MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: Aaron McDonald on July 10, 2012, 04:05:12 PM
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I am interested doing some aid climbing mixed with free climbing. The big walls are calling. Anyone have recommendations on aiders, daisy chains, and ascenders?
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Depends upon the ratio of aid to free you're aiming for
More aid than free =
Yates speed ladders are amazing
Yates Adjustable Daisies
I like Bdel Ascenders but they take a bit of getting used to and need to be used a certain way to prevent slipping on the rope, otherwise CMI ultracenders are nice and light.
Yates Shield harness is ultra and surprisingly allows for a lot of movement for a wide/heavy aid harness. cush
More free than aid
I don't do that.
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I use the Petzl ascenders. A little more compact, lighter, and easier to use. Better suited to aid and free missions or light and fast.
Pretty much everything that Yates makes is rad!
The Speed Ladders are great for aid intensive routes, but tend to really get in the way when trying to go from aid to free. I can't tell you how many times ive had those things get caught on gear or stuck in the crack below at the worst moment. I wouldn't carry them on something like a Half Dome in Day mission. Traditional style etriers are better for this but have drawbacks with how they get tangled and twisted, which leads to slower more insecure aiding.
The Yates adjustable daisy is an amazing tool. Some folks use one for each aider. The really great feature of these over any other brand daisy is that you can release them under weight. I have one with a fifi hook on it that is awesome for leading and cleaning. Ask more if you want to know why.
I also vote for the Shield Harness. Burly and comfortable, but not the best for speed climbing or free climbing. I feel a little more encumbered by it, but You can hang for hours in it at hanging belays and still be able to use your legs when its time to roll again.
I use my normal BD Focus harness for half dome like routes and the shield for steeper routes.
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When I was your age, young man, we just took 21 feet of one-inch flat webbing and tied it into aiders. Hell, I did my first Grade Five aid wall and my first two El Cap routes with tied aiders.
And I walked to the base of each route too, two miles in the snow, uphill each direction, carrying a canvas haul bag with no real backpack rig, and I've slept in a one point hammock, thereby enduring total misery for a whole night on several occasions, and, in the early days I didn't even have a cell phone to take, and no supertopos either, and peckers, well they weren't climbing gear, that's for sure, and Fosters came in big steel cans that were perfectly indestructible in a haul bag, and ropes were 50 meters, and my harness was a Chouinard sewn unit made of a single piece of two-inch flat webbing, and did I mention the snow? Both ways.
Ah, better listen to the young guys that post here.
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Can't believe it's taken you this long, Aaron. Thought you'd have stocked up as soon as we got back from our trip. :P
And Brad...just awesomeness. Thanks for the LOL.
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http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttaid216/ (http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttaid216/)
(http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/aid1-216.jpg)
You can make homemade daisy chains this way too. I have some that I made. They're cool, but I don't really use them for anything but conversation.
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I'd just buy a pair of aiders and be done with it.
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Oh, and you'll need a stuffed dolphin and a coconut:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7135/7547982954_fcd4896c95_b.jpg)
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Is that a European or African coconut?
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Thanks everyone for all the great info! I am a big DIYer, so tying my own was my first inclination, but I wanted to find out what the veterans were using before I did things the hard way.
Atomizer, do you only use the Yates Adjustable Daisy only for your Fifi or are using these for your aider daisy as well?
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What Atomizer was talking about with the adjustable to a fifi is a cool trick for lowering out/cleaning, but not a fifi as a fifi is normally used. in general if you want to use your adjustable as a fifi then you use it to connect to the ladder you're on and then just cinch it up so that you're hanging on it as close as you want. This method replaces a fifi.
I use two adjustables, one for each ladder AND a fifi. The reason for this is speed. Cinching the adjustable daisy up as a fifi requires you to uncinch the adjustable when you move off the adjustable-as-fifi. Takes time that when multiplied by the amount of time you do it on overhanging terrain is a waste of energy and time. With a fifi as well as adjustable daisies, you can often walk up the ladder and fifi in without having to cinch up the ladders, saving the cinching of the adjustable for when it's very steep or you're tired at the end of the day.
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if it weren't for the clusterfrig of looped stuff at my waist, I'd do what Cobble is doing. Maybe I'll change tho.
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When I was your age, young man, we just took 21 feet of one-inch flat webbing and tied it into aiders. Hell, I did my first Grade Five aid wall and my first two El Cap routes with tied aiders.
