MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: JC w KC redux on December 20, 2017, 05:36:52 PM
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Well...it's official...I have all the real Pinns guidebooks (this omits Jonathan Richards).
I have perused JR's pages at Brad's casa and everything here naming Richards refers to Chuck.
My eyes are still a bit too dilated (from my visit to the eye doctor) for a complete reading, so I'll have to dive into Gagner tomorrow (I just got my copy today). My initial impression is a mixture of curiosity and disappointment. Only 18 pages in 10 years? The cover sketch is a hoot. It is a really clean copy but someone seems to have slammed two staples through the pages with no exit wound. The cover glue is partially separated in the front and back. I seriously doubt the staples are supposed to be there but I just thought I'd ask those who also own a copy. Did the publisher use staples on the interior binding?
I'll report back later but a quick blurry run through uncovers the fact that Gagner evidently did not believe in listing safety ratings and many of his ratings are vastly different from the other books (lowered difficulty). He doesn't even mention the safety designations in his intro pages. Neither do Roper or Richards. I find this very interesting given the current discussion of new routes and safety in general.
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Most interesting part of the intro pages (to me).
The extraordinarily bad geology info.
The note about Beyer's climbing style.
Now on to the route descriptions...
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Two staples in my copy.
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Two staples in my copy.
Thanks dude. :thumbup: :biggrin:
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So is it Gone-yay or Gag-ner?
Gone :thumbup:
:puke: ner
Appauling, I know.
What is Paul Gagner and the other guidebook writers doing nowadays? They all had a huge love for the place to put in the labor on a guide.
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https://www.instagram.com/clmbrlifr/?hl=en (https://www.instagram.com/clmbrlifr/?hl=en)
he's climbing a lot.
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So far I have pages 20 and 90 missing or the book is simply mis-numbered (I think it is the latter).
I just got to Hanging Valley - which he omitted. That explains a few pages.
I would like to personally thank Gagner for continuing to perpetuate the myths about Crud and Mud that allowed me and clink to have some of the best days of our lives some 30+ years later :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin: :ihih:
I just finished laughing after reading the comments he included from Beyer regarding Fear and Perspiration.
I think Noal has shared those with us previously.
One thing I have to say about the old format listing the FA with the description is...I like it.
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Written descriptions have some of the best surprises.
Gone yay.
Yeah, he’s on supertopo too. Killing the big wall situation at Fischers and El Cap. True mountain spirit.
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Go Gone-yay!
Meanwhile, I am perpetuating the myth that I am a climber.
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I think previously safety ratings were omitted because at the time climbing was considered more of an adventure sport so risk was a given. I think Beyer was given a note because he is/was a bit of a legend. Perhaps a complete nut but perhaps that is what it takes. If you climb all his routes you realize there is a certain style to them which sets them apart. The Gagner book was my first guidebook ( not in real good shape anymore ).
By the way Gagner was a very good climber that has done a ton of climbing and quality FA's ( Lunatic Fringe ). I think his ratings are fairly accurate. Back in the Stone Master days he was considered one of the best boulderers of the day. I am glad to say that I actually watched him climb at the Pins. One of the smoothest climbers you will ever see and one of the few people I have seen actually do a toe hook above their head while on lead. On the rock he was amazing to watch. He was also a very humble and kind person ( from my experience ). I really admired this guy, I was just starting to climb and would talk to him on occasion at REI and North Face.
I like the Richards guide. It definitely has its faults but I like it, I really like his drawings and yes I am aware of its short comings.
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there is a certain style to them which sets them apart
Yeah, some Beyer routes were intentionally meant to sabotage. lol
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Perhaps it would be better to say he is a very good climber instead of was. But, I am not aware of what he is currently doing as I am completely out of the loop.
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Thanks for sharing Mud. I don't mean to be negative or take anything away from the man. No guidebook is perfect and I have a pretty good idea of the amount of work it takes to put something together and make it accurate. While I was reading and in particular looking at his ratings I wondered if this might have been your first book. :lol: I was also recalling that there was a time when 5.7 and 5.9 were the top of the scale. I mainly like having all the books so I can look up routes I haven't done yet (or ones I have) and see what the differences are. I noticed that Gagner has specific recommendations for iron that the other older books do not list. It's hard to say how many of the old routes were climbed with pins that were then removed - and let's face it - the scars left from those placements in mud are not as clean or apparent as they typically are in harder rock. :madman: There were a few surprises that really caught my eye. For instance, he mentions climbing past several lead bolts on p1 of the Salathe (on The Hand) when there is only one. He also sometimes combines routes with other routes - for example - Japanese Water Torture and Nodal Line, Toog's Terror and Toog's Alligator, Alias Bandit Bench and True Grit. It would be cool to have a document that has every shared route description in one place and in chronological order.
As for the older books (I don't include Brad's book since it is the current guide), I like the Chuck Richards Guide the best. It is the best looking, made the best (cover, binding, photos) and his sense of humor and writing style really appeal to me.
