MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: mungeclimber on April 15, 2012, 08:03:19 PM
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Let's say you have two classic lines about 20' apart, with a potential classic line between them. And by classic line between them, I mean, relatively steep, solid rock, good knobs, and will be well protected and established ground up off aid and stance, with good clipping stances, mostly devoid of veg.
Assume the climbing moves do not share any of the holds with the two existing lines, until the very last two moves, and possibly not at all. Assume also that the moves of the proposed line are at least 6' away from the existing lines, and mostly are 8' away. Assume that it will require bolts to protect. Assume also that it has been top roped before. And at least once by me, but over 10 years ago.
Assume also that it is far from a trafficked area.
Would it make a difference if they were three starred climbs, as opposed to 1 and 2 star climbs?
Thanks for you well thought out responses.
Factor4, since I know you'll reply with snark, no need to reply. :P
This is actually a serious question for me, and I'm want to get as much insight as I can before attempting it.
If you have other examples of squeeze job climbs that you think are still good climbs, can you add those? What is their distance between climbing moves and climbing bolts?
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Good question Munge and worthy of consideration. I've been known to climb sandwich jobs and even on occasion enjoy them. Shortest answer is just don't do it. IMO, a sandwich job does little to the routes around it other then bringing their overall quality down. It's changes the experience for me.
Climbed a day at Squarenail this past winter.....easily one of the worst examples of sandwich jobs I've seen. On several routes I could have easy clipped bolts on three routes without moving more than a few feet. Hated that....like a gym day outdoors. Tons and tis of bolts.....
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IMO, a sandwich job does little to the routes around it other then bringing their overall quality down. It's changes the experience for me.
Climbed a day at Squarenail this past winter.....easily one of the worst examples of sandwich jobs I've seen. On several routes I could have easy clipped bolts on three routes without moving more than a few feet. Hated that....like a gym day outdoors. Tons and tis of bolts.....
agreed, if it is a sandwhich job, it doesn't go in. That's the criteria I'm searching for. Bolts on existing lines are definitely not clippable from the moves on the proposed line all the way up. That's a de minimis requirement, that if you can clip the bolts on existing lines from the moves on the proposed line, then it should be left a top rope problem, without a doubt.
But 6 feet or more between the lines until literally the last two moves, and possibly not at all, depending on how it climbs?
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Offhand I'd say that if the routes (holds or bolts) to the left and right can't be touched by the middle route then it's not a squeeze job.
Some other considerations besides spacing to consider.
1. Can two people climb the middle and side route without interfering with eachother? What about a fall? Can a swing bring one of the climbers into the space of the other?
2. The size of the crag would matter as well I would think. The aesthetics of the amount of bolts on the wall depends upon the perception of route:climbing space so the larger the crag the less of a visual impact (maybe, the opposite might be more true, not sure)
3. Continuing with visual aesthetics: are the routes to the left and right trad or bolted? I would think that if they're trad then the bolts in the middle won't be as much of a problem, except that maybe if they are trad routes then the bolts would change the visual character of that section of the crag lending one to say TR.
But in abstract, based upon your setup, sounds good to go.
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Climbed a day at Squarenail this past winter.....easily one of the worst examples of sandwich jobs I've seen. On several routes I could have easy clipped bolts on three routes without moving more than a few feet. Hated that....like a gym day outdoors. Tons and tis of bolts.....
Don't ever climb at Riverside Quarry. All that plus chipping.
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agreed, if it is a sandwhich job, it doesn't go in. That's the criteria I'm searching for. Bolts on existing lines are definitely not clippable from the moves on the proposed line all the way up. That's a de minimis requirement, that if you can clip the bolts on existing lines from the moves on the proposed line, then it should be left a top rope problem, without a doubt.
But 6 feet or more between the lines until literally the last two moves, and possibly not at all, depending on how it climbs?
Seems to be fair.
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Don't ever climb at Riverside Quarry. All that plus chipping.
Ha! I'd actually like to.....worth visiting but repeatedly is still tbd
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Offhand I'd say that if the routes (holds or bolts) to the left and right can't be touched by the middle route then it's not a squeeze job.
Some other considerations besides spacing to consider.
