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Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: Brad Young on November 20, 2013, 08:06:16 PM
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I've done the standard Machete descent now more than 20 times over the 29 years I've been climbing at Pinns. It's changing (and not for the better). A question Jim McCon asked me two years ago got me thinking about how it's changing and about whether it's finally time to install rappel anchors in the upper gully part of this descent. Here are my thoughts:
First, I'm talking about the upper descent gully, the part above the meadow and below the route Barber's Backside (which is the route that goes up the first, and right now only, rappel on this descent). This upper gully is shown fairly clearly on page 311 of the 2007 guidebook.
Second, the changes I've seen aren't good. This used to be a fairly casual descent, even when it was damp. It's fairly steep, but there used to be more rocks that stuck out and gave traction. Also the rock overall wasn't as worn and smooth. But mostly there used to be much, much more dirt, grass, vegetation and hummocks over the whole length of this chute. The vegetation and dirt allowed one to bypass many of the steepest rock parts of the descent. But walking on the dirt has caused it to go away. Areas that used to be dirt and hummocks are butt-smooth rock now. And most critically, there are huge, foot-deep trenches in the dirt away from the wall. People use the dirt because the rock is now so smooth, and who can blame them? But it's eroding very badly now, the trees there are being undermined and will die (at least one is dead already). We may be "destroying-by-use" the little bit of environment that is in that gully.
Third, when Jim asked me if I thought it was a good idea to put up a series of bolted rap stations down this upper gully, I think he was a little surprised when I told him that there had been one once. A bit of history: there were no bolted rap anchors at all during the first 40 or so years of humans using this descent (but there wasn't much traffic over those years either, at least by today's standards). Then, in the mid-late 1980s someone put in multiple two bolt rap stations. I only saw these anchors once: they didn't last long. A local with a long (and very good, ethical and positive) history at Pinns removed those bolts. He did this because he thought they were:
1. Wrong and probably not ethical, and;
2. Poorly thought out and placed (my interpretation of his comments).
I didn't disagree with him on either point. He was clearly correct on the second one, and on the first point I felt he was taking the high road, which is my preferred path on ethical issues.
The descent has been the same since those bolts were removed.
Fourth, to be clear on what I alluded to above, I've become convinced that climbers will, without wanting to, destroy the grass and trees and, in fact, everything growing in that gully if we continue our ways. I've come to believe that three or so properly installed rap stations 90 feet apart are the right solution at this time. Such rap stations would consist of two-each, stainless steel bolts with rings and, critically, would be placed on the wall, at about chest height (the prior bolts were down low on the ramp and some, if I recall were also in wet spots).
Fifth, I've talked now with at least a dozen Pinns "locals" about this issue (including the one who removed the 1980s bolt stations). No-one has opposed a careful, proper installation of new rap stations. Reaction has varied from definite support to non-oppostion/who cares.
As a side note, one strong local climber who didn't care much either way just uses the Rock Around the Clock rappels since getting down by those is quick and easy. But I'm not sure this a solution for the masses - if one hasn't climbed Rock Around the Clock the mere issue of finding the right top anchor can be a non-starter. I think this backside descent is going to be the standard descent from Machete for the foreseeable future.
Sixth, would installation of such rap stations be ethical? I think so, maybe. Certainly this issue isn't as cut and dried as is the issue of adding bolts to existing climbing routes. Adding bolts to existing routes is a heresy so bad that it is exceeded (maybe) only by bolting next to protectable cracks. I worry that, in the name of "safety" (always, of necessity, the greater goal of commercial climbing enterprises) adventure will eventually be sacrificed in outdoor climbing and the wonderful history and tradition that is climbing at Pinnacles will go with it. If this ever does happen, I hope it isn't until after I have died a peaceful death from old age.
But what about adding bolted stations to a long-established descent? This isn't as close a call ethically. In point of fact, I'd be cautious on the issue myself and say "no" to the idea ("convenience anchors") but for the fact that this gully is getting badly trashed. Can rap anchors be added here without setting a bad and dangerous precedent? I think that the answer to this question is "yes," but only if the vast majority of Pinns regulars recognize this as an unusual situation and reach a consensus about this one situation.
Seeking such consensus is the purpose of this thread. Although I've talked to a dozen or more regulars, I think it is critical to bring the discussion to as many Pinnacles climbers as possible (or maybe not as many as absolutely possible - I'm not sure that I'd post this on Supertopo any more than I'd deliberately paint a target on my back and then go visit a shooting range).
Seventh, If such consensus is reached, I am willing to carefully and thoughtfully install such anchors (and I think Jim is willing to help me).
Thoughts?
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Grad- thanks for the ask. Interesting question about the anchors, the gully was steeper than I expected but manageable. The turn at the bottom your book shows deemed steeper and more slippery than I was willing to accept so I accepted a ride down another parties rope off the tree.
Speaking of that tree I could see subsequent descents doing harm to it.....an anchor might be nice......
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Marc, part of the reason the upper gully is manageable is (I think) because one can go off into the dirt and among the trees. But that option is eroding fast. It's a real problem.
The other part of what you've said (the issues at and below the meadow and its big tree) are not what I've tried to raise in this thread though. I'm talking here only about getting down to that tree in the meadow.
Rappelling from the tree in the meadow might look like the thing to do, but I think this appearance is deceptive and, in my opinion, rapping there leads to a longer and more tortured descent than just roping across the class four ledge (it's a walk-off from there). But that "from-the-meadow-down" discussion might be for another day.
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I would agree that they would help on the decent. I never liked it and shuttered at the thought of taking my wife down it (like rock around the clock is any less stressful).
AM I the strong climber advocating descending down Rock Around the Clock? :blush2:
Oh, but I'm not a local....Damn! I was strong...
That's what I recommend if you want to get off with 1 rope and fast (2 ropes is even faster).
Yeah, I like going down that way and have several times.
Brad you have a point with Rock around the Clock that it's not so clear and someone not familiar would likely have issues.
Versus, seeing the top rap station and then looking down the gully see the next set.
Wasn't there a rescue a few years ago on Muchshitty, due to folks having trouble with the decent?
Make it Jim that does the drilling as who can argue with him??
Then there's my trick for getting off the Balconies with 1 rope, but that's a different story.
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It would be okay with me to have the rap stations. Putting the stations on the wall would have folks rapping down the rocky ramps rather than using the gully - so maybe it would recover over time. There is one spot along the wall that has some poison oak - but that can be easily avoided. I've been told that rapping from that big tree in the meadow does damage to the flora on the cliff below that will last for decades - plus it requires two ropes so I would never do it. I've cleaned webbing and biners from the tree. The 4th class ledge is easily protected by slinging the small trees and there are exactly two short sections that are a bit tricky to downclimb while negotiating the lower gully. If you can't do that - best to hang it up!
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Putting the stations on the wall would have folks rapping down the rocky ramps rather than using the gully - so maybe it would recover over time.
