MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: Atomizer on June 25, 2012, 07:58:38 PM
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The day of Rap/Ground-up bolting is here whether we like it or not. The back of the Monolith has become the testing ground for a new age of Pinnacles bolting. First with what I believe was a very valiant effort at a new style of Pinnacles FA by Derek and Karl on West of the Sun. Now I have been told that the unfinished projects on the back of the Monolith have been completed, with bolts placed on rappell. Apparently the right side route is 5.13a and called Glow Worm. The other one is yet to be completed. These long abandoned projects were intended as ground up routes by the area visionary Tom Davis.
I'm not sure how I feel about these projects being completed in a style which I don't practice. I am feeling hate and potential climbing pleasure at the same, and as much as it pains me to learn of these actions, I could be stoked to climb these routes... maybe more than the few rap bolted routes at Pinnacles that I do enjoy. But for now I feel like the stone has been violated with an action that speaks of disrespect for the area traditions and community. When Mark and I did the first ascent of Miscegenation last year ground up and on lead, we were praised for being young and not being dumb. The current routes in question make me question the first ascent parties intention, an intention of disrespect that also speaks a voice that may not be quieted, that may soon rule this world. Will rap bolting proliferate? This is a world of instant gratification were safety and security is now meant to be a part of life
But what do you do? We don't own this stone. As much as we would like to possess it, we are just transient here, and what makes our traditional voice any more valid then that of people that would turn Pinnacles into an outdoor gym if they, just felt like it?
I am personally effected by this because Tom Davis recently gave the go ahead to Mittens and I to go up those lines and finish them. And we intended to complete them in a style that would make Tom proud. But now things are different. And I asked Tom about whether he cared about this rap bolting, and he was indifferent about the line that is on the left. Plus he didn't seem to care about it being rap bolted, which caught me way off guard. But Tom didn't feel the same about the right side route. He has been training the last year to do that route. He just sent Miscegenation and is looking really strong and psyched with his eyes on this project that has been rap bolted now.
But the absence of Tom on those projects for 20 years speaks a lot. To the unprivileged eye they seem abandoned, and I'm not surprised this has happened. I spoke to K-Man and he says to chop these routes. But some voice in my head says "you're just going to put the bolts back in so why chop them?" And just for a note, Sharma sent both those routes already on TR 15 years ago.
Edit: Does it make a difference if the rap bolter was woman?
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1. This is a world of instant gratification where safety and security is now meant to be a part of life
2. But what do you do? We don't own this stone. As much as we would like to possess it, we are just transient here, and what makes our traditional voice any more valid then that of people that would turn Pinnacles into an outdoor gym if they, just felt like it?
3. Edit: Does it make a difference if the rap bolter was woman?
Responses to a few of your points:
1. Yes, you're right. And ego too. Her (and his) desires are more important to her (them) than what the great majority of Pinns climbers think and feel. It's happened before.
2. No-one owns the stone. We can't stop her because she has the right to do as she pleases in this regard. But coins have two sides. Others also have the right to do as they please. If she is free to do what she wants, others are free to do as they want. If/when the bolts disappear is that a greater violation than when they appeared?
3. Of course not. Only the quality of the person (or lack thereof) should be in question.
Also: Although I've counted him as a friend for many, many years, and I truly like and admire him, I did not respond well to his phone call telling me about this. Not well at all.
I intend to speak my mind on this subject. I will listen politely, and argue. I may take action, or encourage others to do so (it's not even Pinnacles season for god sake).
Finally, although I am quite unhappy about this event (I am being very diplomatic here - it's the professional in me coming out), I will also do my damnedest not to make personal attacks just because someone has committed what I think is an egomaniacal atrocity. I will do my best in this regard, although the above sentence in and of itself shows that I will not be/am not perfect. I likewise suggest that no personal attacks should start against people I care about, or against me because of this issue. No such attacks either in person, or on any part of the internet. I suggest this very, very strongly.
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There is way more to this than I will probably ever know and at my tender climbing age, I truly have nothing to contribute other than my observations.
Adam - eloquent and thoughtful as always.
No, we don't own the stone but we can try to be guardians of them and of tradition.
I can only imagine these are very similar arguments waged at the time sport routes were popping up. Right or wrong. Ground up vs rap down. Sport vs trad.
I am truly sorry you and Mittens were not able to complete Tom's route with his blessing and even more so that he will not be able to finish the right side.
And, for what it's worth, being a dumb ass is not gender specific. Ego does as ego is.
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chop it!
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Did Derek and Karl's route act as a justification?
Was this new line topped down only after a failed ground up effort?
Does the top downer know about the history and prevailing ethic?
Would an engagement effort make a difference?
If we remove the bolts on this one, will we remove all the other top down routes?
Just a few of the questions I have.
I am not opposed to anyone removing top down bolts at Pinns.
Cleaning up Maestri's stuff may have opened up the possibility of a new ground up effort, no?
Whether history is ground up or top down, the routes can be created anew, though the history remains.
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Some statements from a discussion this spring:
I believe Karl is helping define the new way of Pinnacles routing
Problem I have is that tactic was justified to the masses for the end product. The same way the next route placed on rappel will be pimped to us.
I don't think there should be ANY concern for the top down approach at pinns.
Now there is.
This falls intimately close to drilling on others routes. Both have shown thier faces as of late.
When opposition for the "Outsiders" starts, they can use the 14 year pinnacles veteran's decision to rap bolt as an example of why it's "Okay". Preserving the rock is #1 right?
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HAHAHAH!!!!
This is just the start, and we have Karl and Derek to thank for opening the door.
And Bellizzi for being the head cheerleader on FB.
No matter how you sugar coat it, shit still stinks.
Removing the bolts from the monolith is going to be much easier than sending those projects again, and again, and again.
This is gonna be thug, hope you rap bolters are ready.
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I think that the ground up ethic is a long established tradition at Pinnacles and should remain. Traditions do change and new climbers come into the mix with challenging ideas, however this rock is a finite resource and should be treated as such. Preservation of the history and tradition is mandatory and new standards of ethics should adopted slowly and with much debate. Maybe in certain cases where this bottom up ethic cannot be followed we should accept that the rock just wins. It may change in the future, but today the rock wins. If you feel that strongly about completing the route then more power to you, please feel free to develop the climbing style or the technology that will allow you to complete the route within the spirit of our ethic. What is wrong with the rock winning? We are only visitors and we are bolting for future generations of climbers.
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Jack Holmgren and I attempted to add a third pitch to Lava Falls. Jack put in the first bolt from stance. I got past it, but I could not achieve balance enough to drill. He did and he placed yet another star. We went back several times. The last time, a late September afternoon, hangs in my memory. Jack was as fit and committed as ever I've known him. He went eight or ten feet beyond the second bolt. He achieved an amazing, stemmed out stance, but he couldn't begin to drill. He came down and we never went back.
How you climb is far more important and memorable than what you finally get up - in whatever fashion. Rappel bolted routes just don't matter.
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How you climb is far more important and memorable than what you finally get up - in whatever fashion.
Change a few words and you've got a philosophy to live your life by.
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What is wrong with the rock winning?
Not a damn thing. It keeps us humble and hungry.
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So much for enjoying a day of climbing...getting drunk and passing out by the campfire??? Way too much philosphy....
Waldo, when was the last time you 2x were up on the 3rd pitch of lava? Last winter I swear I saw another bolt. Estimated rating???
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well said Waldo
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not sure how to find this on the site but it is good.
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=862.0;wap2 (http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=862.0;wap2)
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1991 was when Jack and I were last up there, I believe. I recall only two bolts, but I could be in error. Difficulty? Jack was able to stop in the middle of a 10c/10d move and drill. He might get in only six or seven hammer taps before yielding the stance.
That route on the NW corner of Gargoyle is a good example. He was a fierce, meticulous downclimber. He went up and down from the crux bolt forty or more times. It took him almost four hours to get the hole drilled. He was knackered when the bolt went in. Sam stormed past it to the summit, but Jack's skill got us the climb.
Up on the 3rd pitch of Lava, Jack couldn't hold a position for more than a couple of seconds. I'd guess it was 11+.
