MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: JC w KC redux on August 13, 2016, 05:07:11 PM
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There has been some talk of highlining in the Pinns for a few months now.
Aaron recently showed me a post on Mtn Project of someone rigging a line at Big Bad West.
Kat and I were on the west side today so we decided to check it out.
My main concern was to answer two questions.
Are the climbing anchors being used for this activity?
If so, how much stress are we talking about and is this reason for concern?
Kat wanted to lead some stuff today to get her head back in the game so we decided to start on Big Bad West.
I was originally just going to walk up there and check it out.
When she got to the top, she discovered some new bolts on the flat area a few feet below the existing climbing anchor.
There were four hangerless half inch studs.
I took these pics and we went on with our day. Scroll right to see the 4th bolt on the first pic.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3dMa2tsIeJwDN1BP94DIwISuOOcBttQ3LAHB42NftA0xl2E5EvB5n_rUUTJU2vJfKHeiubv96oxdLQ7v4WGUdKHmaxk_wSDwU5AT6kcSmiXkTTtgevucO4L_vFE42XjmQqelklYMZ2423RbUNC-xN3f=w1006-h316-no?authuser=0)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eM2Dve4baVcyLzmO0jWo72qTrF75ZGJfqMrm-UD4B-YxTN76je0S5rhU6W66gB9tJuW-5gF5bar1TGNTIG_IeWBlv2FGb30kZR4PVf2fcGTiyHLfyz3I400YO5OWdPMTCvIjFSFwPFNmIMn5ig3WiR=w321-h625-no?authuser=0)
On the way out, we had the good fortune to run into Simon working on the rigging for the line.
We struck up a conversation and I let him know I would open up a discussion on here to see how people feel about it and how we can work together for a harmonious outcome.
I am sure Simon will want to chime in at some point.
Here is what I know so far.
Simon is a long time climber and lover of Pinnacles.
He has respect for the crud and is familiar with Pinnacles climbing ethics.
He has a background in construction and a solid knowledge of the forces at work.
He explained to me that there was about 1200 pounds of tension on the line he had up.
He also explained that this far exceeded the kind of force he would want to put on a climbing anchor.
We talked at length about some other potential places he had in mind at Pinnacles and how highlining might mesh with climbing.
I did not know this, but evidently most people that highline are climbers.
I told him that at this point my biggest concern was encroachment or potential modification of existing climbing routes.
He is concerned as well and wants to work with the Pinnacles community to find good solutions.
I think as things evolve, we will want to think about ways we can share the resource in a way that works for everyone.
I can see some potential confusion if highline anchors are constructed on or near existing climbing routes or rappel stations.
Simon said he put 3 link pieces of 3/8 stainless chain on all the bolts today.
I thought of these potential issues after Kat and I finished talking to Simon.
Will people confuse the highline anchor on BBW for the climbing anchor?
What could we use to distinguish a highline anchor from a climbing anchor?
How can we get that information out to the public? (other than on here?)
Will people be confused by the number of bolts compared to the guidebook or get the idea that it is okay to add bolts to routes?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3ddtdbU6lryUD8XJOxbLyXhbKs00xdsEFWVwsLXAWYFVGD-_tryLGMWXjXISJ50ZucE78zpyht8kKBhZrqADdr0pmkFeU7_v9uxmj_3pyzOmjCnAX9lRqN8hB_P99rIbx1NuHoCMZ1yNYFPc82aPNrD=s600-no?authuser=0)
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Bruce obviously has the gift of prophecy.
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We talked at length about some other potential places he had in mind at Pinnacles and how highlining might mesh with climbing.
Do you know how many other potential spots he has in mind and how many involve free standing pinnacles?
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I for one would not like to see additional anchors on top of free standing pinnacles. Especially the smaller ones that can be seen from the trails. Even current climbing anchors that can be seen from the trail that are not camouflaged bug me big time. Some examples would be the chains on the Cinder and the long chains on top of Monolith for Ranger Bolts.
