the skinny on the rebolting of Feather Canyon that Clint and I did. As near as I can tell, all bolts placed by the FA party were a 1/2" diameter stud with internal threads that accepts a 3/8" threaded bolt. As you tighten the bolt you push a pin to the back the stud which expands and provided holding power . It is really hard to replace this type of bolt without causing a huge crater so we unscrewed the bolt, removed the hanger and left the stud in place and patched over it.
It is interesting to note that when we unscrewed these bolts many had been cut to shorten them probably indicating that the bolt tightened up before it was flush with the stud.
All bolts we placed were 3.5"x3/8" SS Rawl(Powers) 5-piece bolts and Petzl Couer hangers.
Pitch 1: on the FA, no bolts were placed at the belay. Sometime, probably in the 90's someone added a single, 3/8" non-SS wedge bolt. More recently, someone took the hanger off that bolt and added two non-SS Rawl(Powers) 5-piece bolts and Fixe single ring hangers to the belay. We didn't touch anything here.
Pitch 2: recently, someone added two non-SS Rawl(Powers) 5-piece bolts. One bolt has a Fixe single ring hanger the other bolt has a 'standard' Fixe hanger. We didn't touch anything here.
Pitch 3: The first bolt you reach was added after the FA. It was a 3/8" Star Dryvin that was improperly placed(only the nail on the outside of the hanger. We replaced it. The second bolt was placed during the FA. We replaced it. The third bolt was a 3/8" wedge bolt, probably added in the 90's. All the rock around the bolt was hollow. Replacing it would have required moving it 6-8 feet and since it was not placed by the FA I left it, but did swap the Leeper hanger for a Petzl. The fourth bolt was placed by the FA so it was replaced.
Pitch 4: the first bolt was a 1/4" Rawl split shaft. It was probably not placed by the FA, but it has been there for a long time and it protects the crux so we replaced it. My guess is that the tree there was a bit higher BITD so that bolt wasn't necessary on the FA. The second bolt was placed by the FA so it was replaced. Next were two studs with no bolts. It is not clear why there were just studs. Most likely the FA party had bolts in them and but were removed maybe because they were running out of hardware higher up. We screwed 3/8" bolts(taken from the previous pitch) into those studs and put Petzl Couer hangers on them. The bolt at the top of the pitch was replaced. That makes five bolts on the crux pitch. Three are SS and the middle two are not.
Pitch 5: We replaced the two bolts placed by the FA party. Clint found a hangerless stud between the two bolts, most likely placed by the FA, and decided to replace it with a SS Powers bolt. That makes three bolts on this pitch.
Pitch 6: no bolts on this pitch(which was good since it was dark by the time we got there on our first attempt to rebolt the route).
Pitch 7: we replaced the single protection bolt. The belay bolt was a 3/8" Star Dryvin which was probably not placed by the FA (it had a SS SMC hanger on it all other SMC hangers on this route were the old, thin, plated variety), but we replaced it anyway as it seemed like a good idea.
Pitch 8: we replaced all three protection bolts on this pitch even though the third bolt was a 3/8" Star Dryvin with a Longware hanger and most likely not placed by the FA. We also replaced the two belay bolts on top of the pitch - the 2nd summit of H&L. One bolt was a 1/4" Rawl split shaft. The other was a very old Star Dryvin bolt most likely placed by Dick Houston and Fritz Lippmann on the FA of H&L in the 40's. It came out very easily!
-
Molto Bene!
-
Begin It Now is completely done - all lead and anchor bolts.
I put the finishing touches on it yesterday.
The rappel puts you down right behind the tree on the walkoff for pitch 1.
-
I think I would have left it with the established walk off.
-
"Walk" ?
-
I think I would have left it with the established walk off.
There was a two bolt anchor at the top which I replaced. It was two 3/8" star dryvins with Leepers - one was 2 1/2" and solid and the other was 2" and bad - the nail pulled with minimal force. There was a 2' sewn mammut runner threaded through the anchors which was looked virtually new. Someone must have been there fairly recently.
I added nothing - I only replaced existing bad hardware.
The walkoff only applies to pitch 1.
There is no walkoff for pitch 2
-
I think Mr. Mud may have misunderstood what go rebolted, that's all. It's not a walk off from the second pitch of Begin It Now, which ends on the actual summit (that's what John rebolted). Where we were sitting with the condors is a walk off, but the second pitch goes to the higher/actual summit and it would require very exposed and undercut fifth class downclimbing to get off from the actual summit.
-
Ok, got it. Thanks.
-
When I did the onsight a couple years ago with Aaron, we saw the anchor but with no chains we opted to do a belayed downclimb using the one old, loose lead bolt since you can unclip it once you make the moves to get below it.
-
I think Mr. Mud may have misunderstood what go rebolted, that's all.
Did I miss something?
He's old and feeble…I get it.
-
He's old and feeble…I get it.
Pot/kettle.
-
well aged.
-
Geez - I was hoping for DIE!
-
Work has me distracted.
-
die
I only do lower case die anymore. :)
-
DIE
-
die
DIE
There's just something about the second one that makes me feel better.
I can start my day now :)
-
very robust
-
Clint and I were up in the Hanging Valley last week where we rebolted both the Toilet Seat and Kasparek's Delight.
Toilet Seat: The guidebook says there are two bolts for an anchor. We found only one(3/8" Star Dryvin). Clint ripped the sling in half with his hands. We put in two bolts plus quick links and a link of chain. The anchors are close to the lip making for a bit of a dicey start of the rappel, but that's the way it was when we found it and it is nice to clip the anchor before making the final moves to the top.
Kasperek's Delight: We replaced both lead bolts. The lower bolt was most likely placed during the first ascent in 1946. The second bolt was most likely placed in the late 60's or early 70's. During the FA in 1946 Ax Nelson and his crew probably used a ring angle pin in the big hole that is just right of the current location of the second bolt. BTW, this hole looks natural. The other hole, below this one looks like it might be man made. We also found what looks to be an old bolt hole about 2 feet below the first bolt. When the rotting boulder that allows clipping the first bolt from the "ground" falls apart it will be dicey with a bad fall getting the first bolt clipped.
On top of the Kasperek's we found seven bolts and the remnants of an eighth bolt. Contrary to what Chuck Richards says in his guidebook, the original anchor bolt placed by Nelson, Houston, etc. was still there. It was the same type of very old version of a Star Dryvin that we also found on H&L (another Houston route) and the top of the first pitch of Chaos Crag. I will post a photo when I get a chance. The other anchor bolt was a 1970's Star Dryvin/Leeper combo. We replace both of these and added quick links and a link of chain for rappel.
Also on top of Kaperek's we found four Star Dryvins, most likely places in the 60's which must have been some sort of bolting practice since they served no purpose we could determine. Also, they were placed incorrectly with only the nail and not the two sleeves on top of the hanger. We removed all four and patched the holes.
Lastly, in yet another Pinnacles mystery we found the remnants of a rappel anchor which was set on the southwest corner(normal rappel anchor on the north east side) of the summit most likely to facilitate a rappel, for some unknown reason, down the largest face of the pinnacle. This anchor was probably placed in the 50's or 60's. One bolt which appeared to be a Star Dryvin was sheared off flush with the rock. The second bolt was also a Star Dryvin with the blade of an old soft steel piton as the hanger. We removed this bolt. I will post a photo of this bolt when I get a chance.
-
Nice Bruce (and Clint!) - I need to get out that way. I updated my master list.
-
@Bruce, there are two routes down that area. One starts off the big boulder that is at the bottom of the long face that is visible from the reservoir. The other one, when looking from the bottom is off to the right of the large face and is one of the most heinous looking things I have seen. I think the bolts have been removed from the face but it is still possible to find the holes. The aid route if I remember correctly is mostly old 1/4" studs and leapers (in loose crumbing mud).
-
the most heinous looking things I have seen
Like a couple of my partners.
-
Here's a photo of several bolts from Kasperek's.
The one on the right is from the FA in 1946. It is a early version of the Star Dryvin. It lacks the lead sleeve which is supposed to increase the holding power(pullout strength of the bolt). As a result this type of bolt is pretty easy to remove.
The one on the left is from the mysterious anchor on the southeast corner of the rock (thanks for the update, 'Mud. That all seems to fit). Notice that the hanger was made by cutting off the blade from an old, soft iron piton and then drilling a couple of holes in it. Also notice the 3/8" cold shut as the final link in the chain. Legendary.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/kasperek_2.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/kasperek_2.jpg.html)
-
If a bolt like the one from 1946 hasn't failed from use by now (although admittedly it's probably used only once a season), the stainless 3/8" bolts we're placing now will be around and good for 250 years.
-
That rusty combo on the left is super cool.
Mud, how far up the face does the route that starts at the boulder go? Every time i walk up the trail that way I look at that face, think how long it is, and go hmmmm.
-
Bruce, What is the length of those 2 Star Dryvin bolts?
-
it goes about 30 feet. There is a section that is loose and kind of blank. It will definitely go but it will be a somewhat difficult. The upper part has three kind of cool looking water streaks.
-
Bruce, What is the length of those 2 Star Dryvin bolts?
The one on the right is 2.5". The one on the left is 2.0"
Bruce
-
A couple of more things from Kasperek's. Clint and I found the remains of the summit register. It was a glass jar with a felt tip marker(good call in the heat of the Pinnacles!) in pieces on the ground near the start of the route. Unfortunately, we didn't find any of the pages.
We also found three cut slings in the gap between the pinnacle and the "ground." Down in the crevice, away from sunlight, they were in pretty good shape, much better shape than the blue, 9/16" sling we found on top which you could rip apart with your bare hands. Metal rappel hardware is the only way to go at the Pinnacles.
-
Bruce, Tol and I replaced the lead bolts and the anchor on Dos Equis and the anchor on Corona yesterday.
Kat and I replaced the anchor on Osiris today.
-
Here is a photo of the four protection bolts from Destiny/Dos Equiis. The first ascent of the route was in 1980. I am guessing that the bolts shown here were part of a rebolting job done 15-20 years ago(1995-2000). I think what is worth noting in this photo is that these bolts have been in a water streak for 15-20 years. The bolts are plated. The hangers on the bolts were stainless steel. Having mixed metals such as these raises the question of galvanic corrosion.
You can see from the photo that three of the four bolts have very little rust. I think this is pretty good evidence that, at least in the Pinnacles, galvanic corrosion from mixed metals is potentially not an issue.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/destiny.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/destiny.jpg.html)
-
I have one of the other short pieces of sleeve and it looks identical to the two pictured.
Were those 3" bolts Bruce? I forgot to compare them to the new stainless we installed.
-
So Clint and I went up to rebolt the Hatchet yesterday and we found all this stuff in the bushes right off the climber's trail around Ridge Rock. Our first thought was that this was from Brad's 900th route celebration then we remembered that the party was up near Tuff Domejavascript :-); The total tally was 43 glass bottle (1-liter versions for Munge and Mud), 46 aluminum cans, 3 tin cans, 13 plastic bottles and 23 oyster shells(!?!?! - no they don't make you climb harder!!!).
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/trash_02_15.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/trash_02_15.jpg.html)
BTW, the Hatchet had already been rebolted using plated 5-piece Rawls/Powers, but it was a fun climb anyway.
Edit: changed "non-plated" to "plated"
-
You can see from the photo that three of the four bolts have very little rust. I think this is pretty good evidence that, at least in the Pinnacles, galvanic corrosion from mixed metals is potentially not an issue.
Good evidence would have the exact date of install. Potentially, yes. Should we use stainless anyways. Yes.
-
So Clint and I went up to rebolt the Hatchet yesterday and we found all this stuff in the bushes right off the climber's trail around Ridge Rock. Our first thought was that this was from Brad's 900th route celebration then we remembered that the party was up near Tuff Domejavascript :-); The total tally was 43 glass bottle (1-liter versions for Munge and Mud), 46 aluminum cans, 3 tin cans, 13 plastic bottles and 23 oyster shells(!?!?! - no they don't make you climb harder!!!).
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/trash_02_15.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/trash_02_15.jpg.html)
BTW, the Hatchet had already been rebolted using non-plated 5-piece Rawls/Powers, but it was a fun climb anyway.
Holey moley!
-
I have one of the other short pieces of sleeve and it looks identical to the two pictured.
Were those 3" bolts Bruce? I forgot to compare them to the new stainless we installed.
Yes. Those bolts were 3".
-
Good evidence would have the exact date of install. Potentially, yes. Should we use stainless anyways. Yes.
Agreed!
-
JC,
for your rebolting list, about a month ago, I replaced the 2nd protection bolt on the 3rd pitch of Machete Direct(old 3/8" Star Dryvin) with a 5-piece SS Powers/Rawl.
-
Are you sure they do not make you climb harder, wink wink nod nod.
-
Also, thank you for hauling all of that stuff out of there.
-
JC,
for your rebolting list, about a month ago, I replaced the 2nd protection bolt on the 3rd pitch of Machete Direct(old 3/8" Star Dryvin) with a 5-piece SS Powers/Rawl.
Got it. I updated the list on page 4 to include this, Ridge Rock and the Hatchet
BTW, the Hatchet had already been rebolted using non-plated 5-piece Rawls/Powers, but it was a fun climb anyway.
By non-plated on the Hatchet do you mean galvanized rather than zinc plated?
Now I am confused b/c you posted plated on the corrections thread?
-
JC,
sorry for the confusion! I meant plated(AKA non-stainless).
-
JC,
sorry for the confusion! I meant plated(AKA non-stainless).
Gotcha Bruce - thanks! - I figured your second post was correct but just wanted to clarify.
Btw - it looks like you guys hit the motherlode of all party spots at Pinns - thanks for taking the time and effort to clean up that mess!
-
Oysters? Really?
No BudLite Lime,whew.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/trash_02_15.jpg)
-
There were a couple of Bud Lite Lime cans in there. We dusted for Munge's prints but there was no match!
-
Yesterday J.C. finished replacing the last bolt on The Outcast (the whole formation, not just one route). In other words, between J.C. and Clink, every bolt on every route on the formation (ten or a dozen bolts?) are now bright, long stainless, 3/8 inch A.S.C.A. bolts. All this in only the last five weeks.
All but one of the replacements were installed in the original holes. Some of the old bolts were extremely rusty, 1 1/4 inch long, quarter inch buttonheads (which tells me that when I led all of those climbs, i did it on illusory pro). The ones that weren't were garbage of other types. I'd ask him to post some photos here of these ancient, crappy "things."
That's a lot of work starting with a 45 minute approach carrying all the bolting gear and all the bolt removal (heavy) steel.
Thanks.
As a side note, after he replaced the last bolt yesterday, he did one of the best leads I've ever seen him do - he led my first first ascent flawlessly (Catatonic Stupor, which I put up with Vicki in 1991, before we were even married!). I'd forgoten how heads up this route is, with five bolts in 110 feet, a fair amount of loose rock, and some great exposure (yeah, five, you read that right - the guidebook says six, but it is in error regarding my own route :redface: ). I really had no memory of how bold that damn thing was (the folly of youth or some such).
And talking about fine leads, while we were all there, Gavin did a strong lead of Mr. Mud's own route The Agony of Defeat (5.10a my ass). As is normal when someone does one of Dennis' routes on Knuckle Ridge, there were several rounds of "5.10a my ass," and "what the hell was he thinking running it out that far." You know, all the normal stuff about routes put up by a beyond the normal guy ;D
-
beyond the normal guy
Nice.
-
He is probably the 4th or 5th person to lead that 10a. Funny I do not remember that one being runout. I was thinking it was kind of short. The name was supposed to be Agony of DaFeet because I had a pair of shoes that were a bit to small.
-
He is probably the 4th or 5th person to lead that 10a. Funny I do not remember that one being runout. I was thinking it was kind of short. The name was supposed
>:( of course you don't remember, because to you it was a sport climb :P I walked underneath a few of those and shook my head. Nice area
-
Yeah, good times at Knuckle Ridge yesterday. Agony of Defeat is definitely a bold line... I'm glad I was able to onsight it. I would call it a bit runout at least to the first bolt, and very committing. A few others top-roped the line and we all felt it was harder than 5.10a, at least 5.10b. (That includes kyqueener, nelkins, and Brad.)
-
We did not see a way to get a bolt in before we did, how it was we took a few tumbles down the hill trying to get that first bolt in. Up higher there was a hollow section then this whole sheet I was standing on slid off, the route cleaned up better after that though.
Maybe it was just a high gravity day for you guys ;)
-
Hollow section in your head.
-
That slid loose a long time ago as well but is still rattling around in there.
-
Nice job Gavin! Heady space on a sandbag. Solid work!
-
how it was we took a few tumbles down the hill trying to get that first bolt in.
Yikes!
I always read too much into route names. When I first looked at the name Agony of Defeat the imagery of the ski jumper eating it in the intro to ABC wide world of sports popped into my head. After looking at the start ,the distance to the first bolt, and the fall down the hill.....
-
Notice that Dennis hasn't acknowledged that the route is at least 5.10b. In fact he still called it 5.10a.
It's normal for him though, he always does that. Probably a direct result of too many tumbles down the hill :P
-
I have never hit my head ( that I remember anyway ).
-
Yikes!
I always read too much into route names. When I first looked at the name Agony of Defeat the imagery of the ski jumper eating it in the intro to ABC wide world of sports popped into my head. After looking at the start ,the distance to the first bolt, and the fall down the hill.....
Nice imagery. RTNW :)
-
Who in our generation can forget that ski jumper. Stuck in my brain.
-
Yesterday J.C. finished replacing the last bolt on The Outcast (the whole formation, not just one route). In other words, between J.C. and Clink, every bolt on every route on the formation (ten or a dozen bolts?) are now bright, long stainless, 3/8 inch A.S.C.A. bolts. All this in only the last five weeks.
Nice work guys! Thanks!
-
Nice work guys! Thanks!
No problem Bruce. I have my eye on a lot of other stuff out there that needs attention.
Should be able to deploy some more shiny replacements soon.
-
Last week Clint and I were doing some random rebolting/cleanup. We replaced the 1/4" Rawl on the 4th class route on Tiburcio's. We replaced a Leeper on top of the formation with a Petzl. We also replaced some Leeper hangers with SS Petzls on the top of the Monolith where the Northest Corner comes up. Lastly, Clint found an old bolt about 20 feet right and 5 feet higher than the 2nd bolt on the Direct Route on the Monolith. It is a 1/2" 'Drop-in" (same bolts we found on Feather Canyon). We replaced the chromoly SMC hanger with a SS SMC hanger.
-
Clint and I were rebolting on the Sew What Needles yesterday. The rock on these needles, as described accurately in the guidebook, is totally suspect. We replaced the Leeper hanger on the first bolt of the Needle's Edge on the North Needle with a SS Petzl. We didn't replace the bolt for two reasons. First off, the rock all around that area is bad. Secondly, the bolt is low enough on route that it only protects the one traverse move (basically a top rope).
We replaced the bolt on Needle's Eye which can(and should) be clipped by those also climbing the 5.7 face route. We replace the two belay bolts at the optional belay. We also replaced one of the top anchor bolts(the other was a new-looking plated 5-piece Powers). There were chains on top for rappel. Bolts on this formation were either 3/8" Star Dryvins or 3/8" Rawl Split Shafts.
On the Middle Needle we replaced the lone 1/4" bolt with two 3/8" SS Powers and added quick links and chin links for rappel.
Someone has rebolted the top anchor on the South Needle. They also added quick links and chains for rappel.
-
There is some good rock there if you look real hard.
-
There is some good rock there if you look real hard.
Real hard. Not a good formation.
Dennis and I added a new bolt to that existing Sew What South summit anchor about 12 or 13 years ago. We felt that that one added bolt brought it up to an "adequate" condition. I later put the chains on those bolts. Does that sound like what you saw up there Bruce?
-
Real hard. Not a good formation.
Dennis and I added a new bolt to that existing Sew What South summit anchor about 12 or 13 years ago. We felt that that one added bolt brought it up to an "adequate" condition. I later put the chains on those bolts. Does that sound like what you saw up there Bruce?
That would be the bolt. Also on the summit we removed an old Star Dryvin with a thin, small-hole Leeper hanger and we took the SMC plated, thin, chrome-moly hanger off the other bolt(a very rusted 3/8" Rawl Split shaft). We would have removed the Rawl but it was in a hole and my 3/8" tuning fork would have made a huge mess getting it out.
BTW, sometimes the 3/8" Rawl split shafts are pretty good and we just replace the old hanger, usually a Leeper or a thin, SMC, chrome-moly with a SS hanger. Unfortunately, the bolts on this formation had really munged threads on the end of the bolt so that was a very iffy proposition. In that case, we try to use the 3/8 tuning fork(which is starting to crack, undoubtedly from the major hits put on it by JC) while the nut and hanger are still on. If that fails we remove the nut which usually strips the threads of the nut and take the hanger.
-
It sounds like you guys got everything except the hangerless bolt on Threadbare. I updated the master list.
After a conversation with Brad some months back I wrote in ink in my guidebook on Needles' Eye - "Stay Away"
Bummer about the Gonzo tuning fork!
-
It sounds like you guys got everything except the hangerless bolt on Threadbare. I updated the master list.
After a conversation with Brad some months back I wrote in ink in my guidebook on Needles' Eye - "Stay Away"
Bummer about the Gonzo tuning fork!
Hey, Needles Eye is an absolute must do.
-
It sounds like you guys got everything except the hangerless bolt on Threadbare. I updated the master list.
After a conversation with Brad some months back I wrote in ink in my guidebook on Needles' Eye - "Stay Away"
Bummer about the Gonzo tuning fork!
JC,
not sure if the hangerless bolt on Threadbare really protects anything meaningful. After you get out of the chimney it would be a pretty ugly fall back into it if you came off. Having said that it could probably stand to be replaced.
-
a pretty ugly fall back into it if you came off
This is a test.
-
JC,
not sure if the hangerless bolt on Threadbare really protects anything meaningful. After you get out of the chimney it would be a pretty ugly fall back into it if you came off. Having said that it could probably stand to be replaced.
Isn't reflection wonderful?
-
He is probably the 4th or 5th person to lead that 10a. Funny I do not remember that one being runout. I was thinking it was kind of short. The name was supposed to be Agony of DaFeet because I had a pair of shoes that were a bit to small.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c241/jaybro_1956/vedauwoo%20bugaloo/DSCN2193.jpg)
jaybro pic
-
nice drawing
-
Clink and I rebolted The Mollusk today - it now has a new lead bolt and a new anchor with chains.
The lone lead bolt came out disturbingly easy (a 2 1/2" star dryvin). One of the anchor bolts(another 2 1/2" star dryvin) also came out easier than expected - the whole thing came out in a single pull - including the lead sleeve. The other anchor bolt was a 1 7/8" long 1/4" split shaft showing no evidence of compression. There was an array of rotten slings that required no knife (easily torn by hand) and a single aluminum rap ring - Garbage out - stainless in - good for another century...
-
Clink and I rebolted The Mollusk today - it now has a new lead bolt and a new anchor with chains.
The lone lead bolt came out disturbingly easy (a 2 1/2" star dryvin). One of the anchor bolts(another 2 1/2" star dryvin) also came out easier than expected - the whole thing came out in a single pull - including the lead sleeve. The other anchor bolt was a 1 7/8" long 1/4" split shaft showing no evidence of compression. There was an array of rotten slings that required no knife (easily torn by hand) and a single aluminum rap ring - Garbage out - stainless in - good for another century...
You gotta love those Star Dryvins and 1/4" split shafts. We should all be on our 5th or 6th life by now. Thanks guys!
-
Bruce or Waldo, are the Star Dryvins measured by the nail or shaft for length?
-
Bruce or Waldo, are the Star Dryvins measured by the nail or shaft for length?
That's a good question. I have seen a lot of Star Dryvins where the nail was clearly shortened(cut off) to the same length as the sleeves. I have also seen a lot of Star Dryvins where the nail is up to 1/2" longer than the sleeves. Bottom line... I have seen too many Star Dryvins.
-
Just a quick observation on the proper size of Quick Links to use on chain. I have placed and removed my fair share of quick links over the years from 1/4" to 1/2" in diameter. What I have found is that anything less than 3/8" can have problems if the threads are rusted or clogged with grit. Smaller than 3/8" there is a good possibility that if you have to really torque on the wrench you can bend the quick link in such a way that you won't be able to screw it back together if you want to use it.
Therefore, these days, I am trying to use 3/8" quick links wherever possible.
-
Clint and I went up and finished rebolting on the Sew What Needles. I sucked it up and was able to get out the 3/8" Rawl split shaft (second protection bolt on the South Needle) and we replaced the chain setup on top of the South Needle with quick links and 3/8" chain. We found the hangerless bolt mentioned in the description of Threadbare on the Middle Needle. It turns out that the bolt is actually on the wall of the chimney on the South Needle. We replaced that bolt.
We went over to Pipsqueak Pinnacle (nice new trail thanks to the volunteers at PCAD 2014!) and replaced the Leeper hangers on the three protection bolts and one anchor bolt on the Regular Route with SS Petzls. The route had been rebolted some years ago by an unknown party using 3/8" x 3" plated Rawl/Powers 5-piece bolts. They all looked in very good shape.
-
Clint and I were rebolting over in the Hanging Valley. We replaced the four bolts on the North Goal Post and two bolts on top of the South Goal Post. BTW, all six of these bolts were Star Dryvins and all them were improperly installed with the sleeves underneath the hanger. Two of the bolts in the photo below were installed with the sleeves below the hanger because whomever put then in used a 1/4" hole hanger and only the nail will fit through that small of a hole. Also, for some reason, the nails were bent indicating that whomever was placing them had some trouble getting them all the way into the drilled hole.
The four Star Dryvins on the North Goal Post were the shorties(2"). The two on the South Goal Post were long ones(2.5"), but they were placed about four feet apart so who knows what that was all about. We put quick links and chain links on both anchors for rappel.
We then went over to Hidden Pinnacles and replaced the two lead bolts and two anchor bolts. All of then were the old, aluminum-sleeved Star Dryvin like we found on Kaspareks and H&L. Unlike those locations, these bolts were very hard to remove. Also, does anyone know the make or manufacturer of the hangers(on the right in the photo). We added quick links and chain links to the anchor for rappel.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/hidden_pinnacle.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/hidden_pinnacle.jpg.html)
-
Clint and I were rebolting over in the Hanging Valley.
We then went over to Hidden Pinnacles
I'm getting rebolters envy :)
Thanks for getting rid of those dangerously placed stars. I updated the list.
We'll have to work our way over to that valley when we get enough of being deserted and neglected!
-
Kat and I rebolted the anchor on Little Flatiron today.
Brad's book does not say what's up there.
Rubine's 1995 book said 1/4" bolts with chains - WRONG! Not surprising since he also describes both routes on the formation as chimneys. The regular route in no way resembles a chimney - Brad's description of it is accurate.
There was one star dryvin with a thin Leeper hanger and a smash link. The star dryvin was improperly installed - just like the ones Bruce posted about in Hanging Valley. The sleeve was UNDER the hanger and also like what Bruce and Clint found - the nail was bent (indicating a too shallow hole) and the sleeve was mangled under the hanger. We installed a new two bolt anchor with chains set to rappel over the Regular Route.
-
I provided support for Jon, Noal and Missy while they climbed and rebolted the anchor on Toadstool today. There was one old star dryvin with an smc hanger and a real piece of history for the other bolt. It was a drilled out piton with a button head/rivet style bolt. Jon removed the star dryvin and patched the hole. The three mudstateers then proceeded to drill two new holes and placed a new anchor with chains. The old piton was left in place. Missy is supposed to send some pics.
-
Bruce or Waldo, are the Star Dryvins measured by the nail or shaft for length?
Clink, Jack and I always cut the ends off the Star nails. That way they were 1 & 7/8s inches from the top of the sleeve to the bottom.
-
I hope a pic of that pin/hager gets posted. It was an unusual pin. We had a "what would Bruce and Clint do?" discusion. Although few people will climb the Toadstool, the old pin will be a treat to see. Pulling and replacing old bolts is more complicated and intriguing than I imagined it would be. The relevance of the history of these early climbs at Pinnacles, as we repeat and restore them 50+ years later, is something to contemplate. Noal was referring to the references to "shoulder stands" on these freestanding and undercut pinnacles in his 1966 Roper guide.
I have seen more knobs slung for "pro" in the last couple months than in my whole prior 35 years of climbing combined. Cook made me laugh yesterday when he commented that slinging knobs may only insure that a pile of rocks lands on you after cratering.
-
Interesting to mention the use of slings. There was a time when I always carried a couple for tie offs. Now I rarely carry them. I think it was a good habit.
-
Noal was referring to the references to "shoulder stands" on these freestanding and undercut pinnacles in his 1966 Roper guide.
I got the routes flip flopped. Toadstool is rated 5.8 (no shoulder stand) and it says something like "make difficult moves for the first 10 feet." and I think if mentions another spot where you could do a shoulder stand and not have to do the chimney. The Mollusk
is rated 5.4 with a shoulder stand.
Toadstool=oldschool cool.
-
Noal onsighted the burly 5.8 solo on Toadstool - I'm still trying to figure out how the heck he did it!
clink and Noal drilled the new anchor
Original single bolt anchor on Toadstool - left for the sake of history - this thing is cool!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8561/16780055051_7446678140_z.jpg)
Missy has a request in for a screen name so I'll let her post anything else she likes - the above is a pic she took :)
-
I think that was approved.
-
Hello Mud n Crud. Thanks for the add, I'll put the rest of the pictures in the gallery.
-
nice handle Missy and welcome to the Forum :)
-
Yes, welcome Missy.
-
Welcome to the Forum.
I am not sure if there is any space in the MudnCrud Gallery. We may have to spin up another one.
-
What gallery?
-
That was a bomer bolt
(http://i1057.photobucket.com/albums/t395/JCwKCredux/20150308_143832_zpsnmggepa2.jpg)
-
Thanks! I just put up the pictures here for anyone who is interested.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131811001@N07/sets/72157651274830332/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/131811001@N07/sets/72157651274830332/)
Thanks JC for the captions.
EDIT by JC 8-22-20 - click on the link for all Missy's pics - re-posting a few choice ones here. Random dirt bag...pfffft!
JC leads Little Flatiron to get the day started.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7592/16593617508_fd8f454693_z.jpg)
Noal leads Toadstool
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7637/16593815410_b3ebb4ff15_z.jpg)
Missy takes a turn drilling
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8574/16780056581_39d3bcd305_z.jpg)
Noal and Missy having a laugh
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8738/16158882544_8a2fe421e9_z.jpg)
Noal and clink drilling the replacement anchor
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7638/16161268883_d6ed54e574_z.jpg)
-
That was exactly the right call too, leaving that old bolt.
-
^^yeah that thing is super cool. Can anybody make out the letters stamped on it? I didn't notice them until looking at the photo.
-
^^yeah that thing is super cool. Can anybody make out the letters stamped on it? I didn't notice them until looking at the photo.
Looks like CBAR
-
That was exactly the right call too, leaving that old bolt.
++
-
mudncrud gallery.
-
Very cool stuff on the Toadstool! Good call on leaving the bolted piton. That seems like the right decision in that situation.
Clint and I were rebolting in the Hanging Valley yesterday.
We put in a 2-bolt anchor on the Wad with quick links and chains. The only bolt on top looked like a very well-placed 3/8" Rawl split shaft. Too bad it was in a very poor location so we took the old Leper hanger off of it.
We replaced the single bolt anchor(3/8" Star Dryvin) on top of Nip and Tuck and added a second bolt with quick links and chains. We replaced the hangerless bolt(1/4" Rawl split shaft) which protects the crux.
We replaced the bolt(3/8" Star Dryvin) on top of the route 'Obvious' on Teeter Tower. We added a new rappel anchor on the east/uphill side of the pinnacle at the base of the balanced ball with quick links and chains for rappel. This looked to be the best place for an anchor especially since the ball looks like it will head west if it goes especially if someone is foolish enough to try to climb all the way to the top.
We replaced the two belay bolts(3/8" Star Dryvins) at the base of The Driver and replaced the anchor bolt(3/8" Star Dryvin) and added a second anchor bolt with quick links and chains for rappel.
-
All this rebolting going on reminds me of why (unlike David) I didn't put information about the types of bolts that are/were on routes in the 2007 guidebook. It was changing then and is changing even more now (and for the better).
-
Nothing wrong with incomplete. I can't think of other guides that ever even tried. And pinnacles is a place where that attempt was very helpful.
-
I'll update the master list tomorrow Bruce.
Sounds like much of The Hanging Valley is "Cook proof".
Too bad we can't get Billy Goats to eat all the PO.
You guys are doing great things.
-
Nothing wrong with incomplete
Trying to start a new TR-not-FA rant?
-
Nothing wrong with incomplete. I can't think of other guides that ever even tried. And pinnacles is a place where that attempt was very helpful.
I agree completely (no criticism of David intended at all). It was just that the rebolting efforts were really picking up by the time I got going and I felt like any list made then would quickly become obsolete.
-
I agree completely (no criticism of David intended at all). It was just that the rebolting efforts were really picking up by the time I got going and I felt like any list made then would quickly become obsolete.
JC removed his post that my comment was in reply to.
-
This looked to be the best place for an anchor especially since the ball looks like it will head west if it goes especially if someone is foolish enough to try to climb all the way to the top.
How big is the ball?
Brad, did you touch the top?
-
Noal and I rebolted Lion's Head today after I led it.
The formation had another of those cool single drilled piton with giant rivet (same as Toadstool)
There was also a rusty, smashed end 3/8" wedge or split shaft with a paper thin Leeper.
I left the former in place and attempted to remove the latter - which ended up snapping off.
For an encore Aaron led Catatonic Stupor and Darkness Within.
The heat was sweltering - luckily there was a nice breeze most of the time and some overcast part of the time.
-
Clink, I'd have to go out and see the formation again to determine if I touched the top, and also to determine if I would have felt then that touching the top was necessary to make the route complete.
If I felt it was necessary to touch the top to make the route complete, I would have touched the top for sure.
Nice job on the rebolting campaign. "Sweltering heat" doesn't sound good though. I hope it cools off for my trip down there next Saturday though Monday.
(Plus we just had two more cords of firewood delivered up here - although that will keep until next year if that's what the weather decides to do.)
-
In case anyone doubted the extreme public good that comes from all these rebolting efforts, here's a link to an on-topic Supertopo thread (a 44 year old climber died there last week after a 5/16 inch button head bolt failed):
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2595487/Broken-bolt-in-Owens-5-16-buttonhead
But I doubt anyone here actually doubts that extreme public good.
-
Clint and I finished up rebolting in the Hanging Valley/Kasparek's Ridge area. Based on the information in the Rubine guide and Brad's book it looked like we missed one bolt on the top of Teeter Tower (one bolt on top of 'Obvious' and one bolt on top of 'Original'). We re-climbed the pinnacle and after a lot of looking around the entire base of the 'ball' could only find the one bolt at the top of the crack on 'Obvious' which we rebolted last week.
We then went over to Sorcerer's Slab and replaced the bolt there(3/8" Star Dryvin, homemade aluminum hanger).
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/sorcerer.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/sorcerer.jpg.html)
-
interesting little thread:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/pinnacles-route-history/110208434
-
Good Info.
Thank you
-
Here is a page out of the Ski Hut catalogue circa 1968. As per the discussion about Longware hangers see hanger #4 and it's description.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/longware.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/longware.jpg.html)
-
On 4-11-15 Kat and I spent some time working on the Sponge. I replaced the hangers and added SS washers on the 5.0 after inspecting the bolts. I removed a 3rd “off-route” bolt Kat found while leading the route. It was about four feet up and right of bolt 2. Replacing that bolt didn’t make any sense. It was a 2 ½” long 3/8”split shaft way under-drilled and a few inches right of another snapped off bolt (couldn’t tell what kind). I suspect these two bolts may have been the original location for bolt 2 – but the rock quality was terrible - as was all the surrounding rock – hollow and dull sounding. I suspect whoever rebolted this route with 5 piece Rawls moved bolt 2 down to get it in good rock.
The Sponge anchor consisted of two bolts with chains – one star dryvin and one 5 piece Rawl (carbon steel). There was also an extra bolt with a homemade tab hanger.
I removed the extra bolt (star dryvin with aluminum tab hanger) and then replaced the existing star dryvin anchor bolt. Both of the existing anchor bolts had loose hangers. The 5 piece anchor bolt was in good shape. I removed and inspected it and replaced the washer. The bolt is solid and tight but hanger remains a little loose.
I put the old chain back on the new bolt (ASCA stamped powder coated hanger).
I replaced the hanger and added a SS washer on the first bolt of the 5.6 Left Side route (Bruce and Clint hadn’t done it b/c they ran out of hangers).
On 4-12-15 clink and I worked on Burgundy Dome.
I led the 4th class Regular Route and was surprised to discover an old bolt (a rusty 2 ½”star dryvin with Leeper Hanger) at the top of the “pillar” between the two summits. This bolt is not listed in the guidebook. clink replaced the bolt when he followed the route. The entire assembly pulled out in one piece and clink said it was probably the worst bolt he has ever seen at Pinns – in terms of placing a bolt in bad rock. None of the rock anywhere near it was acceptable for installing a replacement. The only suitable rock was on one of the two walls. We decided the left wall might cause people to go to the wrong summit. The right wall had a section of good rock where a bolt would provide protection for the step across to the true summit. clink had to stem across to drill but he got it done. I should also mention that we both thought the starting moves on this route are 5.5 and the upper parts of the route can be protected with medium to large cams.
After clink came up I tied off the rope and rapped a single strand down Vin Ordinaire to check it out. The top bolt was an inch and a half ¼” compression bolt/split shaft on a modern hanger (smc). It came out with a few taps of the tuning fork – no crowbar needed. The shaft was in poor quality rock one inch and showed no evidence of compression. I didn’t drill the hole out because the rock quality was bad. I found good rock about 6 inches up and right and drilled a new hole. The first bolt was a decent looking star dryvin. Bob said he and Jack had replaced that bolt about 25 years ago. I replaced it with shiny new stainless steel.
I’ve updated the master list. I plan to lead Vin Ordinaire soon.
-
Thank you
-
Thank you
You bet :)
A labor of love :)
-
JC,
nice work on the Sponge and Burgundy!
Bruce
-
I ran into Mark Fletcher on the SuperTopo forum and asked him about his rebolting activities at the Pinnacles. He said that he sent all his rebolting information to Clint back then(I am checking with Clint) and that he stopped doing rebolting back then because people were criticizing some of his work and also some of the new hardware he was installing (his own money, back before sponsorship from ASCA or ARI) was being taken.
Thank heavens people are embracing rebolting nowadays and also that ASCA and ARI is providing hardware!
-
Thank heavens people are embracing rebolting nowadays
Certainly beats embracing Mother Earth at terminal velocity.
-
Last Thursday Clint and I did some rebolting on Machete. We climbed the Old Original(someone has added a 3/8" 5-piece plated bolt and hanger at the very start of the route) over to the top of Bill's Bad Bolts. I replaced one bolt on the first pitch (1/4" Star Dryvin), four bolts on the 2nd pitch (three - 1/4" Star Dryvin; one - 3/8" Star Dryvin) and one bolt on the third pitch(3/8" Star Dryvin). I also removed two bolts from the belay at the top of the first pitch (two- 3/8" Star Dryvin), one bolt from the belay at the top of the second pitch (3/8" Star Dryvin) and one bolt from the belay on the third pitch(3/8" Star Dryvin). There are two good bolts at each belay.
I also replaced the third and fourth bolts on the Bill's Bad Bolts Direct Finish. Now, all five bolts are stainless 5-piece. The fourth bolt was a bit odd. It looked like a 5-piece Rawl/Powers, but it wasn't. I have attached a photo of the two bolts. You can see the threads on the actual 5-piece Rawl/Powers are more coarse and it is 1/2" longer. Also, the sleeve on the odd bolt was aluminum and not steel. The marking on the head of the odd bolt was LE. It is probably a Lake Erie Products Grade 8 bolt. Hmmm.
Clint was a busy beaver as well. He built an anchor and rappelled down Daedalus. He replaced the two belay bolts at the top of the second pitch. He replaced the three protection bolts and two belay bolts on the third pitch. The only bolts we haven't replaced on this route are the first 6 bolts (of 7) in the aid ladder. We will get to that sooner or later.
All in all we replaced 15 bolts and removed 4 extra bolts.
One thing I learned was that if you hit your finger with your hammer multiple times it really starts to hurt, a lot!
In the photo below, the top seven bolts are from Daedalus.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/machete_04_15.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/machete_04_15.jpg.html)
Here is the odd bolt on the left, 5-piece Rawl/Powers on the right.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/odd_bolt.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/odd_bolt.jpg.html)
-
Bruce, great work. Actually, great, great work.
But I'm confused about two things:
- Did you replace any bolts on Old Original, or did you just use that to access the other routes and replace bolts on those?
- The bolt at "the start" of Old Original is really at the start (i.e. it could be clipped from the ground)?
-
Clint was a busy beaver as well. He built an anchor and rappelled down Daedalus. He replaced the two belay bolts at the top of the second pitch. He replaced the three protection bolts and two belay bolts on the third pitch. The only bolts we haven't replaced on this route are the first 6 bolts (of 7) in the aid ladder. We will get to that sooner or later.
Also, since at some point you two will work on the Daedalus bolt ladder, and since Clint has frequently contacted Glen Denny regarding his Pinns climbing, should we bring up the subject of the fallen pine tree with him (while he's still around to bring it up with!)? "We" of course means Clint in this context ;D
Recall that the start of the first pitch of Daedalus is a "chimney" between the pine and the wall. A climber then breaks up and right toward the first bolt. With the tree down now I don't know if that chimneying can be done. Maybe an actual rock climbing direct start is needed now? But before, when the tree was intact, one could tie off the tree near the end of the chimneying, and even with that it was still a serious run from there to the first bolt. If a real climbing direct start were to be attempted (aid or free - it would be interesting to see what would and wouldn't go), it might only be feasible with an added bolt (or more if it needed a ladder). Obviously no-one would ever add a bolt or bolts though without the permission of the FA party.
Would Clint be willing to raise the subject with Glen?
-
All in all we replaced 15 bolts and removed 4 extra bolts.
A ton of work, thanks.
-
Would Clint be willing to raise the subject with Glen?
Brad,
actually, I have been spending some time with Glen. I was up at his place in SF a few weeks ago looking over his latest project. His book of B/W images that came out a few years ago started with an article I was writing about Glen for Climbing magazine. His next project should be just as good!
I sent Glen the first four bolts Clint and I replaced on Daedalus so he knows we are working on it. Do you have a proposal for what to do about the first pitch?
-
Bruce, great work. Actually, great, great work.
But I'm confused about two things:
- Did you replace any bolts on Old Original, or did you just use that to access the other routes and replace bolts on those?
- The bolt at "the start" of Old Original is really at the start (i.e. it could be clipped from the ground)?
Brad,
we only used the Old Original for the approach. Over the years we have been replacing the bolts that needed it(mostly on the rappels). All are 3/8" though some are clearly better than others. The 2nd bolt on the 1st pitch is pretty rusty, but it is completely unnecessary and kind of puts the rope in a bad location for the second. It was probably added after the FA. The last bolt on the 3rd pitch is rusty as well, but it is a 3/8" and the climbing there is really, really easy. It was probably added long after the FA.
The bolt at the start of the route is about one foot off the ground. It looks like it was placed as a belay anchor.
Bruce
-
The bolt at the start of the route is about one foot off the ground. It looks like it was placed as a belay anchor.
I must be starting p1 of OO in the wrong place :)
Geez - rebolting around Bruce and Clint is like playing guitar next to Al Di Meola!
You guys are incredible!!! :)
Those baby star dryvs are wee little fellars :)
-
Attempt a free version, adding bolts as high as the tree would allow.
Failing a free set of moves direct, moves in from the right could be connected.
If that is contrived, a bolt ladder, since the route already has one? This should be a last resort unless Glen has some specific thoughts.
One thing I learned was that if you hit your finger with your hammer multiple times it really starts to hurt, a lot!
:)
-
Brad,
actually, I have been spending some time with Glen. I was up at his place in SF a few weeks ago looking over his latest project. His book of B/W images that came out a few years ago started with an article I was writing about Glen for Climbing magazine. His next project should be just as good!
I sent Glen the first four bolts Clint and I replaced on Daedalus so he knows we are working on it. Do you have a proposal for what to do about the first pitch?
Nice Bruce. I've told him that, with one exception, all the bolts that I've clipped that those two placed are solid still to this day (and the one exception was on a bolt ladder with no good rock within reach).
I'll bet he'll be tickled to get the old bolts back.
On that first pitch, I agree with Rob, that Glen (and Gary if he's interested) should get the first thoughts. But the route is 5.8 A1 and it would be a shame to do a relatively run out 5.11 start (as an example) thus changing an old, historic route into something it's never been.
It's been a long time since Factor and I did the route, but I suspect that - to keep it in the 5.8 A1 range - it'd take a three or four bolt aid bolt ladder to get to about where one used to get to with the tree/Chimney. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me (we'll see if Glen agrees ;) ).
BTW, does anyone know of a third ascent of the route? It's pretty out there run-out, but with new bolts it may be less of a scarefest.
-
Geez - rebolting around Bruce and Clint is like playing guitar next to Al Di Meola!
You guys are incredible!!! :)
Now, now. From each according to their abilities and to each according to their needs. They contribute one hell of a lot to the whole Pinns rebolting effort. But don't lose sight of the fact that you and Kat do too!
-
...moves in from the right could be connected....
I think the headwall is steep enough, far enough to the right that coming in from that side wouldn't gain anything but a weird, almost horizontal traverse.
No doubt that, if something is done, it needs to be by an expert (most of whom are on this site, reading this) ;D
Makes me kinda glad that Factor and I got the second ascent though, kinda like having done the Royal Arches route in The Valley using the famous "rotten log." (Although I missed that by three months when I climbed the route in 1984.)
-
It's been a long time since Factor and I did the route, but I suspect that - to keep it in the 5.8 A1 range - it'd take a three or four bolt aid bolt ladder to get to about where one used to get to with the tree/Chimney. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me (we'll see if Glen agrees Wink ).
Agreed, it will take 3-4, and they can be stretchers after the 1st...
Yeah, I dreamed of floating up as a free version....but reality is it's undercut/ steep.
We could replant another tree and wait.
-
We could replant another tree and wait.
:D :D
-
Now, now. From each according to their abilities and to each according to their needs. They contribute one hell of a lot to the whole Pinns rebolting effort. But don't lose sight of the fact that you and Kat do too!
