MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: JC w KC redux on May 27, 2015, 09:32:54 AM
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I think this issue warrants some discussion.
There are some climbs that have really old fixed pins.
What do we do when those old pieces of iron are no longer reliable - and how can that even be determined without removing the pin?
In the case of Scout Peak, the pins might still be sturdy but unfortunately they rely on relatively thin rusty rings.
They are a cool piece of history but they were also originally intended to serve as meaningful protection.
This is a tricky balance.
Sometimes there are gear placements nearby that can supplement - since limited gear options were available at the time the pins were placed. Sometimes not.
I would advocate for leaving the old pins in place for the sake of history (and preserving the rock) and possibly adding a bolt nearby if there are no viable options for good gear. This may have already been done at the Scout intermediate belay - the ring piton appeared much older than the star dryvin with Leeper hanger that we replaced.
Of course determining what is good gear at Pinns has to be done on a case-by-case basis - especially if it is an anchor.
Was a bolt added on Ordeal at the crux where the pin is above it? Or was that originally a midway anchor?
I am by no means advocating the addition of bolts to existing routes. I am only trying to find a solution to old pins that have outlived their usefulness.
Here are the pins on Scout - the first one is lead pro and the second was already combined with a bolt (which we replaced) for an intermediate belay (see Brad's guidebook).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50268381358_2b749c627f_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50268381308_7459a1cfb3_z.jpg)
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That pin looks like solid pro. What is the big deal?
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I recently took a big whipper onto a fixed pinn on Peregrine.
BOMBER
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This is an important topic and the originating post is well stated.
Maybe talk first about what considerations are priorities? And then discuss how to achieve them?
My list of priorities would go like this:
1. Don't add protection bolts to existing routes under any circumstances (although in some cases a consensus might agree that a pin should be replaced by a bolt, this is a terribly slippery slope which would likely lead others to justify adding bolts to other routes for reasons they find compelling).
2. Safety (can older fixed pins be replaced with newer/modern ones - hard to do properly but possible; maybe this should be done by the few who are experts with Pinnacles rock and with placing/removing pins?).
3. Preserve the history of different types of pro at Pinns (a tough one - Bruce probably did the right thing by replacing one of the bolts holding the garage door handle to the rock on Twinkle Toes Traverse, but somehow the handle having a proper bolt hanger on its rebolted side is pretty unsatisfying).
4. Anchors are a different issue (I don't know of any anchor at Pinns that uses only fixed pins; anchors that use any fixed pin and/or a "bolt-through-a-pin" can be easily "fixed" by placing other, nearby anchor bolts).
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I recently took a big whipper onto a fixed pinn on Peregrine.
BOMBER
Yeah, I held Joe on a significant lead fall onto a fixed pin on Tuff too. I sure wouldn't have wanted to take that fall, but the pin did hold.
But J.C.'s comment obviously isn't about every fixed pin, its about the truly old ones, the ones that "have outlived their usefulness"
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Why is it fixed pins evoke a different sense of nostalgia than leapers with star dryvns or lever out spoon hangers? SOD wall had a ton of homemade hangers on 1/4" bolts and I would not be sad in any way to see those things replaced.
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Case by nutcase. Please leave the old pins whenever possible. On Swallow there is plenty of good crack to place pro in, as to questionable replacement of an existing pin, I would go with leaving it and placing a bolt in the vicinity.
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Aaron, there is no comparison. A bolt can back placed almost anywhere.
Cool old bolts are in a class of their own.
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There is a comparison though, and he made it: "why is it fixed pins evoke a different sense of nostalgia than leapers with star dryvns or lever out spoon hangers?"
I'm not sure why, but I think you are right, the "nostalgia factor" is a little different between the two.
I know though that I've left old bolts - as part of a rebolted anchor - to preserve the history. But I've never been concerned with removing an old protection bolt and replacing it with something modern.
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In a conversation about beautiful eyebrows the discussion can be moved to include unibrows, I would keep them separate conversations though.
