MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: T O Double D on March 08, 2019, 02:42:56 AM
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I called the park service and the person I spoke with didn’t seem to know, but said rain doesn’t affect the rock. I’ve heard conflicting opinions on mountain project as well. So what say the all mighty Masters of Mud? Does rain weaken the already fragile Pinnacles Rock? If so how long to wait before climbing?
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Opinions vary.
I like to wait a couple days depending on temps and sun conditions. Not much drying with these cool temps unless the route is in direct sun. Some people climb the rock when it is wet and freezing cold. That is the short answer.
A longer answer is available if you'd like :ihih:
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The rain definitely affects the rock. Some of this is route dependent since the quality of the rock at the Pinnacles is variable. Easier routes with bigger holds or that are lower angle are less affected. But, hard routes with small holds or any route with delicate holds are a concern.
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Is your question more related to durability / breaking? Like more of a sandstone type question? Meaning DON'T climb sandstone (or in this case Pinns rock) after it rains because it is likely to break?
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When there has been so much rain..many of the chutes are creeks.
So I would say drainage is the main issue with the water draining even a few days after rains like we have had.
That said, on hard routes, stay off until there dry, because who wants to be that guy that breaks a hold.
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Is your question more related to durability / breaking? Like more of a sandstone type question? Meaning DON'T climb sandstone (or in this case Pinns rock) after it rains because it is likely to break?
Yes I’ve been wondering if rain weakens the rock and if we should stay off it. My own obersvations lead me to believe routes on the harder rock at Pinnacles aren’t affected, but that routes with a tendency towards breakage get weaker.
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If you see dry patches of asphalt on the roads, you're good to climb.
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If you see dry patches of asphalt on the roads, you're good to climb.
There is no simple answer (unless you are a Meanderthal). :yesnod: :biggrin: :lol:
The question is very route and area dependent. If you have specific routes or areas in mind it would help narrow the scope.
Fragility is related to the hardness of the matrix (highly variable) and how deeply embedded the cobbles are (if the holds are cobbles).
Much of the rock is already fragile and the porous nature of the matrix adds another dimension of weakness when it is saturated. Water is the major weathering factor at Pinnacles (chemical disintegration). Ironically, percolating water can also redistribute the minerals in the rock and eventually cause it to get harder. :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
In general, if you're climbing something relatively clean that gets some sun, is well protected and on good rock, I'd say okay.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4393/37075748952_897a37788d_z.jpg)
If you've got your eye on something with a serious adventure factor and virtually no pro (like this), I'd say wait a few months.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4616/39635912781_8e119d24bd_z.jpg)
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Say does pee weaken the rock??
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Say does pee weaken the rock??
Yes. :puke:
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Knew it!!
That’s why mr muds routes are so hard, he must be pissing on his routes.
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So easy, a Meanderthal could do it.
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Do a new FA route then if it breaks no can cry about it. It was meant to come off.
In fact all FAs should only be done in the rain to make sure you are only left with ‘mother’ stone.
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Do a new FA route then if it breaks no can cry about it. It was meant to come off.
In fact all FAs should only be done in the rain to make sure you are only left with ‘mother’ stone.
I understand now why you were permanently banned :yesnod: :lol: :out: :prrr:
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Just echoing other folks in their assessment of climbing after rain at Pinnacles - and yes, I work at the park and climb!
I usually feel like areas that get hit by a lot of sun on higher temp days, and that don't have water chutes / mossy rock, are fine to climb on within a couple days after the rain. For example, I regularly climb at Discovery Wall and Monolith within a couple days of rain events (and plan to do so tomorrow). Those areas benefit from steep, east facing walls, too - they are hit by a lot of sun, and a lot of our rain pushes in from the west, so those walls are more protected from getting really soaked.
I think JC's note about mossy walls is important, and any routes with a lot of lichen-covered rock can be quite slick for days after the rain. There were a couple of fools climbing at Lava Falls on Balconies last week, and I don't know what they were thinking - not only is the area part of the Balconies raptor closure, but those water chutes are running with water and would be dangerous to climb right now.
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Wasn't me.
:)
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May have been Mud doing part of his annual bathing ritual. Long leader fall through thick wet moss for deep cleansing and skin exfoliation.
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wasn't me, I was busy cleaning the toilets.
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Wet lodestones= :yikes:
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Not me, I am in Florida.
Mungie???
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JC and Gavin your comments are inline with my observations as well. Each piece of rock seems different. Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Pinnacles rock freaks me out and I’m always careful there. I was at C&M the other day and had a rock crack in half. It was wet inside, even though it had been a few days since rain. Other areas seem bullet proof.