I second that sentiment. I really appreciate all the rebolting efforts. It's a lot of hard work! They never taught me how to climb with a crowbar when I took Basic Rockcraft:-)
-
I should add that now Bill's Bad Bolts has all stainless on pitches 2 &3. The long bolt ladder on pitch 1 still is a mix of the good, the bad and the ugly. The only bolt I replaced on this latest effort was the last bolt just before you do the 20' of 5.6 to the belay. The old bolt was a 1/4" Star Dryvin. I figured if you got that far and the junk held you deserve to breathe a little easier.
-
Do you have a proposal for what to do about the first pitch?
I have been spending some time with Glen.
Calling all of Machete's first ascensionist for a treeless ascent- Waldo, Glen, Gary, Bruce, the Mud's, Brad, Jim, Clint, F4, Munge, Larry... (or leave it as is and use an extra long stick clip).
-
I should add that now Bill's Bad Bolts has all stainless on pitches 2 &3. The long bolt ladder on pitch 1 still is a mix of the good, the bad and the ugly. The only bolt I replaced on this latest effort was the last bolt just before you do the 20' of 5.6 to the belay. The old bolt was a 1/4" Star Dryvin. I figured if you got that far and the junk held you deserve to breathe a little easier.
I'm all for breathing easier! Thanks for your great work, Bruce! I'll confess now that there was a fixed pin (a medium angle) halfway up the 2nd pitch. I decided it was at best psychological pro and took it out twenty years ago, or so. It's protecting my old Pinnacles climbing guides now.
-
If there is a line that can be done free that should have precedence even if that means the aid is somewhat suboptimal.
-
The coveted first free of tree ascent.
-
If there is a line that can be done free that should have precedence even if that means the aid is somewhat suboptimal.
doesn't that change the character of the original line?
Deference goes to the FA author and their intent in a case like this, rather than a blanket preference for free.
my previous post didn't make that clear.
So it should be...
1. FA author preference
2. If there is no care either direction, then consensus.
3. Consensus should be based on existing principles.
4. Existing principles of preserving the original route in as close an approximation as possible has the highest priority.
5. Since the character of the "free" tree climbing has change, much like a rock section breaking off, then it falls to the next best principle one can appeal to.
6. That then is free climbing, with the highest protection bolt being no higher than the highest possible slung spot on where the tree would have been. i.e. at that same level.
7. Failing that, but I'm sure if the bottom first moves will go, then the upper section of where the tree would have been is possible since the tree was 'free'... yeah, so failing that because the bottom won't go, then climbing consistent a variant with the difficulty of the existing line seems reasonable. Hence interest in coming in from the side. Which wouldn't be dead horizontal necessarily, but protection bolts above a 'tree' high point might make it lean hard to the left depending on the free climbing options.
-
I'm all for breathing easier! Thanks for your great work, Bruce! I'll confess now that there was a fixed pin (a medium angle) halfway up the 2nd pitch. I decided it was at best psychological pro and took it out twenty years ago, or so. It's protecting my old Pinnacles climbing guides now.
Waldo,
that explains the big gap between the first bolt at the start of the ramp and the four bolts at the top of the ramp on pitch 2. I was wondering about that! BTW, I have the knifeblade that was placed at the start of the ramp. It is partially rusted through.
-
doesn't that change the character of the original line?
I think the tree falling did changed the character of the original line.
-
right, so we start with the principle of keeping it as much like the original line as possible, no?
-
which was basically aid. So if it can be freed and people just aid the new free line then there is no real change in the character of the line.
-
Waldo,
that explains the big gap between the first bolt at the start of the ramp and the four bolts at the top of the ramp on pitch 2. I was wondering about that! BTW, I have the knifeblade that was placed at the start of the ramp. It is partially rusted through.
Rusted? It was only up there for twenty-seven years or so! That ramp was a lot easier than I expected. Still, that run should have a bolt in the middle near where the pin used to be.
-
Just install a few aid bolts and let someone try to free it....sans splinters (that tree sucked ass).
Or have Clink make a fiberglass tree and we bolt it to the side of the cliff. It would not require any water and restore the view...a win win!
Is it open?
Clink I have a few bolts and a hand drill.
-
Just install a few aid bolts and let someone try to free it....sans splinters (that tree sucked ass).
Actually, I thought the sap was the worst part of that tree. I hate tree sap all over me.
-
our favorite Ubermench climber will free it.
-
our favorite Ubermench climber will free it.
Free or free-solo? What about pro?
-
Glad u agree with me.
-
Actually, I thought the sap was the worst part of that tree. I hate tree sap all over me.
I do not like this rotten rock.
I do not like dirt in my sock.
I do not like to ski on scree.
I much prefer stability :)
-
I had a long talk with Glen about what to do about the start of the first pitch. He remembered the climb like it was yesterday. Glen agreed that it would most likely take a short bolt ladder to open up the first pitch. His request to me was that the bolts be reasonably far apart so that good aid climbing skills were required to clip the bolts. That's a bit subjective, but you all get the idea. I agreed to oversee the project, hopefully we can arrange something for this fall.
BTW, Glen has some great stories about climbing in the Valley in the Golden Era. Always a pleasure to catch up!
-
Got to simulate the Glen Denny reach - he put 'em far apart enough that I have to stretch to make the clip (and that's just trying to clip, not drilling the damn bolt in the first place).
Love his response.
-
Tee'ing off clips? Sik!!
-
Got to simulate the Glen Denny reach - he put 'em far apart enough that I have to stretch to make the clip (and that's just trying to clip, not drilling the damn bolt in the first place).
How tall is Mr. Denny?
Glen Denny is a tall quiet man. He expresses much in few words.
... and few bolts.
I googled Mr. Kor also,
6' 3" (1.90 m)
Layton Kor, Height
-
Idea; Brad give Munge a piggyback, drill, then alternate. Brad, bring an extra pair of shorts for Munge to wear. Document on video for the archives.
-
Shoulder stands are legit
-
Shoulder stands are legit
Only if the top climber's wearing crampons.
-
or she is wearing a skirt.
-
Pray tell. Is this when a FA becomes a religious experience?
-
are you experienced?
-
I do have opinions on what God made and what man has made, but they don't belong on this thread or for that matter the forum. Common sense says shut up.
Replaced about 8 bolts so far and my respect for the enormous work of Clint, Bruce and now JC is growing as is my interest in the history of individual routes. My gifts from the family were the Roper and Richards' guides.
-
Pray tell. Is this when a FA becomes a religious experience?
Al my routes are ****.
-
Hi, JC
Can you do glue in bolts? I have two requests, the first bolt one Tailspin/Foreplay and the fourth bolt on Future Shock ( this one wiggles ). I do not lead this hard anymore but those two bolts are a bit shaky and get a bit of traffic.
thanks,
Mud
Sorry - I haven't done/been trained on any glue-ins and don't have the materials either.
I'm going to refer this to Kyle - I bet he has the skills and the desire to refurbish the really hard climbs.
-
Brad,
we only used the Old Original for the approach. Over the years we have been replacing the bolts that needed it(mostly on the rappels). All are 3/8" though some are clearly better than others. The 2nd bolt on the 1st pitch is pretty rusty, but it is completely unnecessary and kind of puts the rope in a bad location for the second. It was probably added after the FA. The last bolt on the 3rd pitch is rusty as well, but it is a 3/8" and the climbing there is really, really easy. It was probably added long after the FA.
The bolt at the start of the route is about one foot off the ground. It looks like it was placed as a belay anchor.
Bruce
There is an old hangerless 1/4" stud sticking out near the end of pitch 3 - probably used as a belay bolt back in the day.
We did OO a couple weekends ago and saw the belay anchor bolt Bruce mentions at the start. It is non stainless and I can't recall ever seeing it before. I can't imagine missing it since it sticks out like a sore thumb just to the right of where p1 starts. I also don't understand why someone took the time and effort to install this bolt since it is surrounded by a huge area of flat ground - a small meadow of sorts - and some nearby trees. The last time I was up there was June 2014 so that bolt must have been placed since then.
-
Do any of you have any experience with the FIXE Triplex bolts? I've been using the standard 5 piece but the appeal of the Triplex is super simple removal when its time to replace it. Also wondering how different it is to drill a 12mm (almost 1/2") over a 3/8". Obviously with my Bosch it doesn't matter but I'm thinking of using these for some Pinnacles projects. Thoughts?
-Kyle
-
drilling 1/2" (12 mm) bolts by hand is an experience. Have not done it on lead but have drilled a few 7" x 12 mm holes. Bruce and Clint are the go to guys for bolt beta. Bruce usually checks for forum on occasion.
-
Do and of you have any experience with the FIXE Triplex bolts? I've been using the standard 5 piece but the appeal of the Triplex is super simple removal when its time to replace it. Also wondering how different it is to drill a 12mm (almost 1/2") over a 3/8". Obviously with my Bosch it doesn't matter but I'm thinking of using these for some Pinnacles projects. Thoughts?
-Kyle
Kyle - Brad and Alan replaced an anchor above Nexus with 1/2" and didn't act like it was any big deal. I agree with you about the triplex bolts making more sense - especially on high traffic routes that will need periodic maintenance. Unfortunately the ASCA does not supply us with those for Pinns.
-
Aslo would like to request information about glue in bolts for use in replacing bolts at the Pinnacles. If anyone has first hand experience and would like to contact me about it, please do so, so we can start exploring the possibility of replacing bolts on the harder of climbs at Pinnacles, which Mud brought up on a previous thread concerning Future Shock and Foreplay/Tailspin.
-
Kyle - Brad and Alan replaced an anchor above Nexus with 1/2" and didn't act like it was any big deal. I agree with you about the triplex bolts making more sense - especially on high traffic routes that will need periodic maintenance. Unfortunately the ASCA does not supply us with those for Pinns.
Expanding a hole is one thing but drilling a 12mm hole on lead is more what I'm concerned about. The Triplex, if anyone doesn't know, only comes in a 12mm diameter. My initial question about FIXE Triplex bolts concerns more about FA's over rebolting.
-
Triplex seem to be a smarter bolt solution.
Let us know how they place.
-
Expanding a hole is one thing but drilling a 12mm hole on lead is more what I'm concerned about. The Triplex, if anyone doesn't know, only comes in a 12mm diameter. My initial question about FIXE Triplex bolts concerns more about FA's over rebolting.
Expanding a hole can be a real pain as the drill binds until you get past the original depth - luckily we usually only have to do that with the 1/4 holes and those bolts are only about an inch long. I do like the triplex design and have looked at them - but they only come in 55 and 75 mm lengths which equates to 2 and 3 inches - and then consider that you have part of the stud out of the hole for the washer, hanger and 3 threads showing above the nut - so you lose some length(about 1/2"). Of course that lost length is partially offset by the increased strength and holding power of the larger diameter. That's about all I know about it.
-
When we rebolted Lava Falls and Shake and Bake we used 12mm glue ins. This all by hand but on rappel. We rebolted in the same hole when possible. It was not to bad but it was a fair bit of work. I am not sure I would want to drill a 12mm hole on lead. Karl used 1/2 bolts for all his routes including what he drilled ground up on lead.
-
With regards to glue-ins, Triplex, etc. Here are a few of my thoughts.
The '5-piece' bolts seems to be good for routes that don't see a lot of hard falls which means probably about 90% of the routes at the Pinnacles. Obviously, there are some very popular sport routes (mostly on DIscovery Wall and the Monolith) where people take repeated falls while trying to lead them. In these instances, it seems to me that the degradation of the hole, and not the bolt, is the real problem.
So, what can be done to keep the hole from degrading? I don't think using Triplex bolts are the answer. While they are more easily removed than the '5-piece' they are still basically the same design. And, since they are 12mm which is basically 1/2" there isn't much you can do if the hole goes bad. Glue-ins might be a better solution in that they use more surface area to provide holding power, but again, if the rock quality is suspect, I really don't know what you do when a hole goes bad.
Sure, you can drill out a 3/8" to 1/2", but what do you do when the 1/2" hole degrades? BTW, experience seems to indicate that you can drill out an existing hole when increasing the diameter by 1/8" or more. Rebolters who are trying to enlarge a 5/16" hole to 3/8" have found it very hard to drill(too much binding) and have had to resort to using a reamer.
What to do? What to do? Given the generally soft quality of the rock at the Pinnacles there probably isn't one solution for this problem. It might be as simple as moving the bolt to better rock. Or, drilling the hole from 3/8" to 1/2" might work, at least for a while.
-
Drilling a 12mm glue-in on lead...ugh, can you say tedious?
Mr Mud, Clint and Bryan basically grinded the 12mmx8cm holes. It took forever!
And is on of the reasons why not all of Shaken Bake was upgraded (2days was just not enough time).
Clint would spend hours banging away at a hole, take a break, rappel to the belay station, take a sip of water, some chocolate from his pack (yeah he held out on us) and ascend back to his hole and bang away.
He did this for something like 8-10 hrs and never touched terra firma (maybe for lunch, but that degrades the story).
-
Added a bolt to 675's (Truth or Consequence) last bolt turning it into a two bolt anchor on 5/22. This last bolt had two smash links on it and a two bolt anchor was located five feet up and fifteen feet right from the last bolt tucked up underneath a roof. I removed the red webbing that was on it this anchor. The route now climbs 4 bolts to a two bolt anchor equipped with rap rings. The original anchor wasn't very inspiring either, I could see a good portion of the stud behind the hanger on one bolt and the other bolt had what looked like a home made steel hanger. The same dubious anchor is also the original anchor for 674 (Jeopardy). I imagine I will add a bolt to that climbs last bolt creating a two bolt anchor for that one as well.
This earlier anchor in no way removes any memorable climbing and the route is 'OVER' in terms of difficulty. The change was to facilitate a safer and easier way to lower off for this route.
Less shenanigans, more fun. Truth or Consequences is one of my favorite routes and might be the most unique 5.12 in the park. It features deep pockets and in-cut crimpers instead of the usual knobs found on most other climbs. Send it!
-
Are you trolling, or seriously altering an existing line's character?
Have you talked to the FAist? If you have, why not mention that the first go around?
-
Are you trolling, or seriously altering an existing line's character?
Have you talked to the FAist? If you have, why not mention that the first go around?
I'm not trolling. I did it. It was a logical adjustment. I could have called Tom Davis and asked but I didn't. If you went to the routes and climbed them or even just looked at them the change would make total sense. It hasn't changed the lines character. And I whole-heartedly believe that adjusting were the anchor was located was a good thing to do. Would I go and add a bolt to the route to the left (very high first bolt, bad landing)? No, that would seriously alter the character of the route and I wouldn't dare do it without the FA's permission.
I'll call Tom now and see if he agrees with the change. If he don't like, I'll go pull my bolt.
EDIT: I e-mailed Tom Davis. It also seems possible that the "last bolt" may have been just a one bolt anchor. We'll see what Tom says.
-
Adding a bolt, even an anchor is retro'ing. May make sense, but best to work for consensus imho.
Not trying to be a douche, but I've made the mistake of doubling a crusty old bolt to use as an anchor for a proj. Does it change the character? To me, no, the guidebook still describes how to climb the original line, and I avoid drilling extra holes. But figured I'd mention it to save ya some headache.
-
Adding a bolt, even an anchor is retro'ing. May make sense, but best to work for consensus imho.
Not trying to be a douche, but I've made the mistake of doubling a crusty old bolt to use as an anchor for a proj. Does it change the character? To me, no, the guidebook still describes how to climb the original line, and I avoid drilling extra holes. But figured I'd mention it to save ya some headache.
I don't think you're being a douche. You are, typically, the first to speak when ethics come up and that's all you've done.
If you look in Brad's guide book these two routes in question show them going up and right to an anchor that is a top rope anchor for a route called Vanna (FA: Unknown). Meaning that maybe Davis nor Rubine placed that anchor? The whole wall is just sorta whacky. Was the anchor for Vanna before or after the 5.12's? Did Davis and Rubine even use that anchor or did they just lower off one bolt? Not many people climb these routes, and its a shame, but everyone who I know who has climbed them has chosen to lower off the single bolt with two smash links on it. I guess you could call that a consensus. Typically two links on a bolt mean it was meant to be a lower off point. I'll be interested to hear how Davis and Rubine established these climbs.
-
Kyle,
What you did sounds like it added value to the climb and took away nothing.
Don't know if you have a copy - but according to Rubine's 1995 guide all three routes were originally TR'ed by unknown and then bolts were placed using hooks by Rubine and Davis. He lists the lead bolts as long wedges so maybe the anchor is too.
-
I finished work on the Tunnel Traverse today.
The wall now has 3 excellent climbs and this route is now star worthy.
Most of the bolts did not require a crowbar. Several snapped off with the tuning fork and the nuts and hangers popped off of two with only the tuning fork under the hanger. There were no threads showing above the nuts on the two that popped off. No way any of these 1/4" bolts would have held a fall. The crux bolt at the bulge was loose and only embedded in the rock about 1/2 an inch. Several of the others were only in the rock 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch.
-
I don't think you're being a douche. You are, typically, the first to speak when ethics come up and that's all you've done.
If you look in Brad's guide book these two routes in question show them going up and right to an anchor that is a top rope anchor for a route called Vanna (FA: Unknown). Meaning that maybe Davis nor Rubine placed that anchor? The whole wall is just sorta whacky. Was the anchor for Vanna before or after the 5.12's? Did Davis and Rubine even use that anchor or did they just lower off one bolt? Not many people climb these routes, and its a shame, but everyone who I know who has climbed them has chosen to lower off the single bolt with two smash links on it. I guess you could call that a consensus. Typically two links on a bolt mean it was meant to be a lower off point. I'll be interested to hear how Davis and Rubine established these climbs.
I've worked the moves on one those from TR, and I seem to recall there being moves after the last bolt, but I think I'm remembering a high bolt as a kind of directional bolt on the slabby part. Definitely get in touch with Tom. I happened to see Tom last night at a friends bday dinner), and if you fully explain the position of bolts I can see the value of an anchor on that side.
-
Rebolt compilation as of 5-23-15
No wonder your wrists hurt dude!
Nice work. Thanks for keeping it safe.
-
I heard a reply from Tom Davis about Truth or Consequences. They way they originally set things up was to use the last bolt on Jeopardy and Truth or Consequences to lower off from. He had no problem with an updated anchor there. The anchor for Vanna (tr) was originally the start of a second pitch that was never worked on.
So when the new guidebook gets going there are some corrections that could be made on these two routes. For now though I will put them up on the Mountain Project in hopes more climbers will show them some love.
-
Nice. I bet Tom is using the new anchor in the near future.
-
Jeepers JC, in a year or two the question will be what hasn't been reboolted.
-
Jeepers JC, in a year or two the question will be what hasn't been reboolted.
Wanna see something REALLY scary? - Check these out
Old bolt 1 Tunnel Traverse - 1/4" bolt with funky home made hanger
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50256782702_66f7d4cc5e_z.jpg)
Old bolt 5 Tunnel Traverse - this is the only bolt I got out completely intact.
You can see how far the pin was engaged in the split shaft by looking at the corrosion.
That also explains why so many threads were showing.
This was perhaps the most worthwhile rebolting of a route I've done so far.
These bolts are called set bolts. The only way these can be pulled out successfully is if the rock is bad - otherwise there is no way to get the pin to disengage and the stud shaft will break under stress.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50255940993_d9cd7bde99_z.jpg)
-
give new meaning to key hole hanger.
-
Cool, thx for follow up kq
-
JC that upper pic needs a caption like "funky old bolt in it's natural habitat"
Cool scary ass stuff.
-
Leonard-Horsfall Route on Scout Peak is done. This completes rebolting for the crag.
Noal worked his arse off getting the old bolt out sans crowbar (some old fool who shall remain nameless left the crowbar at home). The bolt was a very strange compilation of materials. The nail was literally a concrete nail slammed into doubled star dryvin sleeves with no lead end piece - on a cool Longware hanger. The sleeves were under the hanger and mangled by the nail - making the whole rig super tight and hard to remove.
Noal worked on it by sitting in an awkward large hole in the wall - inside the squeeze chimney. There was little room to swing the hammer - making the job much harder. His efforts on this one were greatly appreciated.
I'll post some pics tomorrow.
After the bolt replacement - Noal let me have the honor of leading the route. This is a very cool and historic route with varied climbing, good rock, hairy exposure and decent gear placements. It is star worthy in my book. Neither of us thought it was 5.3
The old piton has a ring that's in a bind and is very rusty - probably not long for this world. Noal and I were both a bit disturbed by the fact that there was a biner left on the piton. Someone had obviously been lowered off that crusty old thing. Definitely puts them in the running for a Darwin award.
-
Noal really took one for the team on this rebolting project - in order to work - he was wedged in the "hidey hole" on the right wall of Leonard-Horsfall’s squeeze chimney section. It took a lot of effort for him to get in and out of that tight, uncomfortable spot and then he had to deal with the "no leverage" situation of working in the squeeze and nothing to use for extraction beyond stacking two tuning forks (there was no room to use the crowbar) and some other creative solutions. It's tighter than it looks from below.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50256006548_7f3072af88_z.jpg)
The old bolt on Leonard Horsfall was an unusually stubborn star dryvin with no sleeve exposed (sleeves under the hanger)
The nail was unusual - it had no star pattern.
Noal said he couldn’t tell for sure how many sleeves they stacked in the hole – under the hanger - but it appeared to be at least two.
He said it was all smashed and mangled under the hanger and in the hole.
After looking at the remains in more detail - the smaller pieces were lead - not a second pair of sleeves - but the lead was up high in the hole as though it had been stacked with the sleeve. Maybe it slid up the sleeve when they placed slid it in the hole because the hole was really tight. The rock is really solid where they placed it (maybe an embedded lodestone) - so the hole may have been tighter than normal. Maybe they used a worn or slightly undersized bit? We'll never know. It is a cool, old, historic route.
-
^^^
Looks like the bolt hanger on the only bolt was hanger #3.
Interesting since the FA on the route is 1939 and this catalog is from '68.
The pitons on Scout appear to be the #1 Ring angles shown on the left.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/longware.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/longware.jpg.html)
-
Interesting since the FA on the route is 1939 and this catalog is from '68.
Maybe it was rebolted from the original? An early retro bolt?
Old books describe the bolt in that location?
-
that does not look like a fun spot for bolt replacement.
-
It was definitely a comical and unique stance to drill a bolt. In JC's pic I am leaning out of the hole. While drilling your upper body is totally in the hole. There was little room to move your arms and that really limited the angles to extract the bolt. If JC had brought the crowbar I do not know how helpful it would have been. There was not much room side to side or up and down to lever back on the bar without hitting something. We were able to re-use the hole so the bolt is in it's original location which is cool.
-
Maybe it was rebolted from the original? An early retro bolt?
Old books describe the bolt in that location?
Unfortunately I don't have the old books. Maybe Brad or Bruce can shed some light?
-
I/we deployed a dozen shiny metal bits this past week.
My buddy Julius has been wanting to learn how to drill and rebolt, so I took him out for some training on Thursday 7-16-15.
We needed something easy in a non-threatening environment, so I decided doing some anchor work on accessible sites would be best.
We started on the Love Handles 3rd class route where there are two old anchor bolts – one mangled star dryvin and a 3/8” split shaft – both with Leeper hangers. This anchor appears to be from someone toproping the formation – although no TR routes exist in the guidebook. We also found a hangerless ¼” stud on the route. I replaced the star dryvin as a learning exercise - since there are so many of these bolts that still need replaced around the Monument. Julius got to drill part of the hole and observe all the removal and installation techniques. The pic I posted of Julius on the “How was your day dear” thread is from that day. The formation now has one new and one old (but seemingly still solid) anchor bolt. We proceeded to the hangerless ¼” stud and I showed Julius how to remove it. It popped relatively easily with the tuning fork – a 1½” long split shaft. It was good for him to see what one of these things looks like. We patched the hole.
Things were really starting to heat up and although I wanted to replace a bolt or two at the Spaceman Spiff anchors (clusters of star dryvins on SMC death hangers) - it was in full sun. We opted for Tourist Trap where I knew there was another short, easy, accessible project. There were two old belay bolts on opposite sides of a wide crack at the top of the easy ramp that leads to the true start of Nipple Jam. One star dryvin on a Leeper and one star with a death hanger. I had Julius replace the left one - from start to finish - and I did the right one. I was shocked by how easily both nails came out. There was no customary creaking sound and virtually no resistance. Julius had to extract the lead sleeve from his (good practice) but mine slid out all intact. Both nails looked like they just came out of the box – perfectly straight…disturbing. I felt particularly good about getting rid of these bolts since TT gets so much traffic.
Yesterday (7-19-15)
Noal and I worked ourselves to the limit replacing nine bolts on The Fast Lane.
We lucked out after a surprisingly hot, early approach as clouds moved in to produce overcast skies and light sprinkles over the course of the day.
This was a particularly difficult job because eight of the old bolts were 3/8” carbon steel wedge bolts. The anchor consisted of two rusty 3/8” wedge bolts with stainless SMC hangers – a few feet below the original single bolt anchor (a star dryvin with an SMC death hanger). The current anchor bolts were disturbingly close to each other. The hangers had obviously been replaced at some point. Five of the other route bolts also had replacement hangers. Unfortunately, none of those hangers could be reused because the holes are only 5/16”. We drilled a new anchor and then Noal got started on the route while I removed the old anchor components.
Three of the lead bolts I replaced were in lodestones (we normally try not to place bolts in lodestones), so those were relocated to adjacent good rock. Two of them were wedge bolts and one was a ¼”, 1 ½” long split shaft on a death hanger (bolt 2).
With an unknown FA – we speculated as to the origins of this route.
One of the “surprises” we found on this route was a 3 ½” star dryvin with a death hanger. I have NEVER seen a star dryvin that long in Pinns. Noal said he slid the nail out with his fingers after barely starting it with the tuning fork. We weren’t sure if there was a lead sleeve in the hole because our lag bolts for lead extraction are only good for 2 ½”(normally the longest stars in Pinns).
-
Nice work. I was talking to someone at Discovery Wall about The Fast Lane just the other weekend since they were thinking about going out there. Nice to know there are now good bolts. I like that route.
-
I agree, it's a great route. Really good quality rock bottom to top. Interesting climbing in a groove, to a headwall/roof,
a little face climbing to mild runout. The old mish mash of hardware in my opinion detracted from the good qualities of the route. Now people can focus more on the rock. My favorite at the Frog next to you guessed it.....Get a Grip. The Frog is such a great formation. Something for everyone.
-
This was a particularly difficult job because eight of the old bolts were 3/8” carbon steel wedge bolts. These bolts cannot be removed. They must be snapped off, holes patched and all new holes drilled.
Maybe something to look into. Looks like wedge bolts CAN be removed. See link.
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/inexpensive-bolt-extractor/109487927__1 (http://www.mountainproject.com/v/inexpensive-bolt-extractor/109487927__1)
-
Maybe something to look into. Looks like wedge bolts CAN be removed. See link.
Thanks Kyle. I appreciate you trying to help.
I read all his info and watched all of his videos on bolt extraction a couple months back.
The problem is that in order to use his nifty extraction tool you have to first disengage the cone and then spin the bolt at high speed for several minutes with a power drill to cut a groove in the cone so it can't re-engage the sleeve when you try to pull it. They also had a small hydraulic puller in the videos.
-
Thanks Kyle. I appreciate you trying to help.
I read all his info and watched all of his videos on bolt extraction a couple months back.
The problem is that in order to use his nifty extraction tool you have to first disengage the cone and then spin the bolt at high speed for several minutes with a power drill to cut a groove in the cone so it can't re-engage the sleeve when you try to pull it. They also had a small hydraulic puller in the videos.
I'm not sure about several minutes of spinning with the drill. In the video he didn't spend much time spinning it to cut the groove. It probably takes longer to drill a new hole than it does to cut the groove. Also one of the pullers is not hydraulic, just a modified C-clamp. The hydraulic do-dad seems overkill. Honestly it doesn't look like that big of a deal to me. Especially for carbon steel bolts. It seems to be worth trying out. It's definitely way better to extract the bolt rather than chop, patch, and drill a new hole. I'm sure you agree.
I'll make one and test it, just for shits and giggles, and report back.
-
I'm not sure about several minutes of spinning with the drill. In the video he didn't spend much time spinning it to cut the groove.
I'll make one and test it, just for shits and giggles, and report back.
I honestly couldn't remember how long he spun it for but after I saw it took a power drill - I lost interest.
Let me know how it goes. Any efforts are much appreciated.
That route is the first one we've done with some wedges.
There's still a ton of star dryvins and various sized split shafts out there that need replaced.
-
after I saw it took a power drill - I lost interest.
Be the drill, Danny. Be the drill.
-
Be the drill, Danny. Be the drill.
this is quotable.
-
Noal and I were back at The Frog yesterday.
We replaced the standard rappel anchor and the midway belay anchor on Pinch Gripped.
I reused the chains on the standard rappel - still in fine shape. I could tell Brad supplied/installed them
I also discovered that one of the routes reported as being rebolted was not.
I have removed that route from the master list (Lonesome Dove).
I also updated the master list with some details after inspecting the three bolt belay anchor at the top of the formation. Two of those bolts have ring anchors - so it is possible to rappel down to the Ski Jump midway anchor and then rappel from there to the ground with a 60m rope. I discovered that the Ski Jump midway anchor had doubled, sub-standard screw links on both bolts, so I replaced those with new 3/8 screwlinks and single chain links.
We'll get back out there soon and take care of Lonesome Dove and hopefully some of the other old stuff that presented us with logistical challenges yesterday. Noal was the hero of the day yesterday - climbing the route with his pack loaded with all the rebolting gear - and graciously allowing me to lead Lonesome Dove. From the leaver biner, it looked like someone probably climbed up there, saw the rusty old bolts and bailed. On a scarier note, there was also a leaver biner on one of the Pinch Gripped midway anchor bolts - a time bomb. KC claimed that leaver biner a couple weeks ago when we climbed Ski Jump. The bolt was a 1/4" drop-in anchor. The bolt head was 7/16" and it wasn't responding to the crescent wrench, so I GENTLY tapped the tab hanger 1/2 a turn counterclockwise and the bolt snapped. The 1/4" bolt was 1/2" long and the drop-in sleeve was protruding from the hole 1/4".
Rebolting...it's not just a job...it's an adventure.
The time bomb…note the shadow at the top of the tab hanger created by protrusion of the drop-in sleeve…
Notice the wedge bolt placed right at the edge of a lodestone. The stud was so crooked that the Leeper hanger wouldn’t come off without significant coaxing after the nut was removed.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50256582023_5fcebcd52d_z.jpg)
-
Julius and I replaced a few bolts yesterday
We did Lonesome Dove first.
Working on this climb was a PITA since the top anchor is nowhere near being in line with the climb – not to mention the route meanders badly. The only solution was to climb up, rely on the old bolt and drill from stance. After placing each new bolt, the old bolt (wedge bolt) could be removed and the hole patched. The first two bolts are now replaced. The third bolt is off route and should not be used. Removing it would be difficult and dangerous – so I did not touch it - it is still a shiny stainless hanger on an old rusty wedge bolt. The 4th bolt (really the 3rd) had been replaced. Past that, the route merges with Ski Jump and those bolts have already been replaced.
The hanger on the old first was interesting. It is a stainless unknown brand hanger stamped Italy.
We replaced the two anchor bolts on top of South Side Shuffle. Star dryvins were cleanly removed, so we were able to keep them in the original locations.
After replacing these bolts, we went down a bit and replaced some old, rusty, substandard size screwlinks on the Big Sky top anchor.
The master list is updated and as always - much work remains to be done...
-
Noal and I completed the rebolt of Blowing Chunks yesterday. We did Atlas Shrugs last weekend. The master list is updated.
-
John, Noal, et. al.
Nice job with all the rebolting! Keep it up and I can retire!
ps - that hanger that says "Italy" on it is probably made by Kong. They did a lot of stuff in aluminum.
-
Clint and I started our rebolting project on Resurrection Wall. We began by freeing The Great Spectacular just to get the ropes up there(probably mid-range 10 if you know how to use your feet)-:) -:) -:)
Seriously, we have two 60m ropes fixed. One from the top of the rock down to the top of Pitch 2 of Resurrection Wall and another 60m rope from the top of Pitch 2 down to the ground.
Today, working top down, we replaced the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th bolts on pitch 4. We replaced the bolts at the anchor at the top of Pitch 3 and added SS quick links and rings. We replaced the 1st and 2nd bolts of Pitch 3. We also replaced the bolts at the anchor of Pitch 2 and added SS quick links and rings. The plan is to go back up there ASAP and finish the several remaining bolts on Pitch 3 and Pitch 4 and then work on the ladder on Pitch 2.
BTW, there are a few 3/8" Star Dryvins and one 1/4" Star Dryvin (last bolt on the entire climb). The majority of the bolts are 1/4" and 3/8" "red head" bolts. This design of this bolt has a small pin in the back of the bolt. As you pound the bolt into the hole the pin gets pushed in and, hopefully, expands the back end of the bolt. Yuch! All the 3/8" Red Heads we have removed so far were only in 1"!
I will toss some photos up on the site when my body quiets down a bit.
-
Nice work. My excuses for not climbing that thing are getting thin.
I hope Adam sees this.
And wow, freeing The Great Spectacular is impressive indeed. Did you use a rope, or just solo it?
-
Clint and I started our rebolting project on Resurrection Wall. We began by freeing The Great Spectacular just to get the ropes up there(probably mid-range 10 if you know how to use your feet)-:) -:) -:)
Seriously, we have two 60m ropes fixed. One from the top of the rock down to the top of Pitch 2 of Resurrection Wall and another 60m rope from the top of Pitch 2 down to the ground.
Today, working top down, we replaced the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th bolts on pitch 4. We replaced the bolts at the anchor at the top of Pitch 3 and added SS quick links and rings. We replaced the 1st and 2nd bolts of Pitch 3. We also replaced the bolts at the anchor of Pitch 2 and added SS quick links and rings. The plan is to go back up there ASAP and finish the several remaining bolts on Pitch 3 and Pitch 4 and then work on the ladder on Pitch 2.
BTW, there are a few 3/8" Star Dryvins and one 1/4" Star Dryvin (last bolt on the entire climb). The majority of the bolts are 1/4" and 3/8" "red head" bolts. This design of this bolt has a small pin in the back of the bolt. As you pound the bolt into the hole the pin gets pushed in and, hopefully, expands the back end of the bolt. Yuch! All the 3/8" Red Heads we have removed so far were only in 1"!
I will toss some photos up on the site when my body quiets down a bit.
Wow! Sweet job freeing the Great Spectacular!
-
Here is a photo of a few of the bolts. 3/8" red heads on the bottom(note the pin in the leftmost bolt). A couple of 1/4" red heads on the top left and a 1/4" Star Dryvin on the top right.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/resurrection_1.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/resurrection_1.jpg.html)
-
Those bolts inspire ( to not fall ). Real nice work and thank you very much.
-
Those bolts inspire ( to not fall ). Real nice work and thank you very much.
Amen, and amen.
I guess there was some strength in numbers, huh?
Bruce, Adam and I re-bolted most or all of the old, original bolts on the first pitch with long stainless 3/8" Rawl-type bolts about four or five years ago (including the first pitch anchor). And about 10 or 12 years ago Dennis (I think it was him) replaced the second-to-last bolt on that pitch (but with a 3/8" carbon steel bolt).
I'll be curious how all that looks now, when you get down to it.
-
Those bolts inspire ( to not fall ). Real nice work and thank you very much.
Most of the bolts from Blowing Chunks were 1/4 inch button heads :yikes:
I started work on Stretch Seven today.
-
I wonder if I could find any more routes under 5.10 with quarter inchers to clip at this point?
YOWZER!
-
I wonder if I could find any more routes under 5.10 with quarter inchers to clip at this point?
YOWZER!
What you nut - you want to clip bolts like that? I'm kinda glad that I led Blowing Chunks without seeing that photo first. Yikes and yowser!
-
I started work on Stretch Seven today.
I have a faint memory of both Clint and I being totally sketched about the bolts on Stretch Seven. I went ahead and led it so I could tick it off the list. Are they as bad as they appeared (or will you keep us in suspense...)?
And again, it's the same words we use every time, but huge thanks for all the work you bolt replacers put in.
-
Bruce,
Adam and I re-bolted most or all of the old, original bolts on the first pitch with long stainless 3/8" Rawl-type bolts about four or five years ago (including the first pitch anchor). And about 10 or 12 years ago Dennis (I think it was him) replaced the second-to-last bolt on that pitch (but with a 3/8" carbon steel bolt).
I'll be curious how all that looks now, when you get down to it.
Brad,
thanks to you and Adam. The first pitch, with the way it wanders, is a difficult rebolting job!
Bruce
-
John,
nice work on Blowing Chunks and Stretch Seven!
Bruce
-
I have a faint memory of both Clint and I being totally sketched about the bolts on Stretch Seven. I went ahead and led it so I could tick it off the list. Are they as bad as they appeared (or will you keep us in suspense...)?
And again, it's the same words we use every time, but huge thanks for all the work you bolt replacers put in.
I only got the anchor done yesterday and then rapped down to see where the bolts are. It has 6 star dryvins and one stud bolt. Someone added an anchor bolt on the summit in bad rock - a carbon steel wedge with a stainless Metolius hanger. All the rock on the summit was dull sounding, hollow or crumbly. I only noticed that one of the star dryvin lead bolts had a sleeve protruding. I didn't look at them all really closely since I was just trying to spot locations and determine bolt type for the next trip out. It will take me another trip or two to get the lead bolts replaced.
I was wearing the appropriate shirt...
-
I wonder if I could find any more routes under 5.10 with quarter inchers to clip at this point?
YOWZER!
That answer would be yes.
-
I had a weird one happen today (up here though, not at Pinns). Halfway through the first bolt on a new route the bit just broke in half:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5640/22031856594_2302115043_c.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/734/22031853204_81f1dfdb1d_c.jpg)
We didn't put any unusual pressure on the bit at all. As a wild guess, this bit's probably been used for 35 to 50 bolts. "Boom," just like that it broke. I'm glad I always carry an extra bit.
On the good side, we got a new route done at Missing Man Formation. Luc's widow, Cassy, drilled her first bolt (on lead, with the new bit), and then got the first lead of the route. We called it "Lady GAZA." Luc's Air Force call name was GAZA, and so, naturally Cassy came to be called lady GAZA by some of the other squadron members:
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5662/22629323836_bda3642c6b_c.jpg)
Oh my God, we just had two trick-or-treaters come to our door! That's the first time we've had any at all in like 15 years!
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5659/22666562051_ebb2441fa0_c.jpg)
Great day. And now tomorrow it's supposed to snow down to 5,000 feet (a few hundred feet above us).
-
New one indeed Brad. Glad it worked out well
-
Nice. That looks like an enjoyable and fun lead - but that is the weirdest looking rock!
I like all the different colored tops on the crew.
We'll see about getting you back out of status at Pinns tomorrow :)
-
Nice. That looks like an enjoyable and fun lead - but that is the weirdest looking rock!
I like all the different colored tops on the crew.
We'll see about getting you back out of status at Pinns tomorrow :)
The odd colored rock way below us is a slab with water flowing down it.
And you're only allowed to get me "out of status" if you have plenty of fun doing it.
-
Brad, you should hand drill. Much safer..
-
Brad,
I have some bits that have only been used for 30-40 holes if you need a replacement.
-
Brad, you should hand drill. Much safer..
I have some bits that have only been used for 30-40 holes if you need a replacement.
Don't either of you have anything constructive to do on a Saturday night (like go trick or treating).
-
Don't either of you have anything constructive to do on a Saturday night (like go trick or treating).
Too late for this year. Next Halloween you can go as Brad. This will take some work.
First the costume. An old t-shirt(rugby if it's cold), short shorts( if you can not find these, you can make a pair easily enough by cutting 6 inches off a normal pair of shorts) and any size day pack. Now sew on patches and some of the patches will need patches sewn over them as well to be authentic. This will take days and it would be a good idea to coax someone else into doing it for you.
Next, research and map all your local neighborhood spots for tick or treating. Take a few pictures of the creepiest houses and note the ones that give out two or more handfuls of booty, put a number of stars next to these accordingly. Make a guide with the maps, descriptions, a few pics and it's OK to throw a few stars in the crappy neighborhoods if a friend you know lives there, or you have a rental there, or it's your mechanic's house etc.
Now you are ready for next Halloween! You will look like a famous person who fell on hard times and will know the best spots for raking in a big haul. All the while selling copies of your "Guide to My Local Trick Or Treating" by yourself and whoever you could rope in somehow to help compile it. After 5 to 10 years you may even make a profit but by then it will be time to make a new, updated guide.
The best part is that the costume will only get better with wear though the years.
Note: If you don't have sexy legs go with the extremely patched pants version. If you end up feeling the need to knock on every door in your county, see a shrink.
-
Whew! ;)
-
Too late for this year. Next Halloween you can go as Brad. This will take some work.
First the costume. An old t-shirt(rugby if it's cold), short shorts( if you can not find these, you can make a pair easily enough by cutting 6 inches off a normal pair of shorts) and any size day pack. Now sew on patches and some of the patches will need patches sewn over them as well to be authentic. This will take days and it would be a good idea to coax someone else into doing it for you.
Next, research and map all your local neighborhood spots for tick or treating. Take a few pictures of the creepiest houses and note the ones that give out two or more handfuls of booty, put a number of stars next to these accordingly. Make a guide with the maps, descriptions, a few pics and it's OK to throw a few stars in the crappy neighborhoods if a friend you know lives there, or you have a rental there, or it's your mechanic's house etc.
Now you are ready for next Halloween! You will look like a famous person who fell on hard times and will know the best spots for raking in a big haul. All the while selling copies of your "Guide to My Local Trick Or Treating" by yourself and whoever you could rope in somehow to help compile it. After 5 to 10 years you may even make a profit but by then it will be time to make a new, updated guide.
The best part is that the costume will only get better with wear though the years.
Note: If you don't have sexy legs go with the extremely patched pants version. If you end up feeling the need to knock on every door in your county, see a shrink.
:P :P
-
Our trick or treating was brief... A low yield year.
Sadly, at 7 there was a nuclear melt down.
All in all a good time.
-
Nice. That looks like an enjoyable and fun lead.
As I look back on the photos of Cassy leading, it occurs to me that one could mistaken think that we bolted next to a crack. We didn't. Her fingers are getting slight purchase on a tiny, flared, knifeblade piton-size seam.
And Clink, I just can't emphasize enough how much trouble you're in.
-
Don't either of you have anything constructive to do on a Saturday night (like go trick or treating).
Brad,
after a full day(and a bit of the night) rebolting on Thursday at Resurrection Wall, I was up at 7am on Friday morning to meet with Caltrans up on Highway 35 in the Santa Cruz Mountains about a 21-mile stretch of roadway where a report I filed with them three weeks ago halted the $2 million resurfacing project that I worked hard to get them to undertake this summer. On Friday evening I emceed the annual Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition's fundraising dinner where we raised close to $100,000.
On Saturday, I was up early to take a load of donated bike parts up to Trips for Kids in San Rafael then spent the afternoon bike riding up and around Mt. Tamalpais with my GF.
On Sunday, I was up at 6:30am to drive over to the Santa Cruz County Fairgrounds in Watsonville to spend all day announcing the second race of the four race Surf City Cyclocross series.
Saturday night was a very good, and necessary, opportunity to recharge my batteries.
-
And Clink, I just can't emphasize enough how much trouble you're in.
I vote that he have the honor of being the official Mud N Crud Roaster.
He got me good today saying I pulled the crux on our new climb like a Zombie Ballerina :)
-
You know I love you guys.
Bruce, Do you have many five piece spinners? Yesterday Julius drilled a 1/2 inch deeper than necessary 3/8 hole in decent rock and it was a spinner. JC led past it and when the route was finished I pulled it. The replacement 5 piece tightened perfectly. A couple weeks back JC and Nelkins had the same spinners twice on one route. It appears the nose cone seizes on the end of the bolt.
Julius stance placed a 3 3/4 inch double wedge that I gave him at the crux. At that point on the climb we could not chance the "maybe it will work" results of the 5 piece. Are the tolerances between bolts and bits off? JC suggested testing out a 10mm bit. Any suggestions?
Brad, you will thoroughly enjoy the new route on Love Handles. 1.48 stars IMO. 4 bolts exactly where you commit at three folds. Last one is surprisingly burly. Watching JC spread eagled on it was very entertaining.
-
You can take a tuning fork and give the bolt some outward tension. To try and engage the cone.
Had a few and they suck.
-
You know I love you guys.
Bruce, Do you have many five piece spinners? Yesterday Julius drilled a 1/2 inch deeper than necessary 3/8 hole in decent rock and it was a spinner. JC led past it and when the route was finished I pulled it. The replacement 5 piece tightened perfectly. A couple weeks back JC and Nelkins had the same spinners twice on one route. It appears the nose cone seizes on the end of the bolt.
Julius stance placed a 3 3/4 inch double wedge that I gave him at the crux. At that point on the climb we could not chance the "maybe it will work" results of the 5 piece. Are the tolerances between bolts and bits off? JC suggested testing out a 10mm bit. Any suggestions?
Brad, you will thoroughly enjoy the new route on Love Handles. 1.48 stars IMO. 4 bolts exactly where you commit at three folds. Last one is surprisingly burly. Watching JC spread eagled on it was very entertaining.
spinners seem to happen when the material inside the hole breaks up a little bit, at least at Pinns. Using a draw to tension it downward while tightening sometimes works. Sometimes you get a Bob Pocket. Weirdest thing either of us had ever seen. 3/8" hole turned into a un unusable 1/2" hole that was bigger on the inside.
-
spinners seem to happen when the material inside the hole breaks up a little bit, at least at Pinns. Using a draw to tension it downward while tightening sometimes works. Sometimes you get a Bob Pocket. Weirdest thing either of us had ever seen. 3/8" hole turned into a un unusable 1/2" hole that was bigger on the inside.
We've tried yanking out with tether per Fixe video with no luck. Prying out with a bar on a few, and once with a tuning fork didn't work. I will try the downward tension technique next time and see if it works. This hole yesterday seemed perfect and the second bolt fit well into it, same with the holes JC and Noal re-used do to our "bettering" technique at pulling the longer 5-piece.
I did have a Bob Pocket(after Walton?) on the first bolt on Joaquin the Dog. The replacement bolt bit hard in good rock about 16 inches away from the original not so great rock reachable from the stance.