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In a conversation about beautiful eyebrows the discussion can be moved to include unibrows, I would keep them separate conversations though.
Wow, in one sentence you've managed to:
- Make a statement that is factually correct,
- Describe and insult J.C., and
- Raise an issue that has no apparent relationship to the topic at hand.
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Lol!
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In a conversation about beautiful eyebrows the discussion can be moved to include unibrows, I would keep them separate conversations though.
Illicited a literal LOL
Indeed - unibrows need a "separate" conversation.
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no easy answer. Both those pins are garbage. You might be able to get in a #1 Lowe Ball by that one pin. That pin that held Joe, I also removed it by hand. So how good is it, really? I would not replace that particular pin with a bolt but I just figure that if you fall and that particular pins stops said fall, it is your day.
Most of the pins that I have seen have some sort of decent protection option nearby so I figure the pin is not necessary. I personally have a general rule that I do not clip pins if there is a natural gear option. There are of course exceptions to that rule.
those two, well one already has a bolt, the other, would have to see the route.
Do not know about Ordeal, I would be surprised if it originally had a bolt considering how close the crack is but who knows.
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Most of the pins that I have seen have some sort of decent protection option nearby so I figure the pin is not necessary.
This is exactly the case for the pin in JC's first photo. There are a few spots around it where modern pro like small cams can be placed.
I know though that I've left old bolts - as part of a rebolted anchor - to preserve the history. But I've never been concerned with removing an old protection bolt and replacing it with something modern.
I agree. I enjoy getting to the top of an old route and getting the pleasant surprise of seeing a old drilled through piton, a longware hanger etc.
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I especially liked that bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith. It was the only piece, but it made me grin whenever I passed it - carefully. It's not there anymore, is it?
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I especially liked that bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith. It was the only piece, but it made me grin whenever I passed it - carefully. It's not there anymore, is it?
Rebolted in Jan 2013 - it's on my master list. Sorry I killed your fun Bob. I put in a request after climbing it in June 2012. Bruce and Clint replaced it the following January. There was some discussion about it on the rebolting thread.
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I especially liked that bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith. It was the only piece, but it made me grin whenever I passed it - carefully. It's not there anymore, is it?
When the old hardware is in it's original location it retains it's context right? I was telling JC about the first year of the Oakdale Climbers Conference and how they had a separate day for vintage gear. The old hardware, pitons, etc. lose a little something (magic and context) once they are in someone's collection and shown under a piece of plexi.
I feel like the anchors are the best place whenever we can to preserve some insight to the experience of the founders of climbing.
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The devolution of climbers;
First There was Obviously Woman.
Get Me the Hell Out of This Cave Man.
Explorer Man.
Mountaineering Man.
Piton (aid) Man.
Free Man.
Nut Man.
Cam Man.
Free Solo Man.
Sport (bolt) Man.
Boulder Man.
Forum Man.
Dawn Wall Climbers are a culmination of most of the above.
A discussion as whether Free Solo Man is a separate species or subspecies is under debate.
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Speed man?
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Sport Man is a subspecies
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Sport Man is a subspecies
I guess I'll show myself out :nonod:
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In summary - what I get from the constructive comments made is:
Leave the old pins alone unless you can expertly remove and replace them with modern pins.
Place gear to back up or avoid relying on old pins.
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Sounds about right.
Any exceptions to that are probably best circulated to see if there is some historical significance first, then see if the placement is going to deteriorate and necessitate a separate fixed piece (whether bolt or iron) in a slightly different position.
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I recently took a big whipper onto a fixed pinn on Peregrine.
You too!
Can I guess a foothold broke?
My memory is fuzzy to where a fixed pin is on Peregrine...
I agree, totally bommer.
SOD, them 1/4ers were left for fun. Clint and Bruce replaced every-other one.
Another great route!
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I guess I'll show myself out :nonod:
8)
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I guess I'll show myself out No Nod
The Back Door?