And I walked to the base of each route too, two miles in the snow, uphill each direction, carrying a canvas haul bag with no real backpack rig, and I've slept in a one point hammock, thereby enduring total misery for a whole night on several occasions, and, in the early days I didn't even have a cell phone to take, and no supertopos either, and peckers, well they weren't climbing gear, that's for sure, and Fosters came in big steel cans that were perfectly indestructible in a haul bag, and ropes were 50 meters, and my harness was a Chouinard sewn unit made of a single piece of two-inch flat webbing, and did I mention the snow? Both ways.
Ah, better listen to the young guys that post here.
HA, nice Brad. I still have my set of those same aiders
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if it weren't for the clusterfrig of looped stuff at my waist, I'd do what Cobble is doing. Maybe I'll change tho.
I order my Shield Harness directly from Yates and request two belay loops. cost a bit extra and voids the warranty but it helps A LOT with the clusterfrig
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Yeah, Brad is cheap on the aiders...."now that you've led the pitch, can you tag your aiders down for me..??"
;)
Buy a new pair....you'll wish you had when you are on a piece..dinking around with the the aider...bam yer airborn.
Or tie yer own, and keep an eye out on the wall for a dropped pair. Landshark did that going up the shield...he got to upgrade along the way!
Brad did enlighten me to not tethering the 2x aiders, daisy on each side...rather clip an go!
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I use one adjustable daisy with a fifi permanently attached. We call this the floating fifi.
Then I have two normal daisies, one for each aider. I want these daisies because they are full strength when clipping into anchors and such. And you never experience the hassle of having to extend/ contract two adjustables. You just have one adjustable thing that is used to the maximum.
I love this combo for many reasons over the other methods. This method seemed ridiculously stupid at first, but I watched Hoipoiloi rock this thing on some really fast ascents of The Captain and I was sold. It takes a little more muscle to use, especially on overhanging terrian, but there is some serious convenience with never having to lengthen a daisy that has a bulky aider attached to it. The floating fifi is brilliant for aid routes that also have lots of free climbing. You can free climb up hook it onto fixed gear or just placed gear then quickly ratchet up without daises and once you are above, all you have to do is jiggle the fifi off and you are free again without an aider hanging beneath you. It really helps to not have to use an have an aider which gets in the way when you don't need it. Also when going aid to free you hang off the fifi, remove your aiders and bunch them up to be out of the way, then when you are ready to free all you have to do is joggle the fifi and you are off with nothing to get stuck or encumber you.
The floater really comes in handy for cleaning and i mean really really handy, especially when you are in steep or traversing terrain. I clip it in to the piece i'm cleaning and ratchet up, have that take my weight, then free the rope, re weight the rope via gri gri then lower off with the adjustable to the point where i'm on the rope enough to unweight the piece and clean. It also really helps when you need to do a 2-1 or 4-1 lower out. It makes me feel so much more free. buy the yates, cut the webbing off and then get someone to sew your fifi on and make sure your fifi has a big enough hole to clip into biners which will help you not lose gear when cleaning with the above methods.
Damn im at work, better get back to it. shouldn't be posting now, but this is so much more appealing then work or arguing about rap bolting.
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All good ideas here.
Yates Ladders are great, but I use a 3 step floater with my setup. I use it when on the steeps for stability. It is matched to align with the first 3 steps on the ladder.
Hard(er) aid I use the method described by Atomizer to a T. Yates adj with FIFI is the tits mcCgee.
On the easy stuff, I sometimes use Cobblediks rig.
Bottom line, do it all at least once and figure out what is good for you. 2 ladders exclusively is the new wave, but I have never been able to switch over fully.
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When going fast I use two daisy's, each daisy has one aider on the end. I have been able to go very fast with this and never worry about dropping anything. If the aid gets hard I add a floating adjustable and a floating third aider. I prefer the floating aider to be a 4 loop aider since my regular aiders are 5 loop. This provides a half step which can help out at times. I really dislike using aiders with no attached daisy, slows me down.
I attach my aiders to the daisy with a small locker and depending on what I am doing will put a hook or a cam hook on the locker. Some times when aider a crack system that is continuous I clip cams in and use them to walk up the crack.
Edit:
I say hard but have not done anything over A4. Most of what I have done is A2 or A3. Most of my aid has been C2 or C3 with lots of A0 thrown in.
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Hmmm, looks like i'm going to switch over to Atomizer's floating fifi rig next time out. Makes a shit ton of sense in theory.
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So far in the past year or two I've found a Yates speed ladder at the base of Leaning Tower and 2 different aiders at the base of El Cap.
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Damn im at work, better get back to it. shouldn't be posting now, but this is so much more appealing then work or arguing about rap bolting.
thanks for the belly laugh!