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wasn't me on Balconies. I only climb 5.8+.
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Well Mungie the 2nd litch is now 5.8+ there is hope for you and I.
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I concur with Gavin. Texture, loose flakes, lichen - a combination of factors make waiting for a dry couple of weeks the best choice. That said, I've climbed in the wet and lived to tell Clink stories about it. He's easily amused.
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He's easily amused.
So true.
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And full from a berry-cheese danish.
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It is snowing again. Fresh covering this morning. Looks like we get a break after this.
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An unrelated note: I saw a Bald Eagle driving into work yesterday. Was doing tight circles toward the ground until it disappeared into the trees. I guess it found breakfast.
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An unrelated note: I saw a Bald Eagle driving into work yesterday.
Is it legal for them to drive in your state???!
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I would avoid looser climbs... but definitelt never felt weird or bad about climbing the monolith after rain, specially the terranian tango side. the thing is a lead bullet IMHO.
water gets in, im sure, in some places. stick to solid rock formations if you know which those are and Im sure uou will be fine. ive never broke a hold on a day after rain
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Case in point is Gorillas in the Moss....had some small holds that broke possibly due to climbing on the route when it was not dry. I could be wrong.
But then again...who want's to be THAT guy who breaks a hold....not me.
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I agree with Gavin and F4. Just wait a couple of days. Right now with the amount of rain we've been getting the ground is saturated with water. Formations in lower areas without sun and strong winds will take longer to dry out.
If we were in a drought year and there was a small shower it would be a different story.
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Is it legal for them to drive in your state???!
With open containers and concealed weapons, no less.
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It's a great question to be talked about!
Noal brings up a great point....in dry years, pff that rock would dry out fast.
Wet years like this, ugh....just book a ticket to Red Rocks and enjoy some long climbs and get in shape for when it drys out.
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Is it legal for them to drive in your state???!
Up here the only rule is, do you fit behind the wheel.
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I would avoid looser climbers...
me too
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Is it legal for them to drive in your state???!
I showed Vicki this comment and asked if I was being fair and whether the same idea had crossed her mind.
"Yes, but I make allowances for the people I really like."
Leaving me wondering: how the hell does Mr Mud rate?
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Thanks, this was a day in need of a good laugh.
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Leaving me wondering: how the hell does Mr Mud rate?
Low expectations....
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Is it legal for them to drive in your state???!
Only if they're bringing berry-cheese Danish to older climbers, mildly loose.
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ive never broke a hold on a day after rain
jinx :yesnod: :biggrin: :lol:
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Low expectations....
The secret to happiness....
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I was at C&M the other day and had a rock crack in half. It was wet inside, even though it had been a few days since rain.
What route had the rock crack in half?
Did you get some good climbing in?
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What route had the rock crack in half?
Did you get some good climbing in?
I got Atomized that day. I was hoping to check out some of your routes, but he had other ideas. We traversed from North to south. Started on Solotero Pina, then despite there being bolts 15’ to the right, we climbed a super choss chimney (where I cracked the rock, and had a large section behind my back crumble...). We avoided bolts until getting to the south formation. To get on top we climbed a 5.7 I think. He did find a bomber placement for the random #2 he accidentally brought along... so yeah, it was an interesting day. Not what I was expecting, but interesting.
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I got Atomized that day. I was hoping to check out some of your routes, then despite there being bolts 15’ to the right, we climbed a super choss chimney (where I cracked the rock, and had a large section behind my back crumble...). We avoided bolts until getting to the south formation. To get on top we climbed a 5.7 I think. He did find a bomber placement for the random #2 he accidentally brought along... so yeah, it was an interesting day. Not what I was expecting, but interesting.
Sounds like an adventure. Those bolts 15 feet right of the chimney are for Squeaky Clean Mud - one of several really fun routes in that corridor. No one wanted to climb that ugly chimney. Not surprised there was loose stuff.
There are a couple nice 5.7's in that last corridor - There were gear placements on both that we used during the FA's for security while drilling. The 5.5 at the top of the corridor turned out really nice too - surprised Adam didn't free solo that.
Are you coming to the MoM weekend?
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I’ll definitely get back there one day... my climbing partners are all way better than me, so they usually end up going for harder areas, but those routes seem right up my alley.
We debated soloing, but since it’s Pinnacles Rock and there being bolts it seemed like a truly ridiculous idea.
I was supposed to be in Red Rock that weekend, but my plans fell through. MoM sounds rad, I’ll talk with the lady and likely go.