1. Can two people climb the middle and side route without interfering with eachother? What about a fall? Can a swing bring one of the climbers into the space of the other?
2. The size of the crag would matter as well I would think. The aesthetics of the amount of bolts on the wall depends upon the perception of route:climbing space so the larger the crag the less of a visual impact (maybe, the opposite might be more true, not sure)
3. Continuing with visual aesthetics: are the routes to the left and right trad or bolted? I would think that if they're trad then the bolts in the middle won't be as much of a problem, except that maybe if they are trad routes then the bolts would change the visual character of that section of the climb lending one to say TR.
But in abstract, based upon your setup, sounds good to go.
Thx Cobble, great criteria to think through!
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Mungie,
I'd bolt next and then cross your route.
Painting your hangers purple.
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The only way to give a meaningful opinion is to see the line in question, but I doubt you'd share a possible new route with half a dozen, scavenging, vulture-like fellow first ascentionists.
Without seeing the existing and potential lines, here's my best response: the very fact that you're raising the issue makes me think it's probably too close to the routes on either side.
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Without seeing the existing and potential lines, here's my best response: the very fact that you're raising the issue makes me think it's probably too close to the routes on either side.
Excellent point Brad. I've found that the mind (all too often) has the answers to questions before they are even asked.
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The only way to give a meaningful opinion is to see the line in question, but I doubt you'd share a possible new route with half a dozen, scavenging, vulture-like fellow first ascentionists.
Without seeing the existing and potential lines, here's my best response: the very fact that you're raising the issue makes me think it's probably too close to the routes on either side.
correct on the first part. ;)
with regard to raising the question, that can be explained by the fact that I don't think I've ever bolted a new line anywhere near existing classic lines. The closer you get to the flame, the more hesitant one is to get near it, doesn't mean you can't run your finger thru a candle's flame.
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What is wrong with leaving it as a TR? That isn't necessarily bad.
It seems as though bolting it may not actually be bad but it also seems as though this could be more aesthetic left as a TR. 6 to 8 feet between routes is not to bad but it is getting close. There are routes that fit that bill on the Monolith that look and climb fine. Any closer...
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It seems as though bolting it may not actually be bad but it also seems as though this could be more aesthetic left as a TR.
what would be the criteria for an "aesthetic TR"? - other than it necessarily avoiding a squeeze job on otherwise good rock.
if the anchor is not directly over the top of it, it could be a bad pendo. So to make it a good aesthetic TR, I believe, would require adding at least anchor bolts.
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Yes.
A TR would need an anchor.
what would be the criteria for an "aesthetic TR"? - other than it necessarily avoiding a squeeze job on otherwise good rock.
if the anchor is not directly over the top of it, it could be a bad pendo. So to make it a good aesthetic TR, I believe, would require adding at least anchor bolts.
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Yes.
A TR would need an anchor.
So it seems that a good aesthetic TR would need new bolts (2). If adding bolts, then why not add lead bolts? What is qualitatively the difference, if either type is camouflaged anyways? Assume the TR bolts would be visible to hikers, but not any more or less than the 2 other classic lines.
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to squeeze or not to squeeze.
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Have you ever climbed a squeeze job where you didn't wander into adjacent routes? I have, and has as been said above, it kinda degrades the existing routes.
Look at the Monolith, there are a few TRs that 'could' be bolted, but thank goodness Clint first called them TRs. They're great as TRs. And as leads, they would be every bit as good as POD or Noises. But IMO, it would be a disgrace if they were bolted.
Brad has it right: If you have to ask...there's probably a good reason. The funny thing about the Pinns is that if you find good rock, you can put a route in every three feet. Put one in three feet left of the Beast, and another one three feet left of that. They might not be quite as good as the Beast, but they'd be a hoot to lead....
TR with a directional, that's my guess for the best resolution from what can be gained from the read. And I know, what a flubber of good line. But you might be happier if it was left without the bolts.
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Have you ever climbed a squeeze job where you didn't wander into adjacent routes? I have, and has as been said above, it kinda degrades the existing routes.