Another note is that some of the Gals are putting up a no guys, all female FA. It was inspiring to have Kathy show up at our route as we were packing up, with her war stories of the days battle making forward progress on their enterprise.
-
I've tried all the techniques repeatedly to no avail. When I get a spinner I try downward tension technique first, then funking and lastly pulsing/prying out slight with crowbar. All of these techniques have failed in most instances.
Recovered bolts show deformation of the nose cone - it's those little slits allowing the nose cone to close up slightly if it isn't driven in perfectly in line with the drilled hole.
Once the slits close too much the bolt can't pass through the nose cone. When the bolt hits the constriction in the nose cone it binds and the bolt and nose cone start spinning together in the sleeve. Nose cone engagement isn't the problem - which is what can be cured by the various fix it techniques above.
The fact that we have now removed 3 spinner bolts and replaced them with new bolts that tighten perfectly is compelling evidence. All the removed bolts had deformation of the nose cone which would not allow the bolt to advance through the cone.
I believe that a solid nose cone (without the slits) would cure the problem. I am not going back to school to get a mechanical engineering degree so I can work for Powers but I am going to try to talk to someone about the design. Maybe I can get Dan Merrick to machine some test nose cones :)
-
When I get a spinner I try downward tension technique first, then funking and lastly pulsing/prying out slight
Yes, it is pretty funking frustrating.
JC, you should write how to manuals. ;)
-
...then spent the afternoon bike riding up and around Mt. Tamalpais with my GF.
What, you have a girlfriend? I don't remember FoP or the MoM authorizing you to distract yourself that way....
-
JC, you should write how to manuals. ;)
Probably so. From having never drilled at Pinns to one of the absolute experts on bolts there. In less than two years. Very impressive.
Kinda like a VW Bug successfully going from 0 to 60 in 15 seconds.
-
Definitely not a square back. The Thing?
-
About 3/8" x 3.5" SS Powers spinners........
What JC and Clink are seeing is what I have had problems with in the past year. The problem, as both JC and Clink describe it, is that the cone collapses around the bolt so that the bolt will no longer move down the threads on the cone. The cone isn't spinning in the hole; it is very easy to unscrew the bolt. The problem is that the bolt just comes to a stop when screwing into the cone and won't go any further.
After this happens all the usual techniques such as putting pressure on the hanger don't work. As JC and Clink mentioned, you can pull the spinning bolt and put a new one in the same hole which tightens up fine. I tried switching to a newer bit more often to insure that the hole was staying close to 3/8". That has helped a bit, but it is still happening.
I have a stock of older 3/8" x 3.5" Powers in Colorado. I brought one back with me to compare with the newer model to see if it is some sort of manufacturing defect/improvement. I have been placing this type of bolt in the Pinnacles for about 12 years and this problem has only begun in the past year. Hmmm.
BTW, this happened to me on the most recent Resurrection Wall rebolting. I was super tired, the sun was going down and I was replacing the second bolt of the pitch 2 anchor so we could rap off and get the hell out of there before it got dark. For those of you who haven't been to the base of Resurrection Wall it is a poison oak jungle!
Anyway, the bolt was a spinner. Damn. Fight off hand cramps to drill a new hole. Get the bolt in and just pray that the rope isn't in the poison oak jungle at the bottom. Then my headlamp died..........
-
Say Bruce, while replacing...and you placing the new bolts near a good clipping hold???
Thanks!
-
Say Bruce, while replacing...and you placing the new bolts near a good clipping hold???
Thanks!
Have no fear we have Clint on the case! On his notes about the route he has the bolts
where you climb away from the ladder marked. That's bolts #1,3,5,9, and 12 if you are
keeping score at home. We are keeping the bolts as close to the original locations as
possible. Some of the rock up there is a bit sketchy!
-
I have been placing this type of bolt in the Pinnacles for about 12 years and this problem has only begun in the past year. Hmmm.
Exactly my sentiment.
-
About 3/8" x 3.5" SS Powers spinners........
The cone isn't spinning in the hole; it is very easy to unscrew the bolt.
Bruce - with our spinners the bolt will neither tighten nor unscrew. At that point we gently pulse the whole rig out of the hole. I am saving any bolts that are spinners and they all have the deformed nose cone.
I know from working in manufacturing that all parts are made to comply with a certain range of tolerance. Problems can occur when one part is at the high end of tolerance and the other is at the low end - drill bits could be on the lowl end and bolts could be on the high end. We saw this kind of thing pretty frequently at Toyota with body versus parts tolerances. Body Quality would say they were within spec and so would the parts suppliers - but things would stack together to make fits in assembly difficult.
-
Bruce - with our spinners the bolt will neither tighten nor unscrew. At that point we gently pulse the whole rig out of the hole. I am saving any bolts that are spinners and they all have the deformed nose cone.
I was able to unscrew the bolt off three spinners and fish out the sleeves with the small extraction tool before replacing the bolt in the nose cone and pulling it out. No pulsing required. I am surprised that you were able to remove the complete assembly together. I wonder if we have 10mm bolts being sold as 3/8s. I am skeptical of Fixe's operation standards.
On a separate note the new bits drill fast but the flutes do not go as far down the shaft as the former ones did. limiting or ceasing the piston action while drilling. Of the six holes I have drilled with it, three of them required removing the bit once to clean out the dust before being at depth. The prior bit drilled 26 holes with most not requiring bit removal at all.
-
About the spinners......
I talked to Greg Barnes tonight. I am going to send him one of my bad bolts to let him have a look at it.
-
Bruce - just as an fyi - clink is talking about the DeWalt bits.
Noal and I were able to pulse out (with a crowbar) the whole assembly on both of the Blowing Chunks bolts that were spinners. It did not take a lot of effort - just slow and steady.
-
Have no fear we have Clint on the case! On his notes about the route he has the bolts
where you climb away from the ladder marked. That's bolts #1,3,5,9, and 12 if you are
keeping score at home. We are keeping the bolts as close to the original locations as
possible. Some of the rock up there is a bit sketchy!
Sigh, it's a dream come true...Man that will be one heck of a climb when you guys are done.
Talk about a project.
It was a hard route to lead, as I kept getting suckered into following the bolts.
I hope the new bolts can be better suited to free climbing.
Plus the old ones didn't look extractable.
Now I just need to lose 20lbs and do some climbing.
-
What, you have a girlfriend? I don't remember FoP or the MoM authorizing you to distract yourself that way....
Brad,
I will let her know that she is on probation:-)
-
Noal and I got 9 bolts replaced today - the seven lead bolts on Stretch Seven and the anchor for The Rookie.
I'll update the list some time this week.
-
Brad asked about the bolts on Stretch Seven.
#5 was the only stud bolt - all the rest were star dryvins.
Noal did #6, 3 and 2. I did #1, 4, 5 and 7.
Noal said all of his came out without the crowbar - just tuning fork and fingers.
He also said they all came out in one piece - scary!
#3 - the scariest of all - came out totally intact and the hole couldn't be reused because of bad rock quality.
Before I patched the old hole - I blew it out and checked the depth with my blow tube. It was totally under-drilled and the installer just kept pounding on it even though it wasn't seating properly. The lead sleeve position was way high in the hole - nowhere near the bottom of the sleeves where it should have been.
Bolt 3 exactly as it came out of the hole
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fLtrdlBGMi820rvvR8S5J6ov7Isii7QLsPz8UXQ3G_udqiLTO3LenrX6QOv1YZl3p5BA1fMtcgjIFR7y9ZfCVLhlpw2a7xIX8hMIcYMAPl0H2WkkgIhtu4PxkwU3K0FOSUigsV5Cx1b1I4sZX49j7n=w507-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
JC,
it's kind of a double edge sword. We have all clipped enough Star Dryvins at the Pinns that we want to believe that they are not great, but OK. That means they should offer some resistance during removal efforts and not just fall out in our hands.
Thanks to you and Noal for all your efforts.
-
Bruce - about half of them had decent purchase in so-so rock but I'd say the ones that pulled in one piece (nail and all) had shear strength only. One of the anchors we pulled at The Rookie had the sleeves behind the hanger :(
Always a good feeling and a good day to get some quality replacements installed :)
-
Always a good feeling and a good day to get some quality replacements installed :)
May I suggest a re-word?
Your replacements are ALWAYS quality (high quality). Perhaps the good feeling comes from replacing bolts that were just plain crap (as opposed to replacing bolts that were still OK).
Thanks, as always for the good work.
-
Bruce - about half of them had decent purchase in so-so rock but I'd say the ones that pulled in one piece (nail and all) had shear strength only. One of the anchors we pulled at The Rookie had the sleeves behind the hanger :(
Always a good feeling and a good day to get some quality replacements installed :)
JC, thanks for all the work. I enjoyed the climbing on stretch 7, but I knew it was a no-fall route. I never repeated it. I think I'll go back now.
-
Clint and I were up on Resurrection Wall yesterday. It was my second trip and Clint's fourth. Clint finished rebolting the first pitch while I worked on the pitch two bolt ladder. After six man days of work up there we only have the first four bolts of the bolt ladder left to replace. We still have two ropes fixed at the top of pitch two. Clint is planning to go up there mid-week next week to finish up. What a guy!
BTW, a few weeks ago Clint took a look at the bolts on the Holmgren variation. As feared these are glued-in Star Dryvins which are very, very, very hard to remove. Three have SMC SS hangers and two have Leeper hangers. Showing that he is a smart man, he left them where they stand.
Here are a few photos. Note the RK on the homemade hanger.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/resurrection_6.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/resurrection_6.jpg.html)
Here is the remains of some mid-pitch anchor on the second pitch. Scary!
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/resurrection_12.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/resurrection_12.jpg.html)
-
Am I gunna die if I try it now? ;)
-
Rupert K evidently liked to place bolts in cobbles/lodestones.
I've seen this on several of his other routes.
Nice job guys!
btw - love the stacked washers!
-
Awesome
-
Clint finished rebolting the first pitch....
Bruce, regarding my comment up-thread, what part of that pitch had Adam and I not finished (I honestly can't recall - but maybe a bolt or two near the end of the pitch were still un-replaced?)?
And great work, thanks. This is going on my list for next October (when it is both open and not freezing cold).
-
JC, thanks for all the work. I enjoyed the climbing on stretch 7, but I knew it was a no-fall route. I never repeated it. I think I'll go back now.
Sure thing Bob. We could go back together and take turns leading it.
We didn't have time to climb it.
-
Bruce, regarding my comment up-thread, what part of that pitch had Adam and I not finished (I honestly can't recall - but maybe a bolt or two near the end of the pitch were still un-replaced?)?
And great work, thanks. This is going on my list for next October (when it is both open and not freezing cold).
Brad,
according to Clint, there are eight protection bolts on the first pitch. He says that the first two bolts were already replaced, probably by you and Adam. He replaced four bolts and pulled one that was a duplicate and Denis Erik had previously replaced the last bolt. He also said that you and Adam replaced the two bolts at the anchor and used Fixe double ring hangers.
-
Rupert K evidently liked to place bolts in cobbles/lodestones.
I've seen this on several of his other routes.
Nice job guys!
btw - love the stacked washers!
JC, you got that right! Almost all of the bolts in the aid ladder on the second pitch are in lodestone. And, since it was an aid ladder(at the time) he used primarily 1/4" red heads.
-
Nice job. Such a sweet route...so steep.
I remember that belay and the star dryvin was nasty, nasty.
The 1st pitch is no give-away, the 5.9 crux was hard...right at the belay. So cruel.
Jake make it look easy.
-
I remember that belay and the star dryvin was nasty, nasty.
The 1st pitch is no give-away, the 5.9 crux was hard...right at the belay. So cruel.
Jake make it look easy.
F4,
I tried to pull out the nail on that Star Dryvin with my crowbar and the nail just broke off. Luckily, a few years ago, Greg Barnes at the ASCA gave me a one-of-a-kind 3/8" tuning fork and it lifted the Star Dryvin right out. When I went to deepen the hole to put in the new bolt it turns out the hole was much smaller than 3/8"(it was very difficult to drill it out). My guess is that is why the Star Dryvin nail didn't go in all the way.
BTW, that unnecessary/undocumented belay is now gone. There is a single 3/8" SS bolt there. If you really needed to stop there, right after the crux, it would be easy to clip that bolt and the new 3/8" SS a few feet above it. And it is kind of funny because there is a big knob to stand on at the next bolt above that belay. It would have made much more sense to double up the bolt at that next location.
-
F4,
I tried to pull out the nail on that Star Dryvin with my crowbar and the nail just broke off. Luckily, a few years ago, Greg Barnes at the ASCA gave me a one-of-a-kind 3/8" tuning fork and it lifted the Star Dryvin right out. When I went to deepen the hole to put in the new bolt it turns out the hole was much smaller than 3/8"(it was very difficult to drill it out). My guess is that is why the Star Dryvin nail didn't go in all the way.
BTW, that unnecessary/undocumented belay is now gone. There is a single 3/8" SS bolt there. If you really needed to stop there, right after the crux, it would be easy to clip that bolt and the new 3/8" SS a few feet above it. And it is kind of funny because there is a big knob to stand on at the next bolt above that belay. It would have made much more sense to double up the bolt at that next location.
Think it was a bail station?
-
Thanks guys for the work. Is Reincarnation in your sights?
-
It is kind of funny because there is a big knob to stand on at the next bolt above that belay. It would have made much more sense to double up the bolt at that next location.
Beyer must have snuck in on the route!
-
Sure thing Bob. We could go back together and take turns leading it.
We didn't have time to climb it.
That's a deal.
-
Think it was a bail station?
Munge,
Clint's theory is that it was an end of the day, we don't want to put in anymore bolts today situation. The chain is so thin as are the smash links so it had to have been a temporary idea....or these guys really wanted to tempt fate!
-
Where's Waldo second (2") bolt was replaced with a SS 3 3/4 double wedge. The new bolt is in better rock 3" higher and 12" to the left of the previous placement. The 2" rawl would not loosen and was removed fully engaged, by turning and prying/pressure, which reamed the hole slowly allowing extraction.
Any feedback from Barnes on the cone freezing issues?
-
clink,
I perused the Powers website and the slits in the cone evidently allow compression so continued tightening of the bolt locks the cone to the bolt - preventing it from loosening in vibration situations. The bolts are designed to resist vibration - which in my opinion is not necessarily needed for climbing applications - although we are in earthquake country!
I think they are designed for applications like mounting motorized equipment - ac units, compressors, etc.
Spinners are likely a result of this feature.
The nose cone locks and then the soft rock along the sides of the hole fails allowing the bolt to spin.
How much torque/force did you use to extract the bolt?
What size crowbar?
I would say turning it once locked reams out the hole enough to allow prying it out and repeating the process of turning then prying allows eventual extraction.
-
Clint and I finally finished up rebolting Resurrection Wall. We replaced 29 bolts and removed a few other extraneous ones. The total count was four bolts on Pitch 1; fifteen bolts on Pitch 2 including the anchor which we added SS quick links and rappel rings; five bolts on Pitch 3 including the anchor which we added SS quick links and rappel rings; and five bolts on Pitch 4.
We added two bolts with SS quick links and rappel rings on top of the rock for a rappel descent. The bolts are located about 50 feet northwest of the two bolts added by Brad and Adam when they were up there a few years ago. The bolts are right at the lip of the top of the wall and it is a bit sketchy getting down to them. It is probably best to belay from a 5" oak about 80 feet above the bolts. You can rap about 190' directly down to the top of Pitch 2 and then rap about 185' to the ground from there with double 60m ropes.
You might be able to get down with a single 70m by rapping about 110' to the top of pitch 3 then rapping about 75' to the top of pitch 2 then rapping about 100' to the top of pitch 1 and then 110' to the ground. We didn't try this so all distances and feasibility is just a guess.
Here are some photos of the bolts.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/resurrection_24.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/resurrection_24.jpg.html)
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/resurrection_21.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/resurrection_21.jpg.html)
Here is an example of why they call these bolts "Red Heads." Note the red color of the cone which goes into the bolt.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/resurrection_22.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/resurrection_22.jpg.html)
-
Thank you!
-
Thank you!
Yes! (And how many times can we thank you again and again for all the huge work you do - apply this comment to J.C. and Nelkins too).
-
Holy cow, nice work to Bruce and Clint! Amazing effort!
-
Holy frijole guys - that is some piece of work. Thanks for the pictures too - those are cool.
-
Stretch Seven anchor - The middle bolt is one that someone added after the FA to supplement the original single bolt anchor - a star dryvin with a Leeper hanger. The unreported addition is a non stainless stud bolt (probably a wedge) with a stainless Metolius hanger in questionable rock – dull and hollow sounding. I left that bolt intact rather than destroying a patch of rock to remove it. I removed the original single bolt anchor but the deep cratering and poor surface were not conducive to reusing that location. I found some good rock about 2 feet lower for the new bolt. Based on the way the climb comes up, the only sensible location for the second anchor bolt was on the opposite side of the ridge. A follower can now climb up and easily pass the belayer, staying roped up for the “walkoff” if desired.
I didn’t have a rope, so I used my web-o-lette to rig the new setup/simulate a belay. The master point ended up right at a hole that you can sit in - and there are good footholds below to supplement the comfy belay “seat”.
All the hangers are turned in the direction of the belay pull since this anchor is not meant to be a rappel (the climb is listed as a walkoff in the guidebook).
I stopped by Bouldering Rock and replaced one of the anchor bolts on my way out. There were two old star dryvins – one with a very loose Leeper hanger and one with a SMC death hanger showing very little patina. I replaced the loose Leeper. The SMC hanger is just slightly loose (able to be turned but not floppy). I have seen folks belay their kids from this anchor, so I figured it was worthwhile to replace at least one of the bolts. I'll get to the other one another day.
the "walk" off :yikes:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fL7TsSVKZ8qSkIGxqXevIbAZ3eALZV7VX86cKR48_JJ5TqMJE0AvraRbBbfkXVIE723R1zK9Gg8oVSTffjs4Yf1dxdE3BwZAND_PnAM39dAS1al7uhIaHfiBlGG5fHhzCGUQwooBP4h2cevPFPxcpf=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
Clint and I have been rebolting out at the Yaks. We replaced the two protection bolts on the West Face of South Yak route and added two bolts with SS quick links and SS rings for rappel. On top we left the two original bolts from the 1951 ascent. One was used to rappel off, the other was used for the Tyrolean over to the North Yak(and the first ascent of that pinnacle). You can see the horn they probably lassoed to make the trip. Those dudes back then were bad ass.
Here is the second protection bolt. There are two just like it on top.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/1951_star_dryvin.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/1951_star_dryvin.jpg.html)
We also removed two Star Dryvins with SMC chromoly hangers on top that were added after the FA and in not a very good location and too far apart. BTW, the first protection bolt on this climb was probably added after the FA (it was a 3/8" Star Dryvin with Leeper hanger with the sleeves under the hanger). My guess is that the FA tied off the, now dead, bush/tree near that bolt.
On the South Face of South Yak we replaced the three bolts on the first pitch(1/4" wedge(?) bolts). We replaced the belay bolt at the top of the 1st pitch and doubled it up then added SS quick links and SS rings for rappel. No more gear needed for the belay. On the second pitch we replaced the 1st and 5th bolt in the bolt ladder and also the two anchor bolts at the top of the pitch. We added SS quick links and SS rings for rappel. We didn't replace any bolts on the third pitch.
Here are several photos from the South Face.
1/4" wedge bolt with homemade hanger
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/syak_sface_1.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/syak_sface_1.jpg.html)
This fixed pin looks like someone just pounded in one of the homemade hangers.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/syak_sface_2.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/syak_sface_2.jpg.html)
Swaged cable hangers which were used on almost all the bolts on this climb.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/syak_sface_3.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/syak_sface_3.jpg.html)
Lastly, we replaced two of the three bolts on the Beast of Burden rappel anchor. The third bolt was nice slice of climbing history so we left it on display.
-
We added two bolts with SS quick links and rappel rings on top of the rock for a rappel descent. The bolts are located about 50 feet northwest of the two bolts added by Brad and Adam when they were up there a few years ago. The bolts are right at the lip of the top of the wall and it is a bit sketchy getting down to them. It is probably best to belay from a 5" oak about 80 feet above the bolts. You can rap about 190' directly down to the top of Pitch 2 and then rap about 185' to the ground from there with double 60m ropes.
You might be able to get down with a single 70m by rapping about 110' to the top of pitch 3 then rapping about 75' to the top of pitch 2 then rapping about 100' to the top of pitch 1 and then 110' to the ground. We didn't try this so all distances and feasibility is just a guess.
Or you can suffer like Jake and I did..having to walk back up and over in our climbing shoes. I even called 1800-Pinnacles beta to confirm our sad fate, "you need to walk back"
Great job and glad to you can rap off from the top.
-
Great report Bruce. Thank you for documenting the history so well in words and pictures.
-
On the South Face of South Yak we didn't replace any bolts on the third pitch.
Here are several photos from the South Face.
This fixed pin looks like someone just pounded in one of the homemade hangers.
Swaged cable hangers which were used on almost all the bolts on this climb.
Bruce - I updated the Master List for Resurrection and Yaks and my recent stuff.
I just had a couple quick questions.
There is no 3rd pitch on the topo or in the description for the South Face - is that an error?
Are the fixed pins on the West Face reliable or mythical? (since Brad lists that section as the route crux).
That picture is disturbing.
Those bolt ladder bolts with the swaged cables look like hardware store junk - safety in numbers?
-
Bruce - I updated the Master List for Resurrection and Yaks and my recent stuff.
I just had a couple quick questions.
There is no 3rd pitch on the topo or in the description for the South Face - is that an error?
Are the fixed pins on the West Face reliable or mythical? (since Brad lists that section as the route crux).
That picture is disturbing.
Those bolt ladder bolts with the swaged cables look like hardware store junk - safety in numbers?
There is the start of a 3rd pitch on the South Face. Four bolts head out right, I am not sure if they go anywhere. Previous parties were most likely looking up and not right when scoping where the route went next.
The fixed pins are OK, but not great. You can get cams(take a #1.5-#3 Friend) to supplement the pro. Also, you can tie off a good tree(which you then have to climb though!) above the second pin. Clint and I thought the crux was the overhanging dihedral right after the 1st bolt. There is a squeeze chimney above the 2nd pin which is also difficult, but the single hardest move(protected by a 1.5 Friend) is down low. BTW, that is where the FA in 1951 used their only point of aid.
The swaged cables are just another in a long line of dirtbag climbing hardware. Given that David Rubine mentions them in his guide, they have been up there for at least 25-30 years.
-
Those swaged cables look just fine.
Never got a chance to try that route way back when.
-
Thanks for such a complete response Bruce.
Maybe we should rename that route Road to Nowhere or Unfinished Business!
-
Thanks for such a complete response Bruce.
He is so much more than a short story of a rare fish.
-
I am completely over 5- piece of ship spinners.
My new bit from Fixe drills very fast and seems slightly larger diameter than prior bits.
-
I have been corresponding with Greg Barnes of the ASCA about the problem we have been seeing with 5-piece spinners. Greg sent me a photo of an old 5-piece bolt(right) and new 5-piece bolt(left). You can see that the cone construction is clearly different between the two. He believes, as we do, that this is a design/production problem.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/5-piece_bolt.jpeg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/5-piece_bolt.jpeg.html)
Also, Greg wrote me today to say that rebolters at Red Rocks are reporting the same problem with the 3/8" bolts. BTW, the ASCA is providing 1/2" bolts for areas that allow power drills. Because we have to hand drill at the Pinnacles this is one of the few places which he sends 3/8" bolts. That is probably why this isn't more widely recognized as a problem.
As we have seen with the bolts at the Pinnacles it appears to be the act of pounding the bolt into the hole which causes the damage to the cone. Some of us have been able to funk out the spinner bolt and put a new bolt in the same hole and have it tighten up. Of course, the act of pounding in the old bolt and also funking it out has made the hole a bit larger for the new bolt. I think the tolerances here are very close as Greg Barnes indicated that drilling a 10mm hole(.394" vs .375") is too big for a 3/8" bolt and it will not tighten properly.
One of the potential solutions is to switch to 1/2" bolts. Unfortunately, the 1/2" bolts are 2.75" in length rather than 3.5" in length. My personal feeling is that the 3/8" diameter is fine and there is no reason to
go to 1/2". I prefer the longer length, 3.5" vs 2.75", as the deeper in soft rock the better. Also, though cost really isn't a big issue, the 3/8" bolts are way cheaper.
Greg has a bunch of different manufacturer of drill bits and he is going to see if there is a difference as Clink mentioned. That could be a critical factor.
-
I agree with 3/8 over 1/2.
-
1/2 0.5000 in = 12.7000 mm
3/8 0.3750 in = 9.5250 mm
May be time to try Triplex. The bolt of the future for Pinnacles?
Description
The Fixe Triplex bolt was designed specifically for rock climbing. Triplex is the highest quality climbing bolt available. Triplex uses the same expansion principal as the Rawl 5-Piece bolt. Triplex takes anchoring a step further by eliminating the nose cone with a solid stud system. This design allows Easy Removal for replacement and consists of only 3 Parts. The sleeves expand by tightening the nut which draws the tapered stud from the hole. This system places the threads outside of the rock eliminating hidden thread and nose cone corrosion. The Stainless Steel model is suited for the most corrosive limestone. Triplex can be easily inspected for corrosion by quickly removing the entire unit. This bolt can be used in soft and pocketed rock. Triplex can also be utilized to equip a Glue-In anchor using the same hole size for both bolts. Triplex bolts are reusable!
T424
CE/UIAA Certified
12x75mm
Weight: 80g
304 Stainless Steel
12mm Bolts TORQUE TO: 25 Foot Pounds / 35Nm
Home > Climbing Hardware > Bolts
Print
Fixe SS 12 x 75mm Triplex 3-Piece Bolt
Fixe SS 12 x 75mm Triplex 3-Piece Bolt
Product ID : T424
Sale Price: $6.00
Compared at: $7.50
You Save: $1.50
0 review(s)
E-mail to a friend
Quantity
1
Product is out of stock
Submit
2.9528 in = 75.0000 mm
I wonder how long it would take to drill a 12mm x 3 1/8in hole vs. the 3/8 x 4in hole we are currently drilling?
Instead of chopping a route, it could be removed and used to equip your much better project as JC pointed out to me in less words concerning use of Triplex.
Bruce, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks for inquireing and the facts so far.
I bought the last set of bits and bolts from Fixe in the same order. I don't think Fixe has a clue about the tolerances of what they are actually selling/shipping. Last order I was wailing on the bolt to drive it in the hole with a new bit. the 5-piece spinner I removed last weekend pulled easily, way too easily.
-
I have not drilled a lot of 1/2 inch holes in the Pins but i have drilled a few. Definitely more work. Seems it would be mandatory to locktite the threads.
-
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/5-piece_bolt.jpeg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/5-piece_bolt.jpeg.html)
I knew I should have gone to school for mechanical engineering instead of Geology.
I’m not going back to grad school. I worked enough with engineers at Toyota.
I agree that the design is a problem.
The old bolt in Bruce’s pic has some knurling on the cone and the cone appears to have bigger slits. Both of the cones have a little bump-up in diameter just before the slits. What is the purpose of this bump? Is that the stop point for the cone entering the sleeve?
The description from Powers for how this bolt operates/tightens/expands reads as follows: Expansion occurs at two locations within the drilled hole. First, the cone is pulled into the large triple-tined expansion sleeve, developing a mid-level compression force. Further turning causes the threaded bolt to advance into the threads of the expander cone, forcing its four sections outward. This action engages the base material deep in the anchor hole, greatly increasing the holding power of the Power-Bolt. The bolt and cone remain locked together which prevents loosening under vibratory conditions.
Isn’t this the problem? If the bolt and cone lock together – then further attempts to tighten are going to spin the assembly. One of the problems with the soft Pinns rock is that after you get the bolt to start snugging up, the soft surface under the bolt starts crumbling – or simply crumbles a little from the compressional force of the bolt. You think – oh crap – the hanger is still loose - so you keep trying to tighten it. If you’ve tightened the bolt to the point that the bolt and cone are locked and that causes the surface to crumble a little - then when you try to snug it up again – it just spins – and you think the whole thing is loose.
The torque on these bolts is only 12 foot pounds. That isn’t much.
The installation instructions say to tighten 3 to 4 turns past finger tight.
Do you think maybe we are just overtightening the bolts that spin?
I use a short/mini ratchet handle to try to avoid too much force.
I don’t particularly want to carry a torque wrench but that may be what it comes down to – or at least get one to tighten a few bolts so I can see what 12 foot pounds feels like.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3elBXTwsTzjgnvUQ_9_cdyf4Ev8k5-2c3ra8mtdEE5wOejP2jWlsrBQEW7RwVl71lwbBPBb8lDpAzZfyh_cNaigCXZZlw5zRq3vEij9VXnDUsLINyH6Ihsyz32pqeV9_be7SY5dUybLtPgJXw3hVch6=w794-h286-no?authuser=0)
One thing that has always bothered me is the fact that the bolts are labeled as 3/8 (10mm) on the sleeve – it’s stamped right on every bolt. Just for the heck of it I shoved the nose cone fully into the sleeve and at that point the sleeve measures slightly more than a half inch in diameter. I don’t believe that is the design intent but it certainly shows how far the cone could expand in the back of the hole IF the bolt could spin completely through the nose cone - also probably not the design intent since the cone is designed to smash slightly along the slits and lock the bolt (anti-vibration feature). We have speculated at times that spinners might happen when the back of the hole blows out.
The slits in the nose are designed for anti-vibration situations like mounting motors, compressors etc. They are unnecessary for climbing applications in my opinion.
We need a bolt that has a nose cone without the slits.
Once the spinning condition sets in, you may or may not be able to unscrew the bolt from the cone. I have successfully removed several of these spinners and every one of them has a deformed cone that will not allow the bolt to pass through – the bolt and cone locked together as intended by the design.
The easiest and cheapest way to avoid this scenario is to have a solid nose cone.
The other facet I investigated was the installation procedure. Advancing the cone slightly into the sleeve before driving the bolt seems to be a mistake/causes problems.
The Powers installation diagram specifically says not to do it.
Occasionally I have had bolts that are tight immediately after being driven in. I believe this condition is a result of the upper edge of the nose cone catching on the lower edge of the sleeve. When that happens, the nose cone doesn’t go up into the sleeve.
What I have been doing lately is checking to make sure the nose cone advances smoothly into the sleeve prior to driving the bolt. I screw the cone up into the sleeve to make sure it is operating smoothly and then back it off and disengage the cone from the sleeve just before I drive the bolt into the hole. Additionally, I try to be very careful about how the bolt is started. I tap it gently to get the nose cone in the hole and then make sure the bolt is aligned with the hole for the rest of the driving process.
Here are some screenshots from the Powers website.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ekH0UzDq2uQEIj0FxFtn66AoV375C5u7BVdVOQInMZivA8dNlfO_a5cIUik5-TNMwDUxCcU_it2nLTlWy6PtNPdUJTLb5KOtELRCPn0-8f7XAN1ZLmN0vh2ZUotQr7ZTCXYSy9GgTNKUa0UVbMXeY_=w1006-h505-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d_67yuY5QFnopbHCbuZFpTv5sJB0t_sQAjEC6lvlR5kWzTG8Q_Bjk_XmMN_01a4mqZ8aN0bhbq9J1pQfT7zLxE2GOnj3Vt76qVhMVE42i3ZnkMCGyjz9u4_DhAe3YZc135iuxZd-Ne_3f1Szwx7-Pc=w1006-h421-no?authuser=0)
The Triplex bolts would be a huge improvement over trying to deal with all the finicky intricacies of the 5 piece sleeve bolts and it would eliminate all this speculation and mystery. That bolt combines the best parts of both wedge bolt and sleeve bolt design (one piece stud and solid cone + a single removable sleeve). Simple, strong and elegant – and currently out of stock on the Fixe website. The downside is the bigger hole. One upside is if the hanger becomes loose over time, the bolt can be retightened. I have seen multiple cases of tight 5 pc bolts with loose hangers. Once the bolt and nose cone lock, there is no way to retighten the bolt and get the hanger snug again – unless you try loosening and pounding the bolt in farther – that’s providing the bolt and nose cone aren’t frozen and you’re okay playing with fire. The soft/friable surfaces under the hangers aren’t going away.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dhSNNMA1bg_65NQP_Zk72gyv5-d7SDheBI4goIODKwluA8-uCVAcY3oulE1NDCsgIuMvhCTFseEq-0NnNGLbZgeTAsJ0NDNWOsZ6Uzl7EvRea9NSvKrzG_y1mw6woLmnUKcwO7GRfRYc4Gc0iYhs72=w340-h294-no?authuser=0)
-
One question I have, is the cone spinning or are you stripping the cone due to over tightening. I do not make the bolts real tight since the cone is soft aluminum. I know at least one bolt in the past (years ago) I stripped. I cranked down on it gave it just a bit more then it spun easy. I am confident I over tightened and stripped the cone. 12 pounds is not a lot of force especially with a ratchet. I bet most of the bolts being put it in, including my own, are tightened to more than 12 ft/lbs. I have not used a torque wrench lately but used one a fair bit growing up.
The cone has to have the slits so it can expand as the bolt is threaded through. It is the same idea as the Triplex bolt, the aluminum sleeve has a slit on each side.
I will let you know when I get a spinner.
-
Definitely not stripping the cone. I have examined threads on all failed bolts and cones.
All parts of the bolts are stainless steel. There isn't any aluminum.
-
ok, got it. i assumed the cone would be aluminum.
-
From the pic, what exactly is the issue in difference between old and new?
Sorry, not feeling well but intensely curious.
-
the old one is knurled, then slots are just a bit bigger and the cone perhaps a tad larger in diameter. If I had both styles I would take a micrometer to them. In the pictures they are offset just a tad and I am not sure if this skews the perspective.
-
The cone has to have the slits so it can expand as the bolt is threaded through. It is the same idea as the Triplex bolt, the aluminum sleeve has a slit on each side.
I have to respectfully disagree and ask that you reread the product description from Powers in my post.
The sleeve provides the mid level holding power and the slotted cone adds an extra degree of holding power deeper and a locking action to combat vibration.
I think it is this locking action that is causing the problems when the bolts are over torqued and/or the rock is too soft to withstand the required torque.
The current design Powers non stainless sleeve bolts don't have the slotted nose cone (as far as I can tell from the pictures). I'd be curious to know how they perform in comparison.
-
I prefer to just look at the pictures.
-
Wooooot Woot! :lol:
-
I prefer to just look at the pictures.
Then I am not talking to you anymore.
DIE! - that goes for you too nelkins (aka the new woot boy!)
-
It is just
DIE
-
It is just
DIE
Wait...did you guys hear something?...I think there is a mosquito buzzing around in here...
-
deal with all the finicky intricacies
What we need is
-
You can see that the cone construction is clearly different between the two. He believes, as we do, that this is a design/production problem.
The tolerances of the drill bit used must meet the requirements...
Cutting corners leads to cutting coroners.
-
To reiterate my frustration with the tolerances of bits vs bolts and poor working results of the 5 piece, this is not the 60's-80's.
Instead of a trip to the local hardware store we order bolts from a climbing hardware supplier. Initial bolt failure is something new. FIXE and Powers get your sh#t together.
I feel better now, have a nice day.
-
JC,
Both in the pic have slotted noses. Are you saying stainless does not have the purported weakness?
I'm still not seeing root cause of a design failure tied to a specific model. What I hear is crappy rock can cause failure.
I'll reread later.
-
There's something going on about the new design (I can see slight differences). And, unseen, maybe the manufacturing quality is not as it used to be.
Bad rock would excuse some bad bolts, but there are way more spinners going on than I've ever seen. Way more. And by very experienced bolters (several who've done 100+ bolts each).
-
The old ones worked 100 % of the time.
"the Devil is in the details" has an o-ring to it.
-
The old ones worked 100 % of the time.
"the Devil is in the details" has an o-ring to it.
Clink, I agree, though I managed to create a five-piece spinner on Angle Iron.
-
Clink, I agree, though I managed to create a five-piece spinner on Angle Iron.
Just goes to show there is one in every crowd!
-
Clink, I agree, though I managed to create a five-piece spinner on Angle Iron.
If I remember right, you fell during the placement and punctured your blood bag. Great times climbing with you Waldo through the years. You have tested 2 of my bolts. I took a fall breaking a hold on one of your and Jack's routes, may have been your bolt.
-
If I remember right, you fell during the placement and punctured your blood bag. Great times climbing with you Waldo through the years. You have tested 2 of my bolts. I took a fall breaking a hold on one of your and Jack's routes, may have been your bolt.
Great indeed and I trust we're not done yet - climbing that is. We can kiss the bolt testing good-bye.
-
Waldo wants to hit the ice circuit at Pinns. He's in training for something big.
-
There's something going on about the new design (I can see slight differences). And, unseen, maybe the manufacturing quality is not as it used to be.
Bad rock would excuse some bad bolts, but there are way more spinners going on than I've ever seen. Way more. And by very experienced bolters (several who've done 100+ bolts each).
I agree with Brad. I never had a spinner until last year and now it happens way too frequently.
It is not about bad rock. The bolt just won't advance in the cone. I can unscrew the bolt back out which would not be the case if the rock was bad.
-
JC,
the 5-piece plated steel bolts that I have do have slots on the end of the cone like the SS models.
-
JC,
the 5-piece plated steel bolts that I have do have slots on the end of the cone like the SS models.
Thanks Bruce. Powers did a design change and the new bolts don't look like they used to. I should have ordered a few from Fixe just to check them out. The expansion sleeve looks much shorter than the old design and the blue cap looks completely different. Fixe wasn't selling the Powers plated steel bolts for a while and then they introduced this new design. In the interim they started selling the Cobra bolts - which they still have on their site.
Take a look at Fixe's site and you'll see all what I'm talking about.
-
Thanks Bruce. Powers did a design change and the new bolts don't look like they used to. I should have ordered a few from Fixe just to check them out. The expansion sleeve looks much shorter than the old design and the blue cap looks completely different. Fixe wasn't weren't selling the Powers plated steel bolts for a while and then they introduced this new design. In the interim they started selling the Cobra bolts - which they still have on their site.
Take a look at Fixe's site and you'll see all what I'm talking about.
Yes, the new Power Bolt + is a complete redesign. For the 3/8" models the bolt in the middle is no longer 5/16" but is now 1/4". Powers did upgrade the bolt from Grade 5 to Grade 8 carbon steel. For this reason, Kevin Daniels started selling the Cobra bolts and the ASCA scrambled at the beginning of 2015 to stock up on all the SS bolts it could afford fearing that the SS bolts would also be redesigned.
Luckily, the redesign, for now, has only affected the plated steel models. It is not clear if Powers will do some major redesign for the SS bolts, but not right now.
-
It sounds like you did your homework Bruce. I did not notice that the diameter of the PS bolt was also different. I just checked the specs - that is disturbing even with the higher grade steel.
Here are some details for the time challenged among our group - and also for those that like pictures better :D
Powers PS (plated steel) bolt with head marking explanation.
The old PS bolt heads had no other markings except 3 raised ridges that radiate out like the spokes of a wheel.
The new bolts no longer have these ridges - making identification harder at a glance. The upside is - if you are close enough to see it - the letter tells you the bolt length. Of course that is dependent on memorizing which letter goes with which length - shortest is A (1 1/2") and alphabetically they get longer in half inch increments - E is 3 1/2.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cNsuEpZlWzLLks6t8H2nftsqIxsnEqxyuXERDqARbKFmkOXvqsqhJ_LGAUUELVWAoi8YuOcZKNyGiRWIVrnCHrII-VRoe6-ILkr0HajkXIDYOwnNjmGQz7dsKLn5tjwqLQ7kNotr4C_rAB3FvQ4YsN=w1006-h260-no?authuser=0)
Here is a diagram of the new bolt design with labels.
The main thing I noticed with the new design is how short the expansion sleeve is now.
The blue plastic piece at the end is also different and instead of being a plug, it is a dust cover that covers a retention nut on the end of the cone (see picture above - I have to scroll right to see the whole thing). The cone has no slots.
The old PS bolts looked identical to the current Stainless Steel (SS) versions.
The only way to tell them apart was by luster, the 3 raised markings on the bolt head or with a magnet. PS bolts are magnetic, SS aren’t.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fyol1zbh9cK4MM5_Dh-4rjvY_x0m0LSPRAScYaot6vyRBBFkVuu-6Qze467LTuwHk69eU_f7feFKmPNGcXu-sn7s90kiObUMkL-FbK2BBxxrAvvJ_lgJpj2T6Iem6IzaK0DbKkNJnDHKW2ABqhQrH3=w619-h218-no?authuser=0)
This diagram shows the nut on the end of the nose cone without the dust cover.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eZOI2aNB3936SiDrZYihRc7Aw8f028hDH5MlYJuBgoJ7rYnP6Nke0Azyts19CUiNFkLAu7qegXu7bgK1inzhfsFyxwXnqnpl8-khXt-Ypi-ZylnTeI8xk2Omq6vP1oxq00Z11RQc_1Wim19ofOkfUZ=w180-h215-no?authuser=0)
-
On a side note - clink gave me yet another failed 5 piece yesterday and it was just like the others I have - smashed slits on the nose cone will not allow the bolt to advance.
-
I am in the process of working with Dan Merrick (Banquo to some of you), to setup some testing of 3/8" bolts in 10mm holes. I think the first step will be to see how well they work in some sort of hard medium such as concrete.
-
Clint came up with a suggestion to help out the spinners problem that we plan on trying when Noah and his Ark clear out of the Pinns.
If you look at the cone of the Powers Bolt you will see four slits on the end which creates 2 big sections and 2 small sections. What we think what is happening is that when pounding the bolt in the 2 small sections get bent inward and keep the bolt from turning up the cone. Clint's suggestion is to use a grinder or a file to reduce the size of the bump on the outside of the 2 small sections so they won't contact the rock when pounding in the bolt.
I am still planning on pursuing the 10mm vs 3/8" drill bit alternative as well, but Clint suggestion could be the ticket.
-
If you look at the cone of the Powers Bolt you will see four slits on the end which creates 2 big sections and 2 small sections.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/5-piece_bolt.jpeg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/5-piece_bolt.jpeg.html)
I threw in your prior visual for effect Bruce.
-
What about the magic fairy goo we heard of this weekend? :)
-
I stand by my contention that the design is the problem.
The nose cone on the sleeve bolt is designed to smash slightly.
When the bolt is advanced past the initial tightening phase (sleeve expansion) - it is supposed to expand the slightly smashed cone and add a second stage of holding power.
I think this second stage is where the problem occurs. If the nose cone smashes too much, the torque required to expand the nose cone probably exceeds the torque it takes to start the bolt and nose cone spinning together - the bolt locks in the cone and continued attempts at tightening start the spinning. This is where a torque wrench would be useful - to prevent overtightening.
I have seen some of the spinners "lock out". In other words, you can't tighten the bolt or unscrew it. This suggests to me that the bolt entered the slotted area and expanded it - but then the torque situation described above occurred.
In other cases, the spinner will unscrew - which suggests to me that the cone was so smashed that the bolt couldn't engage the slotted area and simply bottomed out in the cone.
I just measured two different design wedge bolts (Powers and Fixe) and a Powers sleeve bolt to compare the cone diameters.
The wedges have a solid cone that is 3/8"
The sleeve bolt has a slotted cone with a diameter of 7/16" - a full 1/16" bigger than the intended hole it is placed in.
The sleeve bolt will turn 4 full turns into the cone before it starts to engage the slotted area.
That means if a sleeve bolt starts spinning in less than 4 turns - the upper edge of the cone may be stuck on the lower edge of the sleeve and the cone may not be engaged.
I haven't placed very many wedge bolts but when I have - they pounded in easily and tightened up nicely. I also see from the Fixe website that the torque on wedges is 25 instead of the 12 recommended with the sleeve bolts.
-
I got a 10mm SDS bit and did a bit of preliminary testing. First off, I measured the diameter of the 10mm bit versus a 3/8" bit. The 10mm bit measured .410" (10.4mm). The 3/8" bit measured .390"(9.9mm).
Next, I drilled a hole in a piece of concrete with the 10mm bit to see how it performed with a 3/8" 5-piece bolt. It was easier, but there was still some resistance, to pound the bolt into the hole. After the bolt was in the hole it did tighten up completely as a good bolt does in rock.
The next step is to work with Dan Merrick(AKA Banquo) to determine the pullout strength of the 3/8" bolt in the 10mm hole. Hopefully, it is close to spec. Stay tuned for details.
-
I stand by my contention that the design is the problem.
The nose cone on the sleeve bolt is designed to smash slightly.
When the bolt is advanced past the initial tightening phase (sleeve expansion) - it is supposed to expand the slightly smashed cone and add a second stage of holding power.
I think this second stage is where the problem occurs. If the nose cone smashes too much, the torque required to expand the nose cone probably exceeds the torque it takes to start the bolt and nose cone spinning together - the bolt locks in the cone and continued attempts at tightening start the spinning. This is where a torque wrench would be useful - to prevent overtightening.
I have seen some of the spinners "lock out". In other words, you can't tighten the bolt or unscrew it. This suggests to me that the bolt entered the slotted area and expanded it - but then the torque situation described above occurred.
In other cases, the spinner will unscrew - which suggests to me that the cone was so smashed that the bolt couldn't engage the slotted area and simply bottomed out in the cone.
I just measured two different design wedge bolts (Powers and Fixe) and a Powers sleeve bolt to compare the cone diameters.
The wedges have a solid cone that is 3/8"
The sleeve bolt has a slotted cone with a diameter of 7/16" - a full 1/16" bigger than the intended hole it is placed in.
The sleeve bolt will turn 4 full turns into the cone before it starts to engage the slotted area.
That means if a sleeve bolt starts spinning in less than 4 turns - the upper edge of the cone may be stuck on the lower edge of the sleeve and the cone may not be engaged.
I haven't placed very many wedge bolts but when I have - they pounded in easily and tightened up nicely. I also see from the Fixe website that the torque on wedges is 25 instead of the 12 recommended with the sleeve bolts.
There is another possibility, that the standard deviation (we are bunch of deviants, no?) is growing with the larger sample size. As a result, we're noticing more failed bolts since there is a regular crew climbing these days on this particular type of bolt.
Alternatively, I'd offer up that the issue is not "nose cone smashes too much" but that the *change* in design is the issue, but has anyone noticed the outside diameter of the cone looks larger in the one on the right? Is the increased diameter at issue? Or the knurling? <--not just rhetorical questions but trying to get to the crux of which part of the design is being rendered problematic by the condition of the sub-par substrate.