With that said I have to ask this question: How is the average person supposed to differentiate between climbing anchors and high lining anchors? Of course, they cannot and when and if small free standing pinnacles have multiple anchors on top of them the climbers will be accredited with their installation because the climbers established the routes. The climbers in turn are the ones that enabled the high liners to access the top of the pinnacles by establishing the routes. These pinnacles and their ascents in my opinion are historic.
When we establish new routes we try to think of the ways that hardware has the least impact on our limited resources. An example of this would be using one anchor for multiple routes on free standing (or even formations with walk offs) pinnacles. I feel that Pinnacles is one of the few places where routes exist with no anchor and thought is given and opportunity is taken to use body position for belay and pinnacles rappells.
Now don't get me wrong I love adventure and having fun and I think that slack lining and high lining definitely fall into both categories. I also understand that a small portion of climbers high line but the majority of climbers do not. I would like to propose that new anchors for high lining are installed rim to rim and try to avoid installing additional anchors to free standing pinnacles. Also all of the new anchors be camouflaged/painted out.
Have fun out there.
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Some guiding thoughts:
1. Retrobolts on the lead part of the climbs will be pulled and patched. Non-negotiable. BBW seems to be the first.
2. Pinnacles Rappels from spires should preferably remain this way. There are ways of rigging an anchor for highlining without leaving an anchor on top (anchor on top obviates the need for the Pinnacles Rappel). Then again, I'm not sure the Pinnacles Rappel is as much a requirement from ethics rather than something fun to do and saves time from drilling to get down.
3. No highlines on questionable pinnacles, e.g. slender pinnacles that might sheer off. Not likely that a highline artist would want to do this, but who knows what crazy lurks in the hearts of men (or women). I mean, almost all of us have solo'd on chunky junk, so crazy is as crazy does.
4. Camouflage should be encouraged.
5. Fewer highlines rather than many highlines, in a couple good spots, could avoid a 'circus' atmosphere that would otherwise mean bringing land managers close regulatory eye.
6. Honor voluntary raptor closures.
7. Be safe, have fun.
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Good and thoughtful input so far.
I am hoping Simon will get on here and keep the discussion fruitful.
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Hey everyone,
I am Simon's brother. I am not a highliner myself, but I did help install the anchors and rig on his line, Spaghetti Western off the Passion Play Wall, and may be able to answer some questions as to what is going on in his head.
We both love the Pinnacles and respect the fact that routes, and the anchors, belong to the first ascensionist and that changing/altering their routes is wrong. He doesn't want to encroach either, and realizes we may have done this on BBW, and has spoken of removing and patching the bolts himself. He does not want to use existing climbing anchors, nor does he want to crowd the tops of pinnacles with more anchors than what already exists. Instead, he wants to use natural anchors (i.e. trees, slings, etc.) whenever possible.
As far as deciphering a highline, or at least his highline anchors, is that they will not have hangers, but instead chains directly fastened to the studs themselves. This facilitates a quick, strong, and simple rig.
He was shut down by a ranger who stated that he is not permitted to anchor off a living thing, which in this case, was the large pine tree beside the Split Boulders, across the canyon from Passion Play. Simon had the tree protected and had a relatively low tension line going, but he did not want to argue with the ranger. Keep in mind, other rangers and search and rescue personell witnessed him walking and rigging the line and said nothing.
Simon has visions of highlining all over the park and wants to bring the community together here at the Pinnacles. He will be on here soon to speak his own mind as to what is happening, but in the meantime, feel free to ask any questions, and if I can't answer them, I will ask Simon myself and relay the answers back.
Max
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My concern with highliners high lining all over the park is anchors with chains all over the place. I think if he/they select sites where the anchors on not visible from the ground there will be fewer issues. Also since just about every summit already has anchors it will be difficult not to separate climbing anchors with highlining anchors.