That's exactly my idea and my hope.
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Those 'Rock Around the Clock' anchors aren't an easy way to get off Machete by accident:-)
Interesting proposal Brad. The one comment I have is that could the rappels be 85' instead of 90' and still get down? Believe it or not, some people still climb on 50m ropes.
Also, is there some sort of defined trail where the rappels would end or would we also need to do a bit of trail work as well?
I am in for the work and have the necessary hardware.
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The 4th class ledge is easily protected by slinging the small trees and there are exactly two short sections that are a bit tricky to downclimb while negotiating the lower gully. If you can't do that - best to hang it up!
Great time to retire;-) now onto a lucrative acting career
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now onto a lucrative acting career
Ah, a side of you that none of us knew about?
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If the rap stations don't put the pull of the ropes right thru the same vegetation we're trying to save, then yes, the equation balances in favor of installing a series of rap stations to prevent damage to resources.
Personally, I'm never afraid of installing anchors when it will reduce impact to vegetation, especially if the "original" impact is from climbers.
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Ah, a side of you that none of us knew about?
Brad I've acted for years.....acted like an ass or so my beautiful wife reminds me.
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The one comment I have is that could the rappels be 85' instead of 90' and still get down? Believe it or not, some people still climb on 50m ropes.
Also, is there some sort of defined trail where the rappels would end or would we also need to do a bit of trail work as well?
I am in for the work and have the necessary hardware.
Good point Bruce. I think three 80 foot raps might do it. I wouldn't know until I got up there with an idea of putting the stations in.
And I'd have to say no "defined trail," but I'm talking about rap stations down into the big meadow and then, in my opinion, the rest of the normal descent is fairly clear from there (look at that page 311, it shows the meadow in the photo).
So it sounds like you're OK with the idea?
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If the rap stations don't put the pull of the ropes right thru the same vegetation we're trying to save, then yes, the equation balances in favor of installing a series of rap stations to prevent damage to resources.
Ropes would pull to some degree through the vegetation, but would (I think) mostly slide right down the rock ramps. I think the overall result would be a lot, lot less impact on the dirt, grass and trees.
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Those 'Rock Around the Clock' anchors aren't an easy way to get off Machete by accident:-)
It just makes it a bit spicy. Nothing too bad.
Believe it or not, some people still climb on 50m ropes.
I thought Clint moved to 60m a while back?
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Ropes would pull to some degree through the vegetation, but would (I think) mostly slide right down the rock ramps. I think the overall result would be a lot, lot less impact on the dirt, grass and trees.
Understood.
I'm for it. I'll give a hand too, and have dbl ring anchors I would provide to the project if we Loctite the sht out of them.
Bruce, isn't your stuff all ASCA? Feel free to save those beauties for some of the other routes. Though I guess we are restoring a previous set of anchors in that regard. meh, either way I suppose.
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I agree that the tree above the meadow is vulnerable. If the consensus is to add anchor stations, I think one that spares the tree would be a good place to start. I vote to add some anchors, but carefully, one station at a time followed by discussion. I think the gully is unique enough not to initiate an ungovernable precedent in anchor addition and its deterioration merits the work.
I should mention that met the guy who put those first anchors in the descent gully. It was in the dim (Gagner Guide era) past. He approached me as I was dropping my rope in the car after a day’s climbing. He introduced himself as an itinerant climber devoted to visiting and improving obscure climbing areas. He said he planned to spend a month or so at Pinnacles, adding needed protection bolts and improving anchors. He smoked those pink Asian cigarettes as he talked. He mentioned that he’d done a great deal of work in the gully. I offered the thought that he might want to go easy on the bolts and just enjoy the climbing. He scoffed. We parted.
I saw him a couple of more times from a distance and then never again. When I first encountered his Machete gully anchors, I thought they were oddly located and that the only one arguably justified was the one above the tree that dropped folks into the meadow. I suspect that he added an upper bolt to Dos Equis (soon removed by parties unknown).
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if we Loctite the sht out of them.
Bruce, isn't your stuff all ASCA? Feel free to save those beauties for some of the other routes. Though I guess we are restoring a previous set of anchors in that regard. meh, either way I suppose.
Locktite is good.
No ASCA stuff though. I wouldn't want them involved in anything that could even remotely be controversial. If we do this, I'll pay for the gear (although I'd appreciate it if you'd chip in a couple of those ring anchors, that'd be downright neighborly of you).
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thanks for taking the time to outline the concerns and considerations on this issue Grad, or is it Brad...I agree that the dirt/grass along the rock has deteriorated....would adding an anchor or two mitigate this? I'm not sure...I don't tend to have very strong feelings about this kind of an issue...adding a rap station to a gully that no tourist will ever see doesn't seem to be a serious crime to me...
and yes, I've noticed some of my partners take a while to get through that descent...but if I'm really honest, I would never uncoil a rope and use those stations, much quicker to down climb and not that difficult...
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In the larger scheme of things, any vegetation humans destroy will be quickly repaired by nature once we are gone. And I truly believe the days of the human race are numbered on this planet. We've reached a critical mass at this point.
All of us live far from Pinnacles (except for maybe Waldo?) and the action of us driving vehicles to Pinnacles have caused massively bigger holes in the earth, many of which are irreparable, but invisible to us. Out of sight, out of mind. Our impact to the gully is tiny, it will recover once we are gone. If you want to create less impact don't drive to Pinnacles.
The real issue here is that this descent has become dangerous, especially in the wet season. To me this is the most likely location that someone will die at the Pinnacles. This is one of the most sketchy descents I have done anywhere.
I also think everyone is making the assumption that new anchors would minimize impact to fragile plants and soil surfaces. But in my experience a rope allows a user to move over a wider area and consequently impact to vegetation is over a wider area. But that said if it saves lives the vegetation loss is justified.
I am not sure how to feel about this issue.
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Atom... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_analogy
Remember we're talking impacts to Access, not impacts to humanity's destruction of itself.
In terms of mitigating impact by climbers, laying the rope in the expected direction of rappel will show whether there is additional impact or if the net impact is reduced.
Waldo has a good point about trying one out to see how it functions in the real world.
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I think what I said is called "Reality" not a "false analogy."
Munge you are assuming that all the users that show up after the anchors are put in have the same level of caring and love for that gully and its vegetation as we do. You can't assume in such situations. If there is one thing I learned as National Park Ranger, is that you can't assume, expect or predict an outcome, or feel smarter than someone else. Those persons will not be aware of the discourse that we have had on the subject. And how can you expect someone to rappel exactly in one direction? Also what is the impact on vegetation when you pull the rope? It snakes all over the place on the way down and might impact areas that haven't been impacted yet.
I'm with Joe. Just leave the rope on your back. But at the same time Joe is crazy. He doesn't wear a helmet, resists safety protocols that are standards, and free solos descents that many people would even climb up.