Hey, beer is philosophy.
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Agree with Mucci. Things need to get thug. I'm nothing but armchair though as long as I'm running my summer camp until Aug.
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patching technique should be impeccable. Use similar colored gravel and rock dust as the stone being patched.
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Anybody know what type of bolts they used?
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Well waldo I swear another on is in there. I'll have to get back in shape and go up there and take some pictures.
I knew I shouldda suckered Mr Mud into giving it a go when we were up there years ago.
Beer is good.
If wanting to remove bolts...go do some anchor replacement....
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Who said I was removing bolts... I'm just going to smash them down. That is the preferred method right?
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Actually i don't think I'm going out anytime soon to do any removal ops.
What Aaron says about "the rock wins" keeps moving around the different sectors of my brain. I am not sure what that means yet or what he intended. It could go either way. Possibly a justification for chopping bolts to respect the rock but also for leaving the bolts to protect the rock from further drilling.
I'm not totally sure what "its going to get thug means" either. Is that a physical threat or chop talk. As a group of traditionalists we seem pretty unsure of what to do. And unfortunately (with no offense intended) I am separated from the others who are commenting here because I am in position to climb routes at that level, but don't feel the desire with the current events that have spoiled the purity. And I wouldn't feel right chopping a route then coming back and leading it to put bolts back in. But I do see how the motivation of anger could get the job done that Tom couldn't do 20 years ago.
Can someone else do the job so a Real FA team can go up and set the record straight?
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And I wouldn't feel right chopping a route then coming back and leading it to put bolts back in.
Talk more about this. I've had the same sensation on occasion with a line I had spied, but someone later bolted it on rappel. In that area, there is not precedent or strong tradition to appeal to, unfortunately. But in the case of Pinnacles, there seems to be enough incursions into TD behavior for what is a GU area, that it seems right to say no more. Preserve it for guys like you and Mark and other strong climbers that have never heard of GU climbing, but once they do, they'll need folks actually doing it to show them how it's done and why that moment or possibility of 'not knowing' is so important.
If the only examples going forward are top down, then 'we live what we learn' as a community.
From the little information we have here and on FB, it seems justifiable to remove the bolts in my opinion. We should confirm with the route setter/equippers. There should be no 'scene' around it. They just quietly disappear one day.
Also, I don't think thug means threat of violence or anything like that. It means physical effort has to be expended to pull those. Most likely they are stud wedge type bolts. Much harder to pull, thuggish.
Then again a "SMACK DOWN TIME" language was used. But that person is always energetic in their speech and may have meant smack talk, not as in physical threat of violence.
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I am pretty resiliant in my charge Adam.
Pretty clear as to what we "traditionalists" should do as well.
Are WE unsure? You have made it clear you are on the fence.
I will leave the definition of "Thug" up to those who choose to continue down this road in regards to rap bolting in pinnacles. No threats of violence here, just colorfull adjectives that the KIDS are used to hearing/using these days :)
For all of you rap bolting lurkers....
Feel free to give me a call. I am very easy to contact, and very active at pinnacles. We can discuss how your team will do the right thing and remove your installation. If not, your routes will be erased. All of them.
The hangers will be re-purposed for rebolting projects that benefit the community that frequent the area.
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Way to take charge Mucci! I'm definitely on your side of the fence. I just have extra concerns related to if I were to attempt to climb the route ground up post-chop.
And I wouldn't feel right chopping a route then coming back and leading it to put bolts back in.
If I had already participated in some thuggery, I wouldn't consider my latter effort to be truly Ground Up. The feeling of adventure would be reduced by knowing the terrain beforehand. That would be a sort of "Headpoint GU".
Would a post-chop GU effort feel degraded or enhanced by the fact that others had already been there?
I could feel motivated by the frustration, pride, and love for traditional values and and be more determined to ascend in GU style.
I could also feel like the route has been devalued; the rock has been cleaned, tested, and sent. The questions have already been answered and the adventure destroyed.
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I could also feel like the route has been devalued; the rock has been cleaned, tested, and sent. The questions have already been answered and the adventure destroyed.
Wouldn't Sharma TRing both climbs yield the same response, if such a response be present in your individual ethics?
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both good points
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What Sharma has done has little bearing on what I can do. I learned long ago that Chris is just way better than all of us, possibly everyone. You can't compare Sharma to a mere mortal and expect similar results. The fact that Sharma climbed a route doesn't effect me in the same way as learning that a mortal like Vian could climb these routes.
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That makes sense.
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That makes sense.
had to think about that for a minute, but then the caveat individual ethics applies.
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I think I have a similar feeling about certain athletes, but since my sport is aid more than sport, the same concept would apply to people like Ammon's speed on nailing routes or Tommy's freeing of aid routes. Their accomplishments are cool, but have no bearing on how I approach aiding.
But OT of course, back on topic.
If the bolts are still there in late Aug and consensus is to chop them, I'm more than willing to help learn the art of removing and restoring.
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But if you take a step back....who has the right to chop? Is there a committee?
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I thought Sharma answered the question that it would go free, not the question on whether or not it could be bolted ground up as the previous folks had been trying to do. I thought I heard some where Sharma said 12c?
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I see issues here since we are arguing in isolation from the folks who may feel the other way. Maybe I will take the perpetrator up on his offer to get some margaritas on the way home from work one of these days. Maybe Mucci wants to come along?
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But if you take a step back....who has the right to chop? Is there a committee?
really gunna ask that one? Thought we had done the philosophical hashing before? Anyways, there is no taking a step back with regard to that question. Anyone that can put one in, can take one out.
It's essentially partisan when it comes to the action. Either one is for a particular bolt, or against it, or ambivalent enough to let others make the decision for them whether it goes in, stays, or goes.
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A quote by Dave Yerian from California Climber Mag:
What are the most significant changes have you seen in the sport since
you began climbing?
“Styles of climbing have changed a lot; like people previewing and preprotecting
routes from the top down. To me, coming from the top down
is less exciting because by viewing the climb in advance you’re taking
some of the adventure out of it. It seems like people are sacrificing the
sense of adventure for the sake of number gain.”
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What Aaron says about "the rock wins" keeps moving around the different sectors of my brain. I am not sure what that means yet or what he intended. It could go either way.
Atomizer sorry if I was not clear. What I intended to say was that if you cannot create a route with the tradition and ethic of GU, leave it alone -- the rock wins this time.
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Meh. The Stone has time. It'll eventually peel away your efforts. Do YOU want to look at some atrocity(or classic, to be fair...who can say?) for the rest of your life?
Cheers! ::)
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really gunna ask that one? Thought we had done the philosophical hashing before? Anyways, there is no taking a step back with regard to that question. Anyone that can put one in, can take one out.
It's essentially partisan when it comes to the action. Either one is for a particular bolt, or against it, or ambivalent enough to let others make the decision for them whether it goes in, stays, or goes.
So if I got enough consensus to add a bolt....I could?? Sweet!
Maybe fix a note pad @ the base..."pls sign here if you want more bolts to this route"
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10 AM on a Saturday while at work my mind wanders.
So does this mean I can go out and rap bolt all those old McConachie and Holmgren projects? Those guys always picked good lines.
Hmm, I know of an old Chris Project only half way done....
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Maybe Mucci wants to come along?
Sure, but we both know that ain't gonna happen.
Oh, and if you meant a meeting with the head rap bolting cheerleader Bellizzi, no thanks.
I prefer to speak to those who are responsible for the drilling, not the ones responsible for running their mouths on the subject.
Once again, for all of you rap bolting lurkers:
Send me a message or give me a call, I am not hard to get a hold of.
OR don't, and hide behind your cowardice. No matter, your installments will be removed either way.
Josh Mucci
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Hi all your Masters of Mud.
First let's make some facts known.
We all have to coexist at the Pinnacles we love.
Can't we all do it in a civil manner?
Let's review previously rap-bolted routes
P.O.D by Myself
Cosmos,Cataract,Pistol Whipped,Buffalo Soldier by Mike Carvell
Lard Butt (incl, hold chipping) by Jimmy Thornburg
Ubermensch By Chris Sharma
Have these routes been chopped NO!