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The Young Dawson guide is way out of date. I hope someone does a new guide soon. :)
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5.9 was the top of the scale a really long time ago. 5.13 was out before the Gagner guide. Climbers and grades have just gotten softer. When I started climbing at the Pins it was common to see a rack ( consisting of more than draws ) at Discovery Wall. It was fairly common to see climbers with slings. Times change. Safety is a big issue, adventure is an option. Not saying either time is better, just different. From what I see and experience, climbers and grades are softer.
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Ya'll go ahead and keep your hands off my love handles.
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Not a chance
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Insert Quote
The Young Dawson guide is way out of date. I hope someone does a new guide soon.
It's criminal.
Such amazing routes like Los Banditos are not in the guide.
Now were the guide author to adopt the Apple or Microsoft strategy, they would release a new guide every 3 years.
Print the book with ink would start to fade after 3 years, forcing you to upgrade.
:o
These days, I tend to leave the guide home and just call Mr. Mud at work for Beta.
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My copy of Gagner's book is stapled (and both have slight rust on them). It is also missing pages 19 through 21 (recall me calling you about that - and you didn't yet have the book!).
Two other notes:
- First ascent info with the route name and description automatically makes each entry longer. Although I also like that information with the route, that like is outweighed by the annoyance of having routes spread onto pages way before and/or way after where they appear on topos or photos. Another factor is "route trivia." Those who own the Sonora Pass guidebook know that in that book's first ascent appendix I included trivia about the route in about every tenth or fifteenth entry. I hope to try something like that with this new edition and listing the "trivia" with the route listing wouldn't be practical.
- What I call "danger" ratings (someone up thread called them safety ratings - either works) are relatively new to climbing guidebooks. David Rubine's 1991 Pinnacles guidebook is one of the first I recall that had them. Chockstone Press (the 1991 Pinns guide publisher) also published the 1987 Yosemite Valley guidebook and the 1988 Sierra Nevada East Side book. Neither used danger ratings.
(Now back to my cake; I can almost see it now under the remaining whipped cream.)
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My copy of Gagner's book is stapled (and both have slight rust on them).
Hey, that means that they're not stainless steel staples, right? ;D
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My copy of Gagner's book is stapled (and both have slight rust on them). It is also missing pages 19 through 21 (recall me calling you about that - and you didn't yet have the book!).
Munge or others - Do you guys have pages 20 and 90?
Mine goes 19, 21 and 89, 91
(Now back to my cake; I can almost see it now under the remaining whipped cream.)
Do you enjoy the leftover nitrous when the whip cream runs out? :lol: :thumbup: :biggrin:
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No page 20 or 90. Mine still has the 12.95 sticker on the back. Binding is worn.
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I think I have ya'll beat....pops handed down to me old, old pinnacles monument guide books..no climbing.
I need to locate them in the library.
I personally prefer the Blue guide with all it's flaws and ratings...
Carry on with the guide book love fest...
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I wonder if Brad and Steve are going to be asking F4 and myself to voice and provide commentary for the audio version of the 2020 guide?
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No page 20 or 90. Mine still has the 12.95 sticker on the back. Binding is worn.
Thanks dude - mystery solved.
Mine has some residue on the front cover from the sticker.
Binding isn't great but the design is partly to blame.
Who is that on the cover?
Looks like a 70's porn star :lol:
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I wonder if Brad and Steve are going to be asking F4 and myself to voice and provide commentary for the audio version of the 2020 guide?
F4 and me :lol: :yesnod: :prrr:
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I was writing in the second person.
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Yup, can't keep me quiet!!!
Color pictures
not too think
PinnaleS National Monument (Aka Park)
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not sure. Bellizi or one of the old Santa Cruz folks might know.
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https://www.instagram.com/clmbrlifr/?hl=en (https://www.instagram.com/clmbrlifr/?hl=en)
he's climbing a lot.
Great link and some spectacular shots in amazing locations - thanks for sharing :biggrin:
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So far I have the following guidebooks:
A Climber's Guide To Pinnacles National Monument, David Hummack, Sierra Club, 1955.
A Climber's Guide To Pinnacles National Monument, Steve Roper, The Ski Hut, 1966.
Pinnacles Climber's Guide, Chuck Richards, Recreational And Travel Enterprises, 1974.
A Rock Climbers Guide To Pinnacles National Monument, Paul G. Gagner, self-published, 1983.
Pinnacales Guide (sic), Elvin R. Johnson & Richard P. Cordone, La Siesta Press, 1984. Not really a climbing guidebook, but mentions climbing and has a section on it. It is interesting that the incorrect spelling of Pinnacles is repeated throughout the entire book.
Climber's Guide Pinnacles National Monument, Dave Rubine, Chockstone Press, 1991.
Climber's Guide Pinnacles National Monument, Second Edition, David Rubine, Chockstone Press, 1995.
A Climber's Guide To Pinnacles National Monument, Brad Young, self-published, 2007.
Are there any other guidebooks? I am aware that there are lists of climbs in the Sierra Club Yoddler prior to the Hammock guidebook and have a photocopy of one of these, but I do not really consider these guidebooks.
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Jonathan Richards guide.
Would love to have one.