Brad has it right: If you have to ask...there's probably a good reason. The funny thing about the Pinns is that if you find good rock, you can put a route in every three feet. Put one in three feet left of the Beast, and another one three feet left of that. They might not be quite as good as the Beast, but they'd be a hoot to lead....
Hi K-man,
There is no argument here about whether or not a "squeeze" job will wander onto existing routes. By definition they do. But at what poing does a squeeze job not become a squeeze job anymore?
I have to ask. But probably not for the reason that this hypothetical has met an unstated criteria of a squeeze job. Rather, because we tend not to agree what the criteria are as a community, and instead condemn after the fact (sometimes passive aggressive, sometimes aggressively).
3 feet is obviously squeeze.
Let's try another way to work thru this...
Is Pweeter a squeeze job?
Is Stupendous Man a squeeze job?
Is Hot Lava a squeeze?
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Munge -
Interesting question. Like Brad, Mud, and k-man, my instinct is that a TR would make more sense. I think that for me personally, a squeeze job would still tend to include bolted lines within 5-6 feet of each other because I can reach that far over to the bolts on the next line.
I'm not clear on how the climbs you ask about would be squeeze jobs, but perhaps I'm missing something... Though Pweeter starts at the base of Jorgie's and ends up at the top of Ordeal, most of the bolted moves aren't near either. For Stupdendous Man, what other bolted lines do you feel are too near it? There are Lithium and Power Point, but both are definitely further away and on more difficult features (and until Power Point joins with it). Likewise for Hot Lava.
Again, those are my initial perceptions!
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Meh, more the better. Go to Europe or south Africa. Clearly, squeeze job is not in French or German.
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Meh, more the better. Go to Europe or south Africa. Clearly, squeeze job is not in French or German.
F4, quit trolling bullshit. You take that approach and you'll end up with a grid of chopped bolts. Do you want red anodized bolts next to cracks too? Wait, maybe you might but not the rest...........
Aren't you on the beach?
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There is no argument here about whether or not a "squeeze" job will wander onto existing routes. By definition they do.
Actually, I was saying that squeeze jobs don't necessarily have to wander into other routes for them to feel squeezy.
For example, I was looking at a line just left of Hard as a Rock. Start at the arete, go up close to HAAR, then back out left. Gets real close to HAAR, but doesn't touch it. While climbing it, you might want to go into HAAR, but would do your best to avoid it to make the line independent. Maybe somebody will bolt it, but it will be a squeeze job, and it will lessen the HAAR, in my opinion.
Pweeter is a variation, and a valid one at that. It doesn't really squeeze any other routes, you're not purposefully avoiding holds to make it independent. (Extra points if you know the origin of that route name!)
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within 5-6 feet...
I'm not clear on how the climbs you ask about would be squeeze jobs, but perhaps I'm missing something... Though Pweeter starts at the base of Jorgie's and ends up at the top of Ordeal, most of the bolted moves aren't near either. For Stupdendous Man, what other bolted lines do you feel are too near it? There are Lithium and Power Point, but both are definitely further away and on more difficult features (and until Power Point joins with it). Likewise for Hot Lava.
ah, ok, so we're getting closer to the definition of what is a squeeze job. 5-6' apart is squeeze... because those of us with longer reaches can make those clips.
WRT, to the other lines, that's the point, they join each other. They are squeeze jobs, but called out as independent routes, and they get stars, and everyone likes them.
I would ask why is there a lot of initial resistance to defining what is or isn't a squeeze job?
Again, please don't use the "if you have to ask" because that just is an implied impuning of my ability to think critically about where to place bolts. If folks are concerned about my judgement of actually placed and spaced out bolts, then we've got a different issue.
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(Extra points if you know the origin of that route name!)
I don't think I've heard the story/explanation! I'm quite curious about it though.
I see what you're saying about HAAR. Agreed, lines that touch and rejoin, would also be a definition of a squeeze.
see my reply to Gavin on the Pweeter example. Probably not a persuasive generalization of a line being put between other lines because it doesn't have any real bolts that close.