Then let's discuss the bolting of West of Sun as an example of a "NEW STANDARD FOR GROUND UP"
I had heard Chris S had top roped it so I went out on a couple of poor hooks and drilled the 1st bolt with NO BELAYER and potentially dangerous fall that could result in broken limb.
Vian approached me on a trip to Jailhouse about opening that route up.
I said fine do it in ground up style.
So Karl and Dereck did 8 bolts on top of mine till they were stopped cold in their tracks so the proceeded
TO RAP BOLT THE REMAINING 6 BOLTS.
SO that route is a rap route.
TOM Davis had long since abandoned those routes Vian finished via Top Down for over 15 years.
I feel bad about Adam not getting to do the route that Vian did but Carvell did routes that I wanted to do and in my opinion put the bolts in bad spots.Where as Vian placed the bolt exactly where they need to be.
What's a better route a poorly placed rap route or a rap route that has the bolts placed correctly.
These are the facts.
I have had no participation in ANY RAP BOLTING SINCE 1981.
So I think we need to all get together and have a meeting of the minds about this,
and who knows we might just enjoy talking about climbing and drink some beer.
To Josh Mucci whoever you are. I think you are just a rude ass punk.
You guys are the one SPRAYING for days about crap occurring at a climbing area considered by most of the world to be a PILE OF DUNG.
Someday you will come to realize that slighting people on the internet will come back to bite you.
GROW UP
Chris Bellizzi
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You guys are the one SPRAYING for days about crap occurring at a climbing area considered by most of the world to be a PILE OF DUNG.
Words hide true meanings and perceptions. Sometimes they show a love of the sport over a love of the field of play.
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Hi Chris,
Why did you write this?
Lard Butt (rap bolt incl, hold chipping) by Jimmy Thornburg
For the record, those bolts were placed by John Tuttle and someone else I can't remember. You should ask them how they put the bolts in. I never bothered to ask and still don't care. I did replace one of the mankier ones... was I supposed to do that on lead?
And hold chipping? Where did you get that idea? I'd really like to know... wait let me guess, does it start with "so and so said.... "
I'd appreciate your removing that part of your post since it is false on both counts. Though in the long run I guess it doesn't matter much to me what the 6 people reading this forum think.
One thing I will agree with you on is that the social atmosphere of the Pinnacles blows... nothing has changed in the last 25 years, still lots of egomanical tough guy talk from a small group of Pinnacles "locals" who feel it is their duty to tell everyone else how they should climb.
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Chris and Jim:
It's nice to see both of you here. Lemme respond to some of what you've each said (one at a time though, I've got to go to work):
Chris: Your post is somewhat strange in that you seem to be defending another person's acts?
From what I've gathered (with you by phone and on here), you didn't rap bolt these routes. I'm clear on that. And at least some parts of your post seem to disapprove of bolting that way at Pinnacles (you posted - seemingly as a point in your favor - that you haven't rap bolted since 1981; you also wrote that you told her to finish the routes ground up - really, really reassuring to hear you say both things).
But you defend her actions, or are at least trying to? I'm not as clear on whether you think what she did is acceptable. Do you?
Also, are you acting as her mouthpiece here, or speaking for yourself? Or both? She should join the discussion herself.
A few other questions about parts of your post that I don't understand:
1. One of your comments - "Tom Davis had long since abandoned those routes Vian finished via Top Down for over 15 years" - is really puzzling. Are you saying that since Tom abandoned the route (maybe he did) it's OK for her to do an act that flies in the face of a strong and enduring community consensus (one meant to, among other things, preserve a very small resource, i.e. limited quantities of Pinnacles rock).
Could you elaborate on the logic of this (if that is what you meant).
2. Your question: "What's a better route, a poorly placed rap route or a rap route that has the bolts placed correctly? " is also confusing. As I read the question I think that the word "rap" wasn't intended the first time? Aren't you trying to differentiate between routes placed on lead and on rap?
If I'm wrong, then the question doesn't make sense in a conversation of whether rap bolting is OK or not OK at Pinnacles.
If I am right - if you actually didn't intend to use the word "rap" the first time you did - then the answer to your question is as obvious to me as it is to you. But I doubt that our answers are the same. To me adventure is the biggest part of climbing and I also love the sport's history and traditions. I prefer any Pinnacles route put in ground up to any rap bolted route.
Your question was obviously meant to suggest the "right" answer by it's use of the words "placed correctly." But that answer is only "right" if one assumes that adventure and history and tradition are secondary values in climbing to absolute safety and gymnastic moves. I think that that is a really bad assumption (and one based on really shallow values- but that last part is me loading the issue my way).
As an example: in our many phone calls about climbing, I've told you that there is rock up here on this pass that is very much like that at Pinns. There is room for hundreds of routes on this rock. And yet I've made almost no effort to climb on this stuff. Why? Because without a shared value of adventure and history and tradition behind it, the Pinns-like rock up here is simply boring choss.
The values that your question assumes, are your values (and presumably your friend's). They aren't those of the people who love Pinnacles climbing.
3. In a much earlier thread Munge had wondered whether Vian knew ahead of time whether what she was doing would violate the strong community consensus against rap bolting at Pinnacles. It seems pretty clear that she did know this and that she made a conscience choice that what she wanted was more important than anything else in the world.
4. If your friend won't defend her own actions then I ask you to pass this along to her:
"Establishing a 5.13 sport climb isn't so cutting edge anymore. The best definition of a 'world class climber' is one who treads lightly on the rock, who respects other people and their values instead of putting what she wants and desires above all else, and who respects the location and context of a possible new route before breaking out the drill; all while climbing hard. The only one of those things that your friend did was climb hard.
Yawn.
If she really wants respect and fame, and a big name, then tell her to act accordingly. Until then, tell her to 'grow up.' "
5. As if adventure and history and tradition weren't enough reason to respect the no-rap-bolting ethic at Pinns, consider too the limited resource that is Pinnacles rock. I think you in particular understand just how limited the resource is since you've spent uncounted hours over decades tramping over all of the monument looking for, and establishing new climbs.
There are now over 900 routes at Pinnacles. How many more can be done? Some.
As I think you understand, one way to prevent using the resource up completely is to impose some limitations voluntarily. One obvious and intelligent such limitation is to limit the way routes go up. Again, this is just one more good reason to continue with and to respect an existing and strong local ethic.
6. Take my word for it: Mucci is no "rude ass punk." He's a damn good man. One with enduring values and respect for others. He is certainly a very good friend of mine.
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Nicely said Brad.
I think the message is pretty simple here.
Don't rap bolt at the Pinns.
Don't make any changes to existing routes or projects without the permision of the first ascender.
Respect local traditions in all climbing areas.
If anyone fails to follow local ethics, they should expect grief from area traditionalists - including having routes chopped.
I also wanted to speak up on behalf of Josh. In addition to his sense of humor - he is an ethical and a respectful person.
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"The values that your question assumes, are your values (and presumably your friend's). They aren't those of the people who love Pinnacles climbing."
Brad, you seem like a very intelligent person. I implore you to consider what you've written here. It assumes that you are in a position to judge the motives and values of all the people who climb at the Pinnacles. And I'm not talking about just those who put up first ascents.
Your Pinnacles climbing community and mine are very different, and I imagine Chris' community is different as well. I'm sure it was not your intention to suggest yours is the voice of all "people who love Pinnacles climbing".
For the record, I LOVE Pinnacles climbing. I bet Chris does too, and though I don't know her, Vian might well love it also.
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Jim,
I understand your comment. Still, I stand by mine.
I guess there are different levels of "love," and I differentiate between those who use Pinnacles to climb and have fun (and love the place), and those who have really, really embraced the place and all of the history and values that surround it. I admit that I inserted some of my own values and judgment into what I wrote.
Can we just agree that the part of my post that you quoted is hereby modified/explained by your and my additional comments?
I've got to run to depositions in hell (Lodi, to be precise), which means that I'll have to wait until tonight to respond too to your first post. The short version of my response is that your first post starts out by being a totally legit and fair set of comments, but the last - unneeded - part of your post is really mean-spirited and arrogant. Is that really you?