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I’ll definitely get back there one day... my climbing partners are all way better than me, so they usually end up going for harder areas, but those routes seem right up my alley.
I was supposed to be in Red Rock that weekend, but my plans fell through. MoM sounds rad, I’ll talk with the lady and likely go.
Yes - come climb with us. The focus will be having fun!
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So, why not restart a thread from 4 years ago? Anyway...since it's supposed to be dry this week and it's not listed specifically that I saw here, should spots like the Citadel and Flumes be OK this coming weekend?
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After looking at the National Weather Service forecast, I suspect they will be fine. Enough dry days will have passed before this weekend that even the north-facing stuff (both formations you named face north or close to it) should be OK. Maybe damp in places, but mostly Ok.
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After looking at the National Weather Service forecast, I suspect they will be fine. Enough dry days will have passed before this weekend that even the north-facing stuff (both formations you named face north or close to it) should be OK. Maybe damp in places, but mostly Ok.
Is the issue just wet spots on the routes making it slick or is it breaking holds? Wet spots just puts me in danger and I can evaluate that...breaking holds is just inconsiderate and messes up the stuff for everyone.
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Well stated, John.
I meant both. And I might be wrong - temps are pretty cold still which slows the drying process. But if I had stuff I wanted to try in either place, I'd be comfortable on both issues trying it this weekend.
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Another issue are routes in the shade or ones that don’t get much shade.
But as Brad said, seeping water will be the main issue.
It should be nice
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It's been cold in KC, not above 52 today, and it will freeze for the next several nights. I suspect Flumes won't be welcoming this weekend. Sunshine and moderate climbs may be best until we've had a dry week or two.
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If you climb on delicate routes right after a rain, they will become more delicate..
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If you climb on delicate routes right after a rain, they will become more delicate..
Amen. We got .2" in KC. early this morning. I haven't checked Pinnacles yet.
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If the rock has a high moisture content and the temp is below freezing, the holds are then frozen in place.
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From here in the park - it's at or below freezing overnight for the next few days, with highs forecast for the low 50s. East-facing walls are drying out but still have a fair bit of wet spots. North-facing walls are more wet and the blue-gray lichen sections are damp / slick.
Everything is covered with frost outside my house in Bear Gulch.
Personally, I would opt for climbing in the sun this weekend, and no need to start early in the morning!
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Thanks for the update Gavin!
Yes, the gym has been cold lately. The only plus is when the sun hits you on the upper wall.
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Tagging into this discussion, it looks like some rain and maybe snow Friday, and I have the weekend off. I was looking at Crud & Mud as well as possibly Marmot and have been touchy pulling the trigger with the forecast. Thoughts? Maybe Gavin knows best here.
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In Gavin We Trust
You nailed it!
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Climb while you can. In the sun, before it rains, during and after the rain.
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Since Gandalf is taken, can we call him the Sage of Pinnacles?
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Gandalf did appear with his staff and was kind enough to be our ropegun and guide.
Being ever so curious, like you Brad, I thought of being an Elven maid with mischievous eyes. To do so one can meditate into a vision of the entity you wish to become and ask permission to assume it’s character. All was going quite well with my conceptualization, she beckoned me to herself. Her eyes, deep enchanted pools, drawing me closer, further in. Then in Noal’s voice, she says ‘Sorry buddy, already taken’.
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Tagging into this discussion, it looks like some rain and maybe snow Friday, and I have the weekend off. I was looking at Crud & Mud as well as possibly Marmot and have been touchy pulling the trigger with the forecast. Thoughts? Maybe Gavin knows best here.
Crud and Mud and Marmot are good for shade/hot days. Crud and Mud has way better protected routes (imo) and an easy way to get to a variety of anchors that Marmot does not (if you don't want to lead). It is also an easier (more straightforward) approach. Most of the anchors are not conducive to setting topropes - I'd recommend just belaying from the top and rap a single strand to switch out. You'll pass right by Pioneer Pinnacle on the way up there. It has fun climbs on it too (except Cha-Sam) and easy ways to the top.
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Being ever so curious, like you Brad, I thought of being an Elven maid with mischievous eyes. To do so one can meditate into a vision of the entity you wish to become and ask permission to assume it’s character. All was going quite well with my conceptualization, she beckoned me to herself. Her eyes, deep enchanted pools, drawing me closer, further in. Then in Noal’s voice, she says ‘Sorry buddy, already taken’.
^^^
Holy shit, straight out of the late 1960s!