-
There is another possibility, that the standard deviation (we are bunch of deviants, no?) is growing with the larger sample size. As a result, we're noticing more failed bolts since there is a regular crew climbing these days on this particular type of bolt.
Alternatively, I'd offer up that the issue is not "nose cone smashes too much" but that the *change* in design is the issue, but has anyone noticed the outside diameter of the cone looks larger in the one on the right? Is the increased diameter at issue? Or the knurling? <--not just rhetorical questions but trying to get to the crux of which part of the design is being rendered problematic by the condition of the sub-par substrate.
Nice use of crux and substrate.
Nose cone smashes too much satisfies the null hypothesis.
It's no wonder the bolts are so hard to drive in with a 7/16" diameter cone.
I think Bruce may be on to something with the 10mm tests since driving the over-sized nose cone must enlarge the hole at least a little (even with compression/smashing). His measurements only indicate a 0.5mm enlargement so it's no wonder there is still some resistance to driving in the cone. 1/16"= 1.5875mm - so the cone is still 1mm+ oversized.
-
There is another possibility, that the standard deviation (we are bunch of deviants, no?) is growing with the larger sample size. As a result, we're noticing more failed bolts since there is a regular crew climbing these days on this particular type of bolt.
Alternatively, I'd offer up that the issue is not "nose cone smashes too much" but that the *change* in design is the issue, but has anyone noticed the outside diameter of the cone looks larger in the one on the right? Is the increased diameter at issue? Or the knurling? <--not just rhetorical questions but trying to get to the crux of which part of the design is being rendered problematic by the condition of the sub-par substrate.
Munge,
I have been placing the Powers SS 3/8"x3.5" bolt at the Pinnacles since about 2004/2005. I had never had a spinner until last year. Now, I get them all too often so I don't think it is a sampling size issue.
I have asked Greg Barnes to measure the diameter of the two cones. Results to follow.
-
I measured the nose cones on two of the failed bolts I have. The first one measured 13/32 (compressed 1/32) at the little tabs and 27/64 at the big tabs (compressed 1/64). The second one measured 13/32 at both locations. The second bolt failed sooner than the first - it never did tighten properly. The less compressed first bolt tightened initially and then failed during phase two tightening.
The measurements give us an idea of how much compression the soft Pinns rock causes and also how much compression it takes to keep the bolt from advancing and re-expanding the nose cone.
The other thing I noticed is that the blue plastic end piece is very tight in the nose cone - it did not come out since the bolt was unable to advance through the tabs. I have to wonder if that stuck plastic doesn't add to the bolt resistance to penetrate and the torque required to initiate the phase two tightening.
I cannot remove the blue plastic end piece with finger pressure. I also cannot unscrew bolt 2 with finger pressure.
-
+1 for Glue-ins
:)
-
Munge,
I have been placing the Powers SS 3/8"x3.5" bolt at the Pinnacles since about 2004/2005. I had never had a spinner until last year. Now, I get them all too often so I don't think it is a sampling size issue.
I have asked Greg Barnes to measure the diameter of the two cones. Results to follow.
copy that, thx
-
So I went down to Dan Merrick's(AKA Banquo) house today to test the pullout strength of a 3/8" Power Bolt in a 10mm hole. Dan confirmed that the 10mm bit is about 0.02" bigger than a 3/8" bit. I drilled a hole in a block of granite that Clint loaned me. It was easier to pound the bolt into the 10mm hole than a 3/8" hole, but there was still significant resistance.
We hooked up Dan's load cell and did a pullout test. At 6000lbs of static pull Dan's hydraulic press was maxed out so we stopped the test. The 5/16" quick link and Petzl Courer bolt hanger were very deformed and the bolt was out of the hole by about 1/4", but there was no failure.
I think this is good news. Dan seems to think that if you can tighten the bolt all the way to torque specs in the hole with no spinning then you are home free. We clearly saw that in the test.
Also, Dan had another suggestion for fixing the problem. Using his drill press and a 5/16" drill bit(remember the bolt on a 3/8" Power Bolt is 5/16") he removed the threads on the end of the cone to the depth where the slits are cut into the cone. His reasoning is that if the slits bend when pounding in the bolt to impede forward progress, if there aren't any threads than the bolt should continue to turn. I will be testing out this idea as well.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/10mm_2.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/10mm_2.jpg.html)
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/10mm_3.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/10mm_3.jpg.html)
-
Today I added painted SS hangers and painted rappel chains to the hanger-less studs on "The Anvil" (5.3) R. I used the existing SS studs, washers, and nuts. Pulling the rope should work well now and the anchor is directly above the climb. I also found two hangers above a steeper variation of the climb.
Mark Fletcher
-
Banquo Test Lab!
Hi Mark, I didn't even realize there were hangerless studs up there. Or had forgotten.
Where were the hangers for the variation? Facing the trail or on the back side like the regular route?
-
Really glad to see you've joined us here on Mudn'Crud Mark!
(And thanks for doing the work and donating the gear.)
-
Both of the sets of bolts are on the backside, i.e., the side opposite of the trail. The two sets of anchors are about 8-10' apart. The set that did have existing hangers were not above the normal climbing route.
-
Welcome to the forum and thank you for the work.
-
You are welcome. I have climbed at many places throughout the US and the world, but there is something about Pinnacles that brings me back to my favorite place. Solid rock, pfff that's for sissies!
Bruce and Banquero, thank you for the great testing. Does the consensus seem to be that Powers bolts with 10 mm drill seem to be the way to go for bolt replacement? I am a big fan of Fixe wedge bolts, but understand the issues of not using them for bolt replacement since they are not easily pulled when the time is needed for replacement. JC has been hammering on me (sorry about the pun) about Powers bolts despite the issue of spinners, so I have held off getting some Powers bolts because of this issue. Note that I have placed and removed Fixe Triplex bolts. These have to be my favorite, but where I placed then in the Southern Sierra I could use a power drill. Also, it is hard to find metric SDS drills, but I see that Fixe Hardware, where I got my first ones, now has them back in stock.
Lastly, has anyone considered a bulk purchase of metric SDS drills? I assume that ASCA does not provide drills. I have heard that you can get bulk purchases 15-20 pieces at a fraction of the price per drill compared to the single drill price
-
BTW, if someone has not tried out Dan Merrick's (Banquero's) Dammer, you are missing out on the sheeet! I have done drilling at Pinnies with both a BD Yos hammer and the Dammer. The Dammer definitely drills faster. Thank you Dan!
-
JC has been hammering on me (sorry about the pun) about Powers bolts despite the issue of spinners, so I have held off getting some Powers bolts because of this issue.
Mark,
Brad and I placed 3 long 5 pc bolts on a new climb with no issues Monday.
I have a small torque wrench coming tomorrow and am anxious to see what kind of torque I have been putting on my bolts.
The small plastic washer between the bolt head and metal washer is designed to squish out a little when torque is reached.
That's what I normally go by.
Other things I have been doing to try to minimize the chance of getting a spinner:
I over drill my holes to the point of burying the bit flutes.
I use a brush on the holes.
I do not start the cone up into the sleeve.
I try to be really careful when driving the bolt to make sure I am not hitting it too hard and also do my best to make sure I am aligned with the hole and hitting it squarely with the hammer the whole way in.
I try to make sure the surface contact is optimal between the bolt head and hanger and am careful not to keep hitting the bolt once it is fully driven.
These bolts are finicky.
I had one person suggest putting some anti seize on the threads but I haven't tried that yet.
-
Thanks for the details. I am aware of brushing since you have to do that considerably for glue-in bolts, which I have placed. As it happens, our company got a large batch of 10 mm brushes with too short handles for our equipment (the vendor screwed up). The company gave me one free, but I will have to snag the rest of the batch. If I can get more and you need a 10 mm specific size bush, I will give you one sometime.
-
If I can get more and you need a 10 mm specific size bush, I will give you one sometime.
I appreciate the offer. The last couple I got are Simpson and they cover a range - quite tight in a 3/8" hole so they should work fine with 10mm too. I found mine at Pro Build - about $6 each and stout.
I'm going to keep working with the 3/8" bits for now and continue my quest for root cause 8)
-
Field testing report from the Pinnacles on the 10mm drill bits. They work really well. You still have to pound the bolt into the hole with a good effort and they tighten up perfectly. Banquo bench testing showed no decrease in holding power over a 3/8" hole. Personally, I am switching to 10mm bits.
Also, I think it is worth noting that if you look at the sleeve of a Power Bolt it says "3/8 10MM". In our litiginous society I don't think that Powers would put that label on their bolts if it weren't safe to use them with a 10mm hole.
-
I appreciate the offer. The last couple I got are Simpson and they cover a range - quite tight in a 3/8" hole so they should work fine with 10mm too. I found mine at Pro Build - about $6 each and stout.
I'm going to keep working with the 3/8" bits for now and continue my quest for root cause 8)
John,
I think the root cause of the problem is pretty well understood. The cone does deform and in soft rock there is not enough holding power between the rock and the cone to overcome the force necessary to get past the constriction. This same problem undoubtedly happens when the bolts are used in harder rock but the cone and rock are held hard enough to overcome the binding.
In discussing this with Greg Barnes of the ASCA he seems to feel, as do I, that this is not something that Powers is going to fix since this happens to such a small segment of the users of this bolt that there is no need for them to change it not to mention that these fasteners are designed for concrete and Powers really has no obligation to fix them for use in rock climbing.
It is up to us to find the best solution. BTW, I like working with Dan Merrick(Banquo). He has been a Professor of Engineering at San Jose State for many years and a climber for just as long, if not longer, and he really seems to understand what is going on.
-
look at the sleeve of a Power Bolt it says "3/8 10MM".
That is so wrong.
-
Deja Vu?
I think it is this locking action that is causing the problems when the bolts are over torqued and/or the rock is too soft to withstand the required torque.
The cone does deform and in soft rock there is not enough holding power between the rock and the cone to overcome the force necessary to get past the constriction. This same problem undoubtedly happens when the bolts are used in harder rock but the cone and rock are held hard enough to overcome the binding.
One thing that has always bothered me is the fact that the bolts are labeled as 3/8 (10mm) on the sleeve – it’s stamped right on every bolt.
Also, I think it is worth noting that if you look at the sleeve of a Power Bolt it says "3/8 10MM".
Bruce - What brand bits do you recommend and where do I get them?
-
John,
Yup! We are on the same page on this one!
Greg at the ASCA is working to find a source for rebolting. I found a few websites which sell the Bosch 10mm x 160mm SDS bits, but they seem to be in the UK. You can buy them from Fixe for $15.
-
Here is an update on some of the rebolting Clint and I have been doing in the last several months.
Clint, his son, Skylar, and I went up on North and South Fingers. We replaced the two bolts on top of South Finger, one was a wedge bolt, the other was an eye bolt which looks bomber, but is actually just a 3/8"x1" coarse thread lag screw that is screwed into a lag shield anchor. Yikes!
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/eyebolt_1.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/eyebolt_1.jpg.html)
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/eyebolt_2.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/eyebolt_2.jpg.html)
On South Finger we also replaced three of the four bolts(60's or so Star Dryvins). This was a bit of a toss-up as the bolts were added over 50 years ago, but after the first ascent. They are in all the guidebooks(except Hammack's)s so we decided to replace them. We left the bottom bolt as a historical relic.
On North Finger we replaced the old Star Dyvin with aluminum strap hanger and also removed another one of those eye bolts.
Clint and I went up on Daedulus and replaced five of the seven bolts in the bolt ladder of the end of the 2nd or start of the 3rd pitch(depending on how you do the climb). Clint and I replaced the top bolt in the ladder a few years ago so that means we left one bolt(fifth in the ladder) as an original and as a testament to Glenn and Gary. All bolts on this route except the aformentioned 5th bolt in the ladder are now replaced.
BTW, that is a very steep overhang. Clint could not reach the 1st bolt on a rope from above so I came up from the belay and standing on that horribly sloping, loose ledge, clipped myself into one of Clint's aiders. Then, for about a 60 second interval, I would reach up, grab Clint's harness and pull him into the rock so he could drill out the original hole. I would then let go and Clint would swing back out into space. It took a while to drill that 1st bolt! In talking to Glenn Denny about this he had a laugh and said that, yes, his height was sometimes an advantage.
Because Glenn was able to drill the bolts so far apart we were really concerned about using the same holes so as not to make a clip all but impossible by moving a bolt up or down a bit.
Lastly, Clint and I went over to the Nexus/Sexus/Plexus area to do some rebolting. Unfortunately, even after minimal rain for the past two weeks there was still a lot of water on the routes. We managed to replace the anchors on top of the 2nd and 3rd pitches of Nexus with Fixe double ring hangers, and Clint put in a new bolt at the crux of the 1st pitch.
However, we couldn't do any rebolting of the other lead bolts because they were in a running water streak. Also, it appears that Jack Holmgren glued in a lot of the Star Dryvins which means that we have to chop out the old bolt and drill a new hole. We hope to come back in the fall and do what we can.
We also added a bolt to the top of Sexus. We could have chopped out the old bolt and replaced it, but since we would have to drill a new hole anyway we just added a bolt.
Brad and Alan replaced the two bolts on top of Plexus in December 2014.
-
Those lag eye bolts are great!
Maybe I should do an FA using only those (without drop-ins of course) and call it Ay Chihuahua ;D
I know there is a bolt like that on the anchor for Tuff Dome - I'll put it on my list for when the closures lift :'(
I gotta get back out and get to work. I have some things I can work on solo - fingers crossed we don't get too much more rain this season (probably a pipe dream).
-
Here is a photo of what a 'lag shield anchor' looks like.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/lag_shield_anchor.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/lag_shield_anchor.jpg.html)
-
wow, that is scary.
-
why is that scary?
is there some evidence to suggest they don't bite into the rock well? That they shear out of the sleeve?
-
Bomber, dude! What's the problem?
Clint, thanks for replacing the bolts. Wow, I also thought that that eyebolt was a bomber one.
-
wow, that is scary.
Maybe he is talking about that old eye bolt or those shortie star drives that are completely undeformed - musta slid out real nice. Now as far as that newer bolt Bruce posted the pic of - lead and carbon steel...hmm...thread holding power on soft lead and minimum corrosion resistance. They took a rusty one of those off Toog's Direct a while back after I spotted it during a tense 5.9 stemming lead. Glad I didn't fall on that sucker ;D
-
The reason why this is scary is that the lead does not hold up over time. From my experience it gets brittle. When I removed the eyebolt on the South Finger the lead shield just crumbled into a few pieces.
-
I am reposting my comment from the Range Bolts thread here as it is appropriate:
Adam Long wrote:
IMHO the fear that Brad always has of Pinnacles being turned into a climbing gym is actually coming true due to all the cool old bolts being replaced and all the kinks being aligned and justified by what theory seems right. But nothing will ever make Pinnacles safe... not even solid bolts... what a delusion that is... ASCA values seems kind of ironic in the context of the loose nature of The Pinnacles and the inherent risks and problems of placing bolts perfectly and where we want.
As one of the people who does a lot of rebolting at the Pinnacles for the ASCA I feel a need to reply to this comment.
When I replace bolts I try as hard as possible to put the bolt in the same hole or as close to it as possible given the sketchy quality of rock there can sometimes be at the Pinnacles. I don't know how the rumour that we are moving bolts got started but it just isn't true. If anyone ever has any questions on a rebolting project that I have done please feel free to contact me. Please don't start unsubstantiated rumours.
-
Hi, Bruce
I would like to take the time to give my thanks to your work. Well actually the work of you, Clint and John. I do not entirely understand it, but I do admire it. I do not understand it because of the amount of time and effort that the three of you have put into replacing a large quantity of marginal bolts. This is a selfless endeavor with not a lot of reward. I think the quality of your work is quite high. I just want to make sure that you all know that it is appreciated. Nelkins and I talked about this for a bit Saturday while climbing.
I think perhaps what Adam was saying is part of the climbing experience in the past was clipping those historical time bombs. It definitely made the routes more spicy than they actually were. I always had the mindset that I was soloing because we never knew if the bolts were any good. There is a part of me that misses this. With that said, I am very thankful of the work the three of you are doing because if it is not done by you three it may never get done. And, if a person is to clip a bolt it may as well be a good bolt plus there were routes that I had no desire to repeat, not that the route was that hard but because the route was just hard enough and the bolts questionable enough that I really did not want to roll the dice one more time on that route. I think now climbers are more likely to adventure out and check out some of the outlying areas. The fact that you guys are doing this in other climbing areas as well is just amazing.
In summary, I am really glad you guys are doing the work that you are doing because in the future I am not sure if anyone else will, and there are some cool routes that I appreciate having good bolts on.
Many Thanks,
mynameismud
-
Thanks for taking the time to write that mud.
It is a labor of love and my way of giving back to the Pinnacles and our great climbing community.
nelkins and clink have helped me a lot too - they deserve props as well as climberdude, Brad, Jim, mud, munge and anyone else that I may not have mentioned that has swung a hammer for any rebolting efforts throughout the years.
-
Mynameismud,
I think the crux of the issue is what you think of the quality of the bolts that were put in during the FA. If you feel that the bolts people placed when they were putting up routes back in the day were good at the time they were placed then all we are doing is maintaining the 'good' nature of the bolts. Future climbers should not have to deal with bad bolts because they have decayed over time.
If you feel that the bolts which were put in during the FA were crap and have always been crap then, yes, you have a valid argument that we are changing the nature of the climbs by replacing the crap with good bolts.
When Tom Higgins was doing the FFA of Resurrection Wall he grabbed the belay knob at the top of the 2nd pitch, but couldn't pull up resulting in a 30 foot fall on a 1/4" x1" Red Head bolt. I doubt that, 38 years later, that bolt would have held that same fall.
-
Keep it up!
The new bolts are just what's needed to help get more traffic on the routes.
-
Mynameismud,
I think the crux of the issue is what you think of the quality of the bolts that were put in during the FA. If you feel that the bolts people placed when they were putting up routes back in the day were good at the time they were placed then all we are doing is maintaining the 'good' nature of the bolts. Future climbers should not have to deal with bad bolts because they have decayed over time.
If you feel that the bolts which were put in during the FA were crap and have always been crap then, yes, you have a valid argument that we are changing the nature of the climbs by replacing the crap with good bolts.
When Tom Higgins was doing the FFA of Resurrection Wall he grabbed the belay knob at the top of the 2nd pitch, but couldn't pull up resulting in a 30 foot fall on a 1/4" x1" Red Head bolt. I doubt that, 38 years later, that bolt would have held that same fall.
I love the way you put things into perspective Bruce. Nicely said.
-
Bruce, I, too, appreciate and salute all you and Clint have done and continue to do. I have no doubt that your work has saved lives and will continue to do so for decades to come.
Here is an update on some of the rebolting Clint and I have been doing in the last several months.
Also, it appears that Jack Holmgren glued in a lot of the Star Dryvins which means that we have to chop out the old bolt and drill a new hole. We hope to come back in the fall and do what we can.
I find this curious and I'll ask him about it. I began climbing with Jack after he put up the Nexus, Sexus, Plexus complex, but we went up there several times together. I recall replacing a 5/16's compression bolt he didn't like - who did? However, we used no glue then and never at all when we were climbing together.
-
++ what mud said
-
Hi, Bruce
I think some of the original bolts were crap and some at the time of the FA were good to fairly good. I did not mean what I said to have any negative connotation. I think what you guys are doing is quite incredible. The work you guys are doing only changes the nature of the routes due to the fact that they now actually have good quality bolts. This is not a bad thing. And, if it was not for you three it probably would never get done. I would happily buy the three of you a beer or two at any time but Clint does not drink.
Here's to sweat in your eye
mud
-
Clint and I have been using 10mm drill bits during our rebolting for the past couple of trips. It still takes some effort to pound the bolt into the hole, but not nearly as much as with a 3/8" bit which seems to be a very good thing. The bolts tighten up snugly. So far we have not had a single spinner. Is anyone else using 10mm bits? What's your experience?
-
Clint and I have been using 10mm drill bits during our rebolting for the past couple of trips. It still takes some effort to pound the bolt into the hole, but not nearly as much as with a 3/8" bit which seems to be a very good thing. The bolts tighten up snugly. So far we have not had a single spinner. Is anyone else using 10mm bits? What's your experience?
I'm looking forward to changing over. I still have some new 3/8" bits and I have been doing fine with the bolts I have been placing (not that many lately). I would bet everyone else also has at least a few 3/8" bits that they want to use until worn out and then make the switch. I have just been using extra care driving the bolts and make sure they turn 3 to 4 turns as Powers recommends. I also watch for the little plastic washer to start squishing out as you taught me. :)
-
A couple of sources for the bits are Fixe and Mountain Tools. They definitely cost more than 3/8" bits, but that's what we get for not converting to the metric system:-)
-
Hey we saved them in WWII, you'd think they would accept our measurement system.
-
I placed 2 bolts today witha 3/8" bit and they both went in and tightened up real nice.
I then proceeded to get my bit hopelessly stuck in a new hole. At about 3/4 of the way in - it refused to turn and would not budge no matter what I did. I removed the holder and left the bit. I'll have to go back with vice grips to get it out - or I could leave it like the Sword in the Stone :o
-
Doo Eeet.
It will be like a garage door handle but different.
-
Doesn't that go in the trash thread? ;)
Bummer, I've had one of those in granite. I'd be curious to see if the flange on the bit tip broke off in the hole.
-
Bruce, what is the tip profile of the 10mm bits you are using and brand? Pics?
-
Bruce, what is the tip profile of the 10mm bits you are using and brand? Pics?
Bought from Fixe(Larry Arthur also sells these). I am not sure what the brand is but it says Made in Germany so that means it is probably Bosch.
-
The earlier version (and still available) of carbide bits tips were this equal angle type.
The latest type of 3/8s that i received from Fixe has a raised center and drills very efficiently. The flutes don't extend as far up the shaft as the previous model, requiring the bit to be pulled one or two times after they are buried.
I was wondering if your 10 mm Fixe bit has a raised center?
-
clink,
Here is a photo showing 3 bits I am currently using. From left to right they are Hilti 3/8, Silverline 10mm and Bosch 3/8.
As you can see, the Bosch is the only one that has the teet in the center. I ran into some unusually hard rock over the weekend and tried switching between all 3 bits. I didn't see any significant difference in terms of making progress. I also tried drilling a hole with a 3/8 and then reaming it out with the 10mm. It was easy. The difference between 3/8 and 10mm is very slight making the ream easy but the difference in the way the bolt drives and tightens is amazing. I no longer have to fight the 5 piece bolt into the hole or hold my breath wondering if it is going to be a spinner.
The bits without the teet bounce around a little when first starting the hole but once you get it started there is no difference. My progress when drilling is virtually the same. I have a batch of 10mm bits on the way and the cost is less than $4 a bit. They are Tungsten Carbide tipped. Now if El Dingo would just Get Off My Lawn... ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fJ7YG10ZnmthNC4oL68EELFMJW4PRM60TjZwR6-8tZqPqnLBVGcLcgoa7OqWo23rNIRdxtlTtQWeh4VgFeYMcRtJgIvlyHPZ4EHY28FRVomr3P7VmL9lnDcilrcSJRfvpbMJFl7L_cwf59F7sygGfB=w1006-h541-no?authuser=0)
-
Mrs. Cyclops.
-
The earlier version (and still available) of carbide bits tips were this equal angle type.
The latest type of 3/8s that i received from Fixe has a raised center and drills very efficiently. The flutes don't extend as far up the shaft as the previous model, requiring the bit to be pulled one or two times after they are buried.
I was wondering if your 10 mm Fixe bit has a raised center?
Clink,
the tip profile looks like the rightmost bit in JC's photo. Since the bit says 'Made in Germany. It is probably a Bosch bit.
-
the tip profile looks like the rightmost bit in JC's photo. Since the bit says 'Made in Germany. It is probably a Bosch bit.
Thanks for the info. I can tell a difference, not sure what part of the new design it is. I have bits going back to the eighties. It would be interesting to a depth vs. time comparison.
They are Tungsten Carbide tipped. Now if El Dingo would just Get Off My Lawn... Grin
I must have the proper instruments in case JC needs me to perform emergency trepanning to save his life.
-
I think clink is the drilling standard, at the Pins anyway.
-
I must have the proper instruments in case JC needs me to perform emergency trepanning to save his life.
Four syllables. ;D
-
Two back. :D
-
I think clink is the drilling standard, at the Pins anyway.
He's got my vote.
-
Anyone headed to Red Rocks this weekend to attend the "Future for Fixed Anchors II" conference?
https://www.accessfund.org/news-and-events/news/access-fund-to-convene-future-of-fixed-anchors-ii-conference
The Access Fund asked me to attend the first one in 2012, but I had a scheduling conflict. Luckily, I can make this one. I will be on a panel discussing a bunch of topics. They want me to speak on hand drilling. It seems like this is only a problem for us Californians (Yosemite and Pinnacles). They also want me to speak about dealing with local organizations to obtain permission to rebolt. Thankfully, we don't need to do that at the Pinnacles or Yosemite, but in Colorado where I live part of the year it is a reality for places like Boulder and outside of Golden(yes, Munge, where they brew Coors beer).
Several of us will be giving a clinic on the second day on how to remove different types of bolts.
If you are planning on attending let me know.
-
I got out Friday, April 1st for some rebolting and recon.
I started at The Proctor which had a 1/4" single anchor bolt with a Leeper hanger.
I pulled the old bolt and reused the hole and then placed another bolt.
The summit now has a proper 2 bolt anchor.
The spring in my rocpec broke while I was finishing drilling the 1st hole.
Luckily the ball bearing didn't roll off the crag when things fell apart.
I put the pieces back together and then taped the whole thing closed so it couldn't fall apart again.
All I could think was - "glad that didn't happen on stance on an FA!"
I had to "limp" the second hole with the taped array.
Old bolt at The Proctor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dKAoF7yce0TgXXNiTeHgfZTp2N5yhH58g-5gXR7lnw7VTdVIyVhKsfAzBM6kmgwCc5V5bTbEEU-aj554r6SrRVEtEKgwqg_GSTHpLSuQwu60vVNdg2lmPWV_fyoRmIQljPdZu-3tV1Hi9i_1ypVIdo=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
Replacement anchor The Proctor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e9-zflslccSjQ1S81R031XrTxb0l_AIfYclWnQIUboTPzXIriVbBSyL3gx6hrd637qO370DzxUZccC5-ZFhbV4uCTFbJW3IkdiN4DwZj31goyj1CdteFWcnFqGUKTWRhDKGPpp4UNQo3VyaKNfDL-t=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
I popped over to Teaching Rock to give those anchors a look. All but one hanger is modern and the one that is homemade is beefy. That hanger and the bolt in it are rusted. It’s the one above the 5.4 route. Some of the other hangers are loose but all the bolts are tight. I don’t see this as a concern, since there are so many bolts within close proximity of each other. If someone is concerned, they can rig back ups between adjacent anchors.
I went out to the Sisters next to check on the hive in the pocketed rock that leads up to Silhouette Arete.
The "bees" are fully active again and swarming around the various climbs - anyone with allergies might want to rethink leading anything around Heaven's Gate or 4th or 5th Sister.
I had intended to inspect the bolts on Going The Wong Way but the swarm put an end to that.
Maybe Gavin or Alacia can tell us what kind of "bees" are in this hive in the rocks – yellow jackets perhaps? I didn’t want to get close enough to find out.
clink had expressed some concern about the anchors and bolts at Upper Crust. I scrambled up top and looked things over. Some of the bolts are not stainless but the majority of the hardware is modern and all the hangers are tight. Some of the bolts are showing light surface rust.
The only anchor hangers that are homemade are on Organ Grinder and the bolts are studs - so there is no way to tell if they are wedge bolts or split shafts. They are tight and showing light surface rust. All bolts are 3/8. There are no star dryvins or Leepers on anything I could see.
Bolt 5 on Relayer is a hangerless stud.
-
1. Rings should go on #314, Gerties SW Face Far Left. There are anchors, but getting down requires downclimbing a 4th class chimney (and not at all third class). Request by Mungeclimber.
2. Little Sister Spire needs camo chains. Note that bolts are recessed from edge (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7014/6409695591_d5b909ec65_z.jpg). It had someone's bright cordage for a rap station. This is a visible spire from the trail. Request by Mungeclimber and Squiddo.
3. Heaven's Gate - second to last bolt needs re-aligning. FA author has approved moving, [urlhttp://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1587.0]if old hole is patched and new hardware uses stainless[/url].
4. Lucky 13. One hanger and bolt has galvanic corrosion but is fairly large bolt but potential thin type SMC hanger. Other anchor bolt reportedly flexing. Small diameter quick links need replacing with camo chain? They were small diameter. Request by JC.
5. Osiris - could use upgrade. Unknown "old" bolt condition. Request by JC.
6. Toog's Gallery - Lead bolts and anchor bolts at top of p1 look 1/4". Request by JC.
7. NE Corner of Monolith - Rusty Star Dryv needs replacing. However, "hanger" is special type "drilled piton". After inspection, brushing, and painting, it would be nice to leave the hanger in place if it appears ok. Possibly one of the last ones at Pinns. Request by JC and Mungeclimber.
8. Big Marmot anchor. Needs replacing smaller diameter rusty POS and camo chains.
9. No Smiles. First bolt is bad thin old SMC type hanger. Bolt appears to be good.
I'll try and add the list of already replaced items later...
Hi Rob,
I've been trying to do some cleanup of open items.
I'll address your items here.
1. I free soloed this line last year (5-1-15). I wrote in my climbing log that it took more time and energy to get back down than it did to free solo the route. If we are going to add chains for rappel, then why not make this a regular route rather than a TR. Technically it is no longer a TR since it has been led - right? Has anyone else free soloed this thing? I wrote in my log that it has knobs that could be slung or could be bolted ground up with as little as one bolt for the crux move. After that it is lower angle and easy.
Does anyone else care to comment? Would anyone care to contact Rubine regarding this route?
2. This item is resolved.
3. I have plans to relocate this bolt when the hive at 4th sister goes dormant. I also plan to rebolt Silhouette Arete and inspect/replace bolts on Going The Wong Way.
4. This item is resolved.
5. This item is resolved.
6. This item is resolved.
7. This item is resolved.
8. This item is resolved.
9. This item is open. I can put this on my to do list when the closures are lifted. It sounds like only the hanger needs replaced. My records indicate that you replaced bolt 2 in Dec 2012.
-
#1 yes. Leave as is.
-
Clint and I have been out rebolting over the past few months on Dragonfly Dome, Egg Shell, Freedom Dome, Condor Crags and the Yaks. Here is a quick synopsis:
Dragonfly Dome:
We removed the two old anchor bolts. My friend Nick Badyrka had placed a 3/8" stainless bolt on the summit in 2003 to facilitate a tyrolean traverse from Dragonfly to Side Horse. We used that bolt and drilled another 3/8" stainless and put the chains on these two bolts. BTW, I unscrewed the top protection bolt which Brooks White and I placed in 1995. It is a 3/8" Rawl plated 5-piece with SS hanger. The bolt shaft was shiny and looked nearly new after 21 years!
Egg Shell:
We replaced the 2nd protection bolt which was an old 3/8" star dryvin. We replaced one of the anchor bolts which was a 3/8" Rawl split shaft.
Freedom Dome:
we replaced the homemade hanger on the 3rd protection bolt(3/8" wedge bolt installed by David Rubine in 1990) and the Leeper hanger on the 2nd protection bolt(3/8" plated Rawl 5-piece Brooks White and I installed in 1995). We replaced the first bolt(1/4" Rawl split shaft). We removed the poorly placed Star Dryvin(next to a good Star Dryvin) on Captain Crunch.
Condor Crags:
We replaced the rappel anchor between the two summits with SS hardware. We replaced one of the anchor bolts on the North Summit rappel anchor. We replaced 8 of the 10 bolts on For ME. We ran out of sunlight, energy and bolts all at about the same time.
Yaks:
We replaced the five bolts on Beast of Burden. We also removed an old Star Dryvin just sitting out in nowhere behind the Yaks rappel.
-
I updated the Master List
-
JC,
thanks! And thanks for all your hard work! In the 1990's I did a lot of solo rebolting. It's more fun to have somebody else around to hear you swearing when that damn rusted Star Dryvin just won't come out!
-
JC,
thanks! And thanks for all your hard work! In the 1990's I did a lot of solo rebolting. It's more fun to have somebody else around to hear you swearing when that damn rusted Star Dryvin just won't come out!
No problem Bruce. I really like working on stuff. I'm getting back to it slowly but surely. I agree that it is better to have someone to share the agony and ecstasy with ;D
Here's a pic of that old bolt on Freedom Dome :o
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ccBtBwY-tM-7kIL-4hvPgZsvM8hc7hGlijeqsDYKf5p6MKeHU4VhGRY439SzIYAQV0Y4OypqwJCegHzC06J7EN6ADN0utmqBEGYbDaRn9cPA8gLThE14EuQaR7Y3Jxt_1ncWPFEcCvBg98qwUmcEkq=w689-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
I always stared at those bolts on captain crunch thinking....wtf?
On Eggshell did you replace the 1 star on the Holmgren route??
-
John,
that hanger was actually made for sale in the 1960's by Cassin in Ialy.
F4,
the route on Eggshell was put up by Tom Higgins. Captain Crunch on Freedom Dome is a Holmgren route. We removed a very poorly placed Star Dryvin on that route. I am not sure which bolt it was, but there was a much better looking bolt next to it.
-
I went out to the Sisters next to check on the hive in the pocketed rock that leads up to Silhouette Arete.
The "bees" are fully active again and swarming around the various climbs - anyone with allergies might want to rethink leading anything around Heaven's Gate or 4th or 5th Sister.
I had intended to inspect the bolts on Going The Wong Way but the swarm put an end to that.
Maybe Gavin or Alacia can tell us what kind of "bees" are in this hive in the rocks – yellow jackets perhaps? I didn’t want to get close enough to find out.
After reading that there are 475 species of bees at Pinnacles...
-
Hey Bruce,
It was Preferred Freedom...On the right side of Freedom Dome, using natural gear up to a small roof with 1 bolt.
I still trip at the fact that the Digger Pine branch was NOT in the way of the EggShell 5.8 route when I did it with Mungie 20 yrs ago!
Thanks!
-
475! A new goal for Brad and JC. Documentation of how many species they can touch, how many times they get stung, FULL SIZE pics of swelling.
-
475! A new goal for Brad and JC. Documentation of how many species they can touch, how many times they get stung, FULL SIZE pics of swelling.
DIE!
-
...FULL SIZE pics of swelling.
Um, that's pretty clearly J.C.'s department ;)
-
Those "Sisters" bees have always minded their own business when I've passed through their neighborhood. May it always bee so.
-
Triplex can also be utilized to equip a Glue-In anchor using the same hole size for both bolts. Triplex bolts are reusable!
What is the intent?
-
Found it under the 10mm glue in descrip.
When placed properly in good stone glue-in bolts are the strongest anchors available. Patience and experience are required when installing glue-in bolts. The mixing and installation of the glue is the key to a correctly placed glue-in. This type of bolt works excellent in soft or pocketed stone. Although not widely used in the US glue-in bolts are common in Europe.
The 10mm bolts require a 12mm or 1/2" diameter hole.
If you have questions regarding glue-in bolts or their placement please feel free to contact us.
The FIXE Triplex removable Bolt can be placed in the same hole as the 10mm glue-in while establishing a route- which can be especially helpful in severely overhanging areas.
-
Looks like this one was hanger #3.
Interesting since the FA on the route is 1939 and this catalog is from '68.
The pitons on Scout appear to be the #1 Ring angles shown on the left.
I've got a batch of those old ring angles! It was some of my first climbing pro. I think they are 50s surplus, totally bomber!
-
Today I added two painted rappel chains to the two rappel ring hangers on Middle Tower of Machete Ridge (I call it "Middle Tower Continuation" (5.5) since that is what Dave Rubine called it. The two rappel rings hangers are over the edge, so it has always been very difficult to pull the rope. Now it is much easier. Note that as you start to rappel, it appears that you are pulling only against the left chain, but as you descend further, the pull equalizes onto both chains.
I watched a party of three climb "Cuidado" (5.10c) today. I have never seen anyone climb this. They were probably unaware of the request to climb this route only on weekdays due to its position directly over the Balcones Caves. I watched them for quite a long time. No yells of "Rock" so I assume they did not pull anything loose.
-
Thanks Mark.
I'll get it on the Master List tomorrow :biggrin:
How were the rap stations on the descent looking?
-
The rap bolts and hangers in the gully look great, solid enough that I trusted to use them as a rope solo anchor for the climb "Barber's Backside". I did notice that the left anchor at the top of the ridge appeared to wobble a very small bit in the hole. This is not one of the recently installed rappel anchors, but rather at the saddle where the gully descent begins and "Middle Tower Continuation" starts. It is probably ok for now, but will probably have to be replaced in the future. I think this is a Rawl 5-piece.
I removed some webbing, cord, and an old D-carabiner from the tree in the meadow where people mistakenly rappel down instead of doing the 4th class ledge traverse. I have been tempted to make a laser engraved stainless steel tag to put around this tree directing climbers to the correct way to descend rather than rappelling from this tree.
The holds on "Middle Tower Continuation" were well chalked, so climbers beside me have been up there despite the ban on climbing the entire west side of Machete Ridge. I assume they are approaching this either by "Fish Breath Arete" or the descent gully plus "Barber's Backside".
On another note, I noticed that there is an old 1/4" bolt stud on the climb "Barber's Backside" (5.6) that is at the base the steeper headwall that has the two replaced bolts, i.e., below the two replaced bolts. I wonder if this was a belay anchor bolt since it is on a slight ledge and is at a low position that can only be used now as a starting foothold from the ledge? Does anyone know if this bolt is original to the climb? If this is an original bolt, it would be nice to replace it since from the current belay of the two rappel rings far below, the first replaced bolt is quite high.
It was exciting and scary to watch the three climbers on "Cuidado!". I have never seen this route being climbed before. I did warn hikers I saw to be aware of the climbers above.
-
Hey Mark,
Barber's as I understand it is more of a utility route fpor rescues. It doesn't climb very well and you are right - the first bolt is a ways up and the rock is very mossy and dirty. Probably why Kat and I did not see the old 1/4 inch bolt. There is a belay bolt at the very tippy top of the gully - left of where the climbing up the face for Barber's starts. Did you see that one?
As far as I'm concerned, any old 1/4 inch bolt is fair game to be replaced unless it serves no legitimate purpose. Examples I can think of that fit the "of no use" category are an old 1/4 inch stud I found on the Love Handles 3rd Class route and another at the end of Old Original's 3rd pitch.
Speaking of OO, the chalk on that climb could be old since there has been such a small amount of rain since last year. It amazes me that anyone would use chalk on that climb although it can be blistering hot if you don't get up there early. It also would not surprise me if people are still going up there through the closed area. The sign at Destiny Wall on the approach is very obvious and clear about not going up there.
As for the rappel tree it is a great place to collect booty. You could probably go up there once a week and clean the tree. Even if a sign were installed, unless people have the directions for the 4th class descent, they still wouldn't know where to go. A big part of the problem is the information on Mtn Proj telling people to carry two ropes and rappel from the tree. I often meet people on both sides of the park that do not have the guidebook and are going on limited or bad information posted on Mtn Proj. I thought about going on there to try and make corrections - but where do you start?
We can talk some more about this next weekend if you like. I can give you my other thoughts.
-
Mark,
I added the chain info to the Master List.
Thanks for the updates.
-
John,
No, I did not see the bolt at the very top of the gully, but years ago I believe I pulled out or removed a hanger from a bolt on the left wall (as climbing up or rappelling down) somewhat near the top of the gully. Perhaps I removed the hanger and left the 3/8" stud and that may have been what you saw. I removed it since I understood that it was a rescue lower station bolt installed during the descent from a rescue and rappel bolts had been recently (at that time, since removed) in the gully. As you are probably aware, these rappel bolts were removed, but then were again installed about two years ago.
Next time I go up in that area, I will look at the 1/4" stud. I could not find any reference to "Barber's Backside" route in any of the previous guidebooks to check for number of bolts. I suspect that if this Machete Ridge closure becomes a permanent annual situation that more people may be climbing "Barber's Backside".
Yes, I agree about the need for directions also. I hope Brad's guidebook update will clarify this because even the present guidebook mentions that slings and even a fixed rope may be on this tree. Perhaps if we posted onto Mountain Project corrections to the descent route and the need for two ropes. Yes, years ago when the lower rappel points on the top of the ridge were not in such good shape I carried two ropes and did a single two rope rappel from the top of the ridge. However today the rappel stations are all in good shape and you only need a single rope. Let's talk at the PCAD.
-
The second to the last bolt on Big Bad West has a spinning hanger and a wobbly bolt.
-
That bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith should be in the National Historical Registry. It's the only one left at Pinnacles that I know of. Anybody else know of another? I think a modern bolt nearby and perhaps a little plaque next to it are in order.
There's one up in the high peaks, on the Anvil I believe.
-
The second to the last bolt on Big Bad West has a spinning hanger and a wobbly bolt.
clink is planning to give that climb some attention at some point in the near future.
-
clink is planning to give that climb some attention at some point in the near future.
Sweet! BBW and Passion Play are both in need of some love. The first bolt on PP is pretty nasty.
There is also a new plated rawl style bolt on top of the Shepherd with a link on it. The bolt looks like a much better anchor than the old one. However, the link on this new bolt and the link on the old bolt does not facilitate a rappel, as both links are laying flat, not perpendicular.
-
Sweet! BBW and Passion Play are both in need of some love. The first bolt on PP is pretty nasty.
There is also a new plated rawl style bolt on top of the Shepherd with a link on it. The bolt looks like a much better anchor than the old one. However, the link on this new bolt and the link on the old bolt does not facilitate a rappel, as both links are laying flat, not perpendicular.
Thanks for the reminders Max.
I can take care of the stuff on Passion Play and the Shepherd.
My plan is to get two new anchor bolts on PP - there are 3 star dryvins with SMC hangers up there now that are in decent shape. I haven't looked at the lead bolts on that for a long time so I can check those and replace if needed. FA is 1980 so those lead bolts are 36 years old.
For the Shepherd I will replace the old anchor bolt and remove the screwlinks since that whole formation can be easily walked off and is shown that way on the current topo. I have routinely free soloed the Lamb and foolishly led Sheepish. The Wolf is a cool climb too (newer climb not in the book). That anchor is shown as only 1 bolt on the topo but I don't have a problem with replacing the old bolt to make it a solid 2 bolt anchor. Someone added that newer bolt before I started climbing at Pinns so I don't know how long it has been there but have noticed it looks beefy. I can take a hard look at it too.
I'm not sure we should replace that shared lead bolt for Lonesome Bolt and Sheepish. Might be a bad idea to encourage traffic on either of those, especially Lonesome Bolt which is in the guidebook corrections as 5.8X. You are going to deck if you blow either of those climbs making the bolt worthless. The gear on Sheepish is useless too. I slung the big lodestone and then cast off into the choss - rock quality is spooky from there to the top. That bolt is in a cracked lodestone too. Too bad those climbs are all Unknown on the FA's. Wasted resource imo.
-
Thanks for the reminders Max.
I can take care of the stuff on Passion Play and the Shepherd.
My plan is to get two new anchor bolts on PP - there are 3 star dryvins with SMC hangers up there now that are in decent shape. I haven't looked at the lead bolts on that for a long time so I can check those and replace if needed. FA is 1980 so those lead bolts are 36 years old.
For the Shepherd I will replace the old anchor bolt and remove the screwlinks since that whole formation can be easily walked off and is shown that way on the current topo. I have routinely free soloed the Lamb and foolishly led Sheepish. The Wolf is a cool climb too (newer climb not in the book). That anchor is shown as only 1 bolt on the topo but I don't have a problem with replacing the old bolt to make it a solid 2 bolt anchor. Someone added that newer bolt before I started climbing at Pinns so I don't know how long it has been there but have noticed it looks beefy. I can take a hard look at it too.
I'm not sure we should replace that shared lead bolt for Lonesome Bolt and Sheepish. Might be a bad idea to encourage traffic on either of those, especially Lonesome Bolt which is in the guidebook corrections as 5.8X. You are going to deck if you blow either of those climbs making the bolt worthless. The gear on Sheepish is useless too. I slung the big lodestone and then cast off into the choss - rock quality is spooky from there to the top. That bolt is in a cracked lodestone too. Too bad those climbs are all Unknown on the FA's. Wasted resource imo.
I was just out there yesterday and the middle star dryvin has been replace by a nice looking wedge? type bolt and a nice hanger. There is a star dryvin on either side of that, for a total of 3 bolts. And I thought I read somewhere that the first bolt on PP had previously been replaced, but I don't believe that anymore, it is nasty and I sure wouldn't want to fall on it.
I agree about the wasted resources on the shepherd. The regular route is cool and nicely protected, until you get past the two aid bolts, then it feels like a solo. I haven't climbed the wolf yet.
Let me know if you need an extra hand on any rebolting projects! I'd love to get out there and help replace some of that old mank.
-
Yep, forgot about that added/replaced bolt on PP. I think it's a SS wedge w a Metolius hanger. I'll check to see if it has a letter on the end of the stud for length and put a torque wrench on it. Replacing one of the star dryvs may suffice if it checks out okay. It is a real bummer when folks add bolts or replace stuff and then don't report it properly. I don't have any record of a rebolt on PP.
It looks like Fletcher did that anchor bolt on the Shepherd back in 2000 (on my Master List).
Thanks for the offer. We can talk at the PCAD.
-
Yep, forgot about that added/replaced bolt on PP. I think it's a SS wedge w a Metolius hanger. I'll check to see if it has a letter on the end of the stud for length and put a torque wrench on it. Replacing one of the star dryvs may suffice if it checks out okay. It is a real bummer when folks add bolts or replace stuff and then don't report it properly. I don't have any record of a rebolt on PP.
It looks like Fletcher did that anchor bolt on the Shepherd back in 2000 (on my Master List).
Thanks for the offer. We can talk at the PCAD.
There is for sure a new bolt on top of the shepherd, a total of two now. It wasn't there last month. It is a couple feet climbers right(if you just climbed the reg route) of the older one. Its a plated steel with some hardware store quick link. The older one (fletchers?) thats been there years has some rust, a fat Malaysian quick link, and is in a cracked lodestone. I imagine that one is fletchers as the age looks right and its been there since I first climbed at the Pinns.