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Hey Brad I am stuck in Lodi( Hell) today. Give a call if you have time, I will PM phone.
Decent food in town, Mexican, Thai, Viet. Lots of good fruit and vegetable stands. Tomatoes are coming into season.
Jeff
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(http://www.mudncrud.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=63316&g2_serialNumber=1)
I feel more relaxed now. Please carry on your discussion.
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LOL - good to know/hear.
(Maybe that's why I prefer hanging out w/ dudes... ;D )
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One thing I will agree with you on is that the social atmosphere of the Pinnacles blows... nothing has changed in the last 25 years, still lots of egomanical tough guy talk from a small group of Pinnacles "locals" who feel it is their duty to tell everyone else how they should climb.
Here is some more love for "locals" from Jim on Climbing dot com
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A couple of Pinnacles locals were interrogating Yabo while he hung on a bolt, working on the first ascent of Hot Lava Lucy. The conversation went like this: Local: “How’d you get those bolts in?” Yabo: “On rappel.” Local: “Sounds pretty chickenshit to me.” Yabo: “Chickenshit? How ‘bout I come down there and show you chickenshit?” I thought that was pretty funny. -- http: // www. climbing. com/community/perspective/jim_thornburg-photographer/index1.html
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Yabo was a thug? ::)
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Aaron, how would you reply if you were out at the crags having a great time climbing with your friends and not bothering anyone and someone came up and unprovoked called you a chickenshit?
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I believe we can all agree "Climbing and not bothering anyone" is very different from bolting a route. First, I would never be presumptuous in assuming traditions and customs of a crag. If I were interested in putting up a new route, I would do my homework on the local area and traditions. I would find out what is locally acceptable and what is not. I might even talk with a few veterans (I know several "Pinnacles locals" and they are some of the finest people I have ever met.) I would think about how my actions and how those choices would affect future generations of climbers.
The “chickenshit” comment, although offensive, was well deserved under the circumstance that you describe. I would personally be very embarrassed if I had made such a mistake and figured out how to make things right.
Can you please explain your thought process on how it is acceptable to ignore the GU tradition at Pinnacles?
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I thought Yabo was a local?...
Had the pleasure to meet him but did not know him. I think Hot Lava Lucy would go Ground Up but I also think the Pins needs characters like Yabo.
It is a crazy world.
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Aaron,
There are many top-down routes at the Monolith, and if you were climbing around the Monolith in the 80s you would have met a lot of the people who put them up. In addition, you would have seen many more people climbing and enjoying the routes. I'm sure your Pinnacles climbing buddies are great people, and I can see you are a loyal friend, but if you think the rules you've chosen to climb by entitle you to call other climbers names and threaten to chop their routes, then yes, I think it's great when you get the same treatment back.
Top down routes on the Monolith:
POD
Hawaiian Noises
Cantalope Death
Hot Lava Lucy
Yo Mamma
Ubermensch
Lard Butt
Cataract Corner
West of the Sun
Ranger Bolts
Am I right in stating that about half or more of the routes put up on the Monolith since 1985 are rappel bolted? So if you tell me that my experience that top-down is a valid, established way to climb on the Monolith is wrong you just seem crazy to me. That is the consensus of your friends and partners, not mine.
I believe with all my heart that the people who put these routes up did so with the intention that they and others could enjoy them, and I think history has shown that their intentions have come to fruition. It's your assumption or judgement that there is some sort of law that's been broken.
For the record, I have never placed a new bolt in the Pinnacles, rappel or otherwise, I have enjoyed clipping them though and would really hate to see any chopped.
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The voice of reason has spoken....
I also think the Pins needs characters like Yabo
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How you climb is far more important and memorable than what you finally get up - in whatever fashion. Rappel bolted routes just don't matter.
Waldo,
I now understand. My bad.
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@Jim
I started climbing at the Pins late mid 80's. Was at the first bolters meeting and remember when I stated that I thought there should be no rap bolting at the Pins and no chipping, being told that my opinion did not matter since I had not really done anything (this was not said by you). Now many years later I can say beyond any doubt that I have done more routes there than you, put up more routes there than you (your probably right they all suck), and done more hard routes there than you (if you include 11's and 12's, yes you have done harder routes). Does this mean that my opinion has more weight than yours? He may not have been climbing there in 1982 but his opinions are valid.
Of the routes that you listed at least half could have been bolted ground up and would have been just as good. I have heard countless 10a climbers complain about the 3rd bolt on Cantaloupe and have heard even more complaints about Hawaiian Noises. The first clip on Hot Lava Lucy is crazy high and it is a rare soul that does it without pre-protecting her first move. Yo Mama gets little to no traffic because it is so freaking hard and there is serious fear of blowing a clip and decking on one of the boulders below the climb. West of the Sun, that FA team gave an all out effort to go ground up and is responsible for putting up the hardest ground up 5.12 in the Monument.
There are always "locals" that influence the climbing styles at an area. They might state that you can only use knots, only put up hard routes, have to bolt the cracks. As far as Pins "locals" being rude I remember climbing at Jailhouse and having some famous "local" guy threaten me for clipping in and hanging from a protection draw instead of a dog draw. He was going to "kick me out". So even rap bolting sport climbing area's have rude locals it is not a Pins thing.
Of the rap routes that you list they were done by Bellizzi, Carville, Chapman, Yabo, Sharma, Thornburg and Karl. Chris has not done another rap bolted route, that I know of, and has fairly strong ethics (he almost always goes for the lead and tends to work routes ground up). Sharma chose to TR the routes that started this instead of rap bolting them and Karl has done more in the last couple of years to push the standard of ground up ascents at the Pins than anyone else.
I would not want to see rap bolting become the standard because at that point anything can be bolted. Just look at some of the stuff that Richards rap bolted. Monolith is close to being grid bolted how it is. With rap bolting we could get 20 more routes on Discovery Wall and all with good intentions.
EDIT:
Modiified to read the 3rd bolt instead of 2nd bolt on Cantaloupe.
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Hey Brad I am stuck in Lodi( Hell) today. Give a call if you have time, I will PM phone.
Decent food in town, Mexican, Thai, Viet. Lots of good fruit and vegetable stands. Tomatoes are coming into season.
Jeff
Oh. Shit. I just got home only to see that I'm caught, busted dead to rights on a flip comment.
Actually Jeff, I've got nothing against the Central Valley. I lived in Modesto for seven years and met the most wonderful woman there. It's really the drive up and back that's a bear (come on Brad, keep back peddling... faster).
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No worries just wanted you to stop by for dinner. No idea what your deposition was about but if it was with the city attorney he is a friend of mine. We could have gone out or as you know I can cook. My wife is flying back from the East Cast tonight and my daughter is in Santa Cruz so it is just the boy and I. Tonight was left over BBQ cold chicken with chimichurri sauce and caprese salad with mostly local ingredients with a local white wine. (http://www.bokischvineyards.com/ (http://www.bokischvineyards.com/)) My son went with grilled cheese and organic (not that he cares at all) carrots. I also would have sent you back with some zucchini grown in our small back yard. Yes, in some way we are hell but always a few degrees cooler than north or south of us with a delta breeze, and two hours away from everywhere. Let me know if you come back and yes the drive sucks.
I also agree with everything you say about The Pinnacles but in some ways I don't feel my opinion is valid because I am just a .9-.10 climber.
Cheers Jeff
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I've got to run to depositions in hell (Lodi, to be precise)
I'm assuming you had CCR qued on the car stereo
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...as you know I can cook...
Lodi sounds like heaven to me, but I guess sometimes, heaven is not most conveniently located.
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Uncle Stinky, one of the issues at play here, though mostly unstated is whether if we apply the top down ethic to "hard" routes, why not apply the top down ethic to easy routes? As Brad stated, many of us believe in preserving at least one place in the State of California that has almost all gone ground up, and many by stance. So your opinion does count, especially as a new router yourself!
Jim T.
Thanks for speaking up here! You are right, there are multiple communities of users. Though admittedly the community of new routers is limited to probably about 6 of us ;) :)
I'd like to use your comment as a starting point for a digital meeting of the minds here...
