MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: Zay on December 03, 2018, 07:31:52 AM
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Hey guys,
Ive been really desperate to get some practice removing and replacing bolts at Pinnacles. JC was kind enough to bestow some hands on learning, that guy is like a triple black belt on rebolting. But that was long enough ago that knowledge grows fuzzy without practice. I really want to rebolt Peregrine, I recall the whole first being pro'd by Leepers on Stars. But I want some practice before taking on a route. My schedule is still pretty much all over the place, but now we are in off season and Ive been getting lots of time off. Also just bought hand drill (just the handle, they were out of bits), and a few pitons that i was going to grind out to make tuning forks.
UPDATE I am compiling a list of useful threads that I have found in my quest for knowledge. I will update this list at the journey goes. Any comments/suggestions are expressly welcome
Basic information from Access Fund that details procedures of various bolt removals:
https://www.accessfund.org/learn/for-advocates/managing-fixed-anchors/best-practices-for-bolt-removal
Concerning Wedgebolts and their special removal needs:
BUT since power tools are not allowed at pinnacles, special hand tools must be implemented to the same effect...
Homemade puller:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/109487927/inexpensive-bolt-extractor
***Note that Greggor suggests further modifications to the device lateer in the thread.
Homemade spinner:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=9a0oBTF4UFs
Instructions for puller:
"here are some instructions on how to make a spinning tool.
-Get a speed wrench off of eBay. You have the choice of 1/2" or 3/8"
socket size, either one will work but 3/8" sockets are a bit cheaper.
Also, you want the shortest overall length you can find. Most come
in 16-18" lengths. Around 12" is best. You can cut it down and put
3/8" flats on the stub to make it as short as possible. If you
can't do that, then just buy the shortest one you can find. Also,
the bearing in the handle might be OK or it might be shot.
-get a universal joint socket. This gives you some play in the setup.
-get a normal 6-point socket to hold the coupler nut. For a 3/8"
coupler nut you need a 9/16" socket. A 6-point socket is preferred
because you are going to have to drill a hole for a set screw in it
and it has more metal than a 12-point.
-3/8" coupler nut. Make sure you get the correct threads for 3/8"
wedge bolts which is coarse threads.
To properly score the cone on the end of the bolt you need to pull
out a bit as you turn the speed wrench. Because of this you need to
secure all the pieces in your chain so they don't just pop out as
you pull. You can do this by drilling holes into each piece while
it is attached in the chain and either use a metal pin or a set
screw.
You also want to come up with some way of putting a stop on the
coupler nut as you screw it onto the bolt. You can either put a
screw near the end of the coupler nut or thread a nut onto the
wedge bolt before you put on the coupler tool and then tighten
the coupler nut and the other nut onto themselves when you have
reached the proper depth.
Make sure you tap the bolt back into the hole before trying to
start to spin it. If it won't spin initially, put a couple of
nuts on the end, tighten them on each other and use a big wrench
to get it to start spinning.
Use an abrasive compound to help score the cone more quickly."
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Sounds like I need to write a How To manual for rebolting. I'll work on it while the weather continues to drown any hopes of climbing at Pinns - and while I rest and rehab my elbow to see if the tendonitis goes away.
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I have updated my original post.
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Here is a partial list of tools you'll need - a starting point at least.
Tools and supplies for rebolting at Pinnacles.
Many of the tools I use for rebolting were made (by me) with an angle grinder.
Hammer (I use the Black Diamond Yosemite hammer)
Drill holder (I prefer the Petzl Rocpec and carry a spare - in case one breaks).
SDS 3/8” x 6” masonry hammer drill bits – I like the Hilti bits but they are harder to find than Bosch
Blow tube or blow bulb. I prefer a Tube (clear, flexible plastic). OD 1/4 “, ID 1/8” x 34 inches with a 24 inch leash. The leash is attached with an office spring clip (remove the handles after attaching it). Careful you don’t short yourself on any of the lengths. My lengths are based on my reach and a comfortable distance between your face/mouth and the rock. I got mine at Home Depot (they sell it by the foot).
Small vise grip pliers (6 inch)
6 inch Ratchet or crescent wrench (I carry both). Some old bolts require using a larger breaker bar and deep-well sockets.
Torque wrench (mine is a click-style from Tekton – about $40).
Chisels (modified and unmodified) three 3/4 x 7 1/8 ($5 each) and 1 3/4 x 7 1/2 ($8). I use the Dasco pro brand from Home Depot. One 3/4 x 7 1/8 has a 1/4 “ slot, one has a 3/8” slot. The 1 3/4 x7 1/2 has a 3/8 inch slot. Carving these slots with an angle grinder takes significant time and patience (and a steady hand). Do a little at a time to keep the tool from getting very hot. I used a bench vise to hold the chisels and made a jig out of wood to help me keep the angle grinder steady and square.