-
Yep, forgot about that added/replaced bolt on PP. I think it's a SS wedge w a Metolius hanger. I'll check to see if it has a letter on the end of the stud for length and put a torque wrench on it.
There's no number on the end of the stud, but a little hollow dimple/hole. I should've taken a pic but I rarely bring a camera.
-
There is for sure a new bolt on top of the shepherd, a total of two now. It wasn't there last month. It is a couple feet climbers right(if you just climbed the reg route) of the older one. Its a plated steel with some hardware store quick link. The older one thats been there years has the Malaysian quick link on it. Is that Malaysian one fletchers?
Gotcha. I'll have to take a look. I thought the old bolt you mentioned might have been one that I missed. I only ever remembered seeing one bolt up there and it was beefy with a fat link. As you said, someone must have added one and the one you are calling old is the one I have always seen (last 5 years). The one I have always seen up there has a fat screwlink on it - maybe 1/2 inch instead of 3/8. I can understand someone wanting a 2 bolt anchor rather than a single, but if someone added a bolt up there to rappel from, it makes me fear for the future of Pinns. The walkoff is so mellow. You have peaked my curiosity.
-
There's no number on the end of the stud, but a little hollow dimple/hole. I should've taken a pic but I rarely bring a camera.
It's kind of a long shot since only some manufacturers put a letter on the stud end - Powers uses a stamped letter on their power bolts (wedges)
-
The walkoff is so mellow.
I agree, its likely faster to walk off than deal with the hassle of rappelling
-
Clint Cummins, Dan Merrick(AKA Banquo), John Cook and I were out at Discovery Wall yesterday to test out some new tools for removing bolts, primarily wedge bolts and Rawl split shafts.
Dan made a couple of tools and I brought a couple of tools which Greg German(AKA Gregger Man) made. We pulled and replaced 8 wedge bolts(some 30 years old!) and one Rawl split shaft. Here are some photos to illustrate what we did.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_1.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_1.jpg.html)
Dan has been working hard to come up with a way to replace wedge bolts without using power tools. The first step is to tap the bolt back into the hole. Next you try to spin the bolt in the hole to put a groove in the shaft of the bolt where the cone slides up. If you can get a deep enough groove, when you try to pull out the bolt, the cone can't slide up the shaft so the pullout strength of the bolt is decreased to a force that allows removal without breaking it off in the hole.
We were able to remove all but one wedge bolt and then drill out the hole to 10mm from 3/8" and lengthened it an inch or so for the 3.5" SS Powers bolt to be inserted. BTW, those of you who are still having spinning problems with 3/8" Powers bolts, it is a simple and easy fix to switch from 3/8" to 10mm bits.
Here's a photo of using a speed wrench to spin the bolt in the hole(after the nut and hanger have been removed) to create the critical groove. There is an adapter at the end of the wrench which screws into the exposed stud. Needless to say, for these tools to work properly, or at all for that matter, the threads on the end of the bolt have to be in pretty good shape.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_2.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_2.jpg.html)
Here's a photo of the cool tool that Dan made to pull the bolt. It is a hydraulic pop rivet gun that can exert about 3300 pounds of force. It only has a workable throw of about 3/4" so you need to insert spacers as the bolt comes out of the hole. Dan made a fitting which screws into the tool and also threads onto the end of the bolt stud.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_3.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_3.jpg.html)
Viola!
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_4.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_4.jpg.html)
Here's a photo of the pulling tool that Greg German made. Not as nice as Dan's tool, but it gets the job done. It is seen here pulling out a 3/8" Rawl split shaft. You screw the stud into one end of the tool and use a BFW to turn the big nut on the other end.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_6.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_6.jpg.html)
The obligatory before and after photos.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_7.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_7.jpg.html)
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z213/brucehildenbrand/disco_8.jpg) (http://s189.photobucket.com/user/brucehildenbrand/media/disco_8.jpg.html)
-
Bruce,
Just so I am clear, you four managed to reuse seven out of eight holes?
The rock on Discovery is harder than many other areas in the park, but even still, that is really, really impressive work.
About how long (if there's an average) to pull one of those bolts out?
-
Bruce,
Just so I am clear, you four managed to reuse seven out of eight holes?
The rock on Discovery is harder than many other areas in the park, but even still, that is really, really impressive work.
About how long (if there's an average) to pull one of those bolts out?
Brad,
If you see the bolt still in one piece, the hole was reused.
I only remember one bolt that broke off.
It is the spinning that is a royal pain.
Really slow and tedious by hand.
I can give you more details tomorrow.
The good news is we have a method for reusing holes.
-
...the good news is we have a method for reusing holes.
Very pleasing. I'd like to see it in action!
Remind me to ask you how long it takes per bolt and how much the gear weighs.
-
Brad,
the key is being able to thread the tools onto the bolt stud. If the threads are bunged up then it's really not possible. Secondly, it is critical that you be able to spin the bolt in the hole. One bolt was "threadable", but we could not get it to spin. Lastly, using some sort of abrasive compound(sandblasting powder or jeweler's paste in an aqueous solution) is critical in being able to more easily score the cone.
It probably takes 5-10 minutes of spinning to be able score the cone. With the 3.5" wedge bolts we removed we had to drill about an extra inch for the 3.5" SS Powers. If you trade off not having to drill the initial two inches and you get to re-use the hole, the 5-10 minutes of spinning doesn't seem so bad.
BTW, these techniques are coming from the guys in Colorado, mostly Greg German(AKA Gregger Man). I have been working with Dan for the past 4-6 months to try and adapt them for non-power tools. Luckily for all of us, not only is Dan a very sharp guy when it comes to designing tools, he is also very motivated to find a good solution! We are very fortunate to have him in our area and on our team!
-
very cool!
-
Fixe has introduced a new brand of hardware - the PLX series.
You can read about it here http://www.fixeclimbing.com/public/FIXE-CLIMBING-EN-2016-17.pdf on page 22.
I received some of the new hangers with an order yesterday and was thrown by the magnetism - a bit stronger than the usual stainless products I receive from Fixe. I have learned over the last year that varying amounts of magnetism can occur in stainless steel - it is not an "acid test" to distinguish carbon steel from stainless steel. Luster is not reliable either. Like so many other things these days, we have to keep up with changes and be aware of any codes that manufacturers use to identify specific materials. Some manufacturers like Powers also use codes to help identify bolt length. I realize that many climbers will just clip and go but for those of us with a greater interest or an innate curiosity, it takes continuing education.
-
Taking a closer look at the changes on the PLX hanger.
The 038 code (Fixe's code for SS) is on the back surface instead of the front.
You can still see the code by looking at the hanger from the side when it is installed.
The rating increased from 30KN to 40 KN.
They added an up arrow above the bolt hole.
They increased the height but decreased the diameter of the three little bumps that stick up on the back side around the bolt hole - designed to keep the hanger from spinning. They are taller and slightly smaller.
The letters PLX replace the previous INOX designation.
I got some of the long (12mm x 3"/ 75mm) Triplex bolts with my order - they are hefty hefty hefty and beautifully simplistic.
They were also a great deal!
-
Tom had a suggestion of relocation of Ordeal's anchor to a better position.
-
Tom had a suggestion of relocation of Ordeal's anchor to a better position.
A better position meaning what?
That anchor has already been replaced.
-
I just received some Fixe bolts and hangers and was wondering about the 40 kN marking on it since previous Fixe hangers I have purchased were marked 30 kN. PLX is not a new "brand", but is rather a different type of stainless steel compared to the 304 and other specifications they used before. I believe the PLX is either a duplex or super duplex stainless steel. This is exciting because I have seen plenty of equipment that our company makes that are 304 and 316L stainless steel that has cracks and heavy corrosion after being in the field for only a few years (we make equipment used in oilfields where stress corrosion is a big issue). The Fixe bolts are still either 304 or 316L, but I suspect the current good deals at Fixe are to purge current inventory so that PLX bolts can be be brought into stock (at least I hope this is the case).
Make sure you pay attention to the recommended hole depth for the Triplex bolts. If you are hand drilling, this will not be a problem, but if you are using them in locations where a power drill can be used, it is easy to drill too deep unless you use a depth gauge. If the hole is too deep, you cannot easy remove the bolt in case you want to remove it (these bolts are designed to be removable for replacement or inspection).
-
I just received some Fixe bolts and hangers and was wondering about the 40 kN marking on it since previous Fixe hangers I have purchased were marked 30 kN. PLX is not a new "brand", but is rather a different type of stainless steel compared to the 304 and other specifications they used before. I believe the PLX is either a duplex or super duplex stainless steel. This is exciting because I have seen plenty of equipment that our company makes that are 304 and 316L stainless steel that has cracks and heavy corrosion after being in the field for only a few years (we make equipment used in oilfields where stress corrosion is a big issue). The Fixe bolts are still either 304 or 316L, but I suspect the current good deals at Fixe are to purge current inventory so that PLX bolts can be be brought into stock (at least I hope this is the case).
Make sure you pay attention to the recommended hole depth for the Triplex bolts. If you are hand drilling, this will not be a problem, but if you are using them in locations where a power drill can be used, it is easy to drill too deep unless you use a depth gauge. If the hole is too deep, you cannot easy remove the bolt in case you want to remove it (these bolts are designed to be removable for replacement or inspection).
Geez - pardon my French - semantics - you may be as persnickety as Brad! :lol: :puke:
I was trying to use a word that clink could understand :lol:
I changed it to composition and yes the bolts are still 304 stainless (according to the Fixe Hardware website) but there is nothing stamped on the bolts to designate that. They do have a marine grade wedge bolt (12x90mm) that is 316 but it's really pricey ($12.95). I have to wonder if the new PLX bolts will have an identifier.
Thanks for the rec on the triplex depth. An overdrilled hole means you could tap the bolt too far in (when disengaging for removal) to get a hold on it and pull it out after the sleeve is extracted.
-
...you may be as persnickety as Brad! :lol: :puke:
Only if by "persnickety" you mean intelligent and detail oriented.
-
JC, sorry to be as detail-oriented as Brad, but the bichromate steel is their less corrosion resistant (and less expensive) model that is designed for indoors and very dry locations compared to the PLX steel.
After seeing how quickly and cleanly four point SDS drills go into the rock compared to the standard two point SDS drills, I have been looking for the four point SDS drills. Hilti sells an eight package of these drills, which I picked up at a local Hilti store, #2025905 for 3/8" x 4" (drilling depth) drills. I look forward to trying them out. Hilti did not stock the metric SDS drills at my local Hilti store, but you can order them on-line and have them delivered to the store for pick-up.
-
JC, sorry to be as detail-oriented as Brad, but the bichromate steel is their less corrosion resistant (and less expensive) model that is designed for indoors and very dry locations compared to the PLX steel.
Yes, I made a mistake. The catalog describes the bichromate version right after the PLX making it confusing for uneducated white trash idiots like me.
I was going to go rebolt today but I am going to stay home and eat worms instead.
-
After seeing how quickly and cleanly four point SDS drills go into the rock compared to the standard two point SDS drills, I have been looking for the four point SDS drills. Hilti sells an eight package of these drills, which I picked up at a local Hilti store, #2025905 for 3/8" x 4" (drilling depth) drills. I look forward to trying them out. Hilti did not stock the metric SDS drills at my local Hilti store, but you can order them on-line and have them delivered to the store for pick-up.
I posted this on the Quest for Mud thread back in the summer. This bit cost me more than double what a regular bit does but I really like it. I use it in my Merrick holder and several people that tried it said they wanted to steal it.
I love the Hilti stuff too - I have one of their regular bits that drills real nice.
Oh...and speaking of fatheads (should I cross post on that other thread?)..check out this new drill bit I tried yesterday.
It drills real nice. The Powers Fat Head design.
Just for fun I switched to my other drill after getting the hole started with this one and it immediately started binding.
Switched back and no more binding. One hole is not enough data but I'll speculate this sucker is going to help me place a lot of bolts faster and easier.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fHWSlkK8H3RQpjJ-7hhttOsDx3H1arUk_FuW7OTwOjbUUyXp9C5O8jJatKmo6c9pSEBd64VW85oPQeczMoW-5G5XK5htJEC_GzcCFjxbM7TKaud6nZLqpaFuw-oyoFhfPx5DAR9hhuICPllaRrxfTX=w402-h474-no?authuser=0)
-
JC, sorry to be as detail-oriented as Brad, but the bichromate steel is their less corrosion resistant (and less expensive) model that is designed for indoors and very dry locations compared to the PLX steel.
After seeing how quickly and cleanly four point SDS drills go into the rock compared to the standard two point SDS drills, I have been looking for the four point SDS drills. Hilti sells an eight package of these drills, which I picked up at a local Hilti store, #2025905 for 3/8" x 4" (drilling depth) drills. I look forward to trying them out. Hilti did not stock the metric SDS drills at my local Hilti store, but you can order them on-line and have them delivered to the store for pick-up.
Mark,
have you tried the 4 point in granite? I've had a poor experience with a single attempt in granite. You may be looking at Pinns exclusively, just sharing my experience.
-
Munge,
I have not tried the 4-point drill yet in granite, but will try it compared to a single point when the snow leaves the higher elevations. (Or, I could go drill holes in the granite boulder outside of Metalmark Gym that has hangers for attaching dog leashes to, heh, heh, heh!) Note that every place I have drilled in granite, I use a cordless power drill so efficiency is not a concern (although I do have an area in mind to bolt in a wilderness area where I will have to use hand drilling next year).
I have not tried the 4-point Hilti drills I bought yet at the Pinnacles, but used a 4-point drill that Gavin let me borrow earlier this year to put in an anchor bolt on one of the climbs on The Old Man. I did this after getting frustrated with how slow and poor the drilling was with my two point drill (Brad was drilling with Gavin's drill right next to me). I also go the 4-point drill because the 4-point drill produces a cleaner hole, i.e., less diameter variations, as well as prevents cracking of the rock around the surface while drilling.
JC, that picture looks exactly like my Hilti drills.
-
I also go the 4-point drill because the 4-point drill produces a cleaner hole, i.e., less diameter variations, as well as prevents cracking of the rock around the surface while drilling.
JC, that picture looks exactly like my Hilti drills.
Yep, the specs are probably very similar.
I agree that the 4 point is easier to get a clean hole started without cratering and there seems to be less binding.
The trick for me with either style bit to avoid cratering is to go easy at the start and continue easy until you get some depth.
I'm not sure the 4 point is any faster but I think it is more efficient.
I have been trying to let the tools do the work instead of fighting it all the time.
-
...making it confusing for uneducated white trash idiots like me.
...I have been trying to let the tools do the work instead of fighting it all the time.
Inconsistent statements (and the first one is just ridiculous). :P
-
"uneducated white trash like me" - I doubt that!
-
I have been trying to let the tools do the work instead of fighting it all the time.
No way! Fighting it is waaay more entertaining! It's craaatering! It's binding!!!! ArGHHH! @#%$!!! Shorty? Shorty?
-
I thought of a descriptive insult for JC today. Instead of annoyingly posting it, I called him at home to deliver it personally.
I have no climbing related content to deliver, other than JC has directed me to think of something in the sun to climb on Sunday.
-
that last hole was horrible.
-
I replaced a few bolts over the weekend.
Saturday Kat and I went to Casino Rock and I replaced the old single bolt anchor on the 4th Class Backside Route.
Someone had added a wedge bolt a couple feet away from the old bolt. This wedge bolt looks like a Powers brand Power wedge and is probably between 2 and 2 1/2 inches long with a Petzl hanger. I am speculating as to the brand and length based on the letter B stamped into the end of the stud.
I replaced the old, loose 3/8 x 2" Star Dryvin. The Star Dryvin was installed with the sleeve underneath the hanger and the nail was sticking up between a 1/4 and a 1/2 inch. It pulled easily and I drilled out and reused the hole.
Yesterday I went out with Brad to a recently discovered old route - Tutor Rock/Private Lessons
I replaced the anchor which consisted of a buttonhead (1/4 x 1 1/2”) and a 1/4 x 2” stud - both were compression bolts on Leeper hangers.
I was able to drill out the old holes for the Replacement bolts. Just a bit of work and BOOM! - yer dun. :thumbup:
-
I was on the west side Friday to do a little rebolting and climbing.
I replaced a second anchor bolt on Passion Play.
There is still one old star dryvin with a good SMC hanger above the replacement anchor.
There is also an added wedge bolt (unreported) to the left of the two replacements I did.
The unreported/added bolt is a Fixe wedge with Stainless hanger but there is no way to tell whether it is a single or double wedge or what the length is. I torqued it to 25 foot pounds but could not in good conscience leave that bolt as one of the main anchor bolts.
The anchor originally consisted of three star dryvins with good SMC hangers. Two of those three have now been replaced.
I went to The Shepherd next at Max's suggestion (a while back).
There is also a new plated rawl style bolt on top of the Shepherd with a link on it. The bolt looks like a much better anchor than the old one. However, the link on this new bolt and the link on the old bolt does not facilitate a rappel, as both links are laying flat, not perpendicular.
The added bolt is a non stainless/carbon steel sleeve bolt and Fixe hanger. The bolt is a 5 piece and it looks like the old style from Powers (3 raised ridges in a spoke-like pattern on the bolt head). It is 3 inches long (D code on the bolt head).
I didn't check the torque but it is nice and tight, as is the original anchor bolt. The original anchor bolt is a long 5 piece carbon steel sleeve bolt. The hanger on that one is a Metolius (stainless) so there is some light rust on the washer from the mixed metals. Both bolts are oriented to belay the Regular Route. There were single screwlinks on both bolts and since this formation is designated as a walkoff, I removed those links and will re-use them elsewhere.
I (and others) would greatly appreciate it if the person or persons adding anchor bolts to climbs on the west side would bring it up for discussion on this forum before making any changes. I know of a couple other spots where anchor bolts have been added. Old Original has a belay bolt at the start of pitch one and a belay bolt was also added to Came in Second at The Game Show area. Both of these bolts and their hangers are carbon steel.
-
I forgot to mention that when I was working on Passion Play I noticed that the nuts and washers have been removed from the Highline anchor on Big Bad West.
-
Kat and I went to the Toes yesterday.
We climbed the South Toe and then I replaced the lead bolt and the anchor.
Someone added an anchor bolt. As far as I could tell, it is a stainless sleeve bolt with a no name brand stainless hanger. It had a 3/8 screw link and a carbon steel rap ring. I loosened it and rotated the hanger to equalize with my ASCA replacement bolt and tightened it back down. It was flush and tight, so I decided it should be okay with my replacement bolt. If anyone knows anything about it, it would be nice to know the history. I added a screwlink and single link of chain to my bolt.
After I replaced the anchor I decided to replace the lead bolt. The lead bolt is three quarters of the way up the route, not about halfway up as stated in the guidebook. The hanger was loose. The bolt was a short 3/8 star dryvin with the sleeves incorrectly installed under the Leeper hanger.
The nail came out with almost no effort after getting it started with the tuning fork.
The sleeves and lead sleeve slipped out easily, all in one piece.
I plan to go back and rebolt the anchor on the North Toe on our next trip out.
I could only see one old bolt on the North summit with a piece of tied cord and an old oval biner.
The hanger looks like a Leeper.
-
Here are some updates on the South Toe and new info on the North Toe
Kat and I went to the Toes yesterday.
We climbed the South Toe and then I replaced the lead bolt and the anchor.
Here is the old anchor. Notice the homemade hanger and huge space under the allen drop-in bolt.
I removed the old single anchor allen bolt and torqued the lead bolt and the anchor replacement.
Someone added an anchor bolt. As far as I could tell, it is a stainless sleeve bolt with a no name brand stainless hanger. It had a 3/8 screw link and a carbon steel rap ring. I loosened it and rotated the hanger to equalize with my ASCA replacement bolt and tightened it back down. It was flush and tight, so I decided it should be okay with my replacement bolt. If anyone knows anything about it, it would be nice to know the history. I added a screwlink and single link of chain to my bolt.
I didn't have my reading glasses last weekend but I made sure I had them yesterday. The bolt is a 3/8 x 2 1/4 Powers SS sleeve bolt with a Pagan Gear 24kN hanger. I torqued the bolt to spec. It tightened up nicely.
After I replaced the anchor I decided to replace the lead bolt.
The lead bolt is a comfort when you finally get to it when leading the South Toe.
It is better not to think about what will happen to you if you fall leading the North Toe with this same bolt clipped but it is all you've got.
I plan to go back and rebolt the anchor on the North Toe on our next trip out.
I could only see one old bolt on the North summit with a piece of tied cord and an old oval biner.
The hanger looks like a Leeper.
The North Toe had a single anchor bolt. It was a 2 1/2 inch star dryvin with a Leeper hanger. I pulled that bolt and drilled out the hole for the replacement bolt. I placed another bolt about a foot away and added screwlinks and a link of chain to each. The rappel is set up to go off the back side.
Both of The Toes now have two bolt anchors (upgraded from single bolt anchors) and both are equipped for rappel.
The North Toe rappel has some PO over to the left. It's easily avoided by snaking the rope down.
Both routes and both rappels can be done with a 30 meter rope - and they are both fun albeit a bit runout.
-
clink told me he climbed Swallow Crack on Sunday and one of the fixed pins was missing - I believe he said it was the upper one. He also mentioned that Caleb placed a cam in the rusty hole. Care to confirm and share clink?
-
clink told me he climbed Swallow Crack on Sunday and one of the fixed pins was missing - I believe he said it was the upper one. He also mentioned that Caleb placed a cam in the rusty hole. Care to confirm and share clink?
Well...evidently clink has nothing to say or just missed this post.
I got my copy of the Richards guide yesterday and am getting a big kick out of reading what he has to say. The dude has a good sense of humor and injects it pretty frequently. I also enjoyed reading my Roper guide.
From Richards;
A dead giveaway for the pinnacles novice is to be caught clinking along the trail swathed in several ropes and bandoleers of hanging steel. Clean climbing never found a controversy here; the breccia rock is soft by nature, the cracks are even softer and with rare exceptions pitons are useless. Less than 10 percent of the current climbs require pitons (most of this number are Discovery Wall aid climbs) and perhaps future years will see the complete elimination of pins.
Bolts are the Pinnacles protection and by their permanent nature, contribute to the climbing delight.
-
I can't believe clink has never responded to my last post. :idea: :confused: :nono:
I discovered some other very interesting things while reading the Richards guide.
In other news, last week I had another one of my Petzl Rocpecs fail. The spring broke.
I was pretty surprised it happened, since I had only been using that holder for about a year.
Luckily Petzl is standing behind their product and is sending me a replacement.
I started carrying an extra holder after the first one fell apart when I was rebolting The Proctor.
That is one nice thing about the Rocpec - it is so light you don't even know the extra one is in the bag.
-
Yep, missed your posts.
Upper pin on Swallow is gone. Hope whoever has it breaks both legs and a few ribs.
I still on occasion will go clinking down the trail, although without the distinct sound that the hexes make. I still hunt for the rare exception at Pinns for pins.
Richards guide is great. Our guide that we learned to climb with. Same could be said of Ropers green guides for Yosemite and the High Sierra.
Why hasn't my rocpec broken? Don't gamble on the Proctor.
-
Yep, missed your posts.
Upper pin on Swallow is gone. Hope whoever has it breaks both legs and a few ribs.
Time for a bolt or does the pin scar work for a cam? Maybe an offset alien?
I still on occasion will go clinking down the trail, although without the distinct sound that the hexes make. I still hunt for the rare exception at Pinns for pins.
You can borrow my hexes :smilewinkgrin: :lol:
Richards guide is great. Our guide that we learned to climb with. Same could be said of Ropers green guides for Yosemite and the High Sierra.
Yes. I didn't want to spend the money on it at first but the copy I got is pristine and the read was a real treat.
Why hasn't my rocpec broken? Don't gamble on the Proctor.
jinx :yikes: :lol:
-
There are multiple placements for gear near the old missing pin. I will replace the pin because it is fucking history and a good placement. Unless whoever took the original is reading this and puts it back. If a pin is cracked or rusted out, it is fine to replace it. At Pinnacles pins are part of the route history and should remain, whether they are driven or bolted on. RK hangers as well.
-
I agree that pins are history at the Pins but some people do not. I think they figure if they can place their own protection that is a better option. For those of us who started climbing with pins they seem bomber, some those have have never used pins think they are dangerous. I have no idea who or why it is gone but someone may have thought they were doing a good thing. I see no issues with putting it back. Perhaps they will take the hint.
-
There are multiple placements for gear near the old missing pin. I will replace the pin because it is fucking history and a good placement. Unless whoever took the original is reading this and puts it back. If a pin is cracked or rusted out, it is fine to replace it. At Pinnacles pins are part of the route history and should remain, whether they are driven or bolted on. RK hangers as well.
Good to know about the gear placements - because of that I wouldn't replace the pin and besides, the real chunk of history is gone once the old piece is removed.
I know we have all had a discussion about pin replacement before.
The main problem with that is the high cost and having to supply them personally - then the possibility that someone will cause them to get loose or find one loose and remove it. One way to really torque on stuff is to lower the leader off a climb. That tends to put a lot of weird forces on bolts and pins when the rope comes tight - especially if the line isn't straight up.
Old hangers are cool too but unfortunately that old hardware eventually will get replaced.
-
Old hangers are cool too but unfortunately that old hardware eventually will get replaced.
I agree that this is the case with the generic multitude of hardware, of the unique and personal(stamped) need to stay and get a bolt in good rock near to the original bolt. Please :)
-
I thought the discussion was about a piton. Where have hangers with personalized markings been removed?
Also, could it be possible that the fixed pin had become loose from recent rain, high route traffic, etc? Maybe someone climbing the route removed it without any tools because it was loose. Kind of like the missing hanger on Erectile Dysfunction?
-
Also, could it be possible that the fixed pin had become loose from recent rain, high route traffic, etc?
Yes, most probable. It was driven straight down behind a flake which may have moved. I will let you know if the replacement rings, but the placement was a beauty that would hold if hand placed IMO.
-
Could it be used as a directional for TR? It's been about 8 years since i' ve climbed that route. Can't remember.
Replace it and report back.
-
I thought the discussion was about a piton. Where have hangers with personalized markings been removed?
Also, could it be possible that the fixed pin had become loose from recent rain, high route traffic, etc? Maybe someone climbing the route removed it without any tools because it was loose. Kind of like the missing hanger on Erectile Dysfunction?
It was. I just had to bring up the discussion of replacing worn pins again and clink's mind wanders.
There are only a couple cases I can think of where people got emotional about removing old hardware.
The bad thing about RK's hangers is even though they are really cool and historic, they are the lever out type usually with smallish holes and compared with the modern hangers they are thin and potentially weak.
I wouldn't replace a bolt with out replacing the hanger and I don't know anyone else that has done that either.
The Merry Cranksters left the old bolts in cobbles on Fifty Meter Must and I assume placed the new bolts close to them in matrix. Trying to remove bolts from cobbles (if they are fairly small) could definitely alter the route.
I still haven't climbed that route to see exactly what they did.
I totally understand the historic context and the sentimentality and I always try to keep that in mind if I am working to restore an old route. No one wants to see the history disappear but to me the real legacy is the route itself because it will last longer than the hardware (well...maybe...it is after all Mud and Crud).
I agree with your assessment of the piton disappearance Nelkins. Very likely that is what happened.
-
I totally understand the historic context and the sentimentality and I always try to keep that in mind if I am working to restore an old route.
That's a hard balancing act, and you do it well (leaning as you do a bit in favor of safety over history). I think the vast majority of climbers love the history, but if they had to choose safety or history, they'd choose just like you do.
Obviously it's possible to preserve both too.
-
The 4th bolt on Ali Baba was reported as rusty and loose on 5-8-17.
Part of what the person that reported it stated:
I contemplated taking it off or hand-tightening and hand-tightening seemed better (followed by immediate email to someone who can fix it). So I HAND TIGHTENED it.
I appreciate the report and the fact that the nut was hand tightened rather than removed.
I added a suggestion to the Rebolting Master List for people that find loose hardware.
-
Clink,
Regarding the missing Piton, nope not me. I'd suspect that guy with the shaved head, always lowers a rope from the top and climbs back up....very suspicious.
Please replace and replace the one on Jorgies extension....
:thumbup:
-
rusty and loose
Yosomighty did climb it a few weeks ago.
-
I was out yesterday working on the west side.
I replaced the old 1st bolt on Passion Play. The bolt was a split shaft. It was crooked, rusty and in bad rock - the hollowness of the rock where it was placed was disturbing. The puller tool Bruce gave me removed the bolt with appalling ease.
I met a fun couple at the crag - Neil and Tami(sp?).
Tami got the 2nd ascent on See Ya Crater Alligator and also was the first to clip the replaced bolt on Passion Play.
I also managed to get up to Rumbling Rampart and replaced the anchor. One of the bolts was some kind of quarter inch stud and the other was a wedge bolt that pulled out fairly easy with the puller tool. I was surprised and pleased that I could pull out a wedge bolt with the puller tool. I'll have to go back and work on the lead bolts.
-
...Tami got the 2nd ascent on See Ya Crater Alligator and also was the first to clip the replaced bolt on Passion Play.
NOOOoooo, I wanted that second ascent ;D ;)
-
I replaced the lead bolts on Rumbling Rampart yesterday (5,3,2,1). Temperatures were very pleasant in the sun. The pulling tool that Bruce gave me worked like a charm on bolts 5 and 1. The other 2 needed coaxing by other means since the shafts were five sixteenths. Bolt 2 took only a tiny bump with the crowbar and then slid out with my fingers :yikes:
It was very gratifying to get all these done and be able to reuse all the old holes. The bolt Mark replaced years ago still looks good (carbon steel) and it was tight (I checked the torque). The climb is in fine shape now from top to bottom :thumbup: :biggrin:
-
in fine shape now from top to bottom
Thanks again JC for your labor!!!
-
The climb is in fine shape now from top to bottom :thumbup: :biggrin:
Yeah. Except for the rock :D
Damn, I can't believe I said that - I'm supposed to be a Pinnacles fanatic.
-
Yeah. Except for the rock :D
Damn, I can't believe I said that - I'm supposed to be a Pinnacles fanatic.
All the more reason to replace the bolts and get another 5.6 in shape for aspiring leaders.
Pot Kettle Mr. Are You Inexperienced
Speaking of...I hiked past Agent Orange yesterday...
-
Here is my pulling tool - thanks Bruce!, the giant Kentucky socket set I use to turn it, one of those weird Eye-tallion hangers w camo paint and my custom three eights slotted chisel slash tuning fork. Those are the 4 bolts I took off Rumbling Rampart. The chisel is heavy but it is the bomb for getting something started when the pulling tool won't work. I need to make another one with the next size smaller chisel and a quarter inch channel to replace my nearly worn out quarter inch tuning fork. Tool steel holds up much better and there is less flex than the slotted Lost Arrow pitons used for the old tuning forks. Out with the old...in with the new...
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4562/38219098452_54cf273fee_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21ehSrj)
-
John,
nice work! We put a washer between the rock and the end of the tool to help get a good, straight pull and also to help keep from scarring the rock and bunging up the end of the tool. BTW, when the end of the tool gets a bit bunged up, you can use a hacksaw to cut it off. Just be careful to make the end as parallel(square?) as possible so you get a good straight(as possible) pull.
BTW, the two wedge bolts on the left in your photo are pretty short. With the longer ones were were dealing with on Discovery Wall last season it was much easier to replace them after spinning them with a spinning tool.
-
Clint and I finished up the rebolting on Shake and Bake. All protection bolts from bottom to top are stainless steel as are most of the bolts at the belays(there's one plated 5-piece at the 2nd belay). Also, you can now actually see the bolts on the first pitch. No guess work required.
-
Clint and I finished up the rebolting on Shake and Bake. All protection bolts from bottom to top are stainless steel as are most of the bolts at the belays(there's one plated 5-piece at the 2nd belay). Also, you can now actually see the bolts on the first pitch. No guess work required.
Wow! Thanks for the work (including J.C. in this thanks too - all three of you do so much re-bolting).
-
Wow! Thanks for the work (including J.C. in this thanks too - all three of you do so much re-bolting).
I do it because I love Pinnies but I also appreciate the occasional atta boy.
Bruce and Clint are hard core machines...often hanging for hours with headlamps in the dark to finish what they started.
My hat is off to ya fellas :thumbup: :thumbup: :smilewinkgrin: :yesnod:
-
Bruce and Clint are hard core machines...
Pot/kettle.
-
Bruce and Clint are hard core machines...
They are from The Peninsula.
-
I have been meaning to do this for a while. Here is a list of the rebolting Clint and I did last season. We had some new tools to try out(see photos up thread) so we concentrated on wedge bolts in the Discovery Wall/Tourist Trap/Back Door areas. Thanks to Dan Merrick and John Cook for helping out.
Also, I tagged each bolt and send almost all of them to Professor Paul Heyliger, an engineering professor at Colorado State University, for testing. Most of the bolts were about 30 years old and all of them tested to the same specifications as a new wedge bolt for shear strength. Of course that doesn't take into account the actual placement in the rock, but it seems to indicate that the bolts themselves don't seem to be going bad over time.
Discovery Wall
-Mammary Pump
-replaced bolts #2 and #3
-Entrance
-replaced 2nd bolt
-Stupendous Man
replaced bolts #3 and #4
replaced 1 anchor bolt
replaced hanger on other anchor bolt
replaced chains with 7-link 3/8" chain and SS quick links
-Cleft
replaced hanger on bolt #2
replaced bolt #1
-Pistol Whipped
replaced all three protection bolts
-Verdict
replaced right anchor bolt
replaced hangers on center and left anchor bolts
replaced quick links with two SS quick links
replaced 3/8" chain with new 3/8" 5-link chain
replaced hanger on 6th bolt
-Broken Arrow
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced bolts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5
-Broken Arrow Direct
replaced hanger on protection bolt
Ordeal
-replaced hanger on anchor bolt
-Discovery Wall Rappel
replaced hangers on both anchor bolts
replaced anchor with two SS quick links and 3/8" 5-link chain
-Swallow Crack
replaced one of the anchor bolts
-Bye Bye Fly By
replaced hanger on protection bolt
(Previously rebolted)
-Top anchor Trauma/Plague
replaced both anchor bolts
-Trauma
replaced protection bolt
-Plague
replaced hangers on three protection bolts
(Previously rebolted)
-Wet Kiss
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with 2 SS quick links and rappel rings
replaced middle bolt anchor chain with 2 SS quick links and 5/16" chain
replaced #1, #4, #5 protection bolts
replaced hanger on #2 protection bolt
-Portent right finish
replaced lone anchor/directional bolt
-Cosmos
replaced both anchor bolts
put SS links with Mussy hooks
replaced hanger on #1 protection bolt
replaced bolts #5, #7 and #8
replaced hanger on bolt #6
Tourist Trap
-Thrill Hammer
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with SS quick links
replaced #2, #4, #5, #6 protecton bolts
-Rat Race
replaced quick links at anchor with SS quick links
Backdoor/Tiburcio's
-Auto Cream
replaced both anchor bolts
-Limp at Last
replaced one anchor bolt
-Tiburcios X
replaced one anchor bolt
added Fixe double ring hangers to two anchor bolts
-Camel
replaced hanger on 3rd bolt of Ali Baba w/SS hanger
-
Did you put the 3rd (hard to clip) bolt on Mammary back in the original spot or move it over a bit? I think the original holds for clipping hold broke. Not complaining as I wasn't about to get involved in 3/8" bold removal. Just asking.
-
Did you put the 3rd (hard to clip) bolt on Mammary back in the original spot or move it over a bit? I think the original holds for clipping hold broke. Not complaining as I wasn't about to get involved in 3/8" bold removal. Just asking.
I think I can answer this.
The convention when replacing old bolts is to place the new bolt in the old hole if possible. The only reason this might change would be finding a bolt in totally unsuitable (bad) rock. In those fairly rare instances the rebolter has to make a careful and thoughtful decision to place the new bolt in good rock as close as possible to the original location.
-
For cross reference...
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2526.0
-
Did you put the 3rd (hard to clip) bolt on Mammary back in the original spot or move it over a bit? I think the original holds for clipping hold broke. Not complaining as I wasn't about to get involved in 3/8" bold removal. Just asking.
Clint and I discussed this at length. Between the two of us we have almost 100 years of experience in climbing and have seen so many different situations that we tend to treat things like this on a case by case basis.
A lot of times when a key hold breaks the rating just reflects doing the route without the hold. In this case, there was an alternative way to make that move. But, as Clint pointed out, he knows people who have led the route in the original way without the hold. Sure, we both know Chris B and could have called him, but the route still goes in the original way even with the broken hold.
In the end the decision was pretty clear. We were just deepening the existing hole so if there ever is some sort of consensus that the bolt really should be moved, the original hole could easily be patched and a new hole drilled.
Which brings us to the whole issue of consensus. As we have seen, and on this forum as well, with the issue of replacing 'historic' hardware with new hardware, even with something that seems pretty cut and dried, there are still climbers who don't want new bolts and relish the adventure of clipping suspect hardware.
So, in summary, while there are some pretty reasonable guidelines to work with there are no obvious or widely accepted answers. Every situation needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
-
Thanks for replacing! With bolt 2 modernized, it's reasonably safe to skip 3.
-
Thanks for replacing! With bolt 2 modernized, it's reasonably safe to skip 3.
I should add that the original bolt #2 was a bit suspect. It was drilled at a very pronounced upward angle into the rock. I drilled a new hole that was more perpendicular to the rock and put the new bolt there. It is about 2 inches lower than the original bolt. Again, these things are decided on a case by case basis.
-
Thanks Bruce, Clint, John, and Dan for all your hard work!
-
Someone asked me what bolts Clint and I replace on Shake and Bake last week. Here goes:
P1: replaced all three protection bolts plus one bolt at the belay. We added SS quick links and rings to the anchors.
P2: replaced the first protection bolt
P3: replaced the third protection bolt. The first and second protection bolt on this pitch had been replaced in 2009, but the old bolts had not been removed. We removed the two old bolts.
-
.... It is about 2 inches lower than the original bolt....
Bruce another hole only 2 inches below the original, seems to me, to create a weakness in the substrate. With sufficient force on a fall, 2 inches of material (Pinnacles material, specifically), could be an issue. With a hole full of injected epoxy and rock dust, I think it wouldn't matter as much though.
Can I recommend that all other future holes be placed further than 2 inches from the original hole at Pinnacles?
With second guessing apologies from the armchair,
Rob
-
I’d have given Clint $10 to have move that bolt on mammary pump to better rock! ;)
Or. Gift card to mc Donald’s of an undisclosed sum.
Thank for finishing up the replacements on shake n bake. Long over due.
Yeah it sucked to NOT get the 1st bolt on the 2ns pitch. When leading one should go to that bolt, clip and down climb the belay....
-
I should add that the original bolt #2 was a bit suspect. It was drilled at a very pronounced upward angle into the rock. I drilled a new hole that was more perpendicular to the rock and put the new bolt there. It is about 2 inches lower than the original bolt.
From a geological/structural perspective, if the angle of the surface and the corresponding angle of the substrate changes drastically - this may indicate a cleavage plane or bedding plane difference which needs to be factored in. If the old and new holes are in the same plane, the manufacturer recommends a minimum of one bolt length separation - which you and Bruce already know.
I wouldn't normally use the term bedding plane with volcanic rock but there are so many deposits that have an ash matrix, we can use it with Pinns rock.
-
2 inches lower but might be a few inches to a side.?
If the hole is filled with a structurally rated bonding epoxy the substrate may be stronger than it was before.
Thanks Bruce and Clint for all that work.
-
Bruce another hole only 2 inches below the original, seems to me, to create a weakness in the substrate. With sufficient force on a fall, 2 inches of material (Pinnacles material, specifically), could be an issue. With a hole full of injected epoxy and rock dust, I think it wouldn't matter as much though.
Can I recommend that all other future holes be placed further than 2 inches from the original hole at Pinnacles?
With second guessing apologies from the armchair,
Rob
Munge,
I am just spitballing when I say 2". I moved it to a location which should be fine.
-
From a geological/structural perspective, if the angle of the surface and the corresponding angle of the substrate changes drastically - this may indicate a cleavage plane or bedding plane difference which needs to be factored in. If the old and new holes are in the same plane, the manufacturer recommends a minimum of one bolt length separation - which you and Bruce already know.
John,
from the Powers literature I have read, the minimum of one bolt length separation only refers to the spacing of "active" bolts meaning bolts in holes. If you have removed a bolt and are moving it's location I don't know of any published studies of the optimum spacing in that situation.
-
I have been meaning to do this for a while. Here is a list of the rebolting Clint and I did last season. We had some new tools to try out(see photos up thread) so we concentrated on wedge bolts in the Discovery Wall/Tourist Trap/Back Door areas. Thanks to Dan Merrick and John Cook for helping out.
Also, I tagged each bolt and send almost all of them to Professor Paul Heyliger, an engineering professor at Colorado State University, for testing. Most of the bolts were about 30 years old and all of them tested to the same specifications as a new wedge bolt for shear strength. Of course that doesn't take into account the actual placement in the rock, but it seems to indicate that the bolts themselves don't seem to be going bad over time.
Discovery Wall
-Mammary Pump
-replaced bolts #2 and #3
-Entrance
-replaced 2nd bolt
-Stupendous Man
replaced bolts #3 and #4
replaced 1 anchor bolt
replaced hanger on other anchor bolt
replaced chains with 7-link 3/8" chain and SS quick links
-Cleft
replaced hanger on bolt #2
replaced bolt #1
-Pistol Whipped
replaced all three protection bolts
-Verdict
replaced right anchor bolt
replaced hangers on center and left anchor bolts
replaced quick links with two SS quick links
replaced 3/8" chain with new 3/8" 5-link chain
replaced hanger on 6th bolt
-Broken Arrow
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced bolts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5
-Broken Arrow Direct
replaced hanger on protection bolt
Ordeal
-replaced hanger on anchor bolt
-Discovery Wall Rappel
replaced hangers on both anchor bolts
replaced anchor with two SS quick links and 3/8" 5-link chain
-Swallow Crack
replaced one of the anchor bolts
-Bye Bye Fly By
replaced hanger on protection bolt
(Previously rebolted)
-Top anchor Trauma/Plague
replaced both anchor bolts
-Trauma
replaced protection bolt
-Plague
replaced hangers on three protection bolts
(Previously rebolted)
-Wet Kiss
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with 2 SS quick links and rappel rings
replaced middle bolt anchor chain with 2 SS quick links and 5/16" chain
replaced #1, #4, #5 protection bolts
replaced hanger on #2 protection bolt
-Portent right finish
replaced lone anchor/directional bolt
-Cosmos
replaced both anchor bolts
put SS links with Mussy hooks
replaced hanger on #1 protection bolt
replaced bolts #5, #7 and #8
replaced hanger on bolt #6
Tourist Trap
-Thrill Hammer
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with SS quick links
replaced #2, #4, #5, #6 protecton bolts
-Rat Race
replaced quick links at anchor with SS quick links
Backdoor/Tiburcio's
-Auto Cream
replaced both anchor bolts
-Limp at Last
replaced one anchor bolt
-Tiburcios X
replaced one anchor bolt
added Fixe double ring hangers to two anchor bolts
-Camel
replaced hanger on 3rd bolt of Ali Baba w/SS hanger
This information has been incorporated into the Rebolting Master List
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2402.0
-
Someone asked me what bolts Clint and I replace on Shake and Bake last week. Here goes:
P1: replaced all three protection bolts plus one bolt at the belay. We added SS quick links and rings to the anchors.
P2: replaced the first protection bolt
P3: replaced the third protection bolt. The first and second protection bolt on this pitch had been replaced in 2009, but the old bolts had not been removed. We removed the two old bolts.
This information has been incorporated into the Rebolting Master List
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2402.0
-
On December 30, 2017 I pulled all three lead protection bolts on "Bullseye" (5.5) and replaced them in the same holes with bomber 1/2" x 3" Powers stainless steel five-piece bolts and Fixe stainless steel 12 mm hangers. The original 3/8" x 2-1/2" carbon steel sleeve hangers were placed a the minimum 1-1/4" depth and the holes were fairly cratered, as evidenced by the shape of the caulking that came out attached to the bolts. The original bolts had SMC stainless steel thick hangers.
I tried to pull out the first lead protection bolt on the first pitch of "Derringer", which was the only original bolt that has not been replaced, but the 3/8" threaded stud split-shaft bolt broke in the hole. This bolt had a golden-colored SMC hanger (the type that can develop cracks). I suspect that the stud was broken inside of the rock because it pulled out fairly easy from the break location in the rock. This bolt was replaced by a new 3/8" x 2-3/4" Fixe single-wedge, stainless steel bolt and a Fixe 3/8" stainless steel hanger in a new hole drilled about 5" to the left and at the same elevation. I did not have hole patching material, but next time I am climbing this route, which I do several times during the year, I will patch the hole. All other lead and belay bolts on this climb have been previously replaced.
-
I tried to pull out the first lead protection bolt on the first pitch of "Derringer", which was the only original bolt that has not been replaced, but the 3/8" threaded stud split-shaft bolt broke in the hole. This bolt was replaced by a new 3/8" x 2-3/4" Fixe single-wedge, stainless steel bolt and a Fixe 3/8" stainless steel hanger in a new hole drilled about 5" to the left and at the same elevation. I did not have hole patching material, but next time I am climbing this route, which I do several times during the year, I will patch the hole. All other lead and belay bolts on this climb have been previously replaced.
Thanks for the work Mark.
I will add this info to the Master List. I need to update a few things I have replaced too.
If you run across any more split shafts - let me know. The puller tool Bruce gave me will pull them right out very cleanly and the hole can be reused. I think the Access Fund is selling the tools for around $30 - I can check with Bruce or put you in touch with him if you need supplies.
-
Last weekend I replaced a couple anchor bolts and inspected both midway stations on 1st Sister.
I made the following updates to the Master List today.
34 – Heffalump – route and anchor – J Cook 12-11-17
221 – Backside Route Third Class – one of two anchor bolts replaced – J Cook, J De La Peña, 7-16-15 – 2nd anchor bolt replaced – J Cook, 12-29-17
225 – First Sister West Face Center Route - #1 hanger, #2 bolt/hanger – J Cook, Mar 2014 - convenience bolt at midway anchor – J Cook, 12-29-17
831 – Bullseye – anchor - M Fletcher Mar 1999, 3 lead bolts – M Fletcher 12-30-17
833 – Derringer – route and anchors - M Fletcher, June 1999, p1 1st lead bolt - M Fletcher 12-30-17
-
I almost forgot
547 – H&L – Regular Route – left anchor bolt – J Cook, 12-27-17
-
On January 5th I finally got up to Heavens Gate to look at the lead bolt that was "too far to the left." Several climbers have told me over a period of years that the second-to-last bolt was a really hard clip - seriously too far left of where one actually climbs.