I would not want to see rap bolting become the standard because at that point anything can be bolted.
The below is not directed to you specifically, but to anyone that cares to listen to my opinion.
And I think that's what is at issue is the "becoming" aspect. Have we finally hit a point where enough top down activity is occurring that it's influencing others to do top down style. Erectile Dysfunction went in top down at 5.9 as I understand it. Clint C. reached out, and there wasn't another top down from that group/person since. The tied seemed stemmed at that point.
But Mucci's point is one of legitimation. Does leaving prior top-down routes in place legitimize additional top down routes because there is a fear of "scarring" the rock, having "bolt wars" pissing off land managers? Yes, I think it does both legitimize additional top down routes because the evidence of the route lasting over time and enjoyed by the "community" seems to outweigh the danger of scarring, bolt wars and pissing off land managerss. But what else is to be done? How else does one stem the flow of top down activity? Make a new rule and try to enforce it? If I was into top down routes on a regular basis, I would tell all super strong climbers that my top downing 5.4 and other routes was fully justified by their top down elite routes in the 12 or higher range.
I think the other top down routes at Pinns remained SOLELY as a result of the meeting of the minds that occurred in the 80s. Ostensibly there was agreement to leave existing routes in place. GOING FORWARD that agreement would NOT prevent removal of top down routes established after the 80s meeting of the minds. Theoretically that could include Ubermensch and Yo Mama, but I have no interest in modifying those personally.
West of the Son would be the test route, I think. Clearly there is a strong tradition of ground up ethics at Pinnacles. Most routes are established this way. Hard routes are established this way, whether one is Higgins, Mr Mud, McConachie, Atomizer, Mittens, Gagner or Belizzi.
I think there is sufficient vocal opposition that Vian's new line might be ripe for removal. In fact, that is my vote. Again, I'm not saying all routes down top down since the 80s need removal, but we can no longer idly sit by and watch the preservation of an ethic be eroded even if it is at a very difficult level or put in by very talented climbers.
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Hi Robert,
I appreciate a lot of what you say, and I think it's reasonable, in theory at least, to cast your vote.
I think there is a problem with taking a vote here on Mud n Crud. This is a site for Pinnacles ground-up first ascentionists and their friends.
If we agree that there are different Pinnacles communities, I would point out that there are three, at least in application to the topic at hand.
There are the rap-bolting FAists - I think we can agree this group is the smallest .... less than 10 people?
There are the GU first ascenders - this group is bigger, but still tiny... 25 people?
The biggest group... in the 1000s? are the climbers who don't put up first ascents and just want to go climb at the Pinnacles. They might come on here to check for raptor closure info, but I doubt they care to look at this thread.
I think my Pinnacles FA days are over, but I love to climb there and I want to go try Vian's route. Like you, I don't think the grade or how hard you climb matters. It looks like a cool route, one I've wanted to try for over 20 years but didn't because I knew it would bug Tom D, who I like very much. It's a bummer he was finally getting psyched to try it again, but the ground up crew had this route reserved for 24 years.
If someone is going to chop it, PLEASE put it back right away. It's proud you guys do FAs ground-up, but don't lose sight of your real contribution to Pinnacles climbing: establishing routes for OTHERS to enjoy.
There is only one FA - it's a lot of fun for the person who does it - but it's the 10s or 100s or 1000s of ascents that follow that really matter.
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I do not think there are 1,000's of people that climb at the Pins. Perhaps 1,000's over the course of decades. I have climbed there regularly and it seems I see the same folks year after year.
The thing with this route is there were other folks other than Tom that were looking at bolting this route ground up and they had the talent to do it. They had even posted their intent on the forum.
Erectile Dysfunction is an example of bad bolting that was done on rap.
Most of the popular routes in the Pins were put up ground up.
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There is only one FA - it's a lot of fun for the person who does it - but it's the 10s or 100s or 1000s of ascents that follow that really matter.
This is a tougher question. It only really matters if others want to repeat the line, which speaks to the quality of the line. The risk of using a community based vote is that many many of the climbers that use Pinns (as opposed to establishing routes there) don't appreciate the values and history of Pinns. The sample set is likely biased in favor of those that learned in a gym and still haven't come to appreciate Pinnacles for what it is. Over time they might, but if we continue to do top down routes, they might never appreciate it since the ethics will be compromised over time instead of being an exemplar area. Pinns is truly unique in that it is ground up, but also bolted face climbing, IMHO a great way to expose newbies to the tradition and broaden their experience.
If someone is going to chop it, PLEASE put it back right away. It's proud you guys do FAs ground-up, but don't lose sight of your real contribution to Pinnacles climbing: establishing routes for OTHERS to enjoy.
that would be ideal. Anyone know if they are wedges or sleeve bolts? If sleeves, we could re-use the hole. Not exactly the same as re-drilling, but could still be exciting to try and get them back in those holes.
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Mud,
My point exactly, it doesn't matter if it was GU or TD. Just make good routes. Arguing that one way will get it right and one won't is ridiculous, though.
You said:
"there were other folks other than Tom that were looking at bolting this route ground up"
I don't understand this argument. I've "looked" at 100s of unclimbed routes - that doesn't reserve them for me and me only. If 24 years isn't long enough to have dibs on a route, what is?
And you said:
"I do not think there are 1,000's of people that climb at the Pins"
There most certainly are, just ask Brad Young how many guidebooks he's sold and you'll have a start.
"They had even posted their intent on the forum"
Why were they posting when they could have been getting after it? If I could put up routes by "posting" I'd be the greatest climber who ever lived.
Robert,
You said:
"still haven't come to appreciate Pinnacles for what it is"
I still believe statements like this reflect your version of what Pinnacles climbing is (a version supported by lots of people who use this site), but it doesn't reflect what I (for instance) love about Pinnacles climbing.
In any case, I'm glad we are in agreement that chopping the route only to leave it chopped would not be ideal (I think it would suck). According to Chris Belizzi the bolts as they stand are in good spots, hopefully the chopper will also put them back in good spots. I just tried to explain this to non-climbing friend... "well there are already bolts in the route, but someone wants to take them out and then put them back in a way that their community approves of.." She just shook her head and said "whoa, climber's are WIERD!" ;)
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Jim,
Obviously I disagree with you, but still, I'm very pleased that you're posting here, and thanks for a very reasonable attitude and approach.
I disagree with the numbers you use in your last post, but the general idea of "three categories of climbers" is right on.
However, I think you're in error in at least two ways that matter.
First, I think you are flat wrong in trying to describe what the majority of of climbers ("non-first ascentionists") who climb at Pinns want and/or admire. I don't know your politics, but your comment reeks of Richard Nixon's embracing "the Great Silent Majority" to support his views on the Vietnam war and other events of the early 1970s.
My experience is that many of the climbers who are of "the middle" lean toward admiring the ethics and traditions of Pinnacles. As an example, the several non-first ascentionists who post here seem to feel this way, but then again, they are obviously not an average sample.
Perhaps it's most accurate to say that the majority in the middle just don't care about just another route they could never climb. This really isn't the "middle's" dispute and they aren't your "silent majority."
Second, I continue to disagree with (what I perceive as) an inference that "fun" is the greatest value in climbing. I think there are lots of values in climbing, and adventure (which is also fun in and of itself) is at least as high in importance. Can't Pinnacles remain one place in California with a strong ethic and tradition? Do all climbing locales have to have rap bolted routes designed for the masses? Does every climbing location have to be at the lowest common denominator?
How do you feel about Americans who go to Paris and demand the right to eat at McDonalds?
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The question of whether Tom still had a "claim" to the route shouldn't properly be part of this discussion; it's a different issue.
Hell, I was certain enough that it was abandoned (Clint was too) that I put that in the book (maybe I should have checked with Tom, but there's already so much work to do to get a book together...).
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^^^
Agreed. My point is more that it's been an obvious challenge sitting there with a big arrow (the bottom bolts) for a very long time. Adam (is that who Atomizer is?) was around back in the day (though he was a youngster) It's a shame he didn't do it sooner and then this argument (about this particular route anyway) wouldn't be happening.