How about this one? What about bolting "Holiday Ordeal" the TR problem? Climbing the line that doesn't touch Ordeal, I think would be a squeeze since much of the line would be reachable from the upper half of the first pitch of Ordeal. Essentially a variant that joins is a squeeze in that case. But look at other lines that share anchors by comparison. So I think there is an aesthetic definition of proportion that makes shorter lines more suspectible to the charge because we can say " well most of the route is distinct"
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Munge, how about this for a back-of-the-envelope definition: A squeeze job is a route where you purposefully don't use holds on an adjacent line in order to keep the line independent.
It's pretty rough, and it would allow for a lot of routes that I do consider squeeze jobs. Certainly, if a route shares holds (where it doesn't just climb the same line) is a squeeze.
Also, consider this. If two folks are climbing two routes next to each other, and they have to make way for each other, then ur squeezin'! Of course the same caveat--Variations, by definition, will climb sections of existing routes.
Rubine and I were doing a route in Yosemite once, and we came within 10' of an existing line. We ran it out there, dangerously, because we didn't want our route to infringe on the older established line. Later, I wanted to go back and add a bolt (who wants a ground fall potential from 50'), but I still thought it would be tight against the other route.
In a place like the Pinns, where the resource is scarce and the holds tend to not draw distinct lines, it's difficult to not want to bolt where the rock is good.
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Again, please don't use the "if you have to ask" because that just is an implied impuning of my ability to think critically about where to place bolts.
No, it's not; no such thing is implied or express.
It's instead a general reaction to a very, very general question. You want reactions in feet but we have no context, no idea where and what and no detail. I gave that answer because the question is asked in a vacuum. Six feet in some circumstances might be a squeeze job, but not in others.
Instead of impugning your ability, I was assuming your ability to think critically about bolt placements was higher than average (which it is). And if a "higher than average" thinker recognizes the issue in a given location, it's probably a squeeze job.
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Oh, and Kelly, I'll bite too: what's the origin of the name Pweeter?
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(Extra points if you know the origin of that route name!)
So, this is a great question which could almost be a thread of it's own. I've always thought there are real and fun stories behind many route names.
Since there isn't much history to the climbing on the Sonora Pass Highway, the first ascent appendix contains little stories and anecdotes about just such things. The idea is to add flavor to an area without much in it's (known) past. Here are two of my favorites:
From a route on Frankensteins:
A. Hasty Departure 5.9 FA (solo): Tom Addison, 5/28/04 (The first ascent was made, onsight, free solo - in tennis shoes - as a means of escaping from a snow storm.)
From a route on the Body Parts Wall of Herring Creek Dome:
F. Emergency Tracheotomy 5.8 X FA: Jeff Lane, Robert Behrens, 6/16/02 (The name “Body Parts Wall” comes from this route. On the first ascent a hold blew off, at the crux, before the leader could place any protection. The leader started to fall - his upper body was completely disengaged from the rock. As he was going he desperately snatched a hold at the last second, saving himself from an “Emergency Tracheotomy.”)
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Munge, how about this for a back-of-the-envelope definition: A squeeze job is a route where you purposefully don't use holds on an adjacent line in order to keep the line independent.
It's pretty rough, and it would allow for a lot of routes that I do consider squeeze jobs. Certainly, if a route shares holds (where it doesn't just climb the same line) is a squeeze.
Also, consider this. If two folks are climbing two routes next to each other, and they have to make way for each other, then ur squeezin'! Of course the same caveat--Variations, by definition, will climb sections of existing routes.
Rubine and I were doing a route in Yosemite once, and we came within 10' of an existing line. We ran it out there, dangerously, because we didn't want our route to infringe on the older established line. Later, I wanted to go back and add a bolt (who wants a ground fall potential from 50'), but I still thought it would be tight against the other route.
In a place like the Pinns, where the resource is scarce and the holds tend to not draw distinct lines, it's difficult to not want to bolt where the rock is good.
good rules, that's really helpful in narrowing it down.
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No, it's not; no such thing is implied or express.
It's instead a general reaction to a very, very general question. You want reactions in feet but we have no context, no idea where and what and no detail. I gave that answer because the question is asked in a vacuum. Six feet in some circumstances might be a squeeze job, but not in others.