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Thanks for getting on here Max. I think we have a good discussion happening.
I think the idea of using natural anchors is a really good one.
Simon was talking about looping over the top of some free-standing pinnacles, which would leave no trace.
I haven't paid that much attention to it in the past but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some smaller free-standing pinnacles without routes on hillsides that might provide some excitement - providing you can get to them without too much impact.
That's a bummer about the ranger. It looked to me like Simon had taken precautions not to hurt that big tree.
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Thanks for getting on here Max. I think we have a good discussion happening.
I think the idea of using natural anchors is a really good one.
Simon was talking about looping over the top of some free-standing pinnacles, which would leave no trace.
I haven't paid that much attention to it in the past but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some smaller free-standing pinnacles without routes on hillsides that might provide some excitement - providing you can get to them without too much impact.
That's a bummer about the ranger. It looked to me like Simon had taken precautions not to hurt that big tree.
It is a bummer about what happened with the ranger shutting Simon down. Simon was using all the precautions for protecting the tree that Yosemite mandates. After the incident, we spoke to Daniel with SAR and he believes that the ranger shut it down because the Pinnacles had never seen this (highlining) before and wasn't sure how to deal with it. He suggested we get in contact with Gavin and see what his views are and hear what he has to say.
Simon really wants to do this the right way and not stir up any controversies, although, it is inevitably going to happen when something new like this comes onto the scene. Simon is currently contacting a slackline access group to possibly help with some of the issues. He also wants very much so to bring the climbing and highline community together here to work out these issues so that we can all enjoy our own adventures in a pristine wilderness.
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I enjoy high lining but not the potential for a carnivalistic atmosphere that it can bring. This is an important discussion the park will need to tackle as highlining is still very young and increasing in popularity. The sky is the limit and rules need to be set. I'm pretty psyched to see what gets walked at the pinns as there is so much potential. And just for a note Ivo Ninov and Patrick Lewis were the first to highline at the pinns sometime between 2000 and 2004 when the walked to the monolith.
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still very young and increasing in popularity
I know.
The sky is the limit
Unless you do BASE. Running an obstacle course where earth and sky meet.
Nice to see you on here Atomizer.
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I enjoy high lining but not the potential for a carnivalistic atmosphere that it can bring.
I would definitely not want to see the Pinnacles turn into some carnie playground.
But I believe if the highlines are set with thought towards minimum impact, aesthetics, nearby climbing routes/anchors, and whether or not it is worth it, "does the Pinns 'need' this highline?" Instead of having highlines everywhere with unsightly anchors on the top of every formation, have just a few select classics(think the fingers or fingers to condor crag), preferably with natural anchors or camouflaged/hidden bolts. I think that it could be really awesome.
All these issues do need to be discussed and the park does need to lay down a set of rules and regulations for the highliners to adhere to. Is it really illegal for us to anchor off of a tree because it is a living organism?
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The answer to the tree question is complicated so the park service defaults to no you cannot do this. If you picked a Redwood a large Fir probably not an issue. But, some trees are more sensitive. The Bull Pines that are around the Pinnacles can be sensitive to traffic around their base. There are a few that are near well traveled climbing area's have have fallen or in the process of falling primarily due to traffic and erosion around the base which weakens the root system. It is difficult for the park service to say this tree is ok this one is not. Some of us are reasonable and will say yeah ok I understand and will work with them. But there is always that 10% that want to push every point. This causes the park service to make blanket statements.
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Some of us are reasonable and will say yeah ok I understand and will work with them. But there is always that 10% that want to push every point. This causes the park service to make blanket statements.
I agree, it's much better to just accept what the ranger says instead of being a dick and possibly ruining it for everyone. Simon just accepted that the ranger didn't like it and he had his rig down within 15 minutes. That pine by the Split Boulders is huge (in my opinion), and Simon used protection, but yeah, it's still a living thing and it's sensitive.