Boy was it. I couldn't even see whatever holds we'd stood on to drill the damn thing! All of the climbing there is now obviously on or slightly right of the arete and the bolt is (was) 30 inches (?) left of it.
I replaced the old bolt with an ASCA 1/2 inch stainless. I was pleased to find that the old bolt was in pretty good shape. But it was so badly out of position that this needed to be done (I think it is accepted that a member of the first ascent party can change positions of bolts on routes they put up).
The new bolt is about four feet right of the old and about eight inches lower. It's around to the right of the arete about 18 inches (the rock on the arete was too styrofoamy to place it there).
I removed the old bolt and carefully patched the hole.
-
After Heaven's Gate I went to The Yaks to check topos and route descriptions. I was quite pleased at how much I got done.
While there I had a very, very serious discussion with a large poison oak mass that was utterly choking the base of Yaks Wall at and left of the route Tato Pani (in size it was generally 20 feet along the wall and up to five feet out from it). My persuasive skills worked. The mass decided to move and is now gone completely from the area (I have a small and amusing patch of poison oak on the inside of my left forearm).
-
I know that patch of PO. You are much braver than I am.
-
You are much braver than I am.
Maybe, maybe regarding poison oak (to which I have developed a fair degree of resistance over the years).
But overall, and considering the routes you've put up at Pinnacles, your statement is laughable ;)
-
On January 5th I finally got up to Heavens Gate to look at the lead bolt that was "too far to the left."
I replaced the old bolt with an ASCA 1/2 inch stainless.
I will add this to the Master List.
And thanks for doing that. I know you had given permission to any one of us that might want to relocate that bolt but ultimately I think it was best that you did it since it is your route. I was not going to do it.
-
Here is the old garbage anchor bolt I replaced on H&L on 12-27-17
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4599/39580458261_ca2097b2c0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23iAcha)
I learned something very interesting yesterday while replacing the lead bolts on H&L. The lower bolt appeared to be a wedge bolt, since I saw no end to the threads. The stud was sticking out about an inch and the threads continued down into the hole. When I tapped the bolt (to tap it in and disengage the cone), it bottomed out in the hole and I assumed the cone did not disengage and the hole had been under drilled. I expected a fight. I decided to try my puller tool. It was pretty tight turning the puller tool but it seemed to be extracting the bolt without an extreme amount of force. I stopped after a series of turns and checked. The bolt was indeed coming up and out. I continued to turn and to my delight - the bolt came out. What happened next surprised me. Most three-eighths split shafts at Pinns are two and a half inches long. The threads are half an inch long and the actual split portion is 2 inches long. The bolt I just pulled out was a split shaft but the threads were an inch and a half long!
Here is a picture of a normal length split shaft (from the midway anchor on 1st Sister Center route) and the extra long split shaft (three and a half inches) I pulled out yesterday.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4641/39551373452_d24f94155a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23g28nW)
-
I added H&L and Heaven's Gate to the Master List.
-
Question
Here in New Mexico’s volcanic rock we sometimes use glue to keep the rock from crumbling around the bolt. In one instance, glue was used in a vertically placed bolt in basalt to increase the pull-out strength, but this bolt actually pulled out! In other areas I have seen a silicone glue used in the hole to keep water out. Is there a rule for when to put glue in a bolt hole? Should we be specific about the types of glue?
—Aaron, Santa Fe, NM
Not to be indelicate, but the situation you detail makes me never want to climb in New Mexico. Glue-in bolts may be the strongest, longest-lasting and most bomber of all bolts, but I’d rather cut myself and free swim off the Great Barrier Reef than clip glue-ins that are someone’s science experiment.
Properly placing glue-ins ranks up there with replacing the brakes on your car—it takes tools and know-how, and it is easy to botch the job.
For a glue-in to be strong, the glue has to stick to the bolt and to the rock. Getting these bonds isn’t as easy as you might think. Hole cleanliness is paramount. Unlike mechanical bolts, where a quick toot on a piece of aquarium tubing suffices to clear the drill dust from the hole, glue-ins require a hole that is absolutely spotless. Think of your colon prepped for a colonoscopy.
To ram home how important the cleaning process is, tests conducted by Bolt Products show that a dirty hole can reduce a glue-in’s holding power by 90 percent.
To answer your question about the glue type, yes, there are specific glues to use with specific bolts. Bolt glues are resins. Some are two parts and you mix them with a special caulking gun. One popular glue is the suppository-like ampule that breaks and mixes in the hole. The manufacturers of this type recommend spinning the bolt in the hole at a minimum of 250 rpms, a task that requires mounting the bolt in the chuck of a power drill and spinning it at full bore. Spinning the bolt mixes the glue with the hardener. Since most bolts won’t fit in a drill (use threaded rod and get a rod-to-SDS chuck adapter from Hilti), climbers simply hand spin these bolts. As you can imagine, it is impossible to hand spin a bolt at 250 rpms—we can bet that 100 percent of bolts placed by hand did not have the glue mixed to specification.
That these bolts are not failing by the droves is testament to the massive overkill built into them by the construction industry.
The bolt failure you had in New Mexico could have been caused by a poor glue bond, but probably the glue gummed up the bolt’s workings and it didn’t tighten.
Putting any type of glue or caulking in a mechanical bolt (Powers five-piece, for example) hole is for this reason a no-no. Logically, gluing a mechanical bolt would seem to fortify it, but any mechanical bolt fits in the hole so snugly that most of the glue will either get pushed to the back of the hole, or forced out of the hole. There will be little, if any, glue on the bolt shaft or along the length of the hole. If you are going to use glue in soft rock, use actual glue-in bolts, such as 1/2- by 6-inch threaded rod. I’ve placed a bushel-full of this type bolt in rock that was no better than soap and 25 years later they are still in use.
You probably noticed that silicone caulking—the stuff you said you saw—is not on the list of approved bolt glues. Silicone caulking is sealant, not glue. Getting silicone caulking in the hole will compromise the bolt’s frictional grip and/or jam up its mechanical workings. Don’t use it!
Silicone caulking (or a rubber washer) might serve to temporarily seal over the hole and bolt, preventing water from getting in, but I think caulking causes more problems than it solves. The caulking hides the bolt, preventing you from visually inspecting it, and the caulking eventually cracks and pulls away from the rock, letting water in and making it harder for the bolt hole to dry.
Everything I have just noted is only an outline of what it takes to install glue-ins. Before you attempt to place a glue-in, read everything on the website bolt-products.com. This site covers bolting gear, design, glues and glue systems and installation tips in great detail. It also gives results for various tests on glue-ins—the data is often eye-opening. Gear Guy has spoken!
This article was published in Rock and Ice issue 205 (October 2012).
:)
-
clink - you set me up but I am not taking the bait :lol:
-
;D oh come on. The descriptions/comparisons were amusing.
-
wow, I clipped that?
-
wow, I clipped that?
...or skipped it. At times you were 2 bolts shy of normal.
-
So I got better?
Sweet
-
I added Tuff Dome Regular Route to the list today.
Squeaked it in before the closures.
-
I spent the day replacing bolts yesterday.
I've been working on the Flumes SE Face for a while now and everything is done except the Roper chimney.
I got Flames Face done yesterday. One of the bolts was weird. It is off to the side, seemingly in no man's land and the hanger is a Leeper - unlike all the others (SMC Death Hangers). The holds out that direction don't look good and neither does the rock. I will have to go back and climb the route before I make a final decision but right now it looks unnecessary and in a bad spot. It will also be hard to get to if it does need to be replaced. The anchor puts you down to the right of all the bolts and there were no sling knobs to use for directionals - I had a heck of a time replacing the 5th bolt (a quarter inch split shaft). Someone had already replaced the last lead bolt with a carbon steel 5 pc and a Fixe hanger - painted white (looks like it was painted after installation). That bolt cannot be seen from below - it's on the bottom of a large scoop. The old bolt was not completely removed and the hole was not patched.
Here is the last lead bolt. You can see the remains of the old bolt at upper right.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4749/26154822968_9d9b089b03_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FRdiDA)
Here are the old bolts I replaced yesterday
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4768/39128856995_3674970ee4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22BFBXr)
Here's the topo for clarification if needed
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4632/39995402872_b8eeba4c23_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23WfTRA)
I'll add this route to the Master List today
-
I still haven't been on that line.
What's the concern that you need to climb the route for? Whether to bother with it? No one will judge if you avoid some and not others. Trust me, you put in a heck of a lot of time already.
When we going climbing?
-
I still haven't been on that line.
What's the concern that you need to climb the route for? Whether to bother with it? No one will judge if you avoid some and not others. Trust me, you put in a heck of a lot of time already.
When we going climbing?
It actually looks like a decent line. I want to climb it, the Direct finish to Drizzly and the Roper Chimney.
I am also curious to see whether or not that 3rd seemingly off-route bolt feels necessary. It doesn't look like it. Looks like they tried to go that way and then backed off and went straight up instead. There is another line of holds higher up to the left that might have drawn them in. They might have even considered an alternate finish and then never went back - the two FAists never did another route at Pinns.
Come on down and let's get out there :biggrin: :thumbup:
-
Thanks for the work JC. I have two of the no-longer made Big Bro #5 tube chocks (11.5-18.5") if you need to use them for the Roper Chimney. I have also never done that route and it is on my list of interesting routes to do.
-
As Dennis and Noal and I climbed yesterday, we looked down about half a mile to the top of Nebulous Knob.
Three hours. That's my estimate of how long one of our primary bolt-replacers was on top of that thing. Three hours of not climbing, but instead of laboring to make sure that yet another bolt replacement was done right.
I expect that the average member of the climbing community will never understand this level of work and dedication. Those of us on here do though. Nice work John.
-
As Dennis and Noal and I climbed yesterday, we looked down about half a mile to the top of Nebulous Knob.
Three hours. That's my estimate of how long one of our primary bolt-replacers was on top of that thing. Three hours of not climbing, but instead of laboring to make sure that yet another bolt replacement was done right.
I expect that the average member of the climbing community will never understand this level of work and dedication. Those of us on here do though. Nice work John.
Much appreciated Brad. I'll post some pics later today.
-
As Dennis and Noal and I climbed yesterday, we looked down about half a mile to the top of Nebulous Knob.
Three hours. That's my estimate of how long one of our primary bolt-replacers was on top of that thing. Three hours of not climbing, but instead of laboring to make sure that yet another bolt replacement was done right.
I expect that the average member of the climbing community will never understand this level of work and dedication. Those of us on here do though. Nice work John.
It was a good thing we were in the sun all day - or I might have been complaining while JC was up top working on the anchors ;D I need to take lessons from Brad and learn to put a book or magazine in my pack. However, I did enjoy watching the condor show yesterday. The most I counted at one time was eight. They were flying fairly low and were mainly around all the formations along the Pipsqueak Ridge. :)
-
Three hours? Are you retired or something? Keep up the good work!
-
Three hours? Are you retired or something? Keep up the good work!
Hey, don't you have a re-model to attend to?
Or go shovel the driveway or something....
-
Yeah, John keep up the good work. Truly impressive body of work with all the old bolts you have replaced.
-
Kat and I had quite the adventure working on Nebulous Knob yesterday.
We did a recon hike past there last weekend.
Here's a few shots from working on Nebulous Knob.
The white streak you see just above center photo is tat on the lead bolt. The location of the bolt relative to the stance was interesting. I sat down to work on it. I would say it was either drilled sitting down or from a kneeling position. By the time you move up to reach those knobs on the left (one of which is cracked and wiggly), the bolt is below your feet. Moving past the knobs is the second crux.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4765/25634654017_e1e1c36feb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F4fixp)
I climbed to the summit and replaced the anchor first. The old single anchor bolt was a quarter incher with a smash link in so so rock. Based on the rock quality, I decided to relocate the anchor and aim the rappel back down the route. The hanger on the old bolt was tight and oriented to put you over the left side of the formation relative to the route (the left skyline in the picture above). The rappel in that direction is much longer and would deposit you well below the start in poison oak.
Here is a picture of the old anchor bolt which I left for the sake of history.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4610/25634653277_debb498a1d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F4fijD)
Here is a picture of the replacement anchor with the old, single anchor bolt shown above.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4719/40505171581_bf0e1be055_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24HiAkg)
After I finished working on the anchor, Kat followed the route (thanks for your patience Kat) and I rapped down to replace the lead bolt.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4749/40505171441_1c1cdb72ce_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24HiAhR)
The lead bolt was tight in the rock but the hanger had enough room behind it to get the tuning fork in as shown. For this picture I merely slid it behind with my fingers and had not hammered it in yet. I drove the fork to its limit and then slid the bolt out with almost no pressure on the crowbar. I could have left the crowbar at home. A little wiggling with fingers would have accomplished the desired result. I have serious doubts that the bolt would have held a leader fall, especially given how far you are above it when you are making the crux moves.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4613/40505171241_6c1196af62_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24HiAep)
Two inch long, quarter inch compression bolt showing no compression and an inch and a quarter embedment (the hole was under drilled). The nut was screwed all the way down until it bottomed out (ran out of threads). That is why the hanger was loose. FA 1965.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4704/25635480897_649448f3cb_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F4jxkX)
Parting shot showing the replacement lead bolt.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4604/25634652997_aebfd7307d_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/F4fieP)
-
I simply will not miss old bolts like those. I agree with leaving the one on top for history's sake. But otherwise, good riddance.
-
Yeah, John keep up the good work. Truly impressive body of work with all the old bolts you have replaced.
Thanks Mud. There is still lots of old stuff to climb and work on. The list will likely outlast me!
-
Excellent work JC. I looked at that climb once and decided against it after viewing that lead bolt with the tat from the start.
-
Excellent work JC. I looked at that climb once and decided against it after viewing that lead bolt with the tat from the start.
It's a long way up but when you get there you'll be greeted by this lovely sight.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4605/26639616698_d553c02482_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GA3ZWb)
The start is a bit hairy but there is an okay(not great) small tree you can tether behind all the boulders.
If I compare this climb to Punctuation Pinnacle at 5.1X, I thought Nebulous was way scarier.
On Punctuation you are on easy slab to a short headwall at the top.
On Nebulous the exposure and commitment are in your face right from the start. As Noal would say it's Old School cool :biggrin: :thumbup:
-
Peregrine.
Did the first pitch a few months ago, every bolt looked original? Old stars with leepers. Was stoked to do the second and third pitch (aiding the second, cuz im mortal), but we were low on daylight. Maybe a good thing...
Emailed FOP and was promptly replied to positively, just posting here because I'm an antsy shmuck. Cant wait for the wall to open.
Anything to spend more time on the Balconies ;D
-
Peregrine is a good candidate for rebolting.
Welcome to the forum
-
Thanks! I've been stalking all you guys on here a while, finaly felt I had something to contribute. Weather and daylight permitting, I go to pinns once or twice a week on average. Weekdays mostly. If I can ever be of service in any way I would be honored.
-
JC, was good to see you and KC on the rock (yes we were stalking you guys), and in the parking lot.
I've been stalking all you guys on here a while
I go to pinns once or twice a week on average. Weekdays mostly. If I can ever be of service in any way I would be honored.
Wow. Two admitted stalkings in under a week.
Zay...Now you are in trouble (always looking for volunteers). :yesnod: :devildevil: :lol: I sent you a message.
-
I'm really, really good at getting into trouble. Replied, sorry if double emails... still figuring out the forum-mat
-
With this group I do not think there is any honor, lol. It is more like, Wow, someone that will actually tolerate us.
-
I beg to differ, who wouldn't tolerate us? We are so refreshingly despicable.
-
Tolerate is the key word....ice cold beer is a favorite phrase.
;D
-
I, too, like ice cold beer, and require tolerance. Looks like I'm nozing around the right place :lol:
-
This is on topic for the thread. We moved the last bolt on Shades of Jade. We moved the bolt down 10 inches and to the left 4 1/2 feet. The last bolt now properly protects the bulge.
-
This is on topic for the thread. We moved the last bolt on Shades of Jade. We moved the bolt down 10 inches and to the left 4 1/2 feet. The last bolt now properly protects the bulge.
Sweet dude. We were eyeballing the line today from The Barge.
Going back tomorrow for some more tomfoolery. Maybe some bally hoo.
-
I can't believe they're still out there.
While J.C. "tapped, tapped, tapped" away, replacing the bolts on yet another route, I got to wander a little.
I found another obviously abandoned project (one now-hangerless bolt 25 feet up and an old bit of one inch tubular tied to something under the moss 40 feet up). All on a decent looking slab that is 90 or 100 feet high. I think they bailed too soon and should have gone a little left where they went a little right.
He and I should go revive and finish it ;)
-
Three taps per turn does the job.
Note
A turn is not a full revolution.
-
Three taps per turn does the job.
Note
A turn is not a full revolution.
Yeah...like you would know :out: :prrr:
-
I can't believe they're still out there.
While J.C. "tapped, tapped, tapped" away, replacing the bolts on yet another route, I got to wander a little.
I found another obviously abandoned project (one now-hangerless bolt 25 feet up and an old bit of one inch tubular tied to something under the moss 40 feet up). All on a decent looking slab that is 90 or 100 feet high. I think they bailed too soon and should have gone a little left where they went a little right.
He and I should go revive and finish it ;)
Let's go zig where they zagged :thumbup: :biggrin: :yesnod:
-
Three taps per turn does the job.
Note
A turn is not a full revolution.
No, gorilla hands and arms do the job (in your case anyway). The human Bosche.
-
Let's go zig where they zagged :thumbup: :biggrin: :yesnod:
We'll have to zag once to go see what that black retreat webbing is tied to under all that moss). I'm highly curious.
Then we'll zig. ;D
-
We'll have to zag once to go see what that black retreat webbing is tied to under all that moss). I'm highly curious.
Then we'll zig. ;D
It's tied to a bone :lol:
-
I just wanted to give a heads up if anyone rushes out to climb Old Route. The old anchor bolt up there was too cool to pull and it is also nice and tight. With that in mind I placed another bolt in excellent rock and decided to continue using the old bolt in combination with it. The one thing I forgot to take out Tuesday was a pair of three eighths screwlinks with chain links. As a result, I put on the only thing I had with me - a sub-standard screwlink. The combination of that and the smash link on the old bolt resulted in a tough pull - but the climb is short and you do have the option of backing up into a meadow to lessen the friction and the ensuing battle while retrieving your rope. I will get back up there soon and get the appropriate links on the hangers.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/961/27006130117_2803f8b987_c.jpg)
-
I removed the single Leeper hanger and bolt at the top of Palisade Pinnacle and replaced it with two modern bolts and rappel quicklinks & rappel rings. I also replaced the single lead bolt on The Lamb today. JC, nice job on the rappel bolts for Brittle Palace.
-
I removed the single Leeper hanger and bolt at the top of Palisade Pinnacle and replaced it with two modern bolts and rappel quicklinks & rappel rings. I also replaced the single lead bolt on The Lamb today. JC, nice job on the rappel bolts for Brittle Palace.
Hey, you're not allowed to be down there on weekdays!
-
I removed the single Leeper hanger and bolt at the top of Palisade Pinnacle and replaced it with two modern bolts and rappel quicklinks & rappel rings. I also replaced the single lead bolt on The Lamb today. JC, nice job on the rappel bolts for Brittle Palace.
I'll add those to the Master List - thanks!
Did you climb the Palace?
-
Yes, I climbed Brittle Palace. The name fits it.
-
Yes, I climbed Brittle Palace. The name fits it.
I figured you did - especially since you were commenting on the anchor.
I didn't think that climb was Class Four but not many of them actually are.
I carry at least a light rack when checking out Class Four routes.
We thought maybe 5.2 with some fairly decent pro.
I placed a couple medium to large cams and tied off the tree and chockstone.
I wound around the back toward the top for the easiest way to the summit.
Tricky finding the start :yesnod: :biggrin: :thumbup:
-
I thought the rating was very easy fifth class, no harder than 5.2. I also did many other climbs in that area. The single lead protection bolt on Crumbling Castle - Original Route just beyond the chimney is in need of replacement. It is a homemade bent aluminum hanger with a Star Dryvin bolt.
-
I thought the rating was very easy fifth class, no harder than 5.2. I also did many other climbs in that area. The single lead protection bolt on Crumbling Castle - Original Route just beyond the chimney is in need of replacement. It is a homemade bent aluminum hanger with a Star Dryvin bolt.
Yes, I saw that some years ago when I did the 5.5 route.
Did you do that 5.6 Original Route? That thing looks nutty to me - death fall into the chimney.
The 2nd bolt on the 10a also needs replacing.
What else did you do? Give us the skinny on Quest for Mud :thumbup: :biggrin: :yesnod:
-
I did "Palisades Pinnacle - Northeast Face", "Palisades Pinnacle - East Face", "Monument", "Brittle Palace", "Tombstone - Regular Route", "Tombstone - Doc Holliday Direct" (scary), "Crumbing Castle - Regular Route" (scary), "Crumbling Castle - Original Route" (on top rope), and two variations of "Cave Pinnacle". I did not trust doing the Original Route of Crumbling Castle on lead because I could not find a good rope solo anchor at the base and the protection in the chimney is probably horrible, i.e., would not hold a fall. I looked at "Low Peaks", but will have to do that another day.
-
Machete direct
I have it on good authority that 1 of the bolts for the final bolt ladder, I think the last one, Shifts outwards. I think the guy might have a picture all see if I can get one from him, But I think he said it was one of the boats with the large double hanger thing. I believe he climbed it roughly 3 months ago.
-
regarding my last post...
just climbed West Face, which includes final two pitches of machete direct. i didnt notice any bolts shifting on me, though quite a few of those suckers are pretty damn old!
-
...though quite a few of those suckers are pretty damn old!
So am I. You got a problem with that?
(Did you do Los Banditos yet - oh yeah, it's closed right now isn't it?)
-
regarding my last post...
just climbed West Face, which includes final two pitches of machete direct. i didnt notice any bolts shifting on me, though quite a few of those suckers are pretty damn old!
There are definitely still some old bolts on the climb.
From what I remember, most of the critical ones are in decent shape or have been replaced.
I haven't been on p4 but I don't remember anything manky on p3 and you can tell the stuff on p1 and 2 look decent from the ground. People may have worked on it over the years with no reports - maybe as a result of trying to free the aid sections?
I do recall a star dryvin at the 5.8 crux on p5 but the move is so contrived that it is easy enough to avoid by staying in the crack. There is one more star above that but the move is easy and then you just run it for the rest of the last pitch after placing a piece - I only remember getting in one decent piece of gear. The anchor pitch 5 has old bolts but there are also gear placements and safety in the number of bolts.
Here is the only rebolt info I have - it's posted on the rebolt Master List
784 – Machete Direct – p2 anchor - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2013
784 - Machete Direct - p3 belay hangers - Hildenbrand, Cummins, Jan 2014
784 – Machete Direct - p3, 2nd bolt - Hildenbrand, Jan 2015
-
So am I. You got a problem with that?
(Did you do Los Banditos yet - oh yeah, it's closed right now isn't it?)
Los Banditos is okay except for the 4th pitch - as long as you go left after pitch 3 (down the Rappel Bypass) you won't get on the section of Old Original that is sensitive.
-
JC, roger that i definitely never felt like i was "gunna die" from any of the bolts. in fact i was surprised by how well intact some of the quarter inchers looked.
Brad, I was actually trying to convince Megan to do los banditos yesterday! but shes got a wrist injury and was afraid thr cruxes might be a bit too much. so i went into the shower scratching my suddzy head thinking, "what the hell do i want to do today... something different..."
West Face was the eureka conclusion. We had a blast, though i do have to say that parts of that third class traverse were pretty ****** up! shortly after passing thr bolt ladder for deadilus you have to scramble over/around a nasty chunk of rock about the size of a fridge, you can see tunnels erroding through it, and a knock knock test concludes that you could probably dislodge the whole mo fo with a light kick.
fun adventure climb!
-
I worked on Pinch or Lynch Regular Route yesterday and was actually uncomfortably chilly.
Temp only got to 65 and there were wind gusts up to 28.
I got the anchor replaced, added chains and then dropped in for the 3 lead bolts.
I replaced the third, couldn't find the second and finished by replacing the first.
I'll have to go back to find and replace the second lead bolt.
If it's like the others, it is a star dryvin on an SMC Death hanger and evidently hard to see (imagine that).
Too bad F4 didn't put this route up with his pink hangers :yesnod: :thumbup: :out: :redface:
The top lead bolt
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1747/42449735692_d0a7343e9e_z.jpg)
All the old junk. The anchor had one Leeper and one SMC Death hanger. All the replacement bolts are in the original holes.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1759/41598665865_5db4b6f3ec_z.jpg)
and this is for clink. The step across you have to do to get out to the anchor.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/881/42449735512_d0a7343e9e_z.jpg)
-
That bolt looks bomber.
-
That bolt looks bomber.
Thanks F4 Jr. :out: :nonod: :prrr: :ciappa:
-
hey JC,
which one is the death hanger? ive alwayd been told the old leeper hangers are the more trapezoidal looking ones... like with triangular angles...
are the SMC death hangers the rounder ones from your picture? im surprised that ive heard about leepers being sketchy but not about DMC "death hangers".
something new to watch out for!
would you recommend retreating from a route with the SMC DH's? or just clip it.,focus, and dont fall?
-
Thanks F4 Jr. :out: :nonod: :prrr: :ciappa:
Whoa, an honor and a slap!
-
hey JC,
which one is the death hanger? ive alwayd been told the old leeper hangers are the more trapezoidal looking ones... like with triangular angles...
are the SMC death hangers the rounder ones from your picture? im surprised that ive heard about leepers being sketchy but not about DMC "death hangers".
something new to watch out for!
would you recommend retreating from a route with the SMC DH's? or just clip it.,focus, and dont fall?
Sadly all the Leepers are suspect (recalled ages ago). The star dryvins can be really solid or at least feel that way. Two of the stars I pulled yesterday were tight but came completely out of the hole (lead sleeve and all) with the nail only halfway out. :yikes: With a really good one, you have to pull the nail, then the sleeve and finally the lead sleeve. It should be a 3 stage process - not one. The bolt pictured looked and felt good but it was one of the ones that came out in one stage. The other one was one of the anchor bolts. Regardless of the bolt, the hangers cannot be trusted.
Here is a discussion of the Death hangers. In answer to your question, either choice is prudent. I can't tell you how many No Fall routes I have done at Pinns. Well...I could but that is a different story altogether :lol:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1675000/SMC-hangers
-
are the SMC death hangers the rounder ones from your picture?
Yep
-
If you take a really good look at it and it does not move, your probably fine.
-
Bolts looked perfectly fine.
Pink does match the pinnacles rock.
-
If you take a really good look at it and it does not move, your probably fine.
This applies to many of the posters here as well.
-
Oh, jeepers. Clink that was good.
-
Damn clink!!!
-
Pinch or Lynch is done. I'll post officially later.
-
This applies to many of the posters here as well.
I'm not moving, Clink.
-
JC did you get my message? I have thursday off and am looking to learn some rebolting kung fu!
-
JC did you get my message? I have thursday off and am looking to learn some rebolting kung fu!
I messaged you yesterday at 4:30. Is the messaging on this site not working?
-
refreshing my emails shows nothing :( sorry to clutter the forum like this...
... but if youre available and in the mood to teach some kung fu, Id be happy to meet you thursday where/whenever.
if yes, and theres any gear i should pickup let me know. i know pacific edge sells some hand drills and some bolts/hangers.
if you cant then no big ill try to hit you up on my next day off.
-
refreshing my emails shows nothing :( sorry to clutter the forum like this...
A message on here - same way you messaged me (check your messages).
-
Anybody know of a source for stainless steel bolts and hangers other than Fixe Hardware and Rapbolting.com? Both firms are sold out on stainless steel bolts and most hangers - perhaps the threatened trade war is starting to have its consequences.
-
My garage for hangers. Bolts, others have places.
Munge climber has a place near his house. I guess say you work for John clink to get the contractors special.
I need to check on my supply of hangers.
I was saving them to fix mr muds routes.
😉
Rapbolting.com, damn that’s great.
-
Mutualscrew.com
Slogan is - It's better when it's mutual.
https://www.mutualscrew.com/
No idea on hangers.
Fixe always has the best price but all they have had is 1/2" on sale now for months.
Guess we might have to resort to climbing established routes.
I think there's still a few I haven't done :lol:
-
climbtech appears to have hangers at 2.69 but that is a bit more than I usually pay
http://www.climbtechgear.com/climb-hard/bolts-hardware/hangers/
-
JC,
Thanks for the recommendation on Mutual Screw. I just placed an order for the Powers 304 stainless steel anchor rating wedge bolts. I have heard the Hilti bolts wedge bolts are better, but Hilti closed their local store in Fresno and does not do direct mail order. I still have enough hangers for the time being and I need painted hangers, which Fixe does still have but they are more expensive.
-
My most knowledgable source for bolts and bolting gear said this about the Powers bolts:
"The Power-Studs have gone downhill relatively recently. These days the threads are cut, not rolled, which reduces the strength pretty substantially. So I'm not recommending those."
I was going to order some, but backed off after that "recommendation."
-
Mutualscrew.com
Hmmn.
-
So are we back to Star Dryvins? (no I cannot spell)
-
So are we back to Star Darwins?
That is correct
-
I think Brad's source has this wrong according to several mechanical engineers I have spoken to. Cutting threads on an item is a very expensive and time consuming process compared to rolling of threads. I doubt a company who is mass producing bolts would want to intentionally do something that is more expensive and time consuming unless it was by special order or at a much higher expense. Their guess is that Powers is rolling threads just like everyone else except very high end bolts (we are not buying these very high end bolts).
-
I trust my source. I don't think he's guessing. Since you are so public-service minded, you'll be able to talk to him directly on Saturday.
Looking forward to seeing you then!
-
Thanks Brad. It might be a mute point since Fixe and Hilti bolts are basically unobtainable at this point. So we are down to Powers wedge bolts and Powers 5-piece bolts. I am getting tired of the problems with the new design of the Powers 5-piece bolts causing botched placements.
-
Powers 5 pieces of shet.
-
Powers has been purchased by DeWalt. I just bought a large bag of 5 piece. And, hangers. Think I will go climbing tomorrow. Yeah, me.
-
Powers has been purchased by DeWalt. I just bought a large bag of 5 piece. And, hangers. Think I will go climbing tomorrow. Yeah, me.
Powers is owned by Black and Decker.
Black and Decker also owns DeWalt.
DeWalt is nothing more than Black and Decker in a yellow box.
Word.
-
That is like saying a Cadillac is just a Chevy Spark with a different paint job.
-
That is like saying a Cadillac is just a Chevy Spark with a different paint job.
What about climbers in orange shirts?
-
All tossers
-
Looks like we're going to place an order next week for 1,200 Hilti 3 inch by 3/8 inch wedge bolts. I've been placing these for years and love them. Tom Addison highly recommends them too.
Not sure of a price yet, but prices are moving up fast on all stainless steel (thank you beloved dear leader). Somewhere around $3.50 to $4.00 per piece. Who's in for 50 or 100?
-
Count me in for 100 of the Hilti's.
-
Count me in for 100 of the Hilti's.
Not I said the little red hen. But thanks for the offer :biggrin:
-
All tossers
Bugger :lol: :ciappa:
-
I suggest that climbers coffee expands to include pastries and F4 giving a talk "The unfake history of Pinnacles climbing, what happened at and away from the Park".
:)
-
Mud could do a late night version.
Don't bring the kids to this.
-
Zay came out with me yesterday to learn about rebolting.
He got to replace a star dryvin from start to finish after watching me do one.
I think he got a good education in types of bolts and hangers (information overload).
He spotted a death hanger on the last lead bolt of Sound Chaser. The bolt appeared to be a split shaft but the end threads had been smashed - preventing me from using my nifty extraction tool. I wanted to extract the bolt and then have Zay drill out the hole and replace the bolt.
The old bolt turned out to be a Red Head that could not be completely removed. I drilled a new hole, installed the replacement and patched the old hole. Not quite the additional practice I was hoping for but a good lesson in how things can go wrong and the decisions that have to be made.
Zay getting some hands-on experience
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1757/42101151954_b95d469abb_c.jpg)
I bet no one knows where this old bolt is
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/884/42101151604_67149f2206_b.jpg)
-
Added today
107 – Spaceman Spiff – anchor – J Cook, Isaiah Foulks, 6-14-18
207 – Sound Chaser – bolt 5 replaced – J Cook, I Foulks, 6-14-18
As a side note = the anchor above Spaceman Spiff was a cluster of 3 old star dryvins with SMC death hangers that predated the route. Two of the bolts were replaced in their original holes and the third bolt removed and patched. The replacement anchor can also be used as a substitute or a backup to a second similar cluster of 3 old bolts that point toward Dismemberment Gorge and also predate that route.
Holy wow! That's the first time one of my routes has been rebolted. Feels weird.
-
I don't recognize that old bolt, BTW.
-
Holy wow! That's the first time one of my routes has been rebolted. Feels weird.
That's why I put that side note in there. That anchor was there long before you bolted Spaceman no?
I didn't even look at the bolts on Spaceman since you said they were fine.
Those death hangers needed to go but I also wanted to leave some of them as a potential teaching tool.
One of the nails was 3 3/4" - the longest I have ever seen - I found one on The Frog a few years back.
-
That's why I put that side note in there. That anchor was there long before you bolted Spaceman no?
I didn't even look at the bolts on Spaceman since you said they were fine.
Those death hangers needed to go but I also wanted to leave some of them as a potential teaching tool.
One of the nails was 3 3/4" - the longest I have ever seen - I found one on The Frog a few years back.
Oh yeah, all six of the bolts on top of that buttress were old and rusty when we did Spaceman Spiff. And it still feels weird to have one of my FAs re-bolted.
Even though it needed it. Even though I didn't place those old anchor bolts. Even though technically I re-bolted one of my FAs earlier this year (replaced/moved that bolt on Heaven's Gate). Weird.
BTW, while I told you that the lead bolts on Spaceman Spiff look good, I'd still love to have YOU look at them. One out of six needs tightening; the hanger is loose. Also, I have absolutely no idea what kind of bolts those are. I'd have sworn with absolute certainty that we placed long, carbon steel Rawl 5-piece, but they aren't. Some sort of nut-on-the-outside something. Wedge? Probably. I don't think I ever placed a compression bolt at Pinnacles. They look good, little or no rust, and they feel tight. But I'd love to get your reaction to them.
I also though we placed long Rawl, carbon steel 5-piece on Heaven's Gate but my memory was wrong. Those bolts (at least the upper two thirds of them) are the same as whatever we placed on Spaceman Spiff.
At least I remember your name though John. Most of the time.
-
I never lie.
Plus I drink decaf these days.
-
Oh yeah, all six of the bolts on top of that buttress were old and rusty when we did Spaceman Spiff. And it still feels weird to have one of my FAs re-bolted.
Even though it needed it. Even though I didn't place those old anchor bolts. Even though technically I re-bolted one of my FAs earlier this year (replaced/moved that bolt on Heaven's Gate). Weird.
BTW, while I told you that the lead bolts on Spaceman Spiff look good, I'd still love to have YOU look at them. One out of six needs tightening; the hanger is loose. Also, I have absolutely no idea what kind of bolts those are. I'd have sworn with absolute certainty that we placed long, carbon steel Rawl 5-piece, but they aren't. Some sort of nut-on-the-outside something. Wedge? Probably. I don't think I ever placed a compression bolt at Pinnacles. They look good, little or no rust, and they feel tight. But I'd love to get your reaction to them.
I also thought we placed long Rawl, carbon steel 5-piece on Heaven's Gate but my memory was wrong. Those bolts (at least the upper two thirds of them) are the same as whatever we placed on Spaceman Spiff.
At least I remember your name though John. Most of the time.
Don't forget - you rebolted Catatonic Stupor too - well...the anchor at least.
I can definitely take a look at Spaceman.
That button head is on Buzzard Bait.
I am debating whether or not to try and rebolt anything on Moses Springs Wall because of the lack of anchors and I have never seen anyone climbing any of those routes - besides HSMM. Maybe better to discourage traffic on those given their proximity to the trail. I know the guidebook already tells folks to avoid them on the weekend. Even during the week I might want to have a spotter on the trail - at least for the follower - given the increase in potential targets.
The Kammerlander and Beyer routes would of course take priority.
Three stars from Spaceman and the remains of the Red Head (set bolt) from Sound Chaser
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1807/41013442250_b70a1bb479_c.jpg)
-
Don't forget - you rebolted Catatonic Stupor too - well...the anchor at least.
Well there you go Steve. I forgot all about that one too. OK, so it feels weird to have YOU rebolt a route I FAed ;)
-
I am debating whether or not to try and rebolt anything on Moses Springs Wall because of the lack of anchors and I have never seen anyone climbing any of those routes - besides HSMM. Maybe better to discourage traffic on those given their proximity to the trail. I know the guidebook already tells folks to avoid them on the weekend. Even during the week I might want to have a spotter on the trail - at least for the follower - given the increase in potential targets.
The Kammerlander and Beyer routes would of course take priority.
I'm not sure that those routes get done much either. Or at all. But that's not a factor that's ever stopped the rebolting process. And right now, Moses Spring Wall probably has the greatest concentration of bad bolts in the whole park.
I think spending your efforts there would be a great public service. And maybe it's not so crowded on Summer weekdays?
-
I agree, The Gulch also sees a lot of climbers, more than any other part of the park. So odds are someone will venture there.
-
Looks like we're going to place an order next week for 1,200 Hilti 3 inch by 3/8 inch wedge bolts. I've been placing these for years and love them. Tom Addison highly recommends them too.
Not sure of a price yet, but prices are moving up fast on all stainless steel (thank you beloved dear leader). Somewhere around $3.50 to $4.00 per piece. Who's in for 50 or 100?
I’ll go for a hundred
-
That button head is on Buzzard Bait.
I am debating whether or not to try and rebolt anything on Moses Springs Wall because of the lack of anchors and I have never seen anyone climbing any of those routes - besides HSMM. Maybe better to discourage traffic on those given their proximity to the trail.
Is that button head on Buzzard Bait the single bolt belay? If so it was added approximately 10 or so years after the FA and used along with the tied off brush (original anchors) when updating the first quarter inch rawl split shaft bolt/skinny SMC hanger to a 3/8” carbon rawl 5-piece.
-
Is that button head on Buzzard Bait the single bolt belay? If so it was added approximately 10 or so years after the FA and used along with the tied off brush (original anchors) when updating the first quarter inch rawl split shaft bolt/skinny SMC hanger to a 3/8” carbon rawl 5-piece.
Yes it is.
Does that mean you guys updated all the hardware or just the first bolt?
Suggestions on removing the anchor bolt? I have a 3/8 tuning fork and crowbar. I'm guessing that is the only way since button heads are compression bolts.
While we are at it how about we open up a discussion of all these old climbs that need rebolted but have no anchors.
The park has made it clear they do not want us using trees or brush as anchors.
Thoughts?
-
JC,
I noticed that the single lead bolt on Rook - Regular Route has been replaced, but your master list does not mention this. I saw the bolt while wandering over there during trail building at PCAD. I am not sure if the top anchor bolts, if there are any, have been replaced.
-
JC,
I noticed that the single lead bolt on Rook - Regular Route has been replaced, but your master list does not mention this. I saw the bolt while wandering over there during trail building at PCAD. I am not sure if the top anchor bolts, if there are any, have been replaced.
Hey Mark - thanks for the heads up. It is listed in the guidebook as RB FOP 2003 and Bruce told me some time ago that he had rebolted it solo. I led the climb on 1-21-18
Here are my notes (spoiler alert) - This is a fun route. The bolt was a bit low but it protects in the hardest part so it’s good. You only have to make a couple easy moves to clip it and then it protects the trickiest part. I got past the bolt by moving up until it was at my waist (I had to switch my foot position to lead with the left foot up) and then stepped through to the left and up from there on easier climbing (once you step through). It is not hard but it is tricky and a bit awkward. It did not help that the hands are not great and the sun was right in my face for looking right to find anything for the right hand. Once you step through and your feet are above the bolt, the features get big and the climbing is easy. The upper part is chimney-like and pretty fun but there is some loose rock to watch out for. The middle summit (battlement) at the top feels very exposed and drops away sharply over the other side. The opposite end summits are cool and I had Kat belay me over to the unprotected summit because it looked a bit higher and felt like the true summit.
Here is the current anchor. The rappel is only 35 feet back down to the uphill side.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1916/44431614815_184e5e4687_z.jpg)
-
It’s the time for my seasonal migration. Does anyone have any ASCA gear I could use this week? I’m ready to start in on rebolting some of the monolith stuff as time allows. Going to be camping down there starting tonight for a few days.
-
Thanks for the offer Atom. Hopefully things will work out for you to be able to get out and survey some of that stuff this year and we can talk more about what needs to be done.
-
I worked on the shared anchor for Big Nixon/Little Richard/Watergate yesterday. The guidebook says to use the tree 30 feet back but I found 2 old bolts near that tree separated by a space of about 12 feet. The tree is also totally dead. Both bolts were star dryvins with SMC death hangers oriented toward the climbs. Both bolts were in lodestones. I removed both of the old bolts and relocated the anchor to a spot that will service all three climbs. I only had time to get one bolt in, a few feet a way from what appears to be a bomber, slingable lodestone. On closer inspection, I am not comfortable leaving this as a one bolt anchor coupled with the slingable lodestone. I will return soon and place a second bolt.
The old upper bolt in a partially embedded lodestone next to a failed hole. Note to aspiring bolters - DON'T place bolts in lodestones unless it is a last resort. I have never had to do this (even as a last resort).
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4874/31960987588_8bbae38985_z.jpg)
The lower bolt in another lodestone (this one is pretty well embedded but it was still totally unnecessary - plenty of good matrix all around here).
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4832/31960987708_dd932ca1b8_z.jpg)
Locations of both old bolts marked by a biner w some hardware and my visor (aka the world's most disgusting tennis visor)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4807/45831750911_2e7dc20d9b_z.jpg)
The dead tree showing no new vegetation and no needles. Still a large piece of wood but undoubtedly headed for the afterlife.
I should also mention that the park has a rule about using vegetation for anchors - it's not allowed.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4853/31960988168_fab258d752_z.jpg)
One new bolt next to the large, slingable knob (feels solid but sounds hollow and no way to tell how deeply it is keyed in). Looks suspiciously undercut on this side.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4833/45831750831_02eef98d62_z.jpg)
Looking toward the top out for the routes with the big knob (right) and white patch/drill dust/bolt (left)
The haziness is smoke from the Camp Fire near Chico
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4839/31960987978_836c255bed.jpg)
-
Hey Adam, are you going to add some bolts to the Monolith?
I can give you a few if you need some.
Hawaiian noises can use a few.
POD can use. 1 or 2.
If you have a bit more energy, there is always knuckle ridge.
-
Hey Adam, are you going to add some bolts to the Monolith?
I can give you a few if you need some.
Hawaiian noises can use a few.
POD can use. 1 or 2.
If you have a bit more energy, there is always knuckle ridge.
And PINK hangers too please :yesnod: :biggrin: :thumbup: :lol: :crying:
-
Sure that would help the blend in.
-
Is it true Clint and Bruce replaced some of the bolts on Wet Kiss?
Cool!
-
Is it true Clint and Bruce replaced some of the bolts on Wet Kiss?
Cool!
64 - Wet Kiss - replaced bolts #1, #4, and #5, replaced hanger on bolt #2 - Hildenbrand, Cummins, 2017
-
This month I have replaced all of the four lead protection bolts on the third pitch of 830 Serpiente de Cascabel. Most of the bolts pulled were longer Star Dryvin's with somewhat modern stainless steel hangers, but one of them was a 1-1/2" Star Dryvin bolt placed in rotten rock that would not have held a fall since the entire rock face exploded with a light pull.
The belay anchor at the top of the second pitch now has three bolts. I left the original large buttonhead bolt attached to a machine shop-made stainless steel hanger. This hanger was made at a machine shop in King City according to Bob Walton. While the historic hanger is bomber, these large split-shaft bolts are known to break in the hole, so I would not clip solely into this bolt at the belay without using the other two bolts.
At the suggestion of Bob Walton, I added a bolt in the water chute on the third pitch. This bolt is at a stance near the end of the extended 5.5 climbing and between the original third and fourth lead protection bolts. Bob told me that he had intended to place a bolt in this runout section when doing the first ascent, but his drill was very dull. The bolt does not change the nature of the climbing since there is harder climbing on the route. Rather, it makes the distance between protection compatible with the rest of the climb.
I upped my game on the re-bolting tools. I made a few tuning fork chisels and now use a torque wrench. Thank you JC for the suggestions. It is a lot easier to use a large tuning fork rather than several pitons at the same time.
-
^^^
Very nice, "Dude." That's a lot of work!!
-
By the way, Mark, I'm curious how you chose that route for rebolting?
-
By the way, Mark, I'm curious how you chose that route for rebolting?
He kept seeing the old slings while working on Derringer and surrounding routes.
The dude abides...
-
As JC said, the dude abides.
-
I mostly took these two photos for J.C., since he's made a real study of Pinnacles bolts. The first is the first bolt on the route The Hippopotamus. It serves as a belay bolt on the ledge below the first of the fifth class climbing. I'm pretty sure it's a 1/2 inch bolt (I should've used something next to the bolt to scale it). I suppose it could be 3/8 inch, but with an enormous nut. It certainly wasn't smaller than 3/8 inch. Vintage 1960s?
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7902/40408320243_6b444ffd38_c.jpg)
The first lead bolt on the route (low, left-center of photo). It appeared to be the same type of bolt, but I didn't climb up to check it )being alone and in approach shoes and all):
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7830/40408318853_4b12b0a87f_b.jpg)
-
Bolts look fine.
Larger the nut, safer the bolt.
-
Larger the nut, safer the bolt.
And you, beloved Factor, are our favorite example of the first half of your assertion. As to the second half? I hereby volunteer to hold the rope while you clip that bolt and jump off.
-
Sure
-
Looks like a 3/8 stud to me - using the smashlink for thickness comparison.
Could be an easy replacement if it's a split shaft.
