MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: briham89 on February 12, 2020, 10:01:47 AM
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What is your technique / hammer pattern for hand drilling? Do you have one or do you just randomly smack the thing?
Once the hole is established I typically turn the drill holder in quarter turns, using the empty rubber hole (where the drill bit lives when not installed) as a guide. Meaning the hole in the drill holder starts at the 12 o'clock position, I hit it 3 - 6 times, then the 3 o'clock position hit 3 -6 times...and so on at 6 o'clock, 9-o'clock and then back to 12 o'clock. The 3-6 times usually varies based on binding and how tired I am.
Does anyone else do anything like this, or do you just whack away and turn?
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What is your technique / hammer pattern for hand drilling? Do you have one or do you just randomly smack the thing?
Once the hole is established I typically turn the drill holder in quarter turns, using the empty rubber hole (where the drill bit lives when not installed) as a guide. Meaning the hole in the drill holder starts at the 12 o'clock position, I hit it 3 - 6 times, then the 3 o'clock position hit 3 -6 times...and so on at 6 o'clock, 9-o'clock and then back to 12 o'clock. The 3-6 times usually varies based on binding and how tired I am.
Does anyone else do anything like this, or do you just whack away and turn?
Good topic. Wack and turn, I need more strategy clearly. My favorite though is pulling the trigger and let the 18v do the work. Then again this IS a Pinns thread so:-|
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I turn as I hit, moving from wrist flexion to extension.
I tend to choke up on the hammer to reduce fatigue and focus on square hits rather than how hard I hit.
I tend to hit a bit harder as the hole gets deeper but try to let the tool do the work.
Hitting harder past a certain level gains very little and just uses more of your energy.
I sometimes find that hitting too hard causes chipping in the hole and a lot of binding.
Of course that can happen too if the rock is composed of micro chunks.
I start the hole slowly with small taps and grinding by turning back and forth (with and without tapping) to get the hole started, prevent cratering and keep the surface nice. That usually works well but things can go sideways if the rock is weird.
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By the way - What's the big idea breaking up the screenshot gold streak? :lol:
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I also like the X-tipped bit for starting holes and a regular bit once it's well established.
I like the Hilti bits better than any bit I've tested.
I carry two drill holders because I have had the spring break on my Petzl Rocpecs.
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clink drills with a 2/4 time signature.
When he gets going there is no pause. The next thing you hear is him pounding in the bolt.
Comparing your drilling to his will make you feel like a beginning guitar player trying to jam with Al Dimeola.
His hammer-hit efficiency is off the charts and he doesn't hit hard.
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I tag up Mr Baby Bulldog and turn it loose!!!
Oh wait, wrong area.
I prefer to bring a Jim along. Hand rope and bolts....only issue is he tends to not stop often as us mortals would prefer.
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All that being said - I've seen the beat you into submission method work too :lol:
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By the way - What's the big idea breaking up the screenshot gold streak?
That was 60% of my reason for starting this thread...that thread is meh.
Hitting harder past a certain level gains very little and just uses more of your energy
I've always wondered what an actual chart would look like for this, where on one axis is the power of the hit and the other is rock removed or hole progress.
Sometimes hitting hard seems to get the job done, and other times it seems to do nothing. I have a hard time quantifying this and coming up with a "standard" power to use.
I turn as I hit, moving from wrist flexion to extension.
Meaning you turn with every hit? Are you turning during the hit or after?
My favorite though is pulling the trigger and let the 18v do the work
Mine too....but there is some satisfaction in doing it the "hard way".
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Paging Mungie!!!!
He has a video of the Master Brutus hand drilling.
He used a rapid strike and turning rythem.
Maybe Mungie still has the video and can share.
No Neul Young
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Did you mean Neil Young? Dont worry he has nothing to do with drilling holes in rocks.
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Meaning you turn with every hit? Are you turning during the hit or after?
Yes - During the hit - simulating a hammer drill.
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In my early days of drilling the bits sucked, always binding, at times breaking. I turned less and beat more on the bit. Getting on harder stance drilling with Waldo, drove a more efficient fear enhanced method, choking up on the handle more as go over and balance became an issue.
I need to pay more attention but I think I hit 10-12 points per rotation, with 3 grip changes.