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Simon registered and has been wanting to get on here for a long time, but he is still waiting approval. It's been months now. It only took a night for me.
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I do not see any members waiting for approval. Can you have him try and re-register or provide the username that he registered and it will be looked into.
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I do not see any members waiting for approval. Can you have him try and re-register or provide the username that he registered and it will be looked into.
he registered under the name cvsimon
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Max, I had a difficult time getting on as well.
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Max, I had a difficult time getting on as well.
but that was planned.
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It shows that he is registered
Name: Cvsimon
Posts: 0 (0 per day)
Position: LoadStone Lovers
Date Registered: 15 August 2016, 12:55:13
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Simon registered and has been wanting to get on here for a long time, but he is still waiting approval. It's been months now. It only took a night for me.
It was approved within minutes. I wonder if the notification email ended up in his Spam folder. Can you help let him know? Give a holler if he has trouble logging in. (If password is forgotten, he can just follow the link to reset the password instantly.)
Apparently, his MudnCrud membership just celebrated its monthiversary without him.
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It was approved within minutes. I wonder if the notification email ended up in his Spam folder. Can you help let him know? Give a holler if he has trouble logging in. (If password is forgotten, he can just follow the link to reset the password instantly.)
Apparently, his MudnCrud membership just celebrated its monthiversary without him.
That's what I figured happened. I'll let him know. Thanks!
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but that was planned.
... and I assumed I was just stupid.
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... and I assumed I was just stupid.
well you might not be all wrong
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Max, I had a difficult time getting on as well.
If you think that is hard you should try getting on the you-knee-sigh-kill :crazy:
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Hello to all,
First off I apologize for taking such time to finally get on here. I am the one who had set the line that started this discussion. I have read up on all the discussion going on and agree with much of it. My experience with the pinns started with with climbing and after I got into highlines I could not help but see the possibility. I definitely agree that highlines should not be rigged off of climbing anchors. In other areas some climbing anchors have been beefed up to bolts that can hand the forces and still be safe for all sports. This was something I was curious to what all your thoughts were on this. Also as for the topic of more bolts on top of pinnacles; I love the areas history of rope tricks and believe implementing large slings and wraps on pinnacles is necessary. When speaking towards bolt confusion it is very common to leave anchors as studs and highliners bring necessary hangers. Other times anchors are simply glue in eye bolts in a typical anchor pattern, which is not any kind of climbing anchor I have seen. I look forward to hearing more from everyone and working towards a coexistence
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Good to hear from you Simon.
I looked for you on my way out of the west side Friday. I was over working on Drizzly Drain.
Have you signed up for the PCAD yet?
I hope you and Max can make it out to work and hang out and climb some of our new routes :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin:
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Good to hear from you Simon.
I looked for you on my way out of the west side Friday. I was over working on Drizzly Drain.
Have you signed up for the PCAD yet?
I hope you and Max can make it out to work and hang out and climb some of our new routes :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin:
Unfortunately I haven't been out there any time recently. I just checked the dates and sadly il be out of town and unable to make it to this years event. Hope to see you out there another time
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Unfortunately I haven't been out there any time recently. I just checked the dates and sadly il be out of town and unable to make it to this years event. Hope to see you out there another time
Bummer.
I am hoping to get back down soon and work on the rest of the Southeast Face of Flumes.
I still need to work on Flames Face and Flimsy Flume.
We usually do a Masters of Mud get together in April if you're around. :biggrin:
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Good to hear from you Simon.
I looked for you on my way out of the west side Friday. I was over working on Drizzly Drain.
Have you signed up for the PCAD yet?
I hope you and Max can make it out to work and hang out and climb some of our new routes :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin:
I'll be at the PCAD this year. I'm stoked to be getting out there this year, finally!
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What do people think about beefing up anchors on top of pinnacles to be used for both climbing and highlining. I have heard of a few crags that share their anchors with highliners.