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I have found that when it is really cold and it rains/snows formations that are higher in elevation stay wet especially if there is grass or dirt on top that can retain water. Everything freezes and does not start to thaw until mid morning and then it starts to seep.
This weekend if I had to choose between the two I would go with Crud and Mud. With some wind it might be dry enough to climb. Most all of the routes there are moderates with a lot of solid large lodestones so soggy slimy matrix does not figure into the equation.
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^^^
Well put.
Pioneer is all bare rock on top. One side is full sun in the morning. I'd recommend Prairie Falcon followed by Imprint.
Just Chute Me and the East Side get full sun. Pretty much everything else is shade or partial shade. Bottom's Up should have some sun and Ashes the Mud and I across from Bottoms Up is a must do. If they are dry - same for Mud Brother** and Mud Diamond***
Excerpt from Brad's correction #35
A proper description of the route East Side should read: East Side 5.2 R The approach to this route is the same as for the route Just Chute Me. Walk around the south/uphill end of Crud and Mud to a brush free, flat area at the base of the south summit’s east side (well below three short, shallow chutes). Traverse up and right over a rib of rock, past shrubs to a small grassy area at the base of a steep but easy water chute that is 10 feet left of a big left-facing corner. Climb this chute 20 feet to a slabby area below a headwall. Move right below the headwall 15 feet to a bolt at the base of a shoulder of rock (the bolt can be used to make a midway belay to avoid rope drag). Move around to the right (northwest) 15 feet to another bolt before continuing past large knobs rightward into a water chute. Climb the chute 25 feet to a large flat area which is below the true summit of Crud and Mud (knobs can be slung in the chute). A two bolt anchor allows a belay here, after which an easy scramble can be made to the true summit. A 50 foot rappel from the bolts leads to the base of the climb.
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We just audibled and called the trip off, sadly. Still, looking to get back to the park sooner rather than later.
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I'm hoping Friday doesn't see too much rain. I really want to come down on Saturday; it's legitimately the only Saturday I can come down between now and at least August.
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It's not looking good.
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I'm hoping Friday doesn't see too much rain. I really want to come down on Saturday; it's legitimately the only Saturday I can come down between now and at least August.
John, it looks like you mis-spelled April?
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There is always the arch at the base of Machete. A little campfire of unused tp and crumpled notes from Mountain Project adds ambiance.
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John, it looks like you mis-spelled April?
Nope. August. I deploy for ~4 months starting in early April. So, August when, of course, the park is a furnace. Meaning, realistically, late-September or October. There might be a few weekdays I could make it down in March but I can't really plan those out, so how many people are really able to climb when I'm posting on Facebook or Mountain Project at 7pm saying "Hey, who wants to climb Pinnacles tomorrow? I'll pick you up at 5am."
Also, in a hilarious comedy of things, my son wants to go to Yosemite for his birthday. He'll likely want to climb. However, since I don't climb trad and he probably can't climb harder than like 5.3 outdoors, my first climbing in Yosemite, the place with 3,000 feet tall walls, is going to be bouldering.
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How much rain/snow did the park get today? We got less than expected in the Bay today, or at least it went on for less time than expected.
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John, the Useful Information sticky thread includes a link to the National Weather Service for Pinnacles weather. Look on this page, currently the third thread down:
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?board=1.0
According to this (look at 3 day history), the Park got 1.02 inches of rain in the last 24 hours. That's pretty wet.
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John, the Useful Information sticky thread includes a link to the National Weather Service for Pinnacles weather. Look on this page, currently the third thread down:
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?board=1.0
According to this (look at 3 day history), the Park got 1.02 inches of rain in the last 24 hours. That's pretty wet.
You know, I had a job from 2014 to 2018 that required me to have the NWS site up all the time. In 4 years of looking at that NWS site, legitimately looked at it at least 15,000 times, and I didn't realize until right now that there's a 3 day history link on that page. In fact, I'd be reasonably wealthy if I'd gotten paid for every time I've said "why is there no place to look up weather history?" I've probably looked at that exact NWS page for Pinnacles 25 times in the last 2-3 days, never saw the 3 day history link. Always learning new things...
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Wow, glad I could help. Usually J.C. gets to posting helpful tidbits like that before anyone else.
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John, the Useful Information sticky thread includes a link to the National Weather Service for Pinnacles weather. Look on this page, currently the third thread down:
http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?board=1.0
According to this (look at 3 day history), the Park got 1.02 inches of rain in the last 24 hours. That's pretty wet.
Does anyone know where the weather station is? I was on top of the Western Front at 1:00 on Tuesday and the wind felt like a lot more than 14 mph there.