In case you haven't noticed, I'm playing devils advocate here. Had a few pitchers at the brewery too...
Still not sure how I feel.
Maybe fix ropes down this thing like the east ledges descent.
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call me tomorrow if you really want to square up on this.
What I said above is not inconsistent with what you just typed, and most of what you typed is what we're all saying already. e.g. vegetation impact and pull of the rope. see upthread.
Yes, I can assume in a time limited and hypothetical way to speculate right now in discourse about possibilities. No one is doing anything without going in and looking at it closely with some cords to measure distances and how it pulls.
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...But at the same time Joe is crazy. He doesn't wear a helmet...
Helmet hell, I don't think I've ever even seen him wear a shirt.
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Helmet hell, I don't think I've ever even seen him wear a shirt.
Lol
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If I understand what you are proposing I don't think you can use Fixe double ring hangers. If you put the rap on the side of the gully you have to have either vertically oriented anchors or one of the two bolts placed horizontally has to have a longer length chain to properly equalize the load.
BTW, I have lots of my own hardware(chains, bolts, links, etc.) which is used for new routes. Yes, the ASCA and ARI stuff is for anchor replacement though I think we could convince both organizations that this would be a good thing if necessary. Since Brad is willing to pay for it that's as we say in legal mumbo jumbo, a moot point.
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Holy cow :o Atomizer, that reply is extra fat.
I agree, that descent amazed me, and just about kilt me fiance. Truly, I think the East Ledges solution is best. Outside of that, I think you should string caution tape across the upper gully and install a fat set of raps down the face. That whole route is just one long descent anyway.
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Do it! Do it!
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the action of us driving vehicles to Pinnacles have caused massively bigger holes in the earth,
If you want to create less impact don't drive to Pinnacles.
i'm not sure how I feel about the way you feel...
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Was it really two years ago Brad? I too have done that descent many times in the past - during daylight, at night, and on occasion when wet. Yet the most recent experience was the absolute worst ever. We had started on Desperado Chute Out and continued across Old Original for an easy fun day. We were rapping just before sunset. I had belayed Bill down first and he tried to get pro in but the the single piece was crap. Everthing was running with water and 'slicker than snot' (as Brad would say - although I can't say I've ever climbed on that). There was no way to get back up to the saddle. Closet I have ever come to buying it. In the old Chuck Richards guide the link up was one of the to do long climbs back when, casual by today's standards. Finally got around to it only to nearly die on the descent. So yeah I strongly believe anchors are warranted on that stretch. These days if you hit it when wet you'll be damn lucky if you don't get hurt really bad.
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Yet the most recent experience was the absolute worst ever. We had started on Desperado Chute Out and continued across Old Original for an easy fun day. We were rapping just before sunset. I had belayed Bill down first and he tried to get pro in but the the single piece was crap. Everthing was running with water and 'slicker than snot' (as Brad would say - although I can't say I've ever climbed on that). There was no way to get back up to the saddle. Closet I have ever come to buying it.
Yup, hence why I back track on old original and rap rock around the clock > West Face......
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I emailed out a link of this thread to about 12 climbers who are Pinns regulars but who don't post here, or don't post very often. A couple of those have now posted here. Three read the thread and then emailed me privately to respond. All three of those were in favor of adding anchors as long it's done carefully.
I'm leaning toward going ahead with this in mid-December.
If I do proceed, I intend to take some photos of some of the worst of the environmental damage while I am there. I'll post them here afterward.
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thanks for the service Brad
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Sounds like a probe is worthy, just to ensure the lines are exactly where they need to be.
I have put my trust in those who have spoken up here to maintain a proper service oriented approach to this issue.
Putting it out there for discussion is admirable. Gives us all a chance to discuss the options and find the best solution.
When I hear hardmen like Jim, Kelly ect talking about buying the farm on that descent, well I think you have your answer.
+1
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with bolts for rap. Does the decent become a new route?
Hmmmm?
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I've done most of it in reverse - up to the meadow to do Fish Breath Arete and then Barber's Backside on a "let's do all the Old Original variations" day - that's 2 out of 3 pitches - do I get the FA if I help with the bolts? I'd like to name it The Completion Backwards Principle.
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I get dibs on the eliminate version.
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From what I understand, we're talking about two sets of anchors in the upper gully. This gets you over to the 4th class ledge where there's just trees that you sling for pro, then you downclimb the lower gully. Is that right?
I'd really have to see it to make a judgement on where any new anchors would go. But if they could be places so there's one direct line down, I'm for it. However, I do note Atomizer's note about being able to swing around on rappel and causing more/new damage. And, what about that 4th class traverse?
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From what I understand, we're talking about two sets of anchors in the upper gully. This gets you over to the 4th class ledge where there's just trees that you sling for pro, then you downclimb the lower gully. Is that right?
I'd really have to see it to make a judgement on where any new anchors would go. But if they could be places so there's one direct line down, I'm for it. However, I do note Atomizer's note about being able to swing around on rappel and causing more/new damage. And, what about that 4th class traverse?
Yes, two or three sets, for two or three single rope raps.
These would get one to the meadow with the big oak. It's about 100' across this large meadow to the start of the class four traverse. I've never thought the class four traverse was all that bad, and it's protectable (tie off, or climb behind, trees). Anyway, I wanted to deal with one thing at a time (as my genius wife says "let's not burn that bridge 'til we come to it").
And yes, while one could swing around on rappel and cause more damage, there's no real cause to do so. And without the rappel, if it is damp, one has no choice but to cause that additional damage.
See if this photo helps:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/11004082336_3d1fceddca_b.jpg)
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(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7344/11004082336_3d1fceddca_b.jpg)
Hmm, I see a few new lines.
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I've received one more response from a Pinns regular; this one also thinks that the proposed rappel stations are a good idea.
And Larry Arthur replied and wanted me to post his reply. Here it is in full (not in a quote box - it's too long, and the quote boxes use a font size that is too small):
"Thanks for the heads up - and taking this question to the community. Here is my long winded opinion (which is why I rarely have time to post anything other than on MountainTools.com). Please share it in total.
As mentioned before, I consider Old Original to be a scramble of moderate difficulty (not a rock climb per se) and have always thought it a good terrain for aspiring mountaineers to learn and practice the craft - in a friendly environment devoid of common hazards that exist in the alpine (ice, slippery snow, lightning and related weather). This is what first attracted me. It is Pinnacles' "sidewalk in the sky" as someone well before us had described... An ice axe and crampons nor rock shoes are needed and Old Original is accessible year 'round - how cool is that?!