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Well that JIM guy has a sweet system....
->Shorty drill/bit/holder for starting holes.
->Long blow tube.
->Long socket driver, like ''12
He can drill with either hand.
Me, I just whack and turn.
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I think I hit 10-12 points per rotation, with 3 grip changes
So that's 10 - 12 hammer hits per drill making a full 360 degree rotation?
Also what do you mean by grip changes? On the hammer or on the drill bit holder?
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In my early days of drilling the bits sucked, always binding, at times breaking. I turned less and beat more on the bit. Getting on harder stance drilling with Waldo, drove a more efficient fear enhanced method, choking up on the handle more as go over and balance became an issue.
I need to pay more attention but I think I hit 10-12 points per rotation, with 3 grip changes.
What the heck is go over?
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So that's 10 - 12 hammer hits per drill making a full 360 degree rotation?
Also what do you mean by grip changes? On the hammer or on the drill bit holder?
He does 12 hits.
He lets go of the grip (on the holder) and repositions his hand/wrist for the next 120 degrees of rotation, once the drill is in far enough to stay in the hole.
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Interesting reading about folks' thoughts on drilling technique, and thinking about how my own technique has developed over time. I feel my speed with drilling holes has improved and become more efficient over time, but I'm sure I will never be even close to the speed with which Jim or clink are able to blast through new holes.
I don't really pay attention to the number of hammer hits per wrist rotation, to be honest. I do prefer X-tipped bits - for me they make it easier to start holes and very rarely bind. Over time I have shifted to faster and quicker hammer hits, focusing on precision rather than power, working from the wrist more efficiently. Sometimes I choke the drill holder strongly, but hold it more loosely at other times, depending on how the rock seems to be responding to pressure. Sometimes a bit of bounce can help to more quickly chip away in the hole interior.
I feel like frequent use of the blow tube helps a lot too, to clear out rock dust otherwise gumming up progress in the drill hole.
I try to do a lot of surfacing work before committing to a hole placement to increase the likelihood that the subsequent drilling work is worth the effort.
Otherwise... I feel like just finding good stances, and especially aided stances with hooks, has been significant in providing me with options for pushing up harder and more vertical projects. Better technique with and awareness of the rock for hook placements has opened up a lot of options that I wouldn't otherwise be able to even consider.
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He lets go of the grip (on the holder) and repositions his hand/wrist for the next 120 degrees of rotation, once the drill is in far enough to stay in the hole.
Interesting. That would make for three grip changes per rotation where as I am doing four. And is it 10-12 hits per 120 degree rotation, or 10-12 hits per 360 rotation? (which would be 3-4 hits per 120 degree grip rotation)
I feel like frequent use of the blow tube helps a lot too, to clear out rock dust otherwise gumming up progress in the drill hole.
This has helped me quite a bit. It seems if you don't do it, progress really slows.
and especially aided stances with hooks, has been significant in providing me with options for pushing up harder and more vertical projects
I'm clearly a believer here! ;D :yesnod:
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Now that you have asked, I will document the process rather than guess, then get back to you.
If you let the bit bounce a little, it can puff out some of the dust. ml Many holes I blow out only the once at 3/4 depth.
Depends on the flute depth also.
JC, go over. Now you and I still the same, pretty much. With all the replacement work you have done, the Park should be handing out JC bobbleheads.
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If you let the bit bounce a little, it can puff out some of the dust. ml Many holes I blow out only the once at 3/4 depth.
I do the same. The flutes on a drill bit are designed to draw material out. If you drill past where the flutes end this will become more obvious because it gets harder to drill when the dust cannot get out.
Amazing how much you guys are into drilling holes. I get enough of that at work everyday. For me placing bolts on routes is kind of like a necessary evil. Not very fascinating but hey to each his own....
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JC, go over.
I did today while doing battle with a hamster.
the Park should be handing out JC bobbleheads.
:lol:
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For me placing bolts on routes is kind of like a necessary evil.
Yes, but crack climbing is only so interesting. (I may have to quote myself on this one.)
The rock's varying consistency at Pinns makes for a more interesting climbing and bolting experience. Is this comparable to snow or ice climbing in any way?
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Yes, but crack climbing is only so interesting. (I may have to quote myself on this one.)