I'm also sure I don't fully understand how hard it would be to do that route ground up. I did all the moves on tr around 1990 and could see why Tom hadn't gotten any higher GU. I so wanted to (rap) bolt it but didn't out of respect for Tom and fear of the shitstorm it would brew.
The back of the Monolith is such an obvious target for awesome routes I'm not surprised that someone couldn't resist. Those routes have been fallow for so long with no attempts that I'm aware of? While I was respectful of your guys wishes, I'd always walk back there hoping to see the bolts up a little higher or to the top. I felt resentful that those routes had to just sit there without anyone even trying them.
Now that it's bolted, I really want to try it! I might be too old to send it though....
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Brad,
You asked:
"How do you feel about Americans who go to Paris and demand the right to eat at McDonalds?"
Are you hoping I'll incriminate my lame-sport climbing self by saying something like "Hell Yeah it's my right to eat at McDonalds in Paris and rap bolt at The Pinnacles?"
First, that's not what I think or do.
Second if you want to use that analogy, then what would the chopping equivalent be? Blowing up McDonalds in Paris with a bomb? Would I then try to rebuild it in a way I see as more appropriate? That actually sounds pretty good, but I think I'd end up in jail.
And for the record, I have not rap bolted in the Pinns, but I have enjoyed french fries at the McDonalds across the street from my daughter's apartment in Paris.
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And for the record, I have not rap bolted in the Pinns, but I have enjoyed french fries at the McDonalds across the street from my daughter's apartment in Paris.
Very nice Jim. As much as I appreciate this thread, the thoughts of being in Paris now are better.
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The reason they did not jump earlier is they were actually conscienious enough to find out what was going on with the route.
I went to France and did not bother with Paris so I have no idea if there is a McDonalds there. Why go to Paris when you can go to Verdon?
Of course when I went to England I did not go to London. Why go to London when you can go to the Peak District?
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The reason they did not jump earlier is they were actually conscienious enough to find out what was going on with the route.
I went to France and did not bother with Paris so I have no idea if there is a McDonalds there. Why go to Paris when you can go to Verdon?
Of course when I went to England I did not go to London. Why go to London when you can go to the Peak District?
my mouth is on the floor....either of these statements is enough to bag my head. For the people of course!
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And for the record, I have not rap bolted in the Pinns, but I have enjoyed french fries at the McDonalds across the street from my daughter's apartment in Paris.
LOL! dig it!
"Shitstorm" - yep, but that's the only way to make hay and raise awareness, if folks only ever see bolts, and not the "how" of things get created. Sorry to leverage your posts Jim. You are doing a good job making the minority position arguments (of first ascenders), so I think we're working off of your arguments to shine light on the ground up arguments in the absence of the actual FA'er for the route in question.
Brad wrote...
"Perhaps it's most accurate to say that the majority in the middle just don't care about just another route they could never climb. This really isn't the "middle's" dispute and they aren't your "silent majority.""
Brad, I think they could be the silent majority, but only if we take the next step of making lots of sport bolted lines at Pinnacles. The only way to do that would be to accelerate the rate at which routes go in, vis a vis, top down approaches at all levels. But I think Jim agreed below, that is not what we want.
In my first post in this thread, I indicated it was a partisan type of issue. That leads to a false dichotomy option in a way; either you are for top down styles of attaching fixed gear or you are ground up. I still think it's partisan. The only difference, and to avoid a false dichotomy of choices is to say at some point one style needs to stop and make it an actual dichotomy. If there is no disincentive to prevent top down and promote ground up, then top down seems much more reasonable, especially when couched in terms of safety and greatest number of users benefitting from the outcome. The difficult routes just become the exemplars for justifying a change from the tradition.
Wouldn't there need to be a disincentive at some point to maintain the tradition? Or is anyone willing to say unequivocally that the tradition should be changed at Pinnacles for all routes, all grades, etc?
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Robert,
Your post could be boiled down to "we're going to chop and harass and bully people who don't climb the way we do until they agree with us or leave".
Is that accurate?
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Jim,
Isn't that what Rap bolters do? Rap bolters will not be happy until rap bolting is accepted everywhere. They do not want a single tradition climbing area. All areas have to be open to rap bolters or they will continually harass, bully until all agree or leave.
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I don't think they have done that at the Pinnacles.
I can think of lots of areas where the two styles coexist, but none where GU climbers are pushed out, harassed or forbidden. Do you know some areas like this?
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Robert,
Your post could be boiled down to "we're going to chop and harass and bully people who don't climb the way we do until they agree with us or leave".
Is that accurate?
Mischaracterization for sure.
Chop is technically inaccurate, though we can use the word as a placeholder. Basically remove and patch, or potentially remove and re-place GU.
"Harass" is completely wrong. We're having an intelligent discussion about the future of the limited rock in Pinnacles and many of us are not likely to accept further top down efforts in the short and long term.
"Bully" is outright wrong. Unless of course placing the bolts top down is also viewed as bullying as well.
No one has to agree with me, but neither do they need to place bolts top down. Strong climbers have top roped the lines. There is no need to Top Down to establish gear if safety is paramount. If it's just about leading them with a modicum of a fall possible, then I would urge that's not sufficient a reason to turn the direction of the tide (sorry for the misspell of this word above) at this one place that seems to maintain a strong tradition, ethic, history and values tied to ground up methods.
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The point is rap bolters absolutely have to have rap bolting everywhere.
Traditional climbing areas are verboten.
I don't think they have done that at the Pinnacles.
I can think of lots of areas where the two styles coexist, but none where GU climbers are pushed out, harassed or forbidden. Do you know some areas like this?
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I can think of lots of areas where the two styles coexist, but none where GU climbers are pushed out, harassed or forbidden.
The fallacy in this argument is saying that the physical GU FAist would be pushed out (to another crag or whathaveyou)
But if GU is partly (or wholly) about preserving a limited recourse, then the use of rap bolting effectively denies the ability of GU philosophy to preserve. In that way, the GU FAist are not pushed out, but by "pushing out" the limited resources, the effect is the same.
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I don't think they have done that at the Pinnacles.
I can think of lots of areas where the two styles coexist, but none where GU climbers are pushed out, harassed or forbidden. Do you know some areas like this?
I can't think of areas where GU climbers are "pushed" out bodily, but their opportunities for quality lines are diminished by the rapidity of which top down routes go in (mostly I'm thinking of the special case of motorized-allowed areas).
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rap is easier whether using a hand drill or motorized drill. No thought is needed to rap bolt, a person just raps in scrubs and bolts. Whole different game with going ground up. Look at Richards rap bolted 13. No way that happens with a ground up ascent.
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rap is easier whether using a hand drill or motorized drill. No thought is needed to rap bolt, a person just raps in scrubs and bolts. Whole different game with going ground up. Look at Richards rap bolted 13. No way that happens with a ground up ascent.
Yer being funny right??? It takes still to setup top down, just the same as going up. Either way the route can get screwed.
Come on out to the E-Front and I can teach you some tricks.... ;D ;D
In South Africa, there are examples of both the topdown and ground up....Montague has routes that are top down....and it's a known sport area. Trad climbing isn't allowed!!
Then there's Table Mtn...where NO bolts are used for pro.
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It takes skill or at least thought to put up a good route using either approach. But to just put up a route it is way easier on rap. The only skill that is necessary to rap bolt is the ability to build an anchor.
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Yer gonna die fer sure, though. Remember that, anyway...!!! ???
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I haven't read this site in some time, but just checked in and saw this thread. Anyway, I want to clarify what Chris B. distorted about "West of Sun". I have clearly stated this previously here http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1537.msg16800#msg16800 (http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1537.msg16800#msg16800), but here is the a quick summary.
The first 10 bolts were placed ground up. The next bolt would have only been possible by creating a bolt ladder, so after longer deliberation, we opted to rap in. We placed only four bolts on rappel. Then, over the next few days, we placed the last three bolts on lead.
I know that many of you could care less, but I didn't like the way Chris made it seem like we just put in a few bolts, threw in the towel and rap bolted the rest.
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We still love yah!
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I think it is good that you clarified.