Years ago (decades probably) I removed an ill conceived and poorly positioned string of rappel anchors that led down the Machete descent gully. The drill dust was fresh and I could easily see the benefit of the rappels (security) was seriously outweighed by the risk of self-generated rock fall and hung up ropes (what a pain to have to hike back up and free a rope snagged on a knob or bush). After all it was an easy walk - including the loose gravel and small rocks - that a "mountaineer" quickly learns to avoid. Weeks later on another excursion across the "sidewalk in the sky" I repaired the anchor at the top of the Hide Out and removed all the bolts and filled the holes restoring the character of the descent. BTW - these were not the first bolts to be placed for the descent or in the descent gully - Originally, the rap off the ridge was anchored to slings around the square block (then bolts were added) and 3/4s of the way down there was a SMC hangered single bolt (rock right on a little buttress - near an oak tree) just above the down climb section. The bolt (as well as the tree) had been used by some to secure a doubled rope for a hand line or body rappel (other mountaineer techniques) while descending. At this point, most would want to face into the rock and use both hands and feet for security - on Class 3 terrain. Also the 2 or 3 bolts placed on Barber's Backside - were installed primarily to access to the top of the ridge directly above the Machete Direct finish - part of a rescue "pre-plan" we concocted one year - either with Ranger Pete Armington or Ken Phillips. Later, Ken and I rapped the Direct and crow-barred off loose flakes (one huge flake "traditionally" marked with chalk sparked the campaign), removed an errant pair of belay bolts (on the last pitch) and an off route quarter incher. We carried a broom too - and swept debris off some ledges while Clarence took cover below & kept the "landing zone" tourist free. Constructive cleaning? At least the loose rock was less likely to kill anyone now.
Couple of the skills important for the developing mountaineer is terrain assessment and knowing when to employ the rope or not - going up (or down). This is something most often learned by experience but best learned from a mentor or guide (I learned the hard way, then became a guide). Many factors contribute to this judgement - some objective and some subjective. Old Original is one of my favorite stretch-of-the-legs (I take a skinny rope for the rappels) and also a great introduction to mountaineering for all climbers - who benefit from discussing strategy, tactics, route-finding, managing risks & placing protection - while enjoying an excellent view. This route's character is a bit different compared to more difficult ("higher" Class) "routes" that "merely" rely on spotting the next bolt (or set thereof) and mustering the strength and climbing prowess to clip them. Mountaineering (and trad gear routes) can be terrifically entertaining - I like the problem solving, improvisation & gear use... and they provide me lasting memories.
Your Machete Descent (p310) gives a good report - "downclimb a slab 30 feet to a meadow (fourth class)". It suggests a belay may be desired. This and other points along the route have traditionally been down climbed yet (under certain circumstances) could warrant short roping a partner, employing a hand line for balance, impromptu butt belay or even improvised anchor and stance belay - as decided by the climbers based upon their experience and skill and factored by the conditions of the day (light/dark, dry/wet, rested/tired, etc). In other words, not all descents (even technical rock climbs) require a full blown rappel - with anchor, harness, carabiner and rappel gizmo. Other examples would be the chimney down climb from Badman's Mezzanine to the rap stations below... or from Escape from Soledad or down the Hand-Thumb notch. These all seem about the same to me and mostly if not always descended without a rope. Deploying a rope and rappelling takes time - daylight this time of year (as does recoiling the rope). It does not necessarily reduce total risk or increase security for the day's adventure... and rappelling on "easy" terrain can lead to other hassles.
I do have a nit to pick about mention of the rappel slings on the LNP tree below the Machete descent gully and the "possible to descend from this tree by way of long two-rope rappel" - which (by mere mention) has a negative affect of encouraging some to consider rapping from this point and damaging the moss, lichen and succulent wall below. The tree is an "attractive nuisance" and (for some) provides the illusion that "being on a rope" is preferable to finding one's way on non-technical terrain. Better would be to install a small weather-proof sign "Do not rap from tree, continue across meadow to easy rock traverse & trail." This would be a good service project, reminder to all and aid to first-timers finding their way. Again - leave it up to the leader and follower(s) to determine if encouragement, a spot, or rope set up of some type is necessary to cross the last easy rock and hand traverse.
Thanks for taking this to the MudNCrud community and stimulating discussion. I'm certain that all will give careful consideration to your question and proposal and the best ideas will prevail.
Happy Holidays and Best Climbing,
Larry"
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did this descent again today, with a partner quite comfortable with the terrain...a couple of observations: first, the area noted in the photograph described as 'worst damage here' actual looks more like a hiking trail at this point, I don't think people will stop using that trail...my partner felt strongly that adding rap anchors were unnecessary given the nature of the terrain...
clearly this is a minority opinion and I understand the reasons people think it's a good idea...but there's no doubt you are sacrificing a bit of the adventurous nature of the route...I don't think it's 'crazy' or 'unsafe' to hike down the descent gully as is...
by the way, has anyone been on Smiling Simian southwest face lately...we couldn't find the bolts on the 5.10 there...clipped them in the past but neither of us could see them at all today in good light...
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Simian had one bolt replaced with an upgrade. The upper one, as I recall doing it. Bottom was same as it ever was last season.
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Joe, have you done it recently when it was wet?
edit: Just to be clear I am not advocating for either side. I really do not care on this one. For what ever reason I kind of have strong feelings both ways. I think the decent for a route that is for the most part for beginners should be safe but I also do not think bolts should be added.
Was just curious about the wet since for most that seems to be the problematic situation.
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I'm still sticking with going down Rock Around the clock.
It has to equal a few less steps to the car.
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I like the idea of rapping the face. That is my preference, but that might be a bit of an undertaking for someone new to the game.
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I like the idea of rapping the face. That is my preference, but that might be a bit of an undertaking for someone new to the game.
Maybe the next guide can have a few pictures?
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I have done it when wet and of course it is more challenging...I really don't have strong feelings about this either...no one is going to see the bolts, there are good arguments for and against....and I think most responses I've seen are for...certainly I respect that...maybe if it's really slick I would use the anchors, but having done the descent a number of times now, I doubt it...just not necessary...
and it does take some of the shared adventure away from the experience...you know how when you've done a route that involves a little bit of something, whatever that may be, and you find out someone else has also done the route...I think with Old Original, for example, part of that experience is getting back to the ground...
I would argue that if one wanted to put energy into anchors there are a number of anchors that are set so far back as to cause ropes to get stuck or not pull...for example the top of Cuidado as we've talked about in the past...the top of Mission Impossible is another one that comes to mind, lots of examples like that...
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I can still go either way on this issue. I don't think adding these anchors will reduce vegetation loss in that area. The anchors might just end up spreading out the impact over a larger area. I do believe that the anchors will improve safety on this descent, but at the same time new anchors may encourage climbers to do this route when conditions would not usually be safe in the wet season, which is also the time when the highest amount of potential damage can be done to vegetation.
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Isn't the wet season the most popular climbing season? The Pins is kinda a fall,winter,spring climbing destination.
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I would like to see rap anchors installed. It is a safety issue. Descending that gully can be a very scary proposition when wet. In addition, people are also destroying the vegetation because there several paths down. If one path with a clear descent is established it should minimize the damage to a much smaller area and make for a safer adventure. I would also be willing to spring for the hardware if needed.