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Landshark!
candygram for Mongo...
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Anyone have experience with FISH Smart Aiders? http://www.fishproducts.com/catalog/bigwall.html (http://www.fishproducts.com/catalog/bigwall.html)
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Can't aid gear be used when rap bolting???
It it relevant!
Yeah, I like using both a fifi and an adjustable daisy. Top stepping is easier w the adj daisy.....
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I've used smart aiders for close to ten years now. Good quality stuff for lesser duty routes. I used those for Half in a day, South Face, Etc. Go for Yates if you plan on spending a lot of time in the aiders. I used to work for Fish... I recommend calling him before ordering to confirm what year they will arrive in. He might be moving at the moment.
F4, yes this stuff could be used for rap bolting, but I can't recommend what is best for that usage.
As for using this stuff for lead bolting i think that aiders are illegal, Tom said you might as well just rap bolt if you are going to aid up the route.
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I bet The Fish would sew a fifi onto one of his adjustables for you also. This is way better than tying it on.
Zack used to do ours, but...
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Zack used to do ours, but...
Sorry Adam:-(
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No worries Squiddo, Zack is still strong in our hearts.
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No worries Squiddo, Zack is still strong in our hearts.
I can imagine......F4 and I each have some of the last chalk bags he made. SOLID.
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As for using this stuff for lead bolting i think that aiders are illegal, Tom said you might as well just rap bolt if you are going to aid up the route.
Seriously?
I think that MANY of us are on different pages here.
Aid is Aid.
Rap bolting is rap bolting.
Stance is Stance.
How would Tom have preferred his route get sent?
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Mucci, I'm speaking of something Tom taught us, not something that is related to the current routes in question. He questioned our bolting of Miscegenation making sure we didn't aid anything. Which seemed to mean, did we place a hook then pull up on it. He seemed to have the strict rule of not pulling up on a hook and putting a bolt in higher then you could reach before the hook was on. He asked this after Angelo decked clipping the 2nd bolt. But then when he climbed the route, which he recently did clean, he said the bolts were perfectly positioned. I guess you can only hang on hooks, not pull on them.
edit: Tom prefers the maximize possible adventure method.
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I suppose hammering a nut tool into mud to bolt off of is out of the question. Kinda like a pecker but different.
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Kinda like a pecker but different.
;D
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Here is a pic of some gear that Zack custom made for me before Angelo and I did The Trip last year.
(http://www.mudncrud.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=63718)
Notice the Floating FiFi which he made out of some super thin webbing. Hoipoiloi broke his but mine just keeps on floating me up.
The jugging straps are amazing. The foot straps have adjustable webbing on one side and a double strip of elastic on the other making for a comfy and tight fit that is easy to get in and out of and wont come out unexpectedly.
That was a fun day sitting in Zack's messy as hell room listening to trance music sewing stuff up. And he wouldn't let me pay him for it. The guy had such a generous heart.
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Mud, Nut tools are not illegal you just cant pull up on it once you've placed it.
I still cant think of where you got a nut tool in on that thing...
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Mucci, I'm speaking of something Tom taught us, not something that is related to the current routes in question. He questioned our bolting of Miscegenation making sure we didn't aid anything. Which seemed to mean, did we place a hook then pull up on it. He seemed to have the strict rule of not pulling up on a hook and putting a bolt in higher then you could reach before the hook was on. He asked this after Angelo decked clipping the 2nd bolt. But then when he climbed the route, which he recently did clean, he said the bolts were perfectly positioned. I guess you can only hang on hooks, not pull on them.
edit: Tom prefers the maximize possible adventure method.
Yeah, pulling up on a hook with a long adjustable daisy is how I test it safely from below the lower bolt. I ain't no dumbie.
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Doesn't work for me, I place bolts further apart. So I won't be accused of aiding.
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So now HOW you Aid is a marker for a good route?
Bolt placement should be the highest priority if you are aiding.
Let me get this straight, you climb 5.12, throw a hook on, and start drilling?
Hmmmm, guess as long as you didn't pull up on the effing hook you are hanging on, it will ensure you get a better route, with bolt placements as good as rapbolting.
BUT when I use a ladder and pull on everything I'm hanging on, I will place bolts in the wrong place, and create a shitty route?
Beg to differ, I may not climb 5.12 but can manufacture a route from the ground with the best of them, and have on many occasions with just hooks.
Maybe the West of the sun authors should have used this approach. But then they created a 5 star world class route by other means.
So Adam, when you put a bolt in on aid, do you split hairs as to HOW much aid you used for fear of being "light duty"?