I think titanium glue ins would be pretty bomber, but what do you guys think? Simon?
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What do people think about beefing up anchors on top of pinnacles to be used for both climbing and highlining. I have heard of a few crags that share their anchors with highliners.
I think titanium glue ins would be pretty bomber, but what do you guys think? Simon?
The standard bolts for highlines have become either segments of 1/2" threaded rod( typically around 6"), fixe SS 3/8"x6-1/2" glue ins, of even Titan climbing titanium bolts. Minimum of 316ss though. I have recently heard in Europe some highline anchors actually are left with ID tags (or simply left as studs) to eliminate confusion/accidental use. Tags could be maybe implemented on a formation or wall away from climbing descents to prevent the unaware from a rap to nowhere Thoughts, concerns?
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The standard bolts for highlines have become either segments of 1/2" threaded rod( typically around 6"), fixe SS 3/8"x6-1/2" glue ins, of even Titan climbing titanium bolts. Minimum of 316ss though. I have recently heard in Europe some highline anchors actually are left with ID tags (or simply left as studs) to eliminate confusion/accidental use. Thoughts, concerns?
Natural anchors, or beefing up a bolted anchor(as a last resort) seems like the best options to me.
Does anyone know what anchors Ivo used back when he highlined off the Monolith? Did he use the climbing anchor?
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I have recently heard in Europe some highline anchors actually are left with ID tags (or simply left as studs) to eliminate confusion/accidental use. Tags could be maybe implemented on a formation or wall away from climbing descents to prevent the unaware from a rap to nowhere Thoughts, concerns?
The tags would be a good idea in that sense. What would the tags look like? Similar to the little engraved plates like seen on some rap anchors on El Cap?
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The tags would be a good idea in that sense. What would they look like? Similar to the little engraved plates like seen on some rap anchors on El Cap?
No idea on what those plates look like or what others use but running with the idea easiest I was thinking was dog tags printed at a military surplus store attached to a bolt
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Seems others are hesitant to chime in.
I think it best to keep the two types of anchors separate.
I would say that if it is necessary to install bolts, just make sure they are only on the summits and don't come into play when climbing the established routes to those summits.
Leaving the bolts without hangers will defintely help solve any confusion issues and adding tags would be great.
How are the tags attached to the bolts?
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Seems others are hesitant to chime in.
I think it best to keep the two types of anchors separate.
I would say that if it is necessary to install bolts, just make sure they are only on the summits and don't come into play when climbing the established routes to those summits.
Leaving the bolts without hangers will defintely help solve any confusion issues and adding tags would be great.
How are the tags attached to the bolts?
I was considering just a small wire swage to attach it to hangers or if left with no hangers leaving at least one bolt with a nut on it to keep the tag in place. Definitely appreciate the input on opinion of combined anchors. It's all about the balancing out!
Anyone else out here with thoughts concerns ideas? I'm still trying to feel out what the general consensus is in the park. I know a lot fear a carnival atmosphere growing from it but It may set minds at ease to know our strict no power tools drilling has deterred almost all from the idea of the pinns considered the time required. This in itself will prevent such a scene; in areas where the carnival style emerges power tools are standard and so few highliners even would consider such effort.
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Just a heads up guys that someone removed the nuts and washers from your anchor at the top of Big Bad West.
Not cool.
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https://www.mountainproject.com/v/highlining-pinnacles-national-park/111808374
It appears the park wants to be involved in decisions concerning highlining anchors.
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https://www.mountainproject.com/v/highlining-pinnacles-national-park/111808374
It appears the park wants to be involved in decisions concerning highlining anchors.
Thanks NORM.
Yep. I already saw that. I had an alert set on mtn proj to notify me if there was any more discussion.
I haven't had a chance to ask anyone at the Pinns to see what and if anything is being done.
I wanted to cross post in case the guys check, so they'll know someone absconded with part of their hardware.