Crow bars (I have an 18 inch and a 24 inch – I usually use the 18 inch). I enlarged the claw openings to 1/4” with an angle grinder.
Tuning forks can be made from Lost Arrow pitons but that is a very costly alternative to the modified chisels I use ($25 versus $5) and the piton steel is quite soft in comparison to the tool steel of the chisels. Periodic filing/sharpening of the tuning fork is needed and eventually it wears out.
3/8” lag screws – I carry 3 lengths – 2 1/2”, 3”, and 3 1/2”
Bolt Bags – I use the heavy duty Runout Customs bag but any bag will do. I have some of Mountain Tools smaller bolt bags – they are handy for organizing and shorter items.
Knee pads – nice to have when you are hanging for hours with no stance.
Patching material – I use Instacrete concrete repair epoxy putty stick
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Get Clint and Bruce to do the replacing....bribe Clint with Mac Donald’s gift cards.
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Procure all the tools you can, make the rest - then load them in your pack with the replacement hardware and chains.
Now add a rope, maybe a rack if the climb requires gear to get to the top, jumars, aiders (or traxions) plus all your regular climbing gear, food, water etc. Don't forget you'll likely need a willing partner - preferably one that is already highly skilled in rebolting. Remember too that most of your time will be spent working and not climbing much. Prepare yourself for repetitive motion injuries that you will likely never recover from. You might want to climb everything you ever dreamed of climbing before you get started.
Good luck - we're all counting on you...
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Here is a small part of what I have written so far:
The rebolting process (general guidelines)
Don’t expect things to go smoothly. Rebolting is like doing home improvement projects. The tear out/removal process can uncover all sorts of problems. No “how to” manual can cover all situations.
Experience is the best teacher. I recommend getting help/advice/instruction from someone highly experienced with the process.
If an apprenticeship is not possible, I strongly recommend getting someone experienced to inspect your work before you get too far along on any projects.
Be prepared to lead the climb on old hardware. Take before and after pictures. I typically replace the anchor first - then rappel the route and replace the lead bolts from the top down. Collect and catalogue all the old hardware. Patch abandoned holes.
Reuse the old hole/location if possible. If it is not possible to reuse the old hole, put the new bolt as close as you can to the old bolt but at least 1 bolt length away (2 bolt lengths is better in Pinnacles rock). If you must relocate a bolt, choose the best rock and consider the stance for clipping. Under no circumstances should you relocate a bolt into a lodestone. If the old bolt is in a lodestone, it is best to remove and patch – then place the new bolt in nearby matrix.
Use a torque wrench to achieve the desired tightness and avoid overtightening. If a torque wrench is not available, the Powers sleeve bolt (the standard replacement bolt at Pinnacles is 3/8” x 3 1/2" sleeve bolt) has a paper-thin, plastic washer under the bolt head that squishes out as you tighten the bolt. When the washer squishes out, the bolt is at or near torque. The bolt head should be flush with the supplied metal washer/hanger surface. Carry an extra hanger and use it to check the rock surface before placing the replacement bolt. It is very difficult to correct a bad surface after pounding in a sleeve bolt.
Removing Old Bolts
Learn to identify bolts before attempting to remove them. Each removal process is different.
Sometimes it is impossible to tell what type of bolt it is prior to removal – e.g. a stud-type bolt with threads exposed and a nut to fasten the hanger could be a compression/split shaft, a set bolt or a wedge.
Star Dryvins
Use a chisel with a 3/8” slot to get things started. Drive the chisel under the hanger, taking care to align the slot with the bolt sleeve. The whole assembly should lift slightly from the hole. Use the chisel or a tuning fork to flatten the flanges on the sleeves (pound them flat against the hanger). The nail should be sticking up slightly after the flanges are flattened. Take care not to damage/mutilate/shear the flanges because if they break off, the sleeves will be extremely difficult to remove. If the flanges are old, rusty and brittle – be as delicate as possible - and prepare yourself for a fight if they shear off.
Use the chisel with 1/4” slot or tuning fork to get the nail popped up enough to get under it with the crowbar. Be careful not to catch the flange edges as the chisel or tuning fork is driven under the nail head. Once the nail head is popped up far enough, use the crowbar to remove the nail. Smoothly pulling/applying force to the crowbar is best but pulsing the crowbar can also achieve the desired result (careful! – it can also pop the nail head off). If the nail is coming out correctly, it will make a creaking sound as it is extracted (music to the rebolter’s ears). Once the nail is out, use the chisel with a 3/8” slot to ease the sleeves and the hanger up and out of the hole. Clip an extended alpine draw to the hanger as the assembly is eased from the hole, to keep from dropping the old parts. If the lower, lead sleeve doesn’t come out with the upper/main sleeves (sometimes it does), it will be necessary to remove it. Use a 3/8” lag screw. Choose the appropriate length and screw the lag screw into the hole until it bottoms out. Use the crowbar to ease the lag screw and the lead sleeve out of the hole. Use vise grip pliers to remove the lead sleeve from the lag screw so it is ready to use again.