Instead of impugning your ability, I was assuming your ability to think critically about bolt placements was higher than average (which it is). And if a "higher than average" thinker recognizes the issue in a given location, it's probably a squeeze job.
fair enough
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Here is an example of a squeeze. The upper part of Power Point. The part where you move onto Stupendous Man. The lower part is ok, the upper part should not have been bolted.
Another good example is the route to the left of Big Pucker. The lower part is a squeeze the upper part is great.
Future Shock is interesting to note for me since no one considers it a squeeze. It is not, but, It is possible to traverse over and use some holds that some people use on Rocket in my Pocket.
I think the statement of aesthetics hits it about as close as possible. To define a squeeze route definitively is difficult considering the medium we are working with is quite varied. Sometimes you can start on one route and end on another while in the middle you used completely independent holds and it seems like a good route. Other times you look at a route with the same description and ask what were they thinking.
Part of the problem with routes of this nature is it will just bother some folks while others think it is no big deal. I suppose the artistic part is to make sure you please more than you piss off.
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Here is an example of a squeeze. The upper part of Power Point. The part where you move onto Stupendous Man. The lower part is ok, the upper part should not have been bolted.
Another good example is the route to the left of Big Pucker. The lower part is a squeeze the upper part is great.
Future Shock is interesting to note for me since no one considers it a squeeze. It is not, but, It is possible to traverse over and use some holds that some people use on Rocket in my Pocket.
I think the statement of aesthetics hits it about as close as possible. To define a squeeze route definitively is difficult considering the medium we are working with is quite varied. Sometimes you can start on one route and end on another while in the middle you used completely independent holds and it seems like a good route. Other times you look at a route with the same description and ask what were they thinking.
Part of the problem with routes of this nature is it will just bother some folks while others think it is no big deal. I suppose the artistic part is to make sure you please more than you piss off.
true
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What if you grid bolt a nearby chossfest loser crag (something within site or your orig project)?
That way, by the magic of perspective, people wouldn't even consider the orig route when compared to "that grid bolted squeezefest right over there."
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Take a walk, a long walk. There's untouched rock out there and nobody else needs to know.
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The youth is just gonna rap bolt it anyway.
Seriously, if you can hand the leader of route #1 a BLL whilst redpointing route #2 I say it's a squeeze.
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two long armed BLL drinkers? Or just an average monkey hooker?
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If anyone in the party is drinking a BLL, I'd say it's a squeeze job. If you're sipping bourbon then bolts can be no less than 2feet apart.
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No beach for me. I did touch the water. But there was a sign saying bano...
I think it's a slippery slope. In the end is or are the climbs good. O one has talked about buffalo soldier. Sure the start is with ordeal, but it does take on it's own line.
Yes, bll is welcomed this weekend.
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Ahh, to let it out, or not....
OK, here goes (sorry David if you meant to keep this secret!):
Pweeter, the nickname he gave to his special love.
Big Pucker, named for the now deceased tree that used to kiss the rock next to the start of the route. I wish we had a picture of that tree, it was pretty funny.
I wanted to name Foreplay "Wet Kiss," but was overruled. I found a better place for the name though.
I think the story for Zippy Do Da has been told.
I never figured out why Tom wanted to name that thing Racing Stripes, but when we put up the route next to it, I gave it meaning with the name Melvin. I laughed hard at that one.
The roof is the height that the water will reach after the big rain.
David scoped Black Dagger. It took us a couple of day's attempting to stick the first moves. Of course, I had to be the one to unlock the sequence, and quickly found myself high above that fuggin' landing. I was too scared to try a hook, I placed a crummy pin and drilled the bolt off of that. After sending it, I tossed through the evening trying to figure out a really cool name for the route. Later, after the name was published, I was dismayed to find out there was a Black Dagger on the Diamond! And then *another* at Red Rocks! And I thought I was being so original. Oh well...
Isn't it a favorite pass-time of climbers to dream of FA names? I know I have a list, with one or two really good names... MmmmHahahahahahaha.
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I didn't know Foreplay was done before Wet Kiss. huh
Clearly I have not caught up on my Rubinical Studies.
I shall attend Monument this weekend on the Slabbath.
The holy Talmud teaches us that all rock at Pinnacles is sacred, deserving of study, and fear.