-
When we talked to Bruce and Clint on Tuesday, Bruce regaled me with tales of Daedalus. It took them 5 trips to get the whole route done. There is now an aid ladder at the start, where the tree died and fell over a few years back. The 4 bolt aid ladder was added with the permission of the FA party.
-
Hey JC, thought you might get a kick out of this. Just think if you ever move to Colorado all the Beyer routes you could re-bolt! Maybe he will visit Pinnacles again....https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116842150/really-jim (https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116842150/really-jim)
-
Hey JC, thought you might get a kick out of this. Just think if you ever move to Colorado all the Beyer routes you could re-bolt! Maybe he will visit Pinnacles again....https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116842150/really-jim (https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/116842150/really-jim)
Funny dude.
Let the Beyer beware :lol:
-
I must say the use of chain is very resourceful or maybe just plain thrifty.
-
Ha I saw that in Africa at a sport climbing place. There, bolts and hangers are $$, so it makes sense.
Plus you can fix the worn links.
-
I've seen a few anchors set up that way in the Alabama Hills.
-
Could be worse!!
-
Could be worse!!
I've replaced worse at Pinns by Beyer.
Atlas Shrugs had star dryvins that were partially driven, bent, smashed, cut-off nails.
Stuff that makes you shiver.
I could post some pics but I'd rather not waste what little free space I have left on Flikr.
-
Agree, not worth the effort, just move forward.
-
Cataract Corner on the Monolith has some heavily rusted bolts. I heard about this forum and thought I'd spread the finding. Unfortunately, I did not have any means to take a picture to post here. The bolts are worse higher up. As it stands I'd be a little nervous taking a whiper on some of these.
Any plans to replace these?
-
I’d be down for helping out replacing the bolts.
-
Please excuse me but I know nothing of that climb other than what I can find in the guidebooks.
I looked up the FA and the bolt pattern on the topo.
Carville did the FA 33 years ago. Not absolutely sure what type of bolts he used but Rubine says they are 3/8 wedges. Unfortunately, I don't have the correct tools for pulling wedges (if that is indeed what he used). I have found that some of Rubine's info is incorrect with regard to hardware. I'd have to inspect them myself. I don't have a spinner tool for removing wedges (so the holes can be reused) and I would not be comfortable moving any of the bolt locations on a climb that difficult.
At 33 years old, the strength should not be compromised. Bruce and Dan have tested 30 year old bolts and they were just a hair below original specs. I'll bet the rust you are seeing is mainly the nut and washer.
Carville probably used carbon steel bolts on stainless hangers. The rust is likely only superficial (even though it looks bad).
Bruce and Clint went over stuff at the Monolith a couple years ago and didn't raise any red flags.
It also looks like the climb is well protected (cruxes right after the bolts) and the bolt spacing doesn't look far enough to take a whipper.
Let's wait and see if Gavin or Brad will chime in. Gavin is probably working and Brad is out climbing (not at Pinns).
-
I say glue ins and be done with it!
-
I say glue ins and be done with it!
Above my pay grade.
It's all yours brother!
-
I did some work on Lichen to Lead yesterday - first lead bolt and summit anchor.
Here is the first lead bolt that people have been using for years as a backup to the belay position for Tilting Terrace and all the surrounding climbs. From the outside it looks like a 5 piece bolt but there are no ridges on the bolt head (carbon bolts normally have 3 ridges oriented like spokes). Unscrew it and poof - the truth is revealed. It is a 3/8 drop in anchor. The bolt shaft is a 1/2 inch long with about 1/4 inch of that length actually screwed into the insert. The hanger was homemade angle iron that looked beefier than a Leeper. I removed one of these bolts off Osiris a few years ago. I've removed several others that were allen screws in similar inserts at various anchors. The inserts are virtually impossible to remove without making a mess of the rock so there is no re-using the hole. I'll have to go back to Lichen to Lead and apply some patch material to the insert (I forgot mine yesterday).
In the interim, there is a nice new replacement bolt with a Petzl hanger.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40875919903_f05d490a65_z.jpg)
-
It is a 3/8 drop in anchor. The bolt shaft is a 1/2 inch long with about 1/4 inch of that length actually screwed into the insert. The hanger was homemade angle iron that looked beefier than a Leeper.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/40875919903_f05d490a65_z.jpg)
MAN...my soul just died a little. Brad and I saw a couple doozies this past weekend. The highlight was two open cold shuts, each with a 5/8" split shaft button head directly into the shut. Maybe 3/4" into the hole. NO THANKS
-
Nice work, as usual.
Not worth its own thread, but I'd like to drop a few words about the small Lake Tahoe/I-80 corridor crags that Squiddo and I climbed on last Friday and Saturday. To say the least it could use a few days of careful and intelligent attention like you give Pinnacles.
By way of old bolts there that need replacement:
- A 5.10a crack that ends at two un-welded, extremely rusty coldshuts that are of 3/8 inch diameter rod stock. These are bolted to the rock with 1 1/4 inch long, 5/16 inch buttonhead bolts. So all of 7/8 of an inch of each bolt is in the rock.
- In two places, groupings of three 1/4 inch bolts as top anchors. In each case all the bolts used Leeper and/or thin SMC hangers (I backed up the one such anchor that we used with gear in a crack 10 feet behind the bolts).
- Several routes on which the runout, crux moves are protected by old and rusty 5/16 inch buttonheads. Funny that we used to see these as such an improvement over quarter inchers (that death from a broken one in the Owens River Gorge, combined with the really bad fall in Josh from one that pulled out 15 years ago kinda changed my mind on these).
Even worse though are some of the attempted reboltings that we saw:
- A rebolted top anchor that used gorgeous Fixe-looking all-modern stainless steel hardware. Neither bolt showed any threads though (so someone put them in too far). Worse, the replacer put both bolts at the same height while equipping one with a ring hanger and the other with chain to a ring (leaving the two rap rings about eight inches different in height!).
- An old top anchor of two quarter inch bolts that someone (maybe more than one) had worked on. The first rebolter left both quarter-inchers in and simply threw in a 3/8 inch carbon steel bolt between them. Then someone, presumably not liking carbon steel, put in a 3/8 inch stainless bolt six inches lower, still not removing either of the old bolts, and simply unscrewing the 3/8 inch carbon bolt while leaving the sleeves and hole in place (thus making a good argument against lazy dummies being allowed to own or even used a motorized drill).
To say the least, these people could use some J.C. lessons about workmanship.
-
And there's an example of great minds thinking alike....
-
MAN...my soul just died a little. Brad and I saw a couple doozies this past weekend. The highlight was two open cold shuts, each with a 5/8" split shaft button head directly into the shut. Maybe 3/4" into the hole. NO THANKS
Obviously Squiddo meant 5/16 inch, not 5/8 inch (he kept saying it wrong too, each time we talked about that type of bolt). Dude's getting old ;D
-
Obviously Squiddo meant 5/16 inch, not 5/8 inch (he kept saying it wrong too, each time we talked about that type of bolt). Dude's getting old ;D
And you kept correcting me. Also, you are still older.
Reminder to always bring my bolt kit out to the crags. Even a
Hand drill
-
Sounds pretty ghastly.
Glad I don't climb there.
Thanks for sharing.
-
Not worth its own thread, but I'd like to drop a few words about the small Lake Tahoe/I-80 corridor crags that Squiddo and I climbed on last Friday and Saturday. To say the least it could use a few days of careful and intelligent attention like you give Pinnacles.
I bet the developers were on a tight budget, may have been staying at the Ritz Carlton in Truckee.
-
Cross-posting from Quest for Mud (Special Edition) since this also pertains to rebolting.
Kat and I spent the day at Peace of Heaven on Wednesday.
The flies were awful.
The climb wasn't too bad and now it is completely rebolted.
Both of the lead bolts were in some nasty, crumbly recesses that made it especially difficult to get the tuning fork under the star dryvin nails. I had to do significant amounts of carving down and around both bolt locations to get the old stuff out, create proper surfaces for the replacements and allow the draws to hang correctly. The nail on the first lead bolt was under-driven but the hanger was tight and both nails were unusually difficult to extract (surprising given the lousy rock quality). It was a similar situation on the summit with the old, single-bolt anchor. I could write a book about all the things I have learned rebolting.
Here is a composite of photos showing in clockwise order the old first bolt (straight on), from the side (to show the protruding nail), the replacement bolt and the replacement anchor with chains. The second replacement lead bolt is not shown but is every bit as pretty as the first.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47979617638_74983edbb2_z.jpg)
-
Cross-posting and slightly modified from the Quest for Mud thread.
Kat and I finished the work at Crowley yesterday (started in December 2018).
All the old bolts were replaced just prior to the 2019 Closures.
Yesterday was spent removing the remaining old anchor bolts.
All the Crowley Towers bolted climbs now have replacement bolts (lead and anchor) and all the old bolts (save one old anchor bolt on Tower Three) have been removed (see the Rebolting Master List). Several of the old climbs have no protection. There are also some new routes out there - check out the Newly Established and Found Routes list.
Of particular interest was one of the old anchor bolts (the right bolt) on Tower One. That bolt was only 1 1/2 inches long and no crowbar was needed for removal. It was a star dryvin but the head on the nail did not overlap the sleeves. Not sure what kind of nail it is but definitely not the correct/stock item. The whole assembly came out after a few taps under it with a tuning fork. Look at the scrunched up lead sleeve on that gem (lower left). For those not familiar with star dryvins - the lead sleeve should be at the bottom of the sleeves and provides all the pull-out strength. It's a miracle this thing did not come loose.
Notice that the right bolt is the top bolt - so all the weight would have gone on it - and it has one of those lovely aluminum lever-out homemade tab hangers. The biner was a leaver that someone put on the lower bolt to keep the rope from getting trapped under the smashlink (Brad?). The picture on the right shows the size of the nail head nicely (it barely overlaps the sleeve edges). At least whoever constructed this anchor placed a second bolt. All the other anchors on the Towers were single bolts. Gotta love it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48770907223_6943a429e6_z.jpg)
-
nice work
-
Hardware looked okay.
-
nice work
Thanks.
Hardware looked okay.
Not exactly an unexpected response :lol: :out:
-
Cut off from the world today by PG&E.
But that is a different story...altogether...
I was on the west side yesterday and rebolted Sombrero - two 1 1/2 x 1/4 inch split shafts - the second bolt had the hanger levered over the edge of a lodestone (and a significant crack in the lodestone from placing the bolt in it).
Both of the nuts on the studs were barely screwed on (no threads showing - end of stud flush with top of nut). The nut on the second bolt was too flimsy to use the tuning fork to get it out (popped right off) and the threads were too damaged to use my puller tool (I tried that first). It's amazing it ever stayed on there. The rust must have been holding it. Both studs were in the rock less than an inch.
All good now.
Should be an interesting lead since the first bolt is too low and the second is too high (it was originally a two bolt, bolt ladder that went free). Reminds me of the Third Sister.
-
You have to where a sombrero to have a legit ascent.
-
JC should just where a sombrero all the time. If he climbs a lot of chimneys it will turn into a cowboy hat.
-
You have to where a sombrero to have a legit ascent.
Wear did you learn to speak ingles?
-
Over hear.
-
Low expectation
-
I should have stuck with crash pads being large sanitary napkins.
-
I should have stuck with crash pads being large sanitary napkins.
More like Depends.
-
The anchors on Wet Kiss are VERY loose. The anchor consist of three bolts. One in the middle (and higher than the other two) and two ASCA bolts on the left and right side of the middle bolt. The middle bolt is fine.
The two ASCA bolts (5 piece) are extremely loose. You can visibly see the bolt moving when you try to move the hanger around. I'm guessing they will tighten up, but I unfortunately did not have a wrench on me.
There is a lead bolt on the big pucker that is also not even finger tight (super loose). I can't recall if it was at the first or second bulge, but it should be obvious. It should be easy to tighten this up after dealing with the wet kiss anchor.
I am happy to go do this, but let me know if someone gets to it before I do.
-
I am happy to go do this, but let me know if someone gets to it before I do.
Whoa, love that route. Same here on the service.
-
The anchors on Wet Kiss are VERY loose. The anchor consist of three bolts. One in the middle (and higher than the other two) and two ASCA bolts on the left and right side of the middle bolt. The middle bolt is fine.
The two ASCA bolts (5 piece) are extremely loose. You can visibly see the bolt moving when you try to move the hanger around. I'm guessing they will tighten up, but I unfortunately did not have a wrench on me.
There is a lead bolt on the big pucker that is also not even finger tight (super loose). I can't recall if it was at the first or second bulge, but it should be obvious. It should be easy to tighten this up after dealing with the wet kiss anchor.
I am happy to go do this, but let me know if someone gets to it before I do.
Thanks for the heads up.
Those bolts should tighten up. I have plans to go down there for some more work on Discovery soon, so I'll let you know. Thanks for reporting that and I encourage you to buy a small adjustable wrench and put it on a biner - then make it standard to put it on your harness every time you climb anything with bolts. If anyone besides you is reading this (I know you know this), I want to warn folks that it is important not to overtighten stainless 5 piece bolts (first you have to be able to positively identify a stainless bolt).
Looks like you can drop in to that anchor from the top anchor on Trauma. There is also a single bolt belay on top for Portent's Right Finish. I replaced that a few years ago. Looks like it is heating up this week and then dropping back down for the weekend.
-
Just got home after spending the entire day at Discovery Wall working. I lost track of how many times I dropped in to check and tighten bolts on various routes. 6 or 7 times I think. I also worked on the rappel anchor above Swallow Crack. I'll report results and post some pics tomorrow - time for a shower and food!
-
You da man! ;D
-
Did you get to the Wet Kiss anchor? Just wanted to be sure so I can cross it off my list.
-
Did you get to the Wet Kiss anchor? Just wanted to be sure so I can cross it off my list.
You're a funny funny guy.
I was surprised that those anchor bolts took less than one turn each to tighten - I expected them to be much worse.
All lead bolts are tight too.
Big Pucker checked except for the top bolt - easy climbing there in comparison - plus I missed it on the way down not knowing the climb or realizing that bolt is hidden up and right as you move down and past the feature/rounded ridge that separates climbs on that part of the wall. You have to go to one side or the other depending on which route you're trying to get to.
I checked Plague too, since I had to rap further right one last time to get to the first bolt on Wet Kiss. Every bolt I checked needed a partial turn to get nice and tight. One of the crux bolts on Big Pucker turned probably a full turn and a half to get it tight.
I did some other work too on Stupendous Man, Entrance and the rappel anchor above Swallow Crack. I'll put details on the Master List some time today.
-
Woohoo! Nice work
-
Can you fix the bad bolt on Future Shock?
-
Can you fix the bad bolt on Future Shock?
Which bolt and what is wrong with it?
That is Tom Davis' climb.
He would probably want to know about it and do the work himself.
I can contact him with the info if you give me the details.
-
I think it is the third bolt. It is a bit loose.
-
I think it is the third bolt. It is a bit loose.
Maybe F4 will go out and tighten it and paint the hanger pink :yesnod: :lol:
-
I would tighten, but never paint a Davis hanger.
Mr Mud, deck yes I’d paint it!! Since he has gone silent on me.
Although I would might do it to get a laugh out of Tom were i still a regular there. The look on his deface when told...
-
Pink hangers are retrobolts only.
-
Still the lol of puzzlement on Toms face....”what route? And they painted it what color??”
-
Added some updates at Flatiron to the Master List today.
-
Here's food for thought: have we reached a point at Pinnacles yet in which half or more of the existing climbing bolts are stainless steel? Or even a point at which half or more of the bolts there are "modern" (defined as Rawl/Powers 3/8 inch carbon steel or better)?
-
I'm having thoughts about food.
-
More important who has the most accurate list?
-
More important who has the most accurate list?
Clint and Bruce keep really good notes and Fletcher sent me his info a few years ago.
I compiled all that into the Master List but it only shows what is not already listed in the book.
I'd have to go back through both of those lists climb by climb and make a Master List of everything, since a lot of the listings in the book don't reflect whether the whole climb was done or just the anchor. Some of them are listed as FoP(anchor) but others don't list specifics (just FoP) and quite a few of those are also just the anchor. There's a lot of stuff in the High Peaks where the anchor got replaced but the lead bolts didn't. At my current rate I'll never finish - not even close.
Even if I made that list, it still would not account for things people have done over the years and not reported.
Every once in a while I discover something that fits that definition but only as I do climbs I haven't done.
It's endless...
-
Maybe you could do it if you switched to shorties and worked late nights. :D
Are half the bolts stainless steel? I think modern but not stainless. Maybe 1/3 .
-
Our rebolters are certainly both free range and organic, just like dinner that is almost ready!
-
I want to revolt with 1/4
Replace the 3/8 to lighter and smaller 1/4.
That way they are not as unsightly as the larger bolts.
What do you think Clink?
-
1/4 inch SS glue-ins? Nope, as a builder, I want 3/4 inch SS replacements that will last 2 or 3 millennia.
-
I spent the entire day yesterday rebolting an old climb on North Finger (East Edge 5.7R). I climbed the Regular Route 5.5R to get up there :yikes: and was greeted shortly after arriving at the summit by the Pinnacles love birds (Condor 92 and 26). They landed on the South summit and sat there eyeballing me until 92 decided to try and come snuggle. I waved him off as he tried to land on the North summit (right next to me) and he landed about 15 feet below me (on the west side). I banged on the summit register(ammo box) with a wrench until he took off, followed immediately by 26. Now it was time to get to work. The wind was brisk yesterday and with a high temp of only 61 (much later in the day) I was chilly all day. There was very little sun.
I checked the North Summit anchor first and was disappointed to find that the newest replacement stainless anchor bolt is a spinner with a slightly loose hanger. The bolt would not tighten or loosen. The other bolt is a carbon steel 5 pc and it is nice and tight. The rappel is oriented to go down over the 5.7R and the rappel is 90 feet.
I dropped in to discover one of the worst anchors I have ever seen at Pinnacles. Both bolts were totally underdriven with severely floppy Leeper hangers, in lousy rock. I checked every nearby location for better rock with marginally mixed, undesirable results. I used my puller tool to remove the upper anchor bolt (after less than one full turn of the tool, it fell out). The lower anchor bolt is a star dryvin nail with no sleeve, sticking out about an inch. I did not have my crowbar to remove it. It can serve as a reminder and an example of how bad bolts can be.
This route is described as far back as the Roper guide (1960's).
Both Roper and Richards recommend a top belay and there is no mention of bolts.
Maybe Jim Beyer placed these bolts as one of his many booby traps (good name for the route).
Mid belay anchor bolts North Finger-East Edge 5.7R
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49460134213_bdb43bb02b_z.jpg)
This was one of those rebolting projects where you feel like you are cleaning up a mess someone made and you do the best you can. It also made me realize why it is so important to use long sleeve bolts. How would I rate the rock? On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd say 3, maybe 4 (being generous).
The new anchor is in the best rock I could find.
I dropped down and had a hard time finding the upper lead bolt. It was lower than I expected and hard to spot, since it was a bare quarter inch stud in a sea of lichen and moss. It too was hideously under-driven (why did they even bother?) and fell out after less than a turn. The first lead bolt was easier to find and the best quality (although oriented pointing slightly down and fell out after less than 2 turns). I reused both holes for the lead bolts. Every new bolt is torqued to spec.
Here are the old lead bolts (hangerless with no nuts) and a photo topo of the route.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49460611546_93a0f00a3a_z.jpg)
North Finger East Edge 5.7R
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49460134173_fc52dffd4d_z.jpg)
-
Gnarly!!! Those may be some of the worst bolts I have seen.
-
Wow, talk about a route that REALLY needed it! Good job.
-
You deserve the first lead of the route in its new condition.
-
You deserve the first lead of the route in its new condition.
Um...I would prefer to deserve something good :idea: :arf:
-
Recently a friend gave me a bunch of Fixe stainless steel, single-wedge 12 mm bolts that are about 3" long and Petzl 12 mm hangers. Fixe Hardware currently does not list the 12 mm bolts on their website, but they look similar to the 3/8" single-wedge bolts. Does anyone know what the recommended torque is for these Fixe 12 mm bolts? I am probably not intending to use them at Pinnacles, but I want to make sure I do not over torque them when I install them somewhere.
-
Recently a friend gave me a bunch of Fixe stainless steel, single-wedge 12 mm bolts that are about 3" long and Petzl 12 mm hangers. Fixe Hardware currently does not list the 12 mm bolts on their website, but they look similar to the 3/8" single-wedge bolts. Does anyone know what the recommended torque is for these Fixe 12 mm bolts? I am probably not intending to use them at Pinnacles, but I want to make sure I do not over torque them when I install them somewhere.
I'd go with the same torque as the Triplex. I think those are actually rated at 28 ft-lbs but 25 ft-lbs is plenty.
-
On Tuesday, December 1st, I replaced bolt 2 on The Smokestack - Swept Away 5.9*
The old 2nd bolt was a time bomb/accident waiting to happen. It was a 2 1/4 inch long wedge bolt that was bent by too much hammering into an underdrilled hole and the cone never engaged the clip. The only thing holding it in was the two little bumps on the sides of the clip. It was pointed down (no shear strength) and pulled out with disturbing ease.
The old bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d_zAbeJDQdN36FJ3LB2iDcwutgkhxkVCJvuUPqUrNQ6fCkD0lQKIZ55Ym4LRVLYRhi_t_JJPfiiM-HHIQU2e7aKYuesHbEzr3JEMvwusdw2QsUP3j0_xVdDS50A4ICgEZX_H7MIL-dbBSgC2JftTTU=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
You can see how bent it is and the lack of any clean metal on the cone = no engagement of the clip. Not to mention a wedge bolt with the cone engaged will not typically be pulled out without a serious fight.
The replacement bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cNX7SaTq2kAd8F8UPfMHRDGk0xofebobgmjtLhmA3O8A4EO8K15wTTbR8swa9ia-nhjNauXIn74hPhAhKQ2_ebCGiqtJSLq8Vv42rvTYSpg3s-3Y8lyQ5IzE7AFw_Vmcy77zLuLPmOb3KxHYRAnAOy=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
-
On Wednesday, December 2nd, I replaced the lead bolts on April Fools Route (Papa Bear).
This is an old, bold, runout route established by a climbing legend (Tom Higgins) in April 1976.
The old bolts were well placed in excellent rock and both produced a nice "pop" when I cranked down my puller tool.
Here are the old bolts (top bolt on the left - 2 1/2 x 3/8, bottom bolt on the right - 2 x 1/4). Both are split shafts with Leeper hangers.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dfzqdmQo99hiVsydp3uQBnEAhtyItZy6YF_V4e0FUzpIzRc8QQdU8kqvdYDOpF9ucv1L-Llj8wMBKrSLr_iRVmNqtgORHbUULBmYQ82UkhUygUlCaAvdTHL9ShbjbmDoXM_xo3qrv90ice29UgGLqf=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
and the beautiful replacements
bolt 1 - 30 feet up
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ccs9ArJu6W0K2zr0n9vbLRDzz80pWSeybd05Bkop1wQ1PfF-xYmUxKudJIJeXFF62E-mlJ1IV8k5rLd9EEOg-SSXy860KeXeeLz1_fDxY9CbVM3tDjDkPea_N9v1DP_9jbUPdcvymetSOLyXEoKWrm=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
bolt 2 - 15 feet above bolt 1
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3emKLA2nxvn9aawVNL1TrNR2qjniKbFbrHAO6_dmHuI7AIQYkQC52Ev8vUNW35lRDtlGtUyQnm3pWdNC5_FHBJGe--Nrh7Nmm0F3E0PhqK0U5mFsELDT_Fu2Vf29AAwunYn0Go7R_S5OcnlMoJk-ll6=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
The bolts are no longer hard to see (as described in the current guidebook) :thumbup: :biggrin: :ihih:
-
love the old bolt shots
-
love the old bolt shots
They are cool but I like the replacement bolt shots better :thumbup: :biggrin: :ihih:
-
On Tuesday, December 1st, I replaced bolt 2 on The Smokestack - Swept Away 5.9*
The old 2nd bolt was a time bomb/accident waiting to happen. It was a 2 1/4 inch long wedge bolt that was bent by too much hammering into an underdrilled hole and the cone never engaged the clip. The only thing holding it in was the two little bumps on the sides of the clip. It was pointed down (no shear strength) and pulled out with disturbing ease.
The old bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d_zAbeJDQdN36FJ3LB2iDcwutgkhxkVCJvuUPqUrNQ6fCkD0lQKIZ55Ym4LRVLYRhi_t_JJPfiiM-HHIQU2e7aKYuesHbEzr3JEMvwusdw2QsUP3j0_xVdDS50A4ICgEZX_H7MIL-dbBSgC2JftTTU=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
You can see how bent it is and the lack of any clean metal on the cone = no engagement of the clip. Not to mention a wedge bolt with the cone engaged will not typically be pulled out without a serious fight.
The replacement bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cNX7SaTq2kAd8F8UPfMHRDGk0xofebobgmjtLhmA3O8A4EO8K15wTTbR8swa9ia-nhjNauXIn74hPhAhKQ2_ebCGiqtJSLq8Vv42rvTYSpg3s-3Y8lyQ5IzE7AFw_Vmcy77zLuLPmOb3KxHYRAnAOy=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
I followed up John's rebolting and this post by contacting one of the first ascent party who put up Swept Away. I explained the concerns with the tree and the flake it grows behind. I told him that to me the solution was obvious - put in a bolt to serve as a protection point instead of the tree. I also asked him if he had time in the near future to look at the route.
He lives halfway across the country and won't have time to look at the route. He emailed back though:
"That said, I like my routes to be safe. No point in excessive risk. Especially with that rock quality. So feel free to add bolts to any of my routes to make them safe."
I was also interested in what he said about getting the bolts in in the first place:
"That lead was one of the scariest of my life. I don’t know how I managed to get both hands free to drill. I didn’t use hooks, didn’t know about that technique. Didn’t know much about anything!!
We were operating in a vacuum."
Pinnacles climbing has an incredible history.
I shared all of the above with John who thinks he can reinspect the route and eliminate the need to use the tree for protection. If anyone can do that safely it would be Mister J.C. himself.
This all seems like a very positive set of developments.
-
I was all packed and ready to go to the Flatiron for some rebolting right before the shit hit the fan last Spring.
Kat and I trekked up there this past week to get some of that work done.
I started with the mid anchor at the top of The Regular Route. I had a choice of either adding 3 foot lengths of chain to each side or relocating one of the bolts.
I chose the latter. The two existing bolts were about 2 1/2 feet apart - both with flat ring hangers, in okay but not great rock.
They were on a flat surface behind a significant edge. The rope pull was extremely difficult - unless you walked 50 feet out from the base of the formation. The existing bolts were carbon steel 5 piece with stainless hangers. I have a stash of Fixe carbon hangers, so I swapped the hanger on the right bolt and added a screwlink and a 9 link chain. I drilled a new hole for the ring hanger in excellent rock - to equalize the rig and get it over the edge. Here is the new configuration with an X in the spot where the old left bolt was placed. I patched that hole and another failed hole right next to it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cPp4sEl1ReHeaZF-XcqXClCxjv3wlLOurdzrkRRGoYLia_yqOeowMy39dQAgzKZSVAFCqLfSv9cR-A2Lgjs-3G-99vP7pAbcqlDAFxXZKFd55Avfxd4g-7lDdPiWLL-NGeGX0l7mzXIb_cBjgTwBpV=w1006-h566-no?authuser=0)
Next I dropped into the Regular Route and replaced the only remaining old bolt (the first one). I remember looking at this old bolt when I did my first ever lead climb on December 23rd, 2011. I didn't have a clue about bolts back then. I just saw that it was rusty and it made me wary. The old bolt is one of the strangest I've seen at Pinnacles. It was a split shaft with slots milled down the sides. The cut washer on it had little tabs that aligned it in the slots. It had one of those Italy hangers with red primer paint. Here is the old bolt and hanger (nut was barely flush with the stud).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dG9oTufsRq_n4v3hO9HdC-OFtdsouarXZO9MvbWAtOXtkI2X5tkCxOXYSMV3OXpYye2Z46TOpKSLljjrpF731w0yew922eRytcE6MI6L5QZ4UfTHZC36nsIcCXM7A9bVO3Rv8_NPRk7pHKNWBI5_Bp=w833-h624-no?authuser=0)
All the bolts on the route are good now. Here is the new bolt.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fAOMhEYUgpuuMR0FQpakn0H7IsGpuwDkfXlKMCoM3uqmUC9ea6doJ_o6GLExzoc-RwJs0dOVGfACyuMWQTvbWqhg2dc0y2TYyiUZDDjXzaTpHtkex-9zEwDyU5lm5CX8mvatzo6WANwPB7_tynfSw9=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
I had one bolt left so I replaced the first bolt on Lost Fortune. The old bolt was a split shaft with stainless SMC hanger, crooked bolt, improperly aligned hanger, cratered hole and minimally surfaced. This bolt came out really easily with the puller tool.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dIM9djKTY0cj2BJZMLsR2Ayi_9jiy0xG7lbd7KEP8PZNGrHkLkfTCEdAokm_RM-ymfRZy_s9nGJY9RTM1ULdTLiihUXONk-UN0fXpOEhBIhm0s852xRNeD9_Abm8hyb2fkRKMr5rB_WUBfpC1AZfyr=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
Same bolt with the hanger removed. Note how the threads end - indicating a split shaft. The bolt was barely in deep enough to allow proper tightening of the hanger.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eHCw4U2ismZNd1uEO-XqZb9LUFfGuCLUP-dFsBh_ciNLdhBQ0Oadzp-aTCscBM9ctK8M5yfAs3Xgmz5_Vr2vHuGWukOxvhMed2INDQGcc7EBvcQsg08l3UAVaGSsbq_dTYVEXW2gm8QgMIJJgGznP1=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
and the replacement
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3euCsDSTDC5vpLb05xMyKSIhn8ITVf8iU-78CzWv_30CZU_vC59VX8MxHtZajWJ4MkbwflYwnGPayOiAUjD93BeL5L7qcjNNcdQ2oXw7exUAUrzu1QvW1t2HlLgAbHpB9b3v8GHamRzPu4hLU4gReQ1=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
More later today...
-
...I remember looking at this old bolt when I did my first ever lead climb on December 23rd, 2011. I didn't have a clue about bolts back then. I just saw that it was rusty and it made me wary....
Two things:
- God you're old;
- You knew a lot back then without even knowing what you knew. Most new climbers just clip whatever's there and give it no further thought (correct me if I'm wrong?).
-
Brad, that was a positive response.
Cool they would say to add bolts to make safe.
Was this the same person whom also used to epoxy his bolts?
-
I mentioned this to JC in the parking lot, but leaving here. There are several bolts on White Tail that are in a bizarre, hangerless state. In a couple cases the bolt is sticking out 1", but the sleeve still seems flush. Someone seems to have plans for these? I think this affects both Peon's Delight and Mission Impossible.
-
I mentioned this to JC in the parking lot, but leaving here. There are several bolts on White Tail that are in a bizarre, hangerless state. In a couple cases the bolt is sticking out 1", but the sleeve still seems flush. Someone seems to have plans for these? I think this affects both Peon's Delight and Mission Impossible.
thanks. I remember when those were put up and climbing one of the routes and noting studs. Interesting, any if they are old or new?
-
Correct on the routes. That would be cool to upgrade to hangers.
Surprised no one ever did.
Would they qualify for ACSA hangers? New bolts even better.
-
Correct on the routes. That would be cool to upgrade to hangers.
Surprised no one ever did.
Would they qualify for ACSA hangers? New bolts even better.
Coastanoan and Mission Impossible used to have Doug's homemade hangers....made in his garage. And not exactly art like some others i have seen. Workable. Perhaps someone wanted the keepsakes....
-
I would do it given the replacement hardware.
Mulling for a late spring project?
-
I would do it given the replacement hardware.
Mulling for a late spring project?
Spring....why wait. Eyes on the prize
-
Was not sure if the route is too cold in winter.
-
I followed up John's rebolting and this post by contacting one of the first ascent party who put up Swept Away. I explained the concerns with the tree and the flake it grows behind. I told him that to me the solution was obvious - put in a bolt to serve as a protection point instead of the tree. I also asked him if he had time in the near future to look at the route.
He lives halfway across the country and won't have time to look at the route. He emailed back though:
"That said, I like my routes to be safe. No point in excessive risk. Especially with that rock quality. So feel free to add bolts to any of my routes to make them safe."
I shared all of the above with John who thinks he can reinspect the route and eliminate the need to use the tree for protection. If anyone can do that safely it would be Mister J.C. himself.
This all seems like a very positive set of developments.
Thanks for doing that Brad.
I plan on getting back out there soon to get the work done.
I'll follow up on here when it's done.
-
Brad, that was a positive response.
Cool they would say to add bolts to make safe.
Was this the same person whom also used to epoxy his bolts?
Bruce said Holmgren used to epoxy his star dryvins but I haven't found any that way to date.
Smokestack - Swept Away isn't a Holmgren Route.
-
thanks. I remember when those were put up and climbing one of the routes and noting studs. Interesting, any if they are old or new?
Runout sent me a pic of one bolt. It's a carbon steel 5 piece with no rust.
I have a handful of carbon steel hangers that I could use to refurbish stuff on Whitetail.
The guide book shows 3 lead bolts and one, two-bolt anchor that need hangers.
I've been meaning to get out there - just haven't done it yet.
I'll keep that in the back of what's left of my mind as a training ground - since I obviously need the practice.
Mission Impossible sounds really good for a pump. I'll get out there and check it out. I'll take a handful of washers in case the original hangers were those thick ones that Richards used to install.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e11wWDdPncPIKU53bqja109BcE4-tdNWxpbtvht4KGiu1LTj8gxa_4Cn-QsyZCbCu0XHypMVaCCEfYd_QFnW9bADCV6nYXZWl27262RXGVBmS-WRnN_eh01KpvCw8W1lkpcbXjifQetv8NP9hhlbS1=w473-h355-no?authuser=0)
-
On Wednesday, Kat and I returned to The Flatiron so I could finish the rebolting work there.
I climbed a new version of the Regular Route (same one I did the day before) and went to work on Burtons Below.
When I climbed Burtons, I noticed that bolts 4 and 5 had SMC death hangers and bolt 6 had a Leeper hanger.
Bolts 5 and 6 are really close together and have a nice stance below them - so I worked on those first. someone had left screwlinks on both bolts.
I removed and inspected bolt 5 (a short 5 pc carbon steel bolt) and then put a shiny stainless SMC hanger on it (one I retrieved from Lost Fortune's first bolt the day before).
Old death hanger on bolt 5 with a heavy schmear of silicone
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eA78HLtoREKBAnW2sci2iTRkFu-70fKSvPcKgl0PoY108BcWS6z4WNwAZ38PovtGIycRVCtNCnCJqoIt2zm8tOBcmm033cj-t28iy3wv6VhvMn3TBEF8gEbIkD3BDL9pQojOFHJJVH5Vz1hj0EI4Kz=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
bolt 5's internal bolt with the "new" hanger
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dybdmA-dajdgaFOhiMoG7tvb6SiSYKERHxZhTcpgeJtDn_0aUlTz57dVOmNIIB4gyUIhrmn8DLrserZViJTcjDtAC-lMQHaSAT7eWtI8wU4DvXUV0Z13SnyiwZcqUjP5FYeB07qNO3oUubw-tzkjtD=w1006-h622-no?authuser=0)
bolt 5 after a little surfacing to make it flush with the shiny "new" stainless SMC hanger
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fz_oK3uvmfhpFKlBORNMB7Q3E3Q9oTvBFCm4oauANwp2vGjUitBybPT0PaO6eNpF4TyC4HT7gEwxWuzLAIEt1SPRardqcS02rFNHJ7tWTVIscI23dJ5TDfnVrMPiIh8bwIX1kwbkBCxlYcnLcpXrTP=w444-h624-no?authuser=0)
I then proceeded to remove what I initially thought was a split shaft (bolt 6). It turned out to be a 3 3/4 inch wedge bolt and only half the clip came out with the bolt shaft. I was surprised that it even came out. I wouldn't normally use my puller tool on a wedge bolt for fear of breaking the tool.
Old bolt 6 with the hanger removed. Note threads continue into the hole meaning this could be a long split shaft or several other types of bolt (wedge? set bolt? damnit!). The letter stamped on the end was a tip-off. I haven't ever seen that mark on a split shaft (normally blank). The rule is go easy when turning the wrench on the puller tool.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fFG_b_jXIm4LQEVFGM_z3sTtW3n59WNEDQBy_60HuQyM9oycaC5rYYezxM24K3CzuOncRstVSru4Bf8O5PK4JRJ__cwlI-xbn8sFgORtdQK0M4wrFeVBlE2TA8zXLFbMijBTAqmcL2DclUYNXV5cpN=w753-h624-no?authuser=0)
In case you're curious about the puller tool.
Large washer and coupler nut go on first
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eHNMatxe7FuW0XFsZcJRHPVfhdhENhp01ZNXMHuxvJmUgnbnBtmI9vLaqs2Skal0dOvt-_vTqpnl6GimQG_B7EYUDAfL_-1mVKtbiGpT1UKi9139uWqmbhgBNxLWcjLSNVuYvPi-uKw3ItYXxMjWfR=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
Then the puller tool is screwed into place
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cwn0MvQTBkswVViiC9YHmJOa_5NNtvzZTRAQqk0tZnNl3BXJnSJYaJuyEJ8xAHrNVEm4k6HFHGDh90U_-ilnKWerK_wCW_r-D6OtJM_8SdnyHYzggR-p7C62CsFba6Yo51IvviTd1HofA7OAJ-5U-J=w641-h624-no?authuser=0)
Tighten down the big nut on the puller shaft which draws it up the square tube and pulls the bolt out
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ddUukKQHVWXui_NM3pAzcUwNPO3QJWuhox6MVRCfTlWj89ns0293LQ0WCjPJDp7mUHEdGM4od-0_diIS8c-0cgfzQzn_Pmw-QQMQduYOM8co9_CL3ncyfQ9Cc3yaSaXVq_oZ0pHnOmuGRBnxs6LhFM=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
the old bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dXZX835SeSOE-ATS7NNUnKEqsTmjnIyCHRj_qqdOuxk2wHaA6wz6CW18gJy1-WoCUf9hXCLndT-ZZs1xtXNEBckXvCAh_YE1MXCH-WUzKV4x90JsCn71wadCFMwDESV2JR9Qgnq6eCqH_H46HqIUsc=w740-h624-no?authuser=0)
and the replacement bolt installed and torqued
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fkKRum1W92KVKuF0z-p0_AwVEVDo6eWLZSiQIH1kN8nhDAL-d9yuGWSaGT5Z1AZQzTo59YmiCebCo4ttjAwgJqI4d9IQKM2RZWQBIWsREBnoUtRsFGiiX9hECE5eHfXw7E1zdwhvMTAJ6QZRFuT8be=w468-h624-no?authuser=0)
When I led Burtons I nearly missed the 4th bolt because it had a bunch of silicone smeared on it, was a somewhat patina'ed SMC death hanger and had been spray painted after it was installed with brick red primer (not a criticism - merely an observation).
It is also quite a bit left of what I perceived as the natural line - so I wasn't looking in the right place
Check this out - where the heck is it? (nearly invisible from any distance)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eLJuPmXCTAdqBKpNjNsHA9g5MMBzWPQrY59z-5vPG1C2TC0IArYxgGNlKVAHepi7ATTm4EZ3cXkRx0lY_NLxg7M-L7-uuFZSuiYdhUhsd3xwtYznAp9GEGzJj24kH24oz9X6xM3UdJ5aGphxsxhJZs=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
closeup
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f_VWrVpfT3uRsr_y61f2-Bxd-gdxAoYzr65VZz5C-jJ7bi-xEWT_HB4G37hFrPCLWl2Bv9oWYySdTcedmBEvmxE0RZlS0-kgHvWxZa2qTt24pPSozUC6nxifkV_c-z84_9nuPLKM6aP8Qx4sDnlR6T=w755-h624-no?authuser=0)
and the new, shiny carbon steel Fixe hanger after a little surfacing (very visible now)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cgOIttxorssN81DJt3HXem20o1FjaVUDfn1t-_s44zZofLyG50Qvergy2Js2V79y5HT9VBo0ExDpZusXdCaPLPII6S25srsS_SevPmUjZ0Zat9jsh0LoNSJXSDu6fxpd0FQjWhEUCkJ1JpG_gNt5Ji=w634-h624-no?authuser=0)
That was it for Burtons. With Brad's previous work - it is in primo shape now.
I switched over to Lost Fortune and replaced the remaining two lead bolts on that. Both old bolts were split shafts that needed a lot of surfacing after I extracted the old bolts and drilled the original holes deeper. The top/3rd bolt came out easily but the second bolt was unusually hard to extract. They are all in fine shape now. The only climb on Flatiron that has not been rebolted is Silent Running. It is 4 star dryvins with SMC stainless hangers. The other two existing routes (Angle Iron and Mungy Bulgy) both have modern hardware.
-
Runout sent me a pic of one bolt. It's a carbon steel 5 piece with no rust.
I have a handful of carbon steel hangers that I could use to refurbish stuff on Whitetail.
The guide book shows 3 lead bolts and one, two-bolt anchor that need hangers.
I've been meaning to get out there - just haven't done it yet.
I'll keep that in the back of what's left of my mind as a training ground - since I obviously need the practice.
Mission Impossible sounds really good for a pump. I'll get out there and check it out. I'll take a handful of washers in case the original hangers were those thick ones that Richards used to install.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e11wWDdPncPIKU53bqja109BcE4-tdNWxpbtvht4KGiu1LTj8gxa_4Cn-QsyZCbCu0XHypMVaCCEfYd_QFnW9bADCV6nYXZWl27262RXGVBmS-WRnN_eh01KpvCw8W1lkpcbXjifQetv8NP9hhlbS1=w473-h355-no?authuser=0)
Yep those are Doug Martin homemade hanger specials!!
-
J.C., your whole last post (and the first part of the same story) discuss nothing but "work." Literally.
And yet I felt like they were, together, a great trip report.
Perhaps seeing your work done to a few bolts on a route I put up 27 years ago made it even more interesting! It didn't look like that super-camouflaged bolt was very rusty. Did our silicon seal keep it from rusting or was it the position on a section of rock that probably dries fast? Any thoughts?
-
^^^
The simple answer is both of those factors probably helped slow oxidation.
Thoughts?
The silicone seemed to be doing a good job.
It had excellent adhesion to the rock and the steel.
The downside would be any eventual void/opening could let water in and hold it longer (which didn't seem to be happening here).
You can see how good the internal bolt looked and the other one was essentially the same.
The rustoleum primer likely had an effect as well.
I also think that rock gets a good proportion of sun compared to the other faces.
The formation dries fast with no soil on top to hold the water.
Rust is mainly the result of chemical weathering (oxidation) and the main catalysts are heat + water.
Pinns typically has one or the other - but not both - which keeps rates of weathering low. :sleep:
The black streaks are an exception/the worst - where biological activity adds an extra component to the mix.
I used to tell my students (when we did our brief chemistry section) that oxygen is just dying to react/combine with something.
That is why metal rusts, food spoils and fire burns.
California in general has fairly low rates of chemical weathering with one main exception - the coastal areas.
Salty moisture along the coast speeds oxidation like crazy (even in the absence of heat).
A little surface rust isn't necessarily a bad thing (we're just conditioned to think it looks bad).
The oxidative coating is in a more stable state chemically and can act as a protective coating to the underlying metal.
Rust never sleeps. :arf:
-
Hey squiddo, that hanger looks familiar, like ones that were on foothill wall.
There was a lead route with those hangers.
Good memories.
-
Was it really the official death hanger? The super thin ones? I can’t imagine BB using visually suspect hangers. But back then we didn’t have the awareness we do now.
-
Right Mungie, they used what could be fund or made. Jim told me that it was hard to get bolts, he his lac of placing many.
Crazy ho times have change!
I am still befuddled on who would carry sprays pant up the high peaks.
Camouflaging bolts would be an odd quest after JC replaces.....
-
Was it really the official death hanger? The super thin ones? I can’t imagine BB using visually suspect hangers. But back then we didn’t have the awareness we do now.
And there it is.
Yes. Let your imagination run wild. :lol:
Even though I no longer need it - I still carry my drilled quarter on my wrench cord to confirm.
Here's a death hanger, a stainless SMC and my drilled quarter.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dDHlwVbXIUN_KVm6xylT3q9LXyfSGCGfibtZup0IKmZ-HmSYOLv5xo48IdZuXdRZToitnGZKvHy3Z0HaLuVHPBNBDpF4H38ySCSVX7t0B4w9H9UHtY8J66_IyhE6wojBePg6ow3iy2VZA9eLqLL5DT=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
and the quarter_hanger comparison
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dQhS8Ij0V9h18vztI1Ts_U3xuRuTxfx50918SnYbYWtxP9okhtuNfLY_0GFlusEfKuQjS9JWL_2b7o-ySOmge10hH4oLOpSWgfH__5pEuyehXq5y4jP_WZn4nlYcWvMoD_KG47BpCzqIN8Hd1H_Ycv=w833-h624-no?authuser=0)
-
And there it is.
Yes. Let your imagination run wild. :lol:
Even though I no longer need it - I still carry my drilled quarter on my wrench cord to confirm.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dDHlwVbXIUN_KVm6xylT3q9LXyfSGCGfibtZup0IKmZ-HmSYOLv5xo48IdZuXdRZToitnGZKvHy3Z0HaLuVHPBNBDpF4H38ySCSVX7t0B4w9H9UHtY8J66_IyhE6wojBePg6ow3iy2VZA9eLqLL5DT=w832-h624-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dQhS8Ij0V9h18vztI1Ts_U3xuRuTxfx50918SnYbYWtxP9okhtuNfLY_0GFlusEfKuQjS9JWL_2b7o-ySOmge10hH4oLOpSWgfH__5pEuyehXq5y4jP_WZn4nlYcWvMoD_KG47BpCzqIN8Hd1H_Ycv=w833-h624-no?authuser=0)
Wow John...no bueno for sure. Things weigh like 1/3 a fixe I bet!
-
Camouflaging bolts would be an odd quest after JC replaces.....
Nail polish works well and you can get it in flat gray, tan, black. Small bottle, easy to carry and apply after installation.
Easy to spray paint in advance too.
Oil based paint doesn't have great adhesion to stainless but it seems to hold up pretty well - scroll back a bit and look at the red primer on the Italy hanger on the Regular Route.