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Those of us who care already knew what had happened. Chris got a little careless with his facts.
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I had forgotton just how many bolts total were put in GU. thx
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Karl,
Chris is just hawking the rap bolt propaganda... of course he skews the facts.
My view is changing after reading the new Alpinist about the Cerro Torre controversy.
May be the bolts should just be left in... if they aren't already gone.
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Karl,
Chris is just hawking the rap bolt propaganda... of course he skews the facts.
My view is changing after reading the new Alpinist about the Cerro Torre controversy.
May be the bolts should just be left in... if they aren't already gone.
These aren't historical artifact climbs. The point is to prevent them from becoming that, else an Antiquities like approach to artifacts would mean acceptance.
Much like the NPS doesn't want us to throw out garbage from the 20s when found on a hillside, but they sure don't want everyone leaving their pilsner cans out in the meadows just so others can find them in another 100 years or so.
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The antiquities act also covers historical culture and practices. Yosemite recently chopped down lots of trees to restore the views at major viewpoints back to the 1930's standard. The called that a "historic view shed"
I know that people don't normally debate the Antiquities Act in this manner but from my experience working in Yosemite I can tell you that there is relevance to my arguement if debated in a legal forum.
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Then we go back to knickers, hemp ropes and heavy boots.
And hip belays.
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What F4 you dont use that stuff at the pinns already?
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Sheesh, I better hurry up and grid bolt the back of the Monolith before all these rap bolters beat me to it. Pretty soon there will be nothing left back there. Does anyone have some extra chain for the fixed draws? What's the standard distance between bolts? Six feet or so? Anyone know how many square feet is back there? I want to make sure I have enough bolts and drill bits before I get started. Imagine all the link ups and traverses there will be!
This is going to make rap bolting look so antiquated!
Everyone will love me and my routes!
I'll let you know you all know when my PayPal account is up so I can receive your donations for hardware and my invested time.
Edit: Atomizer, thanks for bringing this up again. I've seen the chalk over there while on Ranger Bolts but didn't know it was completed. I also didn't know about Miscegenation so I'll have to go do it this week. Hopefully you're not into sandbagging grades.
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What F4 you dont use that stuff at the pinns already?
Have you ever used Mr Muds rope for a TR...I think it was hemp or old enough..
I'll have to give squiddo a hip belay sometimes. Just for fun.
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My knickers are in a trunk in the garage. They no longer fit.
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This was just posted over on the Facebook Mud n'crud page by Mittens in relation to Bellizi's inquiry about who is going to chop the two routes in question.
I forgot to mention, but I got on this route a while back. I broke 2 key holds (among others) and generally felt that it was poorly bolted. There is a huge jug before the final crux boulder problem and the crux bolt is impossible to clip from it, even with a prehung draw. Instead you have to clip off of very suspect, crimpy knobs. Definitely a rap bolt specialty. The climbing is not very sustained, with hard boulder problems between fat rests with huge edges. Would have gone on hooks super easily. Much more easily than daddy long legs, vigilante, or other hard ground up testpieces. I also rapped down the "project" and I'm 90% sure that the crux crimp is chiseled. Now, I'm not the style police- I enjoy climbing hard rap bolted routes as much as the next sportf@*k (as Angelo would say), but I will readily make the distinction between well an poorly bolted routes. If a route is bolted logically so as to maximize the utility of all who climb it, all is well (even if established on rap). I feel like these routes were poorly bolted, and the crag is worse off for it.
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what's the link for the Mudn'Crud Facebook Page?
edit: Mucci let me in. Thanks guys. Now we're facebook official!
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It's private, if you add me as a friend I can than add you. Or Mungeclimber can add you too. I shouldn't be too hard to find. Adam Long
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That Mittens is a beast. Has he lead UberMunch yet?
Sad to hear about the bolting jobs, oh well I think time will take care of that.
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which route?
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Mittens hasn't done ubermensh yet or Ranger Bolts, but neither have I...
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GETRDONE
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Found this today and read a bit of it.
One thing I will agree with you on is that the social atmosphere of the Pinnacles blows... nothing has changed in the last 25 years, still lots of egomanical tough guy talk from a small group of Pinnacles "locals" who feel it is their duty to tell everyone else how they should climb.
If 25 years hasn't changed the culture, it will likely prevail for the next couple hundred.
If you rapbolt at Pinnacles may the cold wind of the social atmosphere that "blows" always be at your back.
Rules? Well for me. No chipping (except at quarries or fitting rocks in masonry). No chopping bolts, (Who made you God?), in my book as bad as chipping. If a FA can be done by stance, do it on stance. If a route can possibly be done ground up, do it ground up. Stay away from the hospital and out of the morgue. The #1 rule is, rules are made to be broken.
Pinnacles has a history of the coolest and most awesome rap bolting trashy climbers on the planet, and a whole hell of a lot(thank God) of great ground up routes. Glad I climb there.
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Rules? Well for me. No chipping... No chopping bolts..., in my book as bad as chipping.
Care to expand on this ethical comparison? If bolts are "chopped" and the mangled remains are left out like a corpse to fester, I can see your point of view. What about proper chopping where the bolt is pulled, the hole is patched, and usually (one can argue) the slow slide down that slippery slope is prevented for one more day? (I tried to hide my own feelings about this... did it work?)
No chopping bolts, (Who made you God?)
Pinnacles has ... a whole hell of a lot (thank God) of great ground up routes. Glad I climb there.
I'm not sure if I caught the joke, caught the troll, or just caught the irony. Without answering "who" made the bolt chopper a god, you did manage to thank said god for the very routes that exist because local ethic (and action) prevented anyone from rapping in to bolt those testpieces into a nice, safe, outdoor gym.
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Yesh
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Can't we just get along?
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What about proper chopping where the bolt is pulled, the hole is patched, and usually (one can argue) the slow slide down that slippery slope is prevented for one more day? (I tried to hide my own feelings about this... did it work?)
As in Wall of Early Morning Light and The Compressor Route? Is P.O.D. chopped yet? Why is it the self righteous bastards are the ones that end up chopping. Or is it the chopping that makes them dicks? I personally put in bolts ground up and only drilled on stance, and detest chippers and choppers and raw onions.
In my glorious youth and at the height of my stance induced resentment toward ground up climbers who placed bolts from hooks, I admit to considering chopping every route in the Pinns that wasn't done to my all wise and knowing personal style. Not wanting to be a complete ass-O I reconsidered.
As for explaining the 2 references to God, the first was a mortal who thinks he is the Great Judge and Executor. The second is the Almighty who rewards the faithful(especially ground up stance climbers) Just my opinion.
In the Pinnacles the community has let higher difficulty rap bolted routes be, but discouraged the practice.. The prevailing ground up ethic stands as the prefered means to establish a new route, and the vast majority of FAs are GU. This is the climbing history of Pinnacles National Park-you-meant.
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We do all get along. That doesn't mean we can't debate a few points though.
Nice post Kevin, nice post.
(And, just in case people aren't aware, Clink is the literal inheritor of the extremely proud Tom Higgins/Jack Holmgren sense of first ascent style - he's created many, many routes at Pinns and always done them with a strict "free-stance" only ethic. Having said that though, I'm not sure where his post is coming from either; maybe he will expand.)
EDIT: Oh, he did. I'll read that now.
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raw onions.
Really? You don't like to cry?
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Oh shucks, caught again.
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... Why is it the self righteous bastards are the ones that end up chopping. Or is it the chopping that makes them dicks?
Are they? I don't think so. The only bolt removal ("chopping" isn't the right word) that I am aware of in the last ten years at Pinnacles was done quietly and invisibly. How can a person be self righteous without a peep about what they've done?
... In the Pinnacles the community has let higher difficulty rap bolted routes be, but discouraged the practice.. The prevailing ground up ethic stands as the prefered means to establish a new route, and the vast majority of FAs are GU. This is the climbing history of Pinnacles National Park-you-meant.
This is all true. And it is all in the past ("history").
In a more recent sense, after years and years of "discouragement," of the vast majority (vast) of first ascentionists there establishing a norm, some people made choices such that their own desires/glory/values mattered more than what a whole community wanted and had agreed to. Self righteous? Dicks?