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I would like to see rap anchors installed. It is a safety issue. Descending that gully can be a very scary proposition when wet. In addition, people are also destroying the vegetation because there several paths down. If one path with a clear descent is established it should minimize the damage to a much smaller area and make for a safer adventure. I would also be willing to spring for the hardware if needed.
Hey Aaron, glad to see you around these parts again.
If we install anchors I'd likely also drag brush and dead tree branches up there from the lower gully to carefully "obstruct" the current, terrible erosion gullys/paths. This is a well recognized way of using natural materials to guide people to where you want them (we just did a ton of this at the work weekend in October). Taking some such material from below would leave no detectable impact there, and the material would be placed in a way that makes using the erosion gully/paths just a little more difficult than not using them.
I think this would lead to an eventual recovery of the grass, shrubs and trees that are being so impacted now.
(And thanks for volunteering to help with hardware.)
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Hey Aaron, glad to see you around these parts again.
Thanks Brad! The cold weather has brought me home. I would be willing to help with brush dragging as well if you can give me a little advance warning.
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Hey gang -
I've been out of touch volunteering in southern Africa for 5 weeks, but will be back at the Pinns on December 10th. Great times assisting with wildlife conservation research in Swaziland, and my Achilles tendon is continuing to heal up well.
Having worked my way down the Standard Machete Descent more than a few times myself, it is good to see all the carefully considered thoughts on this issue here. In a nutshell, I'm in favor of the anchors for safety, can contribute hardware as well, and would be happy to accompany Brad on installing them, if that would be helpful.
Brad, I'll try to touch base later in the week when I'm back in the States… A couple issues come to mind with the project that I'll throw your way when internet access is more reliable!
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Have fun Gavin.
Pictures?
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You guys are seriously going to adopt rap bolting for this project... jeez, where are all the old school ethics these days?
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You guys are seriously going to adopt rap bolting for this project... jeez, where are all the old school ethics these days?
No. If we do it we'll probably go station to station up from the meadow.
"Instigator" is sounding better and better.
Doesn't sound like you're coming over here for tomorrow?
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No. If we do it we'll probably go station to station up from the meadow.
"Instigator" is sounding better and better.
Doesn't sound like you're coming over here for tomorrow?
I really don't care on the style. If you need help let me know I've got plenty of time to help now that I was just handed an "indefinite furlough" from work. It's pretty scary and I'm very sad. So I apologize for any out of line posts from recent past and present.
I think John and I might head down to the Pinns tomorrow and hopefully sink some more metal into the project.
But if I change my mind when do you think you'll get to The Farside?
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But if I change my mind when do you think you'll get to The Farside?
You know, come to think of it, I'd better give some thought to the weather. We've now gotten a foot of snow up here and it's 25 degrees out. Chain line was below Jamestown this morning, and I know that Rawhide Road got at least a few inches of snow.
It might be too wet over there by tomorrow.
If we go though, we'd likely get there between 10:00 and 11:00 in the morning.
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Adam- sorry to hear the news. If you feel like sharing belays sometime at PG I've got passes for you.
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yep sorry to hear and no apologies necessary.
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Yeah, Adam, they've got a good point, no apologies necessary. You bring a lot to this forum (and a lot to Pinns climbing too).
It sounds like work got too slow?
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Gavin, I agree with you about the safety issues. Inexperienced climbers deserve a less hair-raising option. Rappelling the face gives me concerns too. I recently saw climbers on Machete Direct on a very busy park day - dozens of kids and hikers on the trail below them. However careful they were, loads of loose stuff was ready to come down. The same goes for rappels of the face. You can't tell what's going to happen when you pull your ropes.
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Brad, it's going to be 25 tonight at my house in K.C. That gully will be flat miserable all day and ice may linger. I climbed Freemont Peak yesterday and there was ice on the trail at four in the afternoon. Next week should be better.
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Yeah, Adam, they've got a good point, no apologies necessary. You bring a lot to this forum (and a lot to Pinns climbing too).
It sounds like work got too slow?
Thanks Brad, its nice to know you guys have got my back.
The money has run short and our strategic investor fell through. There is nothing to purchase at this point and its become apparent we need to spend a few million upgrading some tools or we'll never get to where we need to be to get competitive in the market. I'll likely know in a few weeks whether our other prospects come through. Sorry if this is off topic.
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Are there new rap anchors up there? Weather permitting, would like to shoot for Old Original late February or March. Just want to know what to look for. Only time on top we rapped first pitch of OO.
Really want to do this route in it's entirety, I've only climbed first two pitches.
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Are there new rap anchors up there? Weather permitting, would like to shoot for Old Original late February or March. Just want to know what to look for. Only time on top we rapped first pitch of OO.
Really want to do this route in it's entirety, I've only climbed first two pitches.
No rap anchors on the descent gully yet. With your level of experience and penchant for adventure I doubt you'd have a problem. Of course if we start to get some rain...
You could do like we did and climb up the descent and do Fish Breath Arete.
That way when you finish OO you'll already know what to do. OO is magical.
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JC how did you like Fish Breath Arete ? - It looked very cool. It would be fun to do O.O. in reverse.
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Bill,
Jim and I have decided to go ahead with installing rappel anchors. But time and priorities (mostly the proximity of the bird closures) have delayed us. We will post here once we have finished this work.
And, by the way, welcome to the forum. I hope to meet you in person; iIs there any chance that you and your son will be coming to this year's Master's of Mud Rendezvous to meet all of us?
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JC how did you like Fish Breath Arete ? - It looked very cool. It would be fun to do O.O. in reverse.
I think Fish Breath is awesome. Position and exposure just keep getting better as you get higher. check out my May TR Breaking Barriers - Something smells Fishy
I've also done all the "alternate" OO pitches and the rappel bypass. The Hideout is cool as an alternate OO start if you haven't done that. My least favorite of the reverse pitches is Barber's Backside. I liked the Rappel Reverse even though the first bolt is too low and the second is quite high - but it's right where you want pro.
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JC - unfortunately my level of experience and penchant for adventure doesn't help me get up the climbs anymore. BTW, we met last April at the bottom of Passion Play, chatting about route direction.
Brad - thanks for the invite. Can't say where I will be around the end of April. Be great for my son to meet younger climbers to climb with.
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JC - unfortunately my level of experience and penchant for adventure doesn't help me get up the climbs anymore. BTW, we met last April at the bottom of Passion Play, chatting about route direction.