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It snowed on the Chalone Peaks last night, down past the 2,000' level on the SW slopes.
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P.S. Those of you who are inclined, bring your axes.
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Does anyone know where the weather station is? I was on top of the Western Front at 1:00 on Tuesday and the wind felt like a lot more than 14 mph there.
Weather conditions for:
PINNACLES, CA (RAWS - MTR)
Elev: 1322 ft; Lat/Lon: 36.470750/-121.147280
^^ This is from the 3 day history page, it's in red text between the colored graph at the top and the charted data at the bottom. I can't be 100% sure but that location does correlate with a mountain top that Google Maps shows to have some gear on the summit.
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Does anyone know where the weather station is? I was on top of the Western Front at 1:00 on Tuesday and the wind felt like a lot more than 14 mph there.
It's over on the east side. If you go to the mesowest page and then find station information (under More Info) it brings up a little map with a locator (blue dot). I coordinated the locations between that map and Google Earth and put some pins and labels on the points in question. It's not that far as the crow flies but there are lots of ridges and valleys between the two and Soledad has winds generated from prevailing westerlies dropping over the Sierra de Salinas and across the Salinas Valley.
Topography, geography and meteorology. I still love this shit.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8CJt4fuA9BAywAW1_d1N8pdKiIp2bZDnRwx3i4WoySvoKBmWNeEGfn0GwD8duvLvR2z_qxOqfnDxci1m9OvHulsmVL3VQ9UM_hmcu9aT5icO1Dk8CkcZx0VOyCft8Ql7Vod9B4fN0_GKf7hk_qU-g-l=w1333-h608-s-no?authuser=0)
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Weather conditions for:
PINNACLES, CA (RAWS - MTR)
Elev: 1322 ft; Lat/Lon: 36.470750/-121.147280
^^ This is from the 3 day history page, it's in red text between the colored graph at the top and the charted data at the bottom. I can't be 100% sure but that location does correlate with a mountain top that Google Maps shows to have some gear on the summit.
For some reason they give the lat/long coordinates as decimals instead of degrees, minutes and seconds. Coordinating the maps using features put my pin for the station at 36 28 12.52 and 121 08 52.73
EDIT; My pin for the station is slightly off. I figured out how to zoom in further on the mesowest map and I did confirm there is a station there (I can see the equipment). They show the coordinates as 36°28'14.7"N 121°08'50.2"W
derived from 36.470750, -121.147280
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Thanks. I figured it was probably on the more sheltered side of the park. We were trying to beat the wind to Eye Candy or hoping the alcove would be sheltered enough. We did not and it was not; the wind ripped straight down it from above. Still had a ball galavanting around an area I hadn't visited before.
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Sorry for not responding earlier. It has continued to be wet in the park for sure, and more on the way today and tomorrow. The creek drainages have recharged some and are flowing pretty well again. Daily high temps are still low (high 40s, then 50s later in the week), so I imagine cliffs will stay pretty wet for awhile.
As JC detailed, the main Pinnacles weather station is on the east side of the park, after the campground turnoff and before the road junction for Bear Gulch / Old Pinnacles trailhead. It is just before a fire road gate along the paved park road.
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Thanks. I figured it was probably on the more sheltered side of the park. We were trying to beat the wind to Eye Candy or hoping the alcove would be sheltered enough. We did not and it was not; the wind ripped straight down it from above. Still had a ball galavanting around an area I hadn't visited before.
Glad you got up there to check it out.
Did you climb anything?
You got me curious about the wind that day. The weather was changing when we got up Tuesday and I could tell a front was definitely moving in. We had already been in the park for 3 days of great weather - so we packed up and left.
According to the gauge it was gusting to 27 at 1:37 and two hours later the gusts were registering 50! :yikes:
13:37 14 27
14:37 19 30
15:37 21 50
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Glad you got up there to check it out.
Did you climb anything?
We did not. I botched the approach, so we lost a half hour or so there. Then as soon as we cleared the ridge by Numbskull Needle we were able to see the front moving in over the next ridge to the west. It smacked us full on literally just in the last 100' of the approach. The wind gusting down the alcove was beating on the little tree at the base of Chubby Rain so hard we were watching it actively being uprooted. Didn't stick around long enough to see if it finished the job. But just for giggles we summited the Western Front in full storm conditions. The wind was strong and steady enough it was able to support me doing a Michael Jackson lean on it, and almost pushed me ass over teakettle more than once.
It definitely justified our gametime decision to NOT get on Old Original.