I've sprayed a few hanger/bolt combos when I know I want to disguise but the stainless hardware develops a protective patina that reduces shine and helps it blend - especially with gray rock. I don't typically find camo is necessary unless I know the bolts can easily be seen from hiking trails.
Not a big fan of searching for disguised bolts in a sea of lichen and moss.
I thought I would never find the last lead bolt on Embraceable You and it wasn't even camo'ed.
-
It's another rainy day here along the coast and a dismal weekend at Pinns. Even though the rain gauge hasn't started tipping there yet the forecast for today is: Showers likely, mainly before 4pm. Cloudy, with a high near 56. South wind 9 to 16 mph, with gusts as high as 22 mph. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts between a tenth and quarter of an inch possible.
I got out a bunch of hangers and my calipers just out of curiosity and to stave off the boredom.
My calipers are English calibrated (to 64ths of an inch) so no metrics here. As a result, I will list/compare all the hangers in my stock and my rebolting pile of old junk in terms of 32nds of an inch. I was a little surprised to see that Leepers are just slightly thinner than SMC death hangers and a quarter is slightly thinner than that - even though all three appear very similar in thickness to the naked eye.
circulated quarter = 2.25/32
Leeper hanger = 2.75/32
SMC Death hanger = 3/32
SMC stainless hanger = 4/32
Italy hanger = 4/32
Metolius hanger = 5/32
Fixe hanger = 5/32
clink's skull = ????? :arf:
-
All perfectly fine.
I always liked the Kong Bonnati ones.
Time to hit the gym.....home gym
-
J.C., your whole last post (and the first part of the same story) discuss nothing but "work." Literally.
And yet I felt like they were, together, a great trip report.
Perhaps seeing your work done to a few bolts on a route I put up 27 years ago made it even more interesting!
You're right - it was all work but I'd been planning to do it since I led Burtons (after your work on it) and Lost Fortune.
It was good to get that anchor in better shape and also to replace that last remaining lead bolt on the Regular Route.
I figured you'd already put a lot of work into Burtons and are super busy with your guidebook work - plus I knew you didn't have the puller tool to get that 6th bolt taken care of - plus I was already going to be working on the other routes.
It felt good to get it all done.
I need to take a crowbar and tuning forks up and at least get the first bolt on Silent Running replaced. The hangers on that route are okay but the first bolt's hanger is loose and the crux is between 1 and 2.
I still haven't tried to free the bolt ladder or the 4th class first pitch of the Original Route.
-
Is this retirement?
-
Is this retirement?
Doesn't really feel like it - too much like skilled labor.
I may finish the box of ASCA bolts I have now and retire from rebolting so I can climb more.
-
Well save a few to clean up mission impossible...
-
Well save a few to clean up mission impossible...
Impossible sir...they're in Johnson's underwear ::) :P
-
That's the one. Love them pics.
-
Your request for retirement has been denied.
retire from rebolting
-
Your request for retirement has been denied.
Yes. And with prejudice.
Keep up the fantastic work.
-
Your request for retirement has been denied.
Yes. And with prejudice.
Keep up the fantastic work.
I'm passing the baton (and the puller tool) to you two :yesnod: :frown2: :idea:
-
I did a little rebolting housekeeping today.
One problem with the puller tool is that no matter what you do (add a washer to create a surface, try to hold it as it's tightened down), the surface of the rock or the angle of the old bolt is never square and extracting the bolt inevitably deforms the end of the square tube.
Trimming off the end becomes necessary, followed by a little grinding to get it square again (I don't have any way to miter a metal cut).
The rub is that every time it gets too deformed to operate properly - it gets trimmed a little and shortened and eventually I'll have to replace the square tube. This last trim left me with about 5 inches of pulling capacity (insert joke here).
Here's the seriously deformed piece I trimmed off.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ftWtwjbKy6KVGlQqDr11Oz3OJ1c4wH61ox07xTgXaCNivuDaS8MuOEYKL0YELoHW2emIFzvZvzT4ABU-L7VAIliXYRIRb_tBAwFPxO9zGaIHh7EwKVdzNFp7aafEMueH-TrydpTxBZrBTt6RqVASC7=w820-h615-no?authuser=0)
I thought I might be able to reuse the screwlinks that were left on Burtons bolts 5 and 6. I couldn't get them loose with a wrench, so I put them in a vise and with full size vise grip pliers and a cheater bar more than 2 feet long I could barely move the coupler nuts.
Both of the screwlinks were rated Petzl maillons. They must have been on those bolts for quite some time. If they had been on anchor chains - the only way they were coming off was with a hacksaw. That would suck since I don't carry one and don't plan to start! This is an excellent reason to use pipe tape on screwlink threads (either that or carry and apply anti-seize compound).
Heads up for installing any chains that will eventually have to be replaced :yesnod:
I nominate F4 to go around to all the new routes and apply anti-seize compound to all screwlink threads. :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin:
-
Urinating helps, right?
-
Try putting a propane torch to the quick links.
Might wanna try a thicker wall square tube for the puller tool.
-
Try putting a propane torch to the quick links.
Might wanna try a thicker wall square tube for the puller tool.
Good suggestions.
That first one sounds like it might be the hot ticket.
I measured the tubing and was surprised to see it's only 3/64ths thick.
A 4 foot length of 1/8 thick is only about 15 or 20 bucks - that would keep me operating longer than I want to.
I imagine the guy that made this tool chose the thinner gauge to save weight - it is already heavy equipment in terms of rebolting.
Retirement from rebolting is sounding better and better.
-
Try putting a propane torch to the quick links.
"Rock climber causes brush fire, burns down all of Pinnacles... film at 11:00!"
-
Try putting a propane torch to the quick links.
"Rock climber causes brush fire, burns down all of Pinnacles... film at 11:00!"
I know you're just trying to be funny but...
Just so people don't get the wrong idea - I would NEVER carry a blowtorch to the crags.
No big wrenches or breaker bars either.
Hacksaw would be easier and lighter.
-
I know you're just trying to be funny but...
Just so people don't get the wrong idea - I would NEVER carry a blowtorch to the crags.
Of course not. But there are some people out there who've done stranger things.
-
^^^
Brings to mind that fire ring with lots of ashes and charred wood that we broke up near Pipsqueak Pinnacle a few P.C.A.D.s ago.
-
Rock climber causes brush fire, burns down all of Pinnacles... film at 11:00!
Sounded to me like John had the quick links at home. He was talking about putting them in a vise. We know John would definitely not take a vise to the crags. A few years ago....maybe.
-
Sounded to me like John had the quick links at home. He was talking about putting them in a vise. We know John would definitely not take a vise to the crags. A few years ago....maybe.
That was never one of my vices.
Maybe we should carry in an anvil and bolt it to the Anvil...
or put a hatchet and a nail puller on the Hatchet?
A hooka on Pipeloads to Pluto perhaps?
-
^^^
And Axe Pinnacle? That one is already set up properly, isn't it?
-
How bout the unmentionable?
-
How bout the unmentionable?
Great minds think alike.
-
Last Wednesday Kat and I headed up to the High Peaks to get some rebolting done before the closures kicked in (today).
I was originally thinking Papa Bear's Regular Route but changed my mind and we went to Little Dome near H&L to work on Got You.
I'd led this climb years ago and knew the two lead bolts were star dryvins on Leepers.
When I dropped in to start the work, I was surprised to find that they were stars but were 1/4 inch versions (not the "normal" 3/8).
The top lead bolt had the sleeves under the hanger (whoops!). I was shocked by how small these things are. The nail is 3/16 x 1 1/4.
Embedment with the hanger and sleeves is a mere 1 1/8.
The old bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ejFCrIYshGzz9RwwVvyV5YbqXbve7VXKfi9jdAE852yL-L9--BTEjXCOxUpoMK0HLMt2oMBZYmhUgjFJ2cBjl5DlidSdBrnVMf5Ew3lI_v7N-Vr0ULyOE6RHwZv5kV083dUOicB_zRJDCyaEgB3UA5=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
The new bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3f4Eqs-2A2vEAsiYp-FiiFAPUeWhIGSSfF0QmpN15ax3wd9-us4Kv8gg5zEBbak6_2ZN3l-kk973x2BVRPK8UcdP9chTYB1l8iqa6EG3m2ihqKGv1sruoeyDDNKyGnMQ9xpjmZKJW0-iA3U1TiNMs9Y=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
The 1st bolt was in some chunky, brittle rock. A couple light taps of the tuning fork caused some big chunks to break out from underneath the hanger and the bolt nearly fell out. A couple more light taps with my modified slotted chisel and the whole thing popped out.
The old bolt with surrounding chunky rock. You can see boundaries around the chunks where they are ready to pop out.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eM8i1Kx2bg1IfjAdnKZdZYxoAiXY2cnkfuKjWf3LHoV3KtKJQ0esI8FvlqcKhNUOTsVOpKXWHUqFgWZBX7ieIHpuCJdYq8oxHkcuc4Gv-zEa_BhaUfMMaW4ygTwOvU7kjyMFAkH4gunXORz6e77enx=w813-h609-no?authuser=0)
The new bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cYPBUbqwD_zKhytG-zhLNWbiL4GSU9A3L3erlS9VDM5VomoAjRF3fiaIP68J9OAJlw1n59bdOqQl-X2-N5Olz1DM3mL-tgqaXX7wxTS-MTRq1HsAkySTw5vVbOIkzO1gZEDJjwQOeFeA039_zJEeH-=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
I was able to drill out both original holes and carefully carved down the surfaces to get the hangers on stable substrate.
Here is a shot of the two old bolts with a new bolt for comparison. Note the left bolt is completely intact.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dJV_09wDrbXi6-Gx5pts_jKfm3JAzjf4tiiIEKvL8EWUSx_3W5JXpYAiRsP3tw4VREbZlNSUG-Z3zOqCgWJ6yWZvFTrchmPHPQ-7jccVyF7BqbMQtsic_FHlGgCygSgaxn5GVcHRyjnmYR6nuE9D3Z=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
1/4 inch and 3/8 inch star dryvin pieces for comparison (I dug the 3/8 inch pieces out of my old hardware collection).
You can't appreciate how tiny the 1/4 inch pieces are until you hold them in your hand.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fTGXlJXh4Zss-l3fvJ3ZlsV1Rvm7APDIG5tSMWrbwW40cjyKytDEKOS4ogz64D6qcQkDyiEhAX7wRsJte4FHbh8KmynuHENh1t9tVZmOumVQl-iN-ZrNxFVpqrCO-2hiHny8Nmg8xCAyOTwNfWxuIa=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
2nd day of service 2021
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3c_8q4G7kqeI0EiQT2Y8js-2bGaEP6uIhozyN_2bqqZIJMLybv2NpZncehv8YAE4M-ldfvfXpwKMAjikIcWSETOPekiL_omf_Auom2xSV9_okF-X6y9cbb0S-8_3Nl_5_Bqaj_OPease5L8qUbrMlja=w457-h609-no?authuser=0)
-
On Thursday last week Kat and I returned to the High Peaks for some more rebolting. I had replaced the anchor on Tuff Dome on New Year's Day and on that same day, I inspected Aliens Ate My Buick and Adagio as I rappelled. Both climbs needed some work. The top 2 bolts on Adagio are 5 pc bolts on modern hangers but the remaining 4 bolts (including the crux bolt) are all stud bolts with the first 3 on SMC Death hangers. All the bolts on Aliens Ate My Buick were stud bolts (presumably split shafts) with SMC Death hangers on the first two. I decided to make Aliens Ate My Buick the priority. The work went swimmingly for the first 3 bolts (5, 4, and 3). I was able to extract the old studs with my puller tool and reuse the holes. The top bolt was a long split shaft (3 inch), bolt 4 was a regular length split shaft (2 1/2) and the 3rd/crux bolt was a garbage wedge bolt (2 3/4) in not so great rock. It was pointing slightly down (toward the ground) and pulled out with disturbing ease (I shouldn't be able to pull a wedge bolt with my tool). I didn't realize it was a wedge until it came out. I recognized something important afterwards, while inspecting the bolt characteristics. Both wedge bolts that came off the route had threads right up to the end of the shaft. The three split shafts have a small unthreaded portion at the tip of the bolt. I didn't notice this important difference while hanging on the climb all day. With a 5 bolt "run" I was intensely focused on moving efficiently and getting the work done before I pooped out. This important visual will help me with better recognition in the future. The other distinguishing feature of some wedges is a letter stamped into the end of the bolt to indicate length. Unfortunately, not all wedge bolts have this and there are also set bolts that look like wedges but aren't - arghhhh!
Here is a picture of all the old bolts (#1 to 5 from left to right). Note the difference in the stud ends.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fRKIYSCL03w9Ktm7d7pD2-YN_-GC7m2sVuCGaOlVV3nLTgiWfv3fF1avtXkTw4RY_cTsBwFJMqDh5AmR5kf-ja-GsH8yHnta_WHy99v0Vsnp_6gm0g8suwoTR595JrYO9gkn-im0G9NN1ilOU2PHUF=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
Here is the new crux bolt
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fbg0P4HkqhHf-wSKUpsDJZD8Yw23O_Pzgat7fZ673bgBg9lQL8A2L9JhugtzZkdBGEKfdJxHDukJPb2umBV3GynlGvwzbJNXlp7ZzygHEvh9X5J27ieJcdSytpEvqqIfwk1UxPVcKGxABueyaAIbtL=w457-h609-no?authuser=0)
When I got down to bolt 2, I knew the situation was not good. The bolt was severely crooked and the surface was extremely irregular.
The surface disintegrated when the bolt pulled out and the hole was so crooked that reusing the hole was hopeless.
Here is the old bolt. Crooked in the up/down and extremely crooked side-to-side.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d-m9UYz-gGClE6M4fiXpTs3S37wDz5B_iKIaVTa9HddhXZpgNPaVR1l6s9TTdUqsm_--3hkN1VBMqsPh_kxRvogIN2qnA-XyjUoBVClHY5YsyURmoV_JmsqeuAzb6SL8dSTJZnvX66H9YtqAwhErOw=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
The first bolt was a long wedge (3/8 x 3 5/8) - see picture above. I wondered why it was so resistant to being pulled out. When it finally did come out, I wondered where the sleeve was. Of course it was still in the hole and even with a pick tool, I could not budge it. I was not happy, since reusing that hole would have been a thing of beauty. Such is the nature of rebolting.
Old bolt 1 - a bit crooked and with a Death hanger. Strangely, it had a washer under the hanger. The difference in the end of the stud is fairly subtle. I will be watching more carefully for this in the future.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fuPIaL_M0dvkaDsDrHCdiEQtQPXTo5DrZy2ZxwglnfHJC3ZX_30A4P9Lr8lZtIp6Nt3Y8Pa_Z8SF6EpbxcY-zOBiM2TzLDgkyAclcqOVz1zyKPB3SDeWbja3XmblST84YdLvW8KTcfRk2jkVzwrhAq=w457-h609-no?authuser=0)
I have to remember to take aiders when rebolting steep climbs so I have a place to stand.
I tied loops in the rope to stand in and get some relief around bolt 3 - after my feet had already fallen asleep repeatedly.
Hanging around on the rebolt of Aliens Ate My Buick. Day 3 of service 2021. Why do I do this? Endeavor to persevere...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ddfY8YVkLgXSWEJnHKxGeGoNQ7I3T9rtTlRPrHPT0Fa8xY-7X4RNJT1mI-FTyZNfkFDgZhz1KUNS-JHnWGGAbZoJE9DbsJP_F9OzXzUOUeeIeRZvfc1inU8p0E1gfqAdEVKYvXqP-JK79rvx0L_kAP=w457-h609-no?authuser=0)
I heard the Dawsons led this climb on Saturday. I'll put Adagio as first priority when the closures lift.
-
I heard the Dawsons led this climb on Saturday. I'll put Adagio as first priority when the closures lift.
They did and they LOVED the new bolts. I told them that it was your work (it didn't surprise them).
-
Very nice! That route was a prime candidate.
-
Glad to see the tree branch has not grown up against the route.
Looks like it’s been deterred.
New bolts are nice.
-
They did and they LOVED the new bolts. I told them that it was your work (it didn't surprise them).
The drill dust and the bolts still had that new car smell. :idea: :arf:
Very nice! That route was a prime candidate.
Thanks dude. That crux bolt was scary!
Glad to see the tree branch has not grown up against the route.
That tree may be nearing the end of life stages.
-
That tree may be nearing the end of life stages.
Aren't we all.
-
I replaced the lead bolt shared by Lonesome Bolt and Sheepish on Wednesday.
The old bolt was a 3/8 split shaft with a stainless SMC hanger.
There was a noticeable crack emanating from the bolt hole and the bolt was crooked and at a significant down angle.
The bolt came loose and wiggled out with a half turn of the wrench on my puller tool (scary).
The surface chunked off when the bolt came out and I was forced to carve down at least an inch to keep the original bolt location.
I surveyed all the surrounding rock but was unable to find an alternate spot that was any better in terms of rock quality and angle of the surface. This was an extremely work intensive bolt to replace. I lost most of the hole carving down, so I was able to adjust the angle quite a bit (still slightly down).
Here is the old bolt (cratered, crooked, fractured, serious down angle)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3emTZXKxf9_nr-1DV4as1l2y0fOveDgcdVTuOKPoZ9uWhxnMaPyHyCm1632uhZMHsred0ulpeC5rB9GI0fLDUoolMRqbxqstJCCK5iRCMRGVlChgFENwu9-RcQq5YWoDBtvo13fuP-NthN_ZC8WbJT6=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
and the replacement
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cFnmikrPoem3hA8SuvcLeqdq7bL3wpvSFKbSxZIsEu9XxvGrwFqd6PeZgfoFP0YU2-RI--yxtaiHMsjvvaymGqZ4Pe4Ze1Ot76wYm8oBl2WhuCSYu5OLrDy_Sp8Shn9ulI-7LH-1tjCGPXSiCxU38P=w812-h609-no?authuser=0)
The surfacing isn't quite perfect but it is close. I'm thinking of taking up sculpting (NOT!).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3drOd3dQ06sXf0GdDVCzqT7fFZucBX2eQ3WoIC88KQT_NoJ08_huuEhW4peQsEbQIqq3aCVjItXgTcCP8ZLYEwyQZkJMrMdRkucfDbzaQg5998vELbp3mLrOrxJnzJXF019SW7bXwVpMx7AOiS_x0HG=w811-h609-no?authuser=0)
Not a lot to work with here. The rock is absolutely loaded with chunks of all sizes and covered with scabs. Uncooperative as he!!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dsrcNgsDph8jdEYOY1SV_MFIGk-O6gJWN_iFrtPGTVMzU6HGDBzxrjup-poFAe3ieg1lEUoyAlWqStKXjJxdjO7wLI-viJOEI8nxFwX39FN76-_16K73eWR8z-LYhTuGJBZmc4HwjJDaSbO83P9G8X=w457-h609-no?authuser=0)
-
Excellent work on Buicks! For what it's worth, I fell on Adagio's upper bolt thirty years ago. It held.
-
Excellent work on Buicks! For what it's worth, I fell on Adagio's upper bolt thirty years ago. It held.
Thanks Bob.
The last two bolts on Adagio are 5 piece with Metolius hangers.
I won't be replacing those.
-
Thanks Bob.
The last two bolts on Adagio are 5 piece with Metolius hangers.
I won't be replacing those.
Holmgren will be glad to hear it!
-
Holmgren will be glad to hear it!
Sorry Bob - you're thinking of the next route to the left with the horrendously long name.
That one only has two bolts (star dryvins?).
It likely does need the bolts replaced but I did not look at it this year.
I'll have to recheck it when the closures lift.
Adagio is Steve Wong and others FA.
-
Oops, you're right. Most of the small holds at the top weren't meant to stick around long, as I remember.
-
Beautiful work, JC. Your attention to detail and your mastery of the craft is very clear. Kudos to you!
-
Beautiful work, JC. Your attention to detail and your mastery of the craft is very clear. Kudos to you!
Thanks Gavin. That bolt was like a Final Exam for rebolters :crazy:
-
Just wanted to give a shout out to Brad.
He has been picking away at replacing old bolts on days when he is without a partner and revisiting areas to work on the next edition of the guidebook.
I have not been able to get out and don't know when I will again - so I really appreciate that work.
Thanks dude.
-
Hi, I know this is a super old thread but had a question. I climbed Feather Canyon last Dec after meeting brad in parking lot, hi brad! I was the curly haired young kid climbing with a friend. He gave us some extra beta because it was our first time. Really enjoyed the route, I think it takes a really great line up. But I think there's some really dangerous elements to that climb. For example the tree at the top of pitch 4 was almost uprooted, there's virtually no anchor at the top of pitch 3, and there's nothing on pitch 6, or pitch one at all. And the down climb pitch is extremely exposed and there should be something to protect the follower. When I did the route I expected gear placements where there wasn't bolts but there just wasn't anything except for I think a #1 on pitch 1 and 6. Is it in the plans to add some anchors to this climb, and bolts on the unprotected pitches? I'd love to help with rebolting efforts, and especially help on this route to help bring this climb into the modern climbing world. I just think it's simply not safe or responsible to have a nine pitch route in the guidebook that's basically impossible to retreat from if something were to go wrong mid route. If somebody got hurt you'd have to rig a rescue on one of those fist wide trees, or rap off of them? And some places like pitch 7 where you couldn't retreat at all. I'd love to hear if there's going to be more anchors because I would do the climb much more often if so. I really liked it, but I don't feel comfortable recommending it or climbing it often because it's just not that safe, and there's no gear placements either. Almost a solo. Thanks, looking forward to hearing back.
-
Excellent first post nateb.
It runs on a little though?
I'd separate your questions/comments into three categories:
1. Trees that used to provide secure end-of-pitch anchors have died or are dying and there are no longer effective as anchors;
2. The route lacks lead protection, and, in your view, some should be added;
3. The route is dangerous.
It's way too late to write and post extensive answers, but are you OK with the way I've categorized the issues you want to discuss?
I'll make time tomorrow to respond in detail. My short answers though are:
1. Yes, I agree;
2. Nope, not ever; if adding bolts to routes ever becomes acceptable the sport of climbing will die;
3. Danger is inherent in climbing and not all routes are or will be safe.
Good night for now.
-
Typically, bolts are only added to routes by the individual that put up the route. Classic lines are rarely have additional bolts added. Old routes tend to have fewer bolts even though they had much worse gear.
-
What Brad said.
Retrobolting lead protection bolts is unacceptable, without express permission of the FA'ists. (obligatory statement about how retro is not rebolting)
A failed tree anchor, if no other option, invites replacement with a sufficient anchor. In fact, for net new lines I prefer bolts to trees as inevitably my lines are classics and the tree will get abused. :)
Is the rating given a proper protection grade in the guidebook? Would a competent leader 'at the grade' find it to be "R" or "X" by definition of those grades?
-
Hey nateb, I called your first post excellent and I meant it. A real climber raising issues that they genuinely wonder about. And doing so politely.
Unheard of and nicely done!
-
It seems easier to deal with your questions one at a time. And easiest to start with this one:
2. The route lacks lead protection, and, in your view, some should be added.
I think you specifically asked if or when "someone" would add bolts to this routes in order to make it "safe."
But yeah, Mr Mud and Munge are right. One of the longest-held rules in climbing is no adding bolts to routes that other people put up.
This might seem like an arbitrary rule and one that can lead to "unsafe" climbs. But appearances can be deceiving. This rule, this strong tenet of climbing, instead preserves adventure in the sport and prevents what would otherwise become total chaos.
In a series of posts I'll explain the sentence above.
-
^^^
See the start of this conversation in page 58, above.
I've only met climbers who want to add bolts to other people's routes on a few occasions. The vast majority of climbers instead recognize that bolts are pretty permanent things and that adding them to already existing routes is a bad idea. Almost all climbers I've met agree that while a member of the first ascent party can add bolts to a route which they established, no other person should (EVER).
Here's the first of a series of reasons for this ethic:
1. This ethic avoids chaos:
If the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? It bears repeating - what "rule" would apply if it isn't this one?
It seems obvious that if any climbing party could add bolts to any route, total chaos would result. To an extent, the same result would follow if any party could subtract bolts from a climb, too.
There's no way that all climbers will ever agree on what is the higher value as between safety and risk. Parties will (and do) disagree on what makes a good route. They disagree on what makes a fun route, and they disagree on what makes a challenging route. There won't be agreement on this subject in general and there won't be agreement on it as to various, specific climbing routes. And so, if there is no "rule," no strongly held consensus of whether a route can be "changed" after it's first ascent (especially by the addition or subtraction of bolts), parties will add bolts and they might also subtract them at will.
In short, total chaos would result. Neither the rock itself (which is highly worthy of respect) nor the climbing community would benefit from such chaos.
A hard and fast rule (especially one steeped in tradition and history; see below) is one very good way to avoid such chaos. It may be the only way.
-
2. This ethic is clean and easy to apply:
Again, if the decisions made by the first ascent party aren't to govern the route after the first ascent, then what will govern it? What rule will apply?
If this rule isn't valid, then can a route be changed after the first ascent by consensus? If so, how strong a consensus, and who decides? How is a consensus to be formed? Would a consensus to make a route more dangerous require a stronger consensus?
What about leaving such decisions in the hands of the "best" climbers? Would that work? As an exercise, find me five climbers who can agree on what makes up the "best" climber. Just five who agree. Not likely?
Am I a "better" climber because I handle risk better than my buddy who climbs only on "safe" routes? Or is he the better climber because he leads 5.12s, while I max out on 5.11s?
I can't imagine a different "clean" rule, one that's easy to apply and is thus likely to be followed by a vast majority. Can any other climber here plainly and clearly describe such a rule?
-
3. This ethic has a strong tradition:
This argument in favor of letting the first ascent party "own" a route - "tradition" - is the best known and most frequently made. And it's a damn good argument to many. It's especially a good argument to those who enjoy the history of our sport. After all, what place in history would routes like Bacher Yerian (in Tuolumne Meadows), or Conduit to the Cosmos (at Pinnacles) have if they'd been dumbed down by subsequent ascents?
-
4. This ethic would prevent the "dumbing down" of all routes:
I, for one, value risk as an essential element of climbing. I'm glad that I'll never exist in a climbing world where all routes are "safe." I even resent those who try to make all routes "safe." Should all routes be safe? Aren't there plenty of safe routes around? Or should all climbs be gym-like so that injury is factored out and climbing becomes an exercise in outdoor gymnastics?
The question is phrased in a way that makes my answer to it clear. Is there really any climber out there who wants all routes to be equally safe? And, in the unlikely event that anyone can truly answer "yes' to this question, don't we circle back to the question: "then who gets to decide what "safe" means?
-
5. This ethic shows respect for others:
So, a clear and easy to apply "rule" prevents dumbing down every climb; it prevents chaos. What other value does such an ethic have? It fosters respect for others, respect for other people; in this case other climbers who came before us.
The older I get, the more that I value respect and kindness toward other people. In climbing and in life in general, discounting other people's values can be insulting and disrespectful. In this sport, there's tons of safe climbs out there, and tons that aren't safe. Is it really ever necessary to "tell" the first ascent party that their decisions were "bad" decisions by altering what they did?
I don't think so. As demonstrated in other threads on this forum, other climbers are willing to do that (and, ironically, the "other," disrespected climbers are then willing to be jerks to the original offenders and thus perpetuate a vicious cycle).
-
Turning now to your third question and to this specific route, Feather Canyon:
3. The route is dangerous.
I strongly disagree with this characterization of Feather Canyon.
I think we can agree that to some extent Feather Canyon is more "out there" than other Pinnacles routes. By "out there" I mean that it's longer and it's more remote than say a well protected, one pitch 5.8 route close to parking.
But does that mean that the route is dangerous?
I don't think so.
In fact, I could argue that the shorter route, the one closer to the car is more dangerous. Dangerous by virtue of being shorter and closer and thus inviting climbers to climb it when they aren't yet qualified to do so. When they can't really climb it "safely."
Maybe the closer route is nothing but an "attractive nuisance" that just asks poorly trained and inexperienced climbers to court disaster?
Few climbers I've met will commit to the full day that is Feather Canyon without having a certain level of experience, a certain level of understanding of climbing, climbing safety, and ways to get onto, up, and down/off such routes.
And there absolutely are ways to avoid almost every danger you described in your question (failing tree anchors is an exception and I'll deal with that last).
There are ways to avoid danger. If you know them. As an example only, various techniques that could be used to bail in an emergency include making Pinnacles rappels, cutting a rope end to sling over a mini-pinnacle, leaving a rope altogether, and down-climbing. I could go on and on (and frequently do).
Leaving gear!? Well, yes, sometimes it's necessary to leave gear in order to avoid disaster. It's part of the game.
If there's danger on Feather Canyon, I'd argue that it is the inadequately prepared or trained climber and not the route that is the source of danger.
And, again, if somehow we could reach a consensus that the route is unsafe and that bolts should be added? Who gets to decide how many bolts and where? What if one such person decides to add one lead bolt? And then they decide and declare that the route is finally "safe." Is that it for all time? My mom wouldn't think that the route is "safe" with only one added bolt. She wouldn't think it is safe until there was a bolt every three feet. Does my height-terrified mother get to decide?
Risk and skill are absolutely critical to keeping climbing what it is. I'd like to keep it that way, and although I am old and will be passing from the climbing scene in not too much time, I think that the vast majority of climbers see it this way too.
-
I took a minute to re-read from nateb's question onward.
I sure see some irony in my comment calling HIS post a little run-on >:D
-
Lots of reading.
Re bolting and Retro bolting are not the same thing. I am seeing more and more these days that the two get lumped into being the same thing.
All of the bolts in this re bolting thread were replaced bolt for bolt. When we are out replacing bolts for the ASCA we try to re-use holes and put the bolts back in the same location. In this way we are bringing the routes up to "modern" standards and insuring that others climbers in the future can have the same experience with safe protection bolts and anchors. We never add new additional bolts to routes.
I climbed Feather Canyon when it still had its original bolts. Since then all of the bolts were replaced by Bruce and Clint. Even with old bolts and the hanger missing from the crux bolt I did not find the route to be dangerous. When I climbed it I had already been climbing at Pinnacles for 5 or 6 years and I had climbed a fair amount of High Sierra routes.
Feather Canyon sees I would say at least a dozen maybe more ascents a year ( that's a guess) If the route was so dangerous I think by now we would have heard some more folks saying so. The majority of climbers can deduce from the information in the guidebook what type of route they are looking at. It is definitely an adventure climb that is closer to a High Sierra route vs a 9 pitch route in the valley. There are numerous meadows, parts where you walk to the next section, etc. Basically a lot of easy climbing that requires route finding and takes the climber on a improbable journey that deposits them at H and L dome.
If you look on Mt. Project there are 230 people with Feather Canyon on their To-do list. I would venture to say that the majority of them have done very little climbing at the Pinnacles. So why would Feather Canyon be on their list? The answer is that it is one of the few routes in the park that is 9 pitches long. Many new climbers are attracted to multi pitch routes. IMO Feather Canyon is not a good route for beginning climbers that do not have much experience climbing at Pinnacles. Climbers with this background will have a much different experience.
-
I heard through the grapevine that nateb has retained an attorney to respond.
-
I heard through the grapevine that nateb has retained an attorney to respond.
That's all fine and good. And it will remain fine and good AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT SING to us.
-
^^^
You are quite punny but you really have no real evidence to support that statement.
-
I forgot to say in the above post that I think no new bolts should be added to the route.
-
The third issue raised by nateb is the use of trees as end-of-pitch anchors. Most trees used in this way provide solid and convenient protection. Until they don't.
Trees die and are then useless as anchors. Where a first ascent party intended and found a good-quality anchor (the tree), none is then possible.
I also believe that using trees as anchors is bad for their health, and as more and more climbers use Pinnacles, more and more such trees suffer ill effects.
I think I've seen a consensus about trees develop at Pinnacles in the last 15 years. The consensus I think I see is to not use them as anchors on new routes, and to replace tree anchors with bolt anchors if the tree in question has died (and sometimes even before that occurs).
An example is the end of pitch three on the Goat Rock route Piece of Ewe. When that anchor tree died there was some discussion among the Masters of Mud. Everyone I heard from seemed to understand that with the tree dead, there was no top anchor possible any more on that pitch. Where Chuck Richards and crew had tied off a tree and scrambled off, there was no tree, no bolts and no possible gear. That's a pretty radical change.
So a two bolt anchor was added to the top of the pitch.
I've noticed this same issue with regard to Feather Canyon. At least one pitch ends at a tree that is dead or dying, and I think there are two such pitches and two such trees (I walked down the route a way on the day Jon and I finished Rituals and Magic). On the same note, the belay tree at the end of Old Original's second-to-last pitch is also totally dead.
I think that replacing dead anchor trees with bolt anchors is an agreed technique at Pinnacles. I think that replacing not-dead anchor trees with bolt anchors probably should become an accepted technique.
The dead tree anchors on both Old Original and Feather Canyon should be upgraded in this way.
Are my perceptions off on this issue? Does anyone disagree with me (other than Mr Mud and he'll disagree with me just to be disagreeable)?
-
And Noal raises a good issue/comparison.
Feather Canyon's level of protection, exposure and danger is very, very much likes huge numbers of High Sierra routes. It's also similar to many multi-pitch routes at, for example, Red Rock in Nevada. It's not unusual.
-
Thanks for the thorough reply Brad, and all others who responded, thanks as well. I definitely understand the retro-bolting ethics issues. I hope my post wasn't taken as me saying I wanted to retro-bolt feather canyon, I would never do that to someone else's route. I was just asking a genuine question if these things have ever been considered, especially with the tree anchor issues. You are very right in saying that these ethics preserve the integrity of the route put up by the FA party and protect the rock. I also think your comment about inadequately prepared climbers being a bigger source of danger is right. That route is pretty hard to get to/find so if someone is on it then they probably realize the risks.
I'm only 20, you all have been at it longer than I have and I understand why these ethics are in place and I agree with them.
-
IMO its probably worth considering putting in bolt anchors to avoid using those dead/almost dead trees and I'd be happy to help in that effort.
I didn't mean to start an ethics debate, so sorry about that. I basically agree with everything you said Brad, but there are some minor differences that may be simply generational. I agree with you if we set out to make all routes "safe" there's no end. Climbing will never be safe, and as you pointed out, the danger is literally an integral part of the route that must be preserved. But at the same time, I think there is sort of a slippery slope fallacy or you could call it the "Bachar Yerian Fallacy" with a comparison to that route /j . Just because some bolts are put in on some climbs doesn't mean they will all end up as bolt ladders, or ruin the integrity of the route, especially as conditions change over the years, because I would argue the real magic of a route is the movement the rock provides, not the danger, necessarily, although that can add to it. So I recognize your point, of course, but I think there's a realistic middle ground there where we protect history, but also make decisions democratically within the community if people want to add a bolt here or there. But your point also stands about how to make these decisions and what is a consensus/etc. So I think the best policy is no retrobolting. And the FA party must be consulted before any changes are made, if they want to put up a bold route that won't be repeated often, that's their choice. I'm probably just projecting my attitudes a bit too much which are, if I put up a route, I would want to make sure that it can easily be retreated from, and was generally well protected so that it's repeated and enjoyed by many. I wouldn't set out to create a test-piece or low percentage climb because I feel like that's not as much of a contribution to the greater population of climbers. Which Feather Canyon is generally well protected except for a few spots, which are easy climbing, and I think the retreating from a route part is just a difference in definitions. I think having to leave gear to retreat isn't really a desired outcome, especially from an environmental impact perspective. I think there's also generally problems with bailing leaving gear because the climber is inclined to leave as little as possible, and we all know the dangers of bad bail anchors.
On top of this I think that pinnacles is a unique climbing area in that there isn't much good gear, and there especially isn't that much good gear on Feather Canyon. So I certainly understand that it's like a high Sierra alpine route and I really enjoy that character of the climb, but we also have to keep in mind that it isn't high Sierra granite, so there's way less gear placements, perhaps putting a little more importance on developing routes that can be bailed from easily, even by those who have less experience, and not just say well they shouldn't be on it if they can't climb the grade. Because we all get in over our heads sometimes/get lost, off route, And personally if it was my route, I would want to make sure that if people are in that situation they can still get down safe to climb another day.
But thanks for all the comments, sorry to start a whole thing! No harm intended, I just wanted to ask a question and offer my opinion/help.
P.S. Brad, you also told me about Flying None when we met, I've climbed it 2x now, I love it! Thanks for the recommendation.
-
No harm, no foul. :)
If we don't talk about it, no one will learn there are pros and cons generally, and as it applies to Pinns, the history and tradition have dictated a rigorous ground up approach since the 80s. How many bolts any FA'ist wants to place going ground up is up to their judgement. There are some that think that a min bar bolt spacing amount is important, but if I'm doing the leading its my choice if I go ground up since I'm doing the hard work.
Feather Canyon is of a different era, and not everyone wants to spend all day drilling when they could climb. Regarding the tree, I'm down for a replacement even though I haven't actually been on the route! (don't hate me :) ) Though I'm probably not going to make to Pinns now that the Sonora Pass season is opening up.
-
nateb, I agree with Munge. It's important to discuss issues like this. Both to maintain a community consensus and so that younger climbers can learn (at least learn what older climbers have done and what they think - whether they ultimately agree or not as the climbing world becomes theirs).
-
Good discussion, reminding me.
On a good day, Brad could climb Feather Canyon in approach shoes and Noal could downclimb it in hiking boots.
Newer routes are typically safer and a lot of them could be considered “fun”, but many of the older routes are more like falling in love, a little dangerous.
I recommend Desperado Chuteout coupled with Derringer to the top of Machete Ridge, when the closures lift.
-
I disagree with all of you!
I have a friend in Hollywood and he managed to get his hands on the bolt gun Stallone used in Cliffhanger.
Time for Rampaging Bull!
-
Six days late!
-
^^^
I'm always an April fool.
I was thinking too - after all that work Brad put into his brief response to nateb, he might consider getting a personalized plate like Saul Goodman has on his caddy - LWYRUP.
If you don't get it, you Better Call Saul or start Breaking Bad.
-
Last season starts this month!
-
^^^
Once again, I'm surrounded by freaks.
But hey, thanks to Aaron at least I can use apostrophes again.
-
Seems like the place to mention this, when we were coming off Costanoan the other day the right side hanger at the top of pitch 3 was flexing inwards when we weighted it on rappel. Maybe there's a Pinnacles friendly way to rappel or something that we missed. But the hanger was definitely flexing the way we set it up. Oh, and just so it's clear, not the flange of the hanger flexing but the whole bolt, hanger, and everything.
-
Seems like the place to mention this, when we were coming off Costanoan the other day the right side hanger at the top of pitch 3 was flexing inwards when we weighted it on rappel. Maybe there's a Pinnacles friendly way to rappel or something that we missed. But the hanger was definitely flexing the way we set it up. Oh, and just so it's clear, not the flange of the hanger flexing but the whole bolt, hanger, and everything.
Definitely the place to mention it.
The only thing that sticks with me is your phrase "the way we set it up".
Isn't that anchor just rappel rings you can thread? There should only be one way to thread it.
I can take a look at it when I get back to the park.
If you carry a camera - it would be really helpful to take a picture of anything in question so I (and other rebolting-experienced folks on here) can see exactly what types of bolts and hardware are being discussed.
Here is an older pic I have of that anchor. The rappel bolts were placed way too far apart for rappel rings - which puts a lot of inward force on the anchor and may act to loosen the bolts over time. The amount of chain needed for that spread would be insane. It would be easier to just move one of the bolts or couple one long chain from the middle bolt with the right bolt's rings. I am guessing it was the sleeve bolt (rightmost) that was flexing. In the interim (of me getting out there), if someone is spooked by the flexing - they can always leave something on the middle bolt to tie it in with the other two.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8DaS7g3M7UfWVHbkJhC5Mn4AQ7B6J634LJ8rRETAeTPMPrBMuIYRPi6rs-_p8b-FwV6AWY1rMFzoBf7CNVnxfaZK4rw6hDAphgxtwbMgzn4bRte1RlOtVFQiY96A5FfTRkAn7LrrHmiNjpe126SulTX=w834-h625-no?authuser=0)
thanks,
JC
-
Definitely the place to mention it.
The only thing that sticks with me is your phrase "the way we set it up".
Isn't that anchor just rappel rings you can thread? There should only be one way to thread it.
I can take a look at it when I get back to the park.
If you carry a camera - it would be really helpful to take a picture of anything in question so I (and other rebolting-experienced folks on here) can see exactly what types of bolts and hardware are being discussed
thanks,
JC
This is obviously in the gym but it's exactly how we set it up. I mean, yes, unless I'm missing something, I'm fairly certain this is the only way to set up the rappel without leaving gear behind. But I do recognize that I'm hardly an expert. I was definitely getting American death triangle vibes on the setup and when that bolt started flexing, I just wanted to be gone. And yes, as you guessed, it's the rightmost bolt that's flexing.
(https://i.ibb.co/gW45hyK/IMG-4340.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7pkwLvm)
-
it's obviously the length/breadth issue with a dash of hanger alignment.
JC can fix it with a simple flex of a lobe and I should accompany him.
-
I was definitely getting American death triangle vibes on the setup
I was well acquainted in my youth, with the possible and very substantial dangers of the American Death Triangle. The church we attended during my teens was emphatic about just how exceedingly dangerous its casual use was to my future existence. Rules were in place to make sure I wouldn't ever gaze on one and face a sure and sudden demise. So I was protected in my formative years, from seeing many bikini bottoms. You know it only takes one...
One piece suits with an attached skirt, for modesty, were allowed.
-
^^^
Says the man with six daughters (all gorgeous like their mother). It seems like the church’s lesson didn’t take very well.
-
It seems like the church’s lesson didn’t take very well.
So I have been told.
-
I was definitely getting American death triangle vibes on the setup and when that bolt started flexing, I just wanted to be gone.
Careful what you wish for!
In all seriousness - thanks for the confirmation.
-
Careful what you wish for!
It’s like the scene from The Dark Knight…
Joker: [holds girl out window]
Batman: Let her go!
Joker: Very poor choice of words [drops girl out window]
-
Just a heads up - I replaced the rappel rings on Wet Kiss with mussy hooks (courtesy of Bruce Hildenbrand). The rings were getting a bit worn and rusty, and Bruce gave me a number of mussy hooks for the popular Bear Gulch routes that get a lot of climbing activity.
In the near future I'm hoping to adjust the chains on Stupendous Man - I don't feel they are as equalized as they could be and it should be an easy fix to modify the length of one or both of the existing chains.
-
Just a heads up - I replaced the rappel rings on Wet Kiss with mussy hooks (courtesy of Bruce Hildenbrand). The rings were getting a bit worn and rusty, and Bruce gave me a number of mussy hooks for the popular Bear Gulch routes that get a lot of climbing activity.
In the near future I'm hoping to adjust the chains on Stupendous Man - I don't feel they are as equalized as they could be and it should be an easy fix to modify the length of one or both of the existing chains.
Amazing thanks
-
Thanks Gavin.
Cantaloupe Death could use some shiner new anchors.
I’d be happy to help.
-
Just a heads up - I upgraded the Stupendous Man anchor today. I replaced the left-side chain with a shorter length, and then added screw links and mussy hooks at the end of each chain. The anchor now feels properly equalized for lowering from Stupendous Man and Power Point.
-
Another update - on Saturday (June 24th) I changed up the anchor setup for P.O.D. a bit at Monolith. It now has an equalized setup for P.O.D. using the leftmost bolt and the middle, upper bolt (which is newer, stainless steel, and has a chain length attached to make it equalized with the left bolt). Both have screwlinks attached to mussy hooks now. (The rightmost anchor bolt has a spinning hanger that used to serve as the other anchor bolt with the leftmost bolt using screwlinks and rap rings... Now it has no gear attached.)
I was hoping to upgrade the Cantaloupe Death anchor too but a party was climbing that route... hopefully I can get to that later in the season.
-
Thanks Gavin. I am glad you are doing the work.
-
Hi, long time lurker, first time poster! Has Anchor Scream (28) in the Ignorable Cliffs been rebolted? It's been a while since we checked it out, but it was all homemade galvanized angle iron hangers with rusted bolts.
Thanks for all the incredible work you all do out there!
-
There's a re-bolting master list that John maintains here on the site. I don't see Anchor Scream on there. Next time I am in that area I can check it out. Thanks for posting on the forum. If you go to Pinns on the reg please post more!
-
Went out there Jan 29 with Gavin this year. Was not rebolted.
The anchors to the right that are used for the 5.11 and triangle skirt route consists of cold shuts and could also use replacement. Clock is ticking, those two routes might get another repeat by the time Brad's 3rd edition pinnacles guidebook comes out.
-
The 3rd edition will be authored by AI Brad Young. Just think if there was an Android Brad forever roaming Pinnacles between the months of Oct-May. Would it continue to create lists and itinerary? Maybe it would start work on "A Senior Citizen Climber's Guide to Pinnacles National Park" All the ratings would be bumped up and the Monolith wouldn't be in there.
-
The 3rd edition will be authored by AI Brad Young. Just think if there was an Android Brad forever roaming Pinnacles between the months of Oct-May. Would it continue to create lists and itinerary? Maybe it would start work on "A Senior Citizen Climber's Guide to Pinnacles National Park" All the ratings would be bumped up and the Monolith wouldn't be in there.
ClimbGPT, create me a list of route descriptions in the style of known Pinnacles Climbing crank Brad Young. Ensure all the routes have something odd about them, like a fixed pin, a third anchor bolt that uses a star dryvin that's been left for history and no other reason, or something similar. Routes should be no harder than 5.10d, so that BradBot can continue to climb all routes at Pinnacles at 5.10 or lower in Good Style (TM).
-
Two days without reception. Back to it only to find that I have not one but three of you that need beatings. Give me time, I’ll get to it….
-
Sounds like the android has the real Brad tied up somewhere in the Park.
-
Anybody know how old the bolts and hangers are for the underground section of Subterranean Tango?
-
I could be wrong, but I think they are original. Moves are not bad, one and a half moves then backs off.
If you go down there check out Deck Chairs, good bolts and some fun moves. Weird climb but kind of cool, I have done it a few times.
-
I think they are original.
Tom Davis had comments about those bolts a few months ago on Mountain Project (where the route names are - naturally - screwed up). Have you seen those?
-
Seeing it now. There isn't a separation for the full version vs just the above ground section on MP. I'd be interested in figuring out how to replace them, but I've only installed from scratch (which you know) vs rebolting.