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Well there is the guide in mr mud’s head!
Hard to print, but light weight.
;D
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Hah!
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Well there is the guide in mr mud’s head!
Hard to print, but light weight.
;D
Mud can be quite dense depending on whether it is saturated or dessicated :biggrin: :yesnod: :lol:
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desecrated
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Jonathan Richards guide.
Would love to have one.
I don't have an extra, but here's a taste of it (calling it a "guidebook" may be too generous):
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/787/41176602322_d706c95cf3_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/874/41176600922_8ce2737037_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/794/41176599332_16fac3c823_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/899/41176597832_b6841da788_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/881/41176596642_b218d43902_b.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/812/40506734024_8b97723c59_c.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/785/40324312125_9271347e45_b.jpg)
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Train wreck.
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Train wreck.
It gets worse.
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Must not have had a proof reader.
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Thanks for posting those photos climber dude. I have wanted a copy of that thing for awhile so it's cool to see. If anyone has a copy and does not consider it a legit guide or does not value it for some reason I am willing to purchase it from you.
Richards was by no means perfect and yeah he did some bad stuff but despite his shortcomings and bad decisions it is obvious that he had a love for the Pinnacles.
A big influence on my life is the D.I.Y. punk scene of the late 1980's and 90's. When I was a teenager we formed bands, booked our own shows across the country, put out our own records, Xeroxed our own flyers and magazines (Like richard's guide) printed our own t shirts and created our own culture and scene .
When I started climbing i was really struck by the similarities there are between the D.I.Y. scene and climbers. Both groups drove around the country in vans, slept on friends floors/ camped out,were resourceful, and generally had a seperate lifestyle from the mainstream.
Unfortunately in both groups there were some vibrant, bright, entertaining characters, who succumbed to drug addiction, alcohol abuse, and depression. Some of these folks were a pleasure to be around and some were real bastards but definitely free spirits.
There is a lot of beauty in imperfection. It is easier to demonize and judge someone than it is try to find commonalities and forgiveness. Richards is a part of Pinnacles climbing history whether you like it or not. Warts and all. May his soul be in a better place.
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Well said Noal. :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin:
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Well said Noal.
I agree
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I like where it says call collect for route info. There's a certain charm about understanding the need to call collect BITD.
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I like where it says call collect for route info. There's a certain charm about understanding the need to call collect BITD.
Notice too that Carmel was in the (408) area code then!
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Imagine there were originally only 3 area codes for California.
415 went all the way to Bakersfield. Everybody was under the BAP code.
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Notice too that Carmel was in the (408) area code then!
Lousy Central Coast folks...we finally kicked them and the Santa Cruz folks out of 408.
When I got james a phone in December 408 was not available!
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Imagine there were originally only 3 area codes for California.
415 went all the way to Bakersfield. Everybody was under the BAP code.
So, Brad at heart is a BAP
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NOAL The punk thing was big is my life too, but an earlier generation. 77-early 80s. never in bands buts friends with lots of west Sacramento and Stockton bands and the lager bands coming through. It was too bad about all the drugs, luckily they never interested me. Just last week a local drummer here died. at 62, don't think he ever stopped drinking. One of the Sacramento bands, Sewer Trout had a lead singer who was a good climber. He had his band rerecord their first cassette as The New Vulgarians and did all climbing songs. Sadly he killed himself I think in the late 90's.
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So, Brad at heart is a BAP
OWN IT! :lol:
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Speaking of guidebooks, we met some nice kids by the Res yesterday on our way out and talked their ears off. Chris was a knowledgeable young man from Berkeley with 4 young ladies in tow. :ihih: He had a fresh-looking copy of the guidebook and we proceeded to share lots of route info and tips with them. I hope they made it up to The Sisters for some more fun to end their day and maybe we'll hear from them on here.
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One of the Sacramento bands, Sewer Trout had a lead singer who was a good climber. He had his band rerecord their first cassette as The New Vulgarians and did all climbing songs. Sadly he killed himself I think in the late 90's.
Jim and his brother Hal are old friends of mine too! I once went on a tour to the Pacific Northwest with one of Hal's bands The Lizards. We stayed at Jim's house in Portland. They are two of the funniest and fun people to hang out with.
Sacramento and Stockton had a great punk scene in the nineties. Somewhere I have a family tree type diagram of Sacto bands which shows that everybody played in each other's bands.( Kind of like Pinnacles FA's)Great place to visit for house parties. I like the bands NAR, Pounded Clown, Sea Pigs, LIZARDS, Bananas,Horny Mormons.
Just last week a local drummer here died. at 62, don't think he ever stopped drinking
Sad news. Was it Dave from the Sea Pigs? Amazing drummer!
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Tim Terral (sp) He was into punk very early 77 or so. He was 62 years old, a couple of years older than me even. I did not know him until a couple of years later. He played in a Stockton band the authorities but he played in all types of bands thought the 80's I think, but am not sure drink got the best of him. The bands names all sound familiar but I was more involved in an earlier generation. One of my best friends started and ran Club Minimal in Sac. (Stewart Katz) throughout the early 80's.