MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: mungeclimber on April 22, 2014, 09:45:07 PM
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In a couple spots it's been mentioned that for those GU FA authors at Pinns, using hooks for upward progress wasn't the way. Instead, one had to free climb past the hook placement (or at least that's what I seem to recall), before they could rest on the hook to place the protection bolt.
What then does it mean to climb past the hook? Is it just your hands, your waist, or your feet?
Any practitioners want to speak to this? I'd welcome the clarification.
Having seen some attempt at free climbing 'up to the hook' before drilling, but eventually settling back on the hook to a negative gain of altitude from the high touch point, it seemed a little odd. Perhaps this was just one person's game and not one shared by others.
Anyways, thx.
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Perhaps this was just one person's game
I ran into Jack Holmgren on No Smiles when I was 18, he sold me on his game.
Years later Kelly Rich and I climbed together one day. He explained the rules to his(and friends) game. They had a very high standard for ground-up ascents using hooks, you might ask him.
Then there is The Jim M. BROS. group who can hang from an eyetooth, pull out the drill, look down, think to themselves (the last bolt is only 15ft below me) put the drill away, climb up 10 more feet, then place a bolt.
No hooks for me. There are too many routes good for stance ascents to be explored.
Hanging on a hook at Pinns is crazy.
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Instead, one had to free climb past the hook placement (or at least that's what I seem to recall), before they could rest on the hook to place the protection bolt.
I'm confused. If you climb past the hook - how do you then rest on it?
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I'm confused. If you climb past the hook - how do you then rest on it?
jc, that's one reason I'm asking.
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Just kiss the rock and say a short prayer , then gingerly rest on your hook.
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I think the deal is to not make forward progress using aid. So instead of aid climbing up using hooks you free climb up then find a hook placement get it established then clip in and hang on it. Then think many light thoughts while drilling.
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I think the deal is to not make forward progress using aid. So instead of aid climbing up using hooks you free climb up then find a hook placement get it established then clip in and hang on it. Then think many light thoughts while drilling.
at what point is the hook placed above your head, not making forward progress? if not above, then where?
Must the hook be placed below your feet, i.e. up and then back down, or is waist to chest level the game?
If you don't free climb past the hook move before drilling, then aren't you in some sense relying on the aid 'to make forward progress' and no longer have freed that section?
It seems like a practical flaw in relying on the principle of something like 'no forward progress' from the hook, unless one proves they can climb past it before drilling? Else it must come back to using 'aid' in some form, and thus the next best principle is either 'ground up' or pure stance a la Holmgren and Clink.
K-man, are you out there?
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I tend to do things my way, and in a manner that will best suite the route I am bolting.
Climb up, check out the hooking options, and scope how the free route will go, where the clip should be made etc..
Then come back down to the previous placement, get the hook ready, go back up and throw on the hook.
From there I test it low if possible, and then climb up and down on it to find the right place to stop and drill exactly where the bolt should be for the clip.
Never once messed up a route in this fashion.
Hard to put standards on an aid drilled placement. This "don't climb on aid past your hook" is retarded. You already lost the game, and now are doing your best for the route at that point where the hooks come out.
At a high standard, where hooks are your only hope in establishing the climb, you often have to throw the hook on without inspection/testing. Maybe that is what the OP was after in the original inquiry?
I figure it is like the dreaded rap bolting fear. Will this clip be where it needs to be? If not, you must hook multiple times to get where you need to be. Then you can take your feet and find the clipping stance, that thank god crimp and then you have affirmation that you are in the right spot, and start drilling.
Trying to put rules on hooking by means of "taking what you get" is not the best option for the route. I guess to each his own.
It's all cheating at that point.
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Kman and crew would pull the rope after each placement from a hook. Then lead clean to the next one.
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At what point does a hook become a crook?
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I agree with Mucci, but Munge to answer your question. Keep it simple climb, scrub, hook, hang, drill, pound in bolt, repeat.
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Kman and crew would pull the rope after each placement from a hook. Then lead clean to the next one.
clink, interesting, and telling, but doesn't address what I think happens for some climbers where free climbing informs that first specific way of using hooks.
mucci, not really. Specific scenario that is practiced. Not looking for general or best practices. May end up with those conclusions, but anyone else see it in action?
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Or you can just cut to the chase....rappel from the top and slam in the bolts.
Done by lunch time.
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What about using hooks for pro, like that bolt chopper back east, Ken Nichols. I remember seeing a photo where he had used like seven or so in a row for pro.