So others acted quietly, letting their desires and values govern their actions.
I see, at worst, equivalence, and at best, quiet, concerned actors seeking to quash self righteous (arrogant, selfish) dicks.
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I see, at worst, equivalence, and at best, quiet, concerned actors seeking to quash self righteous (arrogant, selfish) dicks.
Metaphornication.
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The bolts are gone.
I didn't do it.
And nobody knows who.
Good stuff here. But I'm moving to somewhere that power drills and rap bolting are allowed. I just want to put up good routes. Style doesn't matter in the larger sense for me.
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Thanks for the discussion, and yes I can take it as well as dish it out.
I hope I haven't offended any of you with my views on chopping.
If bolts are removed on routes that were manufactured(chiseled), unredpointed lines per the details described, then it doesn't matter.
Removal of a rouge bolt placed on an existing line is understandable. For instance if some one placed an additional protection bolt on Dos Equis I would probably remove it myself, quietly.
Route removal is a different thing.
Hypothetically (hypocritically),
Today I woke up in an arrogant mood. I am going to start a "fair means" ascent of an existing route that I had eyed as possible by stance, but was done by hanging on hooks to place protection bolts on this free line. My reasoning is the same as this,The fallacy in this argument is saying that the physical GU FAist would be pushed out (to another crag or whathaveyou)
But if GU is partly (or wholly) about preserving a limited recourse, then the use of rap bolting effectively denies the ability of GU philosophy to preserve. In that way, the GU FAist are not pushed out, but by "pushing out" the limited resources, the effect is the same.
The feeling was mutual among fs climbers, watching routes go up in a week that would have been multi month(or year) long projects by free stance "fair means" ethics.
The interesting fact of the above argument it was the guys hanging from hooks that did the most to preserve the Park from becoming a sport playground by adapting a fierce ground up ethic applied to difficult FAs that the natural, better quality rock allowed.Rich and co.
Others produced great routes by both styles.
Tradition, tradition. Here we are today at this point of evolution and I may even get over myself, or not.
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I can understand the intent to show that hooks versus stance is a similar argument to GU versus Rap in order to point to the shifting dynamics of community perception over time, but I was unaware that there was a strong or vocal (since those two are not always one and the same) opinion of hooks being an unacceptable method of GU by the Pinnacles community.
IMO the argument is about what the climbing community as a whole seems currently AND historically comfortable with and rap bolting seems to be something that only the self-important and arrogant seem comfortable with both currently and historically at the Pinns.
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The goal of putting up "Good" routes is laudable, but 'good' is too hard of a goal to me. It is a passion for me. Some are good, some aren't. My experience and those of my friends are tantamount, but with that said the ground up principle of Robbins is the guiding principle. It didn't dictate specifics, i.e. required free stance. Free does not always trump aid as a principle and thus can't be universally appealed to. Yes, I like free. I like aid too. So I go GU, with aid trickery shenanigans and have the most fun possible at a game that is one of many.
Top down unfortunately is incompatible with trying to preserve the limited resource at an area that has agreed to preserve the ground up ethic.
There isn't an absolute. It's just an interested community wanting to preserve one FINAL area in California (Yosemite is no longer a bastion of ethics).
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(Yosemite is no longer a bastion of ethics).
No, it is def not.
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but I was unaware that there was a strong or vocal (since those two are not always one and the same) opinion of hooks being an unacceptable method of GU by the Pinnacles community.
Mostly special needs, microcosm particle of the locals. Still alive and kicking and infecting the less than normal.
Hooking is a legit GU means at Pinns.
Top down unfortunately is incompatible with trying to preserve the limited resource at an area that has agreed to preserve the ground up ethic.
There isn't an absolute. It's just an interested community wanting to preserve one FINAL area in California (Yosemite is no longer a bastion of ethics).
In the words of the Invisible Man "Just to be clear"
Yes
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Hooking is a legit GU means at Pinns.
CLINK!
Since when????? Why did you pound all of my hooks flat when we did our first FA at Pinns?
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Quote
One thing I will agree with you on is that the social atmosphere of the Pinnacles blows...
I know I have only been climbing for a couple of years but where is all this social blowing occurring? How come I never get invited to these things?
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I will try and start spending more time down there. Just is not the same without me.
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social "blowing"?
Aaron, what, if I may pry, are you referring to?
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Well ground up or top down or 1/2 down, then up and to the side.....what matters is the end product.
To me it's about creating something that folks will enjoy.
Now, I am thankful that WetKiss was stolen from Mr. Mud. Evidently, he was going from the bottom up on natural gear...while others were going from the top (gulp) down....Yikes!
If it had been done from the bottom on natural gear I would not have a route to look cool on. I'd be scared doing them mantels with a cam behind a flake.
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To me it's about creating something that folks will enjoy.
Wow - I wish other people had kept that in mind over the years. I might not have PTPD.
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I will try and start spending more time down there. Just is not the same without me.
Truer words were never spoken.
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I will try and start spending more time down there. Just is not the same without me.
Pick me up on the way down. I can belay Mud Worm.
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wet kiss was bolted ground up
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wet kiss was bolted ground up
At least it was bolted!
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one of the bolts on Wet Kiss was added after the fact, no?
"creating something that folks will enjoy"
I really cringe at this statement when it becomes pervasive either for a person or group or area.
I don't want all routes to be super well protected, and thus more than likely not enjoyable.
Some routes shouldn't be enjoyed, but should be suffered through.
And I don't want all routes to be death routes. I'm not afraid of adding steel. Though, all retrobolts approved by the FAist, should be PINK hangers.
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I think one was added post completion.
Pink for retro, I like it.
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yup and you will enjoy Los Banditos....modest 5.9
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Some routes shouldn't be enjoyed, but should be suffered through.
And I don't want all routes to be death routes. I'm not afraid of adding steel. Though, all retrobolts approved by the FAist, should be PINK hangers.
This is funny dude.
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well, not all of it was meant to be funny.
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The feeling was mutual among fs climbers, watching routes go up in a week that would have been multi month(or year) long projects by free stance "fair means" ethics.
Who were the other "free stance" climbers that expressed this mentality Clink? At pinnacles specifically?
I know guys like higgins, Hensel, McCabe are known for primarily stance drilling around California.
I do feel that equating hooking to rap bolting is tough sell, but can see the logic in the "time" reference. Few at the far end of FA spectrum would consider such tactics as infringing the "usable resource", as most hooking seen on FA's are in places most cannot drill.
Of course there are exceptions and examples.
However, we are still talking about a ground up style, not "installing" on the way down, 2 routes a day, etc...
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Mucci has done two routes a day pace, ground up. NO KIT!
sorry, I digress.
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Who were the other "free stance" climbers that expressed this mentality Clink? At pinnacles specifically?
Walton, Holmgren, Bryant, Martin, Norris, Arthur and Cochran(me) were all subscribers to this sect.
To explain why I have continued to "free stance" my answer would be Jack Holmgren's passion for it. He viewed it as a purist-one way style and practiced it as art.
I am afraid that Aaron is convinced that stance climbers get double the virgins in the afterlife. He took to it last year with drive that reminds me of my predecessors.
Catholics and Baptists, or today simmered down to with cream and sugar or black, I feel privileged to be part of the GU Mudncrud climbers.
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Right, I forgot many of those names.
Holmgren liked to snag FFA's in pins around the mid 80's, so there was a plus side to letting the hookers and aid climbers do the dirty work.
Bezerker route is one that comes to mind.
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hookers and aid climbers
Ha! Exactly Jack's sentiments.
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Jim does stance when ever possible. I think he does some hooking but goes mostly stance. I was impressed to watch him stance drill from a shifting load stone with his feet 6 to 8 feet above the last bolt and that bolt was about 12 feet above a ledge. He did the entire bolt standing on that one foot. It was steep. He limped for a little bit.
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Jim is not human....he can drill from either hand...watched him gingerly hand over hand up the rope...no feet.
Then there's the crux bolt on Heritic...next to the key hand hold. The bold was drilled while his fingers held the hold and the bolt holder.