Then I would definitely recommend climbing up the descent - even if you just scramble up the upper gully to the base of the rappel at the bottom of Barber's Backside - you'll know exactly what you'll have to downclimb at the end of what could be a long day depending on OO traffic. Working carefully up the lower gully has a couple interesting 4th class sections - including the 4th class ledge - and some close-in PO that can be carefully avoided. I do remember meeting you - I seem to recall some wisecracker suggesting the route be re-led in the water chute :)
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I thought I'd mention that Crux and I left a top-rope (70 meter, though I believe a 60 meter will serve, too) at the last set of rappel anchors and used it to protect the Rappel Reverse (837). There was a bit of a pendulum potential at the level of the second bolt, but it was much better than leading through the damp choss. Whose permission might we need to add another bolt above the first one? That would make this baby a more reasonable Pinnacles lead. Clint's rebolting efforts took the X off it.
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I thought I'd mention that Crux and I left a top-rope (70 meter, though I believe a 60 meter will serve, too) at the last set of rappel anchors and used it to protect the Rappel Reverse (837). There was a bit of a pendulum potential at the level of the second bolt, but it was much better than leading through the damp choss. Whose permission might we need to add another bolt above the first one? That would make this baby a more reasonable Pinnacles lead. Clint's rebolting efforts took the X off it.
For what it's worth - I onsighted that route and I think the 2nd bolt is right where it needs to be. The first bolt becomes useless almost immediately - it's too low. The moves up to the second bolt are scary but not hard and the harder moves are well protected by that second bolt. Above that point the climbing eases substantially. I wouldn't change a thing. We're talkin' slippery slope here Bob :)
By the way - why was it previously X?
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Wow, intense read. I hope to descend this old school style (existing) with JC sometime soon. I agree with distance of 50m- if stations are added. That way if LA does Old Original in hiking boots, hemp rope and knickers he won't cuss his rope not being long enough.
Haven't been down it since the mid 90's so any opinion I have has faded with my recollection of specific details of the descent. I seem to remember rapping off a block (with a back up bolt?) sometimes and then keeping hummocks between me and a fall. If the descent has changed and become dangerous, a creative, community solution is in order.
Someone tried to add a bolt to Dos Equis? That is dumb, and probably set LA off big time. He gave the clearest statement I've heard yet about not altering the original ascent party's intention or style of a route. Larry Arthur took a lot of time to mentor me through those early years, for which I am forever grateful.
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Did it yesterday with JC, He took pictures of a few sections.
The main gully has an erosion trench down it. I suspect the water is flowing much faster and washing away the lower hummocks. A rock ramp 4-6ft wide exists on the side of this section. Anchors could be positioned on this at 22m+- intervals.
The lower traverse first holly is a weathered stick now, this section can be belayed. If the remaining die intermediate pro might be placed. How to preserve the mountaineering adventure as it changes is the question.
Don't do it wet.
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those would work great!
Doesn't West Marine carry them? Or were you going to borrow a few from the SC harbor?
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those would work great!
Doesn't West Marine carry them? Or were you going to borrow a few from the SC harbor?
I can get a discount on those but I would prefer a pin head model.
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Or were you going to borrow a few from the SC harbor?
Night mission, meet me at the "place" 0200
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pin head model
What's it look like? Or are you making fun of me...?
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What's it look like?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cFaP1qH86c2AGEnqCequqDFqdtI-YLwlZ6pfuJbvDYuif2drwtTyHfC3l2YcJMeE_R0_PE6iD68_OVy3jcm-_2WbHb8G_0UnFQe8JH-ZKKKgpG6HS5NeIl0fI6caL6KWzBSOrjJBS6iovYPwLZ5AWi=w390-h625-no?authuser=0)
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that cleat gives me an idea!
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that cleat gives me an idea!
Did it gel overnight? If so, spit it out.
JC-cute.
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Bollards
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JC suggested traffic cones and signs ;)
LA would have to approve, of course.
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bollard bolt hanger!
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All kidding aside - people are still having a serious impact on the upper gully and rapping off trees before or in the meadow instead of using the 4th class ledge and lower part of the standard descent. I think part of the problem stems from websites that suggest carrying two ropes and rapping off the tree(s).
This seems to be the most severe erosion in the upper gully. The lowest tree has evidence of rappelling (tracks below the base - no scarring of the tree - yet).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3e_Yorm-8pRjzUfWR5tSZNmE3r2n7fzvaiDPMkXUL-mTn4reFK6SqrnF9s6yVR8bz009EhCau4wA-QOx0ZHVd5Jj6oTmvlpw4wGENSZX_zMztK6UW3eZqMqK7G5HRyr8o0SiO59EpPejiSaOYLcG0x7=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
This lower "slide" is probably the sketchiest section of the upper part of the descent - dirt and loose gravel on top of rock. If someone were to start sliding here and go into a tumble toward the left side, they wouldn't have far to go before they'd be airborne.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3esAq3X3ArA5N7XLiQCC5jCPPoSI9qESVDb8ks8nH8SzKE4-wn-pIKYwkMDaVvxZSEdNf_ilHz87zLjL6JEEDvcpMeZ13muD5Lizk9sm4SGl_I1PBsZNdjEpx7PRwV4cliD4jJaVargx9YPSnIiV3lS=w675-h506-no?authuser=0)
Closeup of the previously mentioned/shown tree that someone has rapped off - something I never noticed before - tracks around the base and no other earthly reason to step out/down there.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ePUDMuHOBGYI9skT8milF3pC4nc_0lT5RhY4XTwWqSsYGTxpa3fkQ3t_nhS-UNk9ECfHVflwUYSTCUM_ljdGgDqexjauWq4j3ESxXX3u8msbZEaI5ZzHHJHjSflbxWsRvApQRZM7f7xilNCEsC-sLV=w700-h525-no?authuser=0)
And as usual there was webbing on the big tree in the meadow. We left everything clean.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cYRRdLmw-X97qfKByBv7S9oeXFi3xS1x2xLnPRMQwVD-yqDXYR5l2eeCTCmNWX9CfJ3WH4vyBUnbppBI1CljTmMZf0i4t3m_PiQ8Ausb6CPNuF4cKvbNIaqHvwpth1wybE72BeBOCmAgNsF_TKs1OM=w700-h525-no?authuser=0)
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The Cooks and I installed rappel anchors on this descent today. It went well; we feel we accomplished an excellent public service in two ways. First, the safety issue - this descent has gotten smoother and considerably more tenuous over the years. Second, the erosion up there was as bad as I recall (one trench was over two feet deep and one oak tree is already dead). The way we set up these stations (and tried to block off the "paths" that have led to erosion) should help enormously with this issue.
I'll post the basic information about the rappel stations. J.C. is working on photos now and will post those.
The first/highest rappel station we installed is below the standard Machete rappel and then "down-gully" slightly. It is at the last/lowest "flat" part in the top of the gully. A person rappelling from the top of Machete would either finish their rap and walk 30 feet of class two to this station, or just continue their rappel and arrive there on the rope. This station consists of two 3/8" stainless Rawl-type bolts with Fixe ring hangers. It is at about chest height on the wall above the ramp (on the left as a climber faces up-gully). The bolts and hangers are oriented in the direction of the rappel and equalize nicely when weighted (we actually set up and weighted each rappel before tightening the bolts to make sure that the hangers were all oriented perfectly).