The rock's varying consistency at Pinns makes for a more interesting climbing and bolting experience. Is this comparable to snow or ice climbing in any way?
Geez. Mind wander much? :out: :prrr:
JC, go over.
I did today while doing battle with a hamster.
Not only did I go over - I went upside down - ended up dangling in Happy Baby yoga pose :yikes: :smilewinkgrin: :crazy:
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Geez. Mind wander much? :out: :prrr:
Yin yank, yep
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I did today while doing battle with a hamster.
You trying 5.11s now? (Wouldn't surprise me, you're climbing very well these days.)
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You trying 5.11s now? (Wouldn't surprise me, you're climbing very well these days.)
Negatory.
Leader Fall on Battle Hamster.
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Negatory.
Leader Fall on Battle Hamster.
Damn, falling on gear at Pinnacles! Very proud, although, I suspect, unintended. Balls to the wall, dude (assuming that they're still intact).
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I went upside down
Whoa. :yikes:
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Yeah, glad to hear you made it through safely, JC. i've had two inverted falls at Pinnacles - on Feed The Beast and White Punks On Rope - and both experiences were very unnerving.
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JC, get a chest harness, you have no proper hips for inverted fall harness tethering.
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Amazing how much you guys are into drilling holes.
You have it backwards....drilling holes is shitty. So learning if there are better / more efficient ways to do it is beneficial.
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I think in general you are overthinking things. The reason that some people like Clink can drill holes so quickly is because he has spent years in his profession swinging a hammer. He is extremely accurate in transferring energy from the hammer to the drillbit.
It also helps to be able to swing a hammer for long periods without resting which is achieved through mileage. Meh threads to replace meh threads is well....meh.
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Well Mr Jim has a few other tricks.
I can’t say as it would spoil the fun.
I still prefer Mr Bulldog in areas where allowed.
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Yeah, glad to hear you made it through safely, JC. i've had two inverted falls at Pinnacles - on Feed The Beast and White Punks On Rope - and both experiences were very unnerving.
Thanks dude. It kinda flipped me out (sorry...old 70's slang).
JC, get a chest harness, you have no proper hips for inverted fall harness tethering.
You haven't seen my waist lately.
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I think in general you are overthinking things. The reason that some people like Clink can drill holes so quickly is because he has spent years in his profession swinging a hammer. He is extremely accurate in transferring energy from the hammer to the drillbit.
It also helps to be able to swing a hammer for long periods without resting which is achieved through mileage.
I talked to a couple Brits at the Scout Peak overlook and they would say this is spot on.
I think it may also be related to his meanderthalism.
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I'm not asking the question because I think a technique change will allow we to drill as fast as Clink....
I am curious about different approaches though. I do think different techniques will yield different results. So I plan on trying a few to see.
Carry on with talking about poop then
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I'm not asking the question because I think a technique change will allow we to drill as fast as Clink....
I am curious about different approaches though. I do think different techniques will yield different results. So I plan on trying a few to see.
I think everyone develops and evolves their own style. clink, Gavin, Noal and I have pretty similar styles. For me it's about finding just the right tapping force to keep the drill turning as I tap. The rock is so variable that it makes that part tricky and sometimes aggravating. There is nothing worse than having to pull the drill out to get it to turn. I think the other important thing is to pick the best rock you can find, do a good job surfacing and if placing wedges - overdrill them to allow an easy replacement at some future date when we've long turned to dust.
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Hammering nails took a while for me. I was not a natural. My first routes preceded my entering the trade and I sucked at hammering. My difficulty placing bolts continued in later years, possibly from wailing too hard with the hammer. I broke some bits, two at belay anchors.
Climbing with Waldo and attempting over the better part of two outings to get a small section of a route furthered on stance, made me start to modify technique, this was again the case later, climbing with Aaron and the gas tube route.
Bolting is a necessary evil. Best to make them good. I have taken steps to reduce my carbon steel footprint.(I found a reliable SS dealer in Rio)
Disclaimer; the bolts on Prairie Home Companion's first pitch should not be trusted do to their age now and mine at the time of placement.
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Disclaimer; the bolts on Prairie Home Companion's first pitch should not be trusted do to their age now and mine at the time of placement.