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Munge-
So this practice, done by a few folks mandates you put a hook on and drill from where you rest? No climbing up in the ladders correct?
Seems like a good way to screw up a bolt placement.
Of course we are only speaking of "how" a leader gets to the point of drilling.
Aid is aid, there is no grace or pride, only an attainable summit.
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Munge, yes I agree. after hanging and drilling lower off, pull rope, next person goes up. If you do not weight the rope or a placement no need to lower off. I have used hooks and slings as placements. To be honest I have aided up on hooks and slings to get higher up in order to get a bolt higher. Then there is that whole grey area where someone puts in a bolt ladder and someone else comes along and frees it.
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So just start from the top down then....
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F4, that is satanic.
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munge just started this nonsense to take our attention away from what is really important - posting pics from the MoM weekend ;)
stance or don't dance!
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Munge, may I narrate the video of you attempting this?
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Munge-
So this practice, done by a few folks mandates you put a hook on and drill from where you rest?
yeah, not even considering ladders. This a question of 'what point can the hook be used to assist in placing the bolt.
hooks as pro is different.
clink, yes, but have to sound like burl ives
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To be honest I have aided up on hooks and slings to get higher up in order to get a bolt higher. Then there is that whole grey area where someone puts in a bolt ladder and someone else comes along and frees it.
This ground up climbing, aid, but still a hundred light years away from rap bolting. Bridwell aided No Holds Barred, later freed it.
I have always had a personal idea that if I establish a pitch on aid, I would wait a year and if no one else freed it in that time, I would then have a go at it. I did a pure aid section that went free at 5.11 by the second or third ascent party, cool summit.
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Most of the "rules" I learned a decade or more after starting to put up routes. Did not really have a mentor, just knew the ethic was bolt ground up so that was pretty much my rule. The whole Davis, Rich, Rubine crowd hung on their own and didn't really mentor or include us newbies. Talked to Gagner a bit he was always quite friendly as was Bates although he was elusive unless at REI. Did not know Holmgren was a real person vs a mystical beast until about 5 years ago and the same goes for the McCon's except that date is about 10 years ago.
So my rules probably are much more lax and not well refined. Besides I just cannot hang with those folks so I had to cheat a bit more. Ok, perhaps a lot more.
EDIT: The first person from the above crowd that I climbed with was Belizi. He climbed pretty much with anyone. His ethics kind of surprised me considering what I had heard. He always insisted lead until you fall, no matter how hard the climbing.
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Did not know Holmgren was a real person vs a mystical beast until about 5 years ago and the same goes for the McCon's except that date is about 10 years ago.
Jim is not real, some sort of mutant that can drill with either hand.
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So Munge sent me this link - interesting comments and topic, though I don't know why someone would place a hook and climb past it. When we were first putting up routes we hand drilled from stances. However, what we learned is that, in general, the steeper the rock in Pinnacles, the better the rock quality, so we started pursuing steeper lines that either didn't have stances to drill from, or we just ran it out to where there was a stance where we could drill. We were always, I think, extremely conscious of the climbing, and where the bolt needed to be to clip. In other words, we didn't get on a hook, and then ratchet up higher just to get the bolt higher. Sometimes we would put in a quarter inch bolt just to get something in fast. Really, back then we hardly thought many people would repeat many of our routes.
The alternative to hanging on hooks to place a bolt was to either not do the route, or rap bolt it, and most of us who were putting up routes at the time came from a pure ground up ethic. It seemed that, selfishly, rap bolting allowed lots of routes to be put in in a short period of time, with low/no commitment, and I had seen routes rap bolted where the bolts were placed in the wrong place for clipping.
When Bellizzi, Barbella, or the McConachi brothers and I would establish routes we would only call a route a free route once we red pointed it. It was a work-in-progress until that point, and we were always psyched to sandbag our friends from Santa Cruz on the 2nd ascent, usually done on sight.
Paul
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thx for the insight Paul. Good stuff.
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Hey Paul,
Care to share some choss pictures?
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Paul,
We have not met yet, but ever since you entered the Pinns scene there has been a difficulty introduced by your presence. Hiking up to the High Peaks yesterday it happened all over again, I said your last name one way and immediately JC said it another. There are two main takes and several variations on the pronunciation of your name.
Mr. G????????, would you be so kind as to post the proper phonetic pronunciation of your name and settle one of the all time great Pinn"s controversies, once and for all?