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Side door for them LaHonda folks....
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slip out the back
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I think the question about replacing pitons with bolts boils down to the quality of the piton when it was first placed. If it was a good placement that has deteriorated over time then maybe it is a candidate for replacement. If the pin was basically bogus from the beginning(The Wad in the Hanging Valley comes to mind) then it probably shouldn't be replaced. The guidebook should reflect that the piton was/is bogus by either saying something like 'worthless piton' or increasing the seriousness rating (R/X).
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Delusion Overhang?
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that went without clipping any fixed gear.
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are the pins bogus then?
would they have held a whip?
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I think one could be good. It was a philosophical decision not a placement decision.
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the original placement wasn't philosophical, it was practical.
So if was a good placement, but has deteriorated (the question), then it should be replaced under the rule Bruce is exploring here.
If it was bogus at the time of install, e.g. the aid rating might indicate it's worth at the time, then the descriptions and ratings are to be changed.
Bounce testing it on aid should resolve the question.
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the original placement wasn't philosophical, it was practical.
So if was a good placement, but has deteriorated (the question), then it should be replaced under the rule Bruce is exploring here.
If it was bogus at the time of install, e.g. the aid rating might indicate it's worth at the time, then the descriptions and ratings are to be changed.
Bounce testing it on aid should resolve the question.
Would be worthy to approach climbing it with a then and now perspective, it's A2 in the Roper Guide.
It was a philosophical decision not a placement decision.
Mud is a philosopher. His FA's may be more philosophical than practical from the reports.
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Lucas has a some reservations on all this talk....Pitons, good?
(https://ebratton2120.smugmug.com/Photography/Misc-Stuff/i-kDt6nQf/0/XL/lucas_Puzzle-XL.jpg)
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Lucas has a some reservations on all this talk....Pitons, good?
Yeah, I know what you mean. All this talk curled Tricia's hair!
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5617/21934820938_6103b40cb5_c.jpg)
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My buddy, Jeff Vance, put up Delusion Overhang (now over 40 years ago!). I will ask him about the quality of the pins way back then and post his reply.
This particular discussion raises the question of freeing old aid routes. Not sure what seems OK in this situation. If people are still aiding the route then adding bolts definitely changes the character. If repeated piton placements degrade the rock then that is another consideration. Hmmm.
In the mid-70's in the Valley a lot of the aid routes were being freed. Climbers would place a fixed pin or two or three to provide protection only to come back a few days later and find that somebody aiding the route had cleaned the gear(Booty!). Kind of funny, but a different sort of problem.
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If repeated piton placements degrade the rock then that is another consideration
an issue on granite, as well as rhyolite, but destruction is slower. Does a bolt better replace the quality of the pin at the time it was placed?
For example, we would not replace the pins on Premeditated with bolts.
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Put the bolts in after the piton placement has been "enlarged enough" for free climbing.
Nobody is perfect....
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When freeing aid lines all attempts should be made to not use fixed gear. A leader should be willing to risk life and limb. Depending on the day of course.
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Talked with my buddy Jeff Vance. He doesn't remember any of the piton placements on the FA of Delusion Overhang to be on the sketchy side. Of course, now that we are all clean climbers I am not sure what that means unless someone whats to go up there and put in a few pins for protection if nuts and cams aren't any good.
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Depending on the day of course.
Or decade.
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For example, we would not replace the pins on Premeditated with bolts.
Not even long glue-ins? the glue would bond the rock together...
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Talked with my buddy Jeff Vance. He doesn't remember any of the piton placements on the FA of Delusion Overhang to be on the sketchy side. Of course, now that we are all clean climbers I am not sure what that means unless someone whats to go up there and put in a few pins for protection if nuts and cams aren't any good.
nuts, friends and cams seemed fine to me.
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Lucas in 25 years
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maybe, not big enough...he will be a tank.
:o
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Depending on the day of course.
Truer words were never spoken.