The second station is below considerable sections of class four and above other such sections. It is 85 feet below the first station. The bolts and hangers are of the same type as in the first station. Orientation and equalization are also very good. This station is on a higher part of the ramp instead of on the wall, since placement there seemed to lead a climber to rappel down the ramp and not down to the ferns and dirt (there's a "landing" area below here where erosion problems seem to begin). We were particularly happy with the way this station worked out insofar as how the rope equalizes and how it sets up a climber to stay on the rock ramp.
It is 85 feet from this station to a nice flat spot where a climber will go off rappel and walk 25 feet of class two to the third station. From this station to the top of the meadow is about 75 feet.
All of the rope pulls are very smooth.
I left bits of red webbing on one of the bolts at each station so that climbers descending would see the color and notice the bolts. This was probably overkill as the bolts were fairly obvious where they are.
We cleaned several rap slings off of the trees in the area.
Lastly we moved branches and brush up from near the base of Fish Breath Arete, into the descent gully, and used it to obscure and block the erosion gully/use trails. This was really labor intensive, and we didn't move all that much brush. But what we did move and place looked to us like enough to seriously discourage people from leaving the rock (a relatively un-erodable substance) while on rappel.
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Again, MANY thanks for the service. You are fantastic
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1st rap anchor
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dWSPickEteeW2NmOU1YXl5mvckjGYNEPKNa2CnS3Vb4_xq8axkujMSi0YersB_nftej2dpbUtjbN_f8ubHXd5qpzIENYnXEiLwsLjSVpJGW3u3c0s_BI7O-5AHlJxBQtUBsh6M3l0INsfqIM8nzHSB=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
JC makes an initial voyage down rappel one
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3csTwkLp76KXwxNyI1fmwNBmJolVQ6zffLAtzuqwsEN4MX6b25F7gL_GneQjPMPVuc_q6JSnewt-1JZ4JUGw_AYeqq-Xii4F-pWxL3EKLyB9Y-2K8mXUNpICB1l39esPWw2-5jHQU7neaulwYk7uB88=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
Brad pointing out rejected wet wall rock for anchor 2 (we decided to put it on the ramp to avoid this and the PO).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ev37ChpysbgzFWzI1zlDFXqmF7Vk9KXbMRqzWbCKUt1Ti4fTnCSIO3t1zNKFdE4mKPH4D_Ucm9aOkLSNRppmU6dTNbK3cdYaRHn-Z0MAaDU2bDsoAxfKYFgT6k7ujAomkUO8jKfK0i6Th3qpFbqMQN=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Brad getting anchor 2 started on the ramp
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cGuPnYmy2EXLXw8-gWUCx_zOpBqi3Zk9ZmoYRq9ry8iafjCYST70iT8CSEcMM4VQ8FPhk7LgB6h7DCviWT1CMiatH9qBPufmIyV41yPTTeAEalUB0eeIe1va8_eZ-rCKvGr_oYQlMtgSPECFpQaX9N=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Anchor 2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fg8WBpca_tucTajO-6Jac7DYZWGCI7Wct9OyNJQ1tfquta4me9ax_-4zQd0Tzm6v94HXwdA1LZ-0ZG6FXE17YNsu5AuexcBCQfK60bhzltbSWs9w2ws1EgwfIAffbmzulnyYDclS5vBJ4SuaZkGGQt=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
PO on the wall just below anchor 2 :yikes:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eErGPu7SJe-tFEdMoNqhGVMkzQQpApfWoDtpqqJKnzStv4c1d3P6bmpKNbyaVkLNrJSCOapgURFv0P8R2MEw4D0RIc9Vef8abIKlepTV9BgNxQsRgu60C34bNkTIO1rQbbNgts240fNjegXhQATVXM=w646-h625-no?authuser=0)
Looking down line of rappel from anchor 2 – note PO on wall
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cAikTUWcLgKAzM49skkrxLvVz5dvG3U5Jq-BT8EUXlDKJx2-XtaR3uxIRRnBBOpjsMgx55pc46zLbxTIPobN5nK8CY5lSqdEnyoQLqmLsyayHm9gUsbqImjKABLJSo2VWuS7aj4Fafd9q2lUn6YXsZ=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
Looking over the usual path climbers take to get into the dirt/vegetation/erosional trenches – now with deterrent in place
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3fqU8AS9Zg5JoyGCWPA3mfsnuYoo5Zv2bNexcrsLBmmGpyzmI54pyedbScWXMNBpQLDn359Axm-jlhVxeIRkDDck0uU_5SvFvl06MPYu0wbOXy7IoMgGxLiyKXU8TtSC-AbCT2p9sSgD17zrKC3PpNP=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
Looking further down the erosional gullies with more deterrent
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3esAq3X3ArA5N7XLiQCC5jCPPoSI9qESVDb8ks8nH8SzKE4-wn-pIKYwkMDaVvxZSEdNf_ilHz87zLjL6JEEDvcpMeZ13muD5Lizk9sm4SGl_I1PBsZNdjEpx7PRwV4cliD4jJaVargx9YPSnIiV3lS=w675-h506-no?authuser=0)
Looking up the upper part of rappel 2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eKNj2G7YL1wjm2pEY9iGF_XqO__CSNs5zIkJvr4k3qNSC9Y2kes0HbHQlpxGnBY5KQxyZCvsdHqiRgMxa1Ajcn9fMxIpmuRnAME69ou9yoUmLTCjBOZGdVqsZzrQLZ7RfT5JbkLucl5FWJub6X4NB6=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Looking up the lower part of rappel 2
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eLhptQuV6A_cC2osvLcah9pf8OFAzPMTDuHyC4K2gz-auT5AvWs_F3nhxUxpQEzmX69C-U7-mrwHRCT0toViiLfu32Vp6bB7DqsZyoC-0e1pAQkr9erzo25N1W2Bz5Vqr_Gr4EHFLBD1pjOTkTVqvZ=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Kat works on anchor 3
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3d4idH5xUJowQdqD48rsDr8OAjEQdRkRijpKNC4KTKQSrd6Wsbz1XM0tO0CabqEGTJyapbyvuKRqivsfm0w5cSGrTSrJqW2KySH8UImQ_CKcpf_9gQSvngtSfX8AfX7-MpdCoXyebOaqOYgv676B5q5=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
Anchor 3
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dxRFJ1Q64t5MRV8Jk7cNZ-OY9at7ibI0KfNnabIoLognr72GRugMxh-JHKl3td1gkopzqlUCOOaoS2x0o8Enosex3w7IgnU6bLwpUrlNKv1KcVPa4JIFQiY7TeTIyPVjKWLDiZMxjwH7Fy_kAro-RX=w650-h488-no?authuser=0)
Leaving rappel anchor 3
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3em1jDdxgNkGlDTvVZD8uTUR3-Ch6SEp4nTMLtR-tuXVMg0eRbvCSNxK_K8zuH0PV0KBZVYs5GgsqWjGVnuTeXnVnVBY1EvDAAv9-CD-cinPh5zCwa95uGodSFDzhdv-DAsnePbRjm41URXbefLdUQw=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Looking up Over the lip on the 3rd rappel
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eYFfUFRfy3galDFP_Ly32zO7X7fgeGyZZTq3y9s4k9gmfe3YF-8J1IUHrRv4VofueqWKatHSwDtJczxTPkKpg1dolWhlPWIgKIdJgC-uluShdZnJMhsxdlKPa2GlfHPvKhND6uovXS1NI4WiJnGRcA=w469-h625-no?authuser=0)
Brad forgot to mention that all the anchors were installed ground up from stance ;)
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Your intelligently placed infrastructure will prevent harm to Pinnacles, something we all appreciate!