Drill the hole to depth, resurface if necessary and place the new/replacement bolt. Torque the bolt to spec.
In the event that the flanges on the upper sleeves break off, the sleeves can usually be extracted by clamping the vise grips upside-down on each sleeve (one at a time) and then using the rounded top of the vise grips against the rock as a lever to ease each sleeve out. Wiggling and twisting to pull straight out typically doesn't work and results in the sleeve tearing again (then it's game over).
If the head of the nail breaks off, it is virtually impossible to remove the nail. The situation can usually be resolved by pounding the various metal pieces into the hole (nail and sleeves) and topping it with epoxy patch material.
Shearing of the flanges and the nail head breaking off are the two main problems that occur with star dryvin removal.
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What about a Bosch? Makes the job much faster.
Oh wait Is this a pinnacles rebooting thread?
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Oh wait Is this a pinnacles rebooting thread?
Something clearly needs rebooting :lol:
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Here's a pic of some tools
Top row left to right
Lag screws and Tuning fork, scrap bolts/scrap hanger and pick tools for removing 5 piece bolts (good luck if they aren't recently placed - I usually only use the 5 pc removal stuff if something goes wrong with the replacement)
Bottom row left to right
Torque wrench (click-style), small ratchet, small vise grips, chisel and custom-made slotted chisels
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4879/45380386225_5a064490ca_z.jpg)
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just swing it
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just swing it
It or them?
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depends on the time of day
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And dont forget to bring the OCD
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The announcement at the PCAD regarding rebolting was to call 1-800-JohnCook.
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And don't forget to bring the OCD.
I corrected your comment by adding an apostrophe to the word "don't" and adding a period at the end of your sentence. :P ::)
More critically, I recognize the humor behind your words. That route name still cracks me up, and I can't believe you kept its origin from the two "OCDers" on this site for two years!
I also recognize and am grateful for another truth: J.C. and Clint and Bruce, by far the most prolific bolt-replacers at Pinns, bring a certain "OCD" to their work and we're all better off for it. After all, other words and phrases that mean the same as "OCD" in this context include "care," "workmanship," and "pride in quality." Thanks gentlemen for all the hard effort.
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Hey Clink, what about the Retro-bolting kit?
What do you think?
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Check out this old double-nutted set-bolt (1/4 inch x 2 3/4)
From the ground - all I could see (with binocs) were the 2 jam nuts - so it looked like a 3/8 inch stud.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4839/32474610398_a2071c0ba2_z.jpg)
When I tried to loosen the upper nut, I thought it was moving until I realized (after a couple turns) - the whole thing was turning (with my tiny 4 inch wrench)
I placed my fingers on the homemade aluminum hanger and slid the entire, barely engaged assembly out in one piece - just as you see it. This thing gives me the willies! What's really scary is the rock it was in was excellent. :yikes: :frown2:
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What route?
And is there a replacement for it yet? I ask because it sounds like it pulled out while you were on a climbing trip, not out re-bolting.
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What route?
And is there a replacement for it yet? I ask because it sounds like it pulled out while you were on a climbing trip, not out re-bolting.
Sling Blade 5.9R :nonod: :frown2:
Ain't been on no climbin' trips...mmm...hmmm :lol:
I reckon it's been replaced...mmm hmmm :crazy: :arf:
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Sling Blade 5.9R :nonod: :frown2:
Ain't been on no climbin' trips...mmm...hmmm :lol:
I reckon it's been replaced...mmm hmmm :crazy: :arf:
Oh, I guess I just assumed that it was in Pinnacles.
Alabama Hills?
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Of course it's Pinnacles.
Just messin' with ya brudda :yesnod: :lol:
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Where is Sling Blade located? Never heard of it.
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Hey Clink, what about the Retro-bolting kit?
What do you think?
Investing in a battery powered jackhammer.
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Where is Sling Blade located? Never heard of it.
Only the rating is correct. The name has been changed to protect the innocent. :ihih:
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Investing in a battery powered jackhammer.
Where you been man? Check yer phone lately?
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Favorite quotes as long as we are thread jackin'
"Just how retarded are you?"
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4866/45435103865_1e8e54ac6b_z.jpg)
"It ain't got no gas in it...mmm hmmm"
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He lives!!!
We thought them Condors got him....
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I calls it kaiser blade 5.9. Mmm hmmm