Just seems arbitrary.
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I think it is a matter of purity. Kinda like Jack only did stance bolting some folks do not make upward progress using aid. ground up is ground up but there different styles of ground up.
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I think it is a matter of purity. Kinda like Jack only did stance bolting some folks do not make upward progress using aid. ground up is ground up but there different styles of ground up.
yep yep, thought some might argue it's ethics, rather than merely style since it's still about how you placed the fixed pro.
I think it is arbitrary. But now I see how Atom's approach may have fed into the opinions around the attempted bolt ladder on the south end of Mono.
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Let me get this straight, you climb 5.12, throw a hook on, and start drilling?
Its not that simple, but I try to subscribe to that belief. But think about it, if you use aid for upward progress you are taking out some of the adventure. Some view aiding as cheating if you make upward progress off that aid point.
So Adam, when you put a bolt in on aid, do you split hairs as to HOW much aid you used for fear of being "light duty"?
I dont worry about too much but Tom and K-Man would likely be disappointed in that style. Especially since they have asked if Mittens and I used that style. But maybe that is why they never made it up those Monolith projects.
Yes bolting at the Pinns is complicated, mostly because this forum. Without it we would have so many more routes to climb.
And on the South Side of the Mono Bolt ladder, there wasn't anything to hook on. So those guys bailed after we told them how irrational they were.
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I think the forum is a venue to allow folks to communicate. The whole ground up thing was around and enforced before the forum. This site just make is it easier for people to get together that normally probably would not.
Yes bolting at the Pinns is complicated, mostly because this forum. Without it we would have so many more routes to climb.
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Fair enough Adam.
Different schools, I was brought up that if your cheating, your cheating and all aid is cheating in the realm of route developement.
So I took that and ran with it right into my aiders!!!
BWHAHAHAHAH!
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I really think a careful bolt ladder could yield a free climb, mostly likely though it will need some hooking.
I'm half tempted to try and get something going on that thing to give you guys something to free.
Hook or Fly!
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Do it Munge! Apparently its all about the final product anyway...
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No worries Squiddo, Zack is still strong in our hearts.
:thumbup:
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Homan, We're All gonna Die! 8)
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Given what I am seeing, maybe it is time to take the concept of "adventure" out of route development at Pinnacles. Given the scarcity of rock and permanence of bolts (even if you pull them and fill them, the damage is still done), it is a FA parties duty to think hard about every time they are going to put a drill to the rock.
The biggest problem I have seen at Pinnacles has not been ascent style, but the overwhelming number of routes that lead to nowhere, routes that deserve negative stars, and routes that simply don't make any sense. Seriously, how many "No Star" routes does Pinnacles need? Given all the limitations that I have seen proposed, what you end up with are routes that go up to a high point and stop. Why? Because the climbing became too hard, the bolt line headed to a feature that didn't pan out, the climbing became too unaesthetic, or the original party just lost interest.
If you are not bolting onsight, from stance, with no rest, then the sense of adventure is going to be gone anyway. If you are going to hang on a hook, then own it; you are aiding. Take that as an opportunity to place the bolts where they belong and not in a place that meets some arbitrary criteria.
I really think it is time for everyone to take a step back and think about what they are preserving and for who. When someone raps down a potential route to see if the rock is good or pulls on a hook to reach for a better hold or bolting stance, it in no way takes anything away from the efforts and styles of other people. The history of climbing is not tarnished forever and the only danger is that the potential new route might not get done or that a bolt might be in a better place.
Just something to think about.
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The biggest problem I have seen at Pinnacles has not been ascent style, but the overwhelming number of routes that lead to nowhere
:o :o :o
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it is a FA parties duty to think hard about every time they are going to put a drill to the rock.
This point makes sense to a certain extent. But even if people thought hard, the rate at which routes could be equipped to down still far exceeds a hooking style rate of establishing.
Climbers will establish new routes. They won't refrain ex nihilo. They will refrain by their own limits if the ethic is preserved.
To Brad's prior post on this point of scarcity of resource, and the scaricity of resource that you mention, Pinns deserves an ethic of ground up to preserve the resource.
On the other hand, it seems a good counter argument to my point here, that the spacing between bolts when hooking could be debated because it is a type of "cheat."
As a practical matter, preserving ground up ethics is a wide spectrum that allows a lot of opportunity. It doesn't limit us to onsight, stance, no rest perfection, which if applied universally would, by implication, call for a removal of those routes that couldn't meet that ethic. Assuming you could get even some consensus around that approach...
thoughts?