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And with crunchy pictures even better! Thanks guys!!!
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Cool.
What is the shortest length rope that makes those raps usable?
E.g. Are they set for 50 or 60m?
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I've always considered that half of a 50 meter rope is 85 feet (a close approximation, I did climb with them BITD). So a 50 meter rope will work just fine on all three raps (for any fossils out there that still use one - Bruce are you listening?).
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Ha my first (well second) rope was a 50 meter Cousin brand. Red and white that became pink after a wash. Lame, lame, short and made in France. Random:-)
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Hey that 50m rope has to be lighter than the 60m...that was always the reasoning. Heaven forbid you use a 70m...and have to carry that damn thing (think small pack).
Yeah that PO on the decent sucks! I took a bunch to the chest w brad once.
A week later poor Jenny was scratching and scratching not knowing why.
oops.
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Much thanks!!!!! Finally, but without climbers tracking through the hummocks the deterioration process will stop, over time may even start to reverse.
Munge and I came across an untouched hanging meadow last week. We spent a bit of time planning a anchor location that would avoid the softscape from the beginning.
Penny's dropped.
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Nice work, thank you.
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Excellent job! Thank you very much to all of those who put the time in to think this through and make it happen! Hope I get out there to check it out sometime soon.
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Good work team!
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Good stuff. Thank you guys. Nice to know that got some love and the decent will be safer and quicker.
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Brad, I am listening. Thanks for making a 50m work! One comment. I would have liked to see the two bolts at each anchor closer together. The farther apart they are the less the load of the rappel is shared between the two bolts and you can quickly reach a situation where each bolt has 100% of the load. The Rawl/Powers spec for concrete says that one bolt length is sufficient between bolts. That should probably also apply to good rock at the Pinnacles.
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Thumbs up on this.
Charles
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The Rawl/Powers spec for concrete says that one bolt length is sufficient between bolts. That should probably also apply to good rock at the Pinnacles
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I have to disagree Bruce. I have seen "bomber" placements of original bolts. Removed them only to find that a 6" piece of the "rock" came out by the time I was done.
3.5" between bolts goes against the conglomerate theme.
Here is a great write up:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Xh_WM3Ab_kcJ:https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx%3Fid%3D216+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
A hand length between bolts has always been a term I have heard thrown around. This article references 200mm between which is roughly 7.25".
What are you're thoughts on the status of the matrix behind the surface? Holes and other irregularities we have all found after drilling for a few inches. Then we get spinners and unseated bolts.
I would not even consider 3.5" apart on granite, let alone an anchor that would need to have hauling forces applied.
I am a product of you, Clint, roger, brad, Greg et al online information, and guidance. I have always appreciated all that you guys do for the community, that is why the comment struck me odd.
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Mucci,
good comments. Here is a chart I found about Powers power-bolt(the standard 5-piece SS bolt that is used at the Pinnacles).
http://www.powers.com/pdfs/mechanical/06914.pdf
On page 9 of the document it states that the minimum spacing is one length of the embedded depth where the bolt has 50% of it's strength. At two lengths of the embedded depth, the bolt achieves 100% of the load. The rub is that as you move the bolts farther apart, they have to hold more of the load to the point where each bolt can be holding 100% of the load. So, would you rather have a bolt spacing of one embedded depth which is 50% strong, but is potentially only holding 50% of the load or a bolt spacing of two embedded depths which will is 100% strong, but is holding 100% of the load.
Obviously, this is a lot of speculation. Clearly, if the rock is good the maximum distance between bolts should be no more than two times the embedded depth(which is around 7 inches as you point out).
I was unable to find the exact document that I read discussing this whole issue in depth(no pun intended). I will continue to look for it and will post up when I can find it.
There is a similar discussion on SuperTopo:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1464361/Results-of-2-inch-bolt-spacing-pull-test
More interesting reading on anchor spacing:
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/climbing-anchor-and-belay-stations
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Bruce, I gotta disagree on this one. I'll go with my gut.
Every time I see bolts that close together it makes me really nervous. I just don't think it is optimal, maybe not even safe. This feeling is probably more true in Pinnacles rock than in any other that I've ever bolted. It's a gut thing, but Mucci well explained some of the objective factors that make me feel that way.
I would never place bolts that close together.
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In granite, no prob. Pinns, only VERY judiciously.
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Bruce, I gotta disagree on this one. I'll go with my gut.
Every time I see bolts that close together it makes me really nervous. I just don't think it is optimal, maybe not even safe. This feeling is probably more true in Pinnacles rock than in any other that I've ever bolted. It's a gut thing, but Mucci well explained some of the objective factors that make me feel that way.
I would never place bolts that close together.
Brad,
I understand your concerns. I am just trying to use some physics to make educated decisions. As discussed in the Rock and Ice article I cited above you can generate more than 100% (they say up to 200%!) of the force of the rappel by having the bolts/rings far apart. This is part of the ongoing discussion of the merits of the American Triangle.
If you place the bolts that far apart one thing worth considering is putting long links of chain on the bolts to reduce the force generated by the ropes going through the rings.
Having said all that I will be modifying my spacing between anchor bolts and leaning more toward the 2x the embedded depth rather than 1x. Thanks to all of you for your input.
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Bruce,
I am listening to what you're saying. And I understand that you're talking about more than just these specific bolts.
However, if we do look at just these anchors, in this situation, we rejected chains because the area of the descent stays damp a lot and I felt that they would quickly rust. Also, I felt like simple stainless steel rings would work best where, as here, the amount of weight on these from a 45 degree angle rappel is very, very low.
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Brad,
Sounds good to me! And if I didn't say it already, thanks to you, JC and KC for doing all the hard work.
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Brad,
Sounds good to me! And if I didn't say it already, thanks to you, JC and KC for doing all the hard work.
No problem Bruce. It was a fun day and we really felt like we were doing something valuable for the whole community. Brad is right about the angle too - the raps are very mellow compared to most.