Clink (Jon Cochran)
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However, what we learned is that, in general, the steeper the rock in Pinnacles, the better the rock quality, so we started pursuing steeper lines that either didn't have stances to drill from, or we just ran it out to where there was a stance where we could drill.
Really, back then we hardly thought many people would repeat many of our routes.
we were always psyched to sandbag our friends on the 2nd ascent
That explains some of the routes I've done at Marmot :)
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I thought Marmot was the Jim McC play ground.
He has a good story on one of the Bolts on Heretic....drilled from stance, 2finders on the drill and 3? on the hold! Or was it 3 on the drill and 3 on the hold......
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Hi, Paul
Welcome to the forum. Do not think I have seen you since your worked at the North Face.
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Mr. G????????, would you be so kind as to post the proper phonetic pronunciation of your name and settle one of the all time great Pinn"s controversies, once and for all?
Clink (Jon Cochran)
I think there is a good story about this in the beginning of the current guide book.
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I think there is a good story about this in the beginning of the current guide book.
I just read the history section of the guidebook where Gagner is mentioned and there is nothing about how to pronounce his name. I even forfeited some of my precious spare time to peruse fore and aft that section so I wouldn't feel like I missed something.
An article/interview in the Mountain Gazette specifically states is is pronounced Gan-yay
During my perusal of the history section I was repeatedly annoyed by the erroneous spacing around the pictures. How could such blatant errors escape the all seeing eye?
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I just read the history section of the guidebook where Gagner is mentioned and there is nothing about how to pronounce his name. I even forfeited some of my precious spare time to peruse fore and aft that section so I wouldn't feel like I missed something.
An article/interview in the Mountain Gazette specifically states is is pronounced Gan-yay
During my perusal of the history section I was repeatedly annoyed by the erroneous spacing around the pictures. How could such blatant errors escape the all seeing eye?
Try the 2007 guidebook, page 11, middle of the second paragraph. And tough titties on the spacing. Do your own spacing next time... :P :P
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Try the 2007 guidebook, page 11, middle of the second paragraph. And tough titties on the spacing. Do your own spacing next time... :P :P
DAMNIT! Didn't go fore far enough. Must be this damn golfer's elbow.
I don't feel too bad after reading all the comments from you geezers on the missed arm.
WORD really screwed the pooch on that wraparound text.
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DAMNIT! Didn't go fore far enough. Must be this damn golfer's elbow.
I don't feel too bad after reading all the comments from you geezers on the missed arm.
WORD really screwed the pooch on that wraparound text.
For you it's "...all you OTHER geezers."
And it was Indesign, not Word. I'm OK with it as it is though.
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For you it's "...all you OTHER geezers."
And it was Indesign, not Word. I'm OK with it as it is though.
I figured it was some mac nonsense but WORD is notorious for doing the same kinda crap :)
I don't see how you can sleep at night ;)
You might want to consult with some major auto manufacturers to see how to organize a massive recall...
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I figured it was some mac nonsense but WORD is notorious for doing the same kinda crap :)
I don't see how you can sleep at night ;)
You might want to consult with some major auto manufacturers to see how to organize a massive recall...
To use Dennis' always perfect phrase: "DIE"
Actually here's my own perfect phrase : "E.S.A.D."*
* Eat Shit and Die. :prrr:
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D.L.
died laughing ;D
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I am climbing on granite. Posting on Munge's topic because it's partially his fault.
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I got shut down on granite. It was still fun and had to use a secret password to access the internet at Brad's. The password contains "pinns" so this post is legit.
No sighting of Munge but he is out there somewhere.
Among the numerous clean granite climbs there was a mossy route that I had to show JC.
It made him feel at home.
Carrie, my daughter, climbed a short 5.9 hand crack. We were impressed.
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I got shut down on granite. It was still fun and had to use a secret password to access the internet at Brad's. The password contains "pinns" so this post is legit.
No sighting of Munge but he is out there somewhere.
Among the numerous clean granite climbs there was a mossy route that I had to show JC.
It made him feel at home.
Carrie, my daughter, climbed a short 5.9 hand crack. We were impressed.
Lies and self slander. You got on lots of climbs and "got shut down" on what, one? In yesterday's very warm conditions.
I still can't believe how much snow there was at Burst. I expected almost none and we got "snowed out" and ended up at Potter's Rock.
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perf up at Chipmunk...
http://sonorapassclimbing.com/smf/index.php?topic=2268.msg18495#new
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sometime this summer s&fa