Then get yer butt out there and replace them! :out: :ciappa:
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I drilled a bolt hole at Pinns yesterday, less wailing and more consistent tapping seemed to work better. I choked up on the hammer quite a bit too which helped. I tried out the consistent turning method with about 120 degree turns before grip changes and I liked this too. Will keep trying this out and see the difference over more bolts, but overall seemed better.
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I drilled a bolt hole at Pinns yesterday, less wailing and more consistent tapping seemed to work better. I choked up on the hammer quite a bit too which helped. I tried out the consistent turning method with about 120 degree turns before grip changes and I liked this too. Will keep trying this out and see the difference over more bolts, but overall seemed better.
Me too but it was nothing new for me.
It's easier on your wrists and your equipment too :thumbup: :biggrin: :yesnod:
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All of you missed two of the most critical "techniques."
1. Periodically miss with the hammer and scar the knuckles on your other hand;
2. Swear a lot.
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Oh don't you worry, I have those two techniques DOWN already!
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I drilled 3 bolts yesterday and was reminded that every hole is different (insert joke here?).
My technique varies somewhat on a case by case basis. I did notice that I tend to tap 6 or 7 times per 90 degrees of rotation. The last tap is more from inertia. My wrist doesn't go 120 degrees - so I am tapping 24 to 28 times for a full rotation and if the hole is going well, it takes very little force to turn the drill. if the rock gets chunky I let the drill bounce a bit in the hole (loose grip) and try to never force the turning. Forcing the turning will mess up your wrist and can also break the spring in the Rocpec. I think I have broken 4 springs over the course of hundreds of bolts. Petzl sent me replacement holders for all of them.
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Forcing the turning will mess up your wrist and can also break the spring in the Rocpec. I think I have broken 4 springs over the course of hundreds of bolts. Petzl sent me replacement holders for all of them.
Huh, I hadn't heard about Petzl sending you replacement holders... I'll have to see if I can find my Rocpec holder with the busted spring and send it off to them.
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2. Swear a lot.
Brad should start a thread about swearing technique
He is both a master swearer and able refrainer when he chooses.
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Brad should start a thread about swearing technique
He is both a master swearer and able refrainer when he chooses.
I'm an amateur compared to Katie. She knows all the cool words.
One of the latest trends? Calling someone who's an a##hole a "douche canoe."
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Huh, I hadn't heard about Petzl sending you replacement holders... I'll have to see if I can find my Rocpec holder with the busted spring and send it off to them.
They have a 3 year warranty.
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I'm an amateur compared to Katie. She knows all the cool words.
One of the latest trends? Calling someone who's an a##hole a "douche canoe."
That's so last year...
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No offense to any GOPs around here but I think TRUMP is the newest swear word.
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Our rent-a-potty door on the job site was inscribed with a sharpie as Trump Tower sometime earlier this week. Someone was obviously oozing inspiration.
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Our rent-a-potty door on the job site was inscribed with a sharpie as Trump Tower sometime earlier this week. Someone was obviously oozing inspiration.
Holy Shoot!
That was your job site?
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I can confirm he is not liked in Cuba.
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Reading through this thread, I see lots of questions and few answers with a basis for them. There are some research papers out there that provide basic information and it isn't hard to do testing of your own.
Rotation (indexing). There is data on rock drill bit indexing. I know of a paper from the 1950's that quantified the amount of rock removed by a hit adjacent to an existing hit. They used a chisel bit and made parallel craters. They got an ideal spacing of something like 1/2 inch. I did some tests with rotational indexing of a 3/8" bit ground to a square chisel point and found that 45 degrees on a flat granite surface works very well. In actual practice, I think that drilling in a confined hole with a v-shaped tip is optimum at a smaller angle. Maybe 15 degrees between strikes.
There is also data for the rock volume removed in relation to the energy of the strike. The researcher varied the angle between the two faces of the drill tip and the energy of the strike. With a 60-degree tip angle, about 75 ft-lbs was optimum. I think this was a 1/2" bit. Energy is 1/2 mass times velocity squared. Solving 75 ft-lbs for a 16-ounce hammerhead arrives at a velocity of 69 ft per second or 47 mph. (somebody check my math). pretty slow compared to a 90 mph fastball.
All of the above will vary with the type of rock.
Sharper bits drill faster and bits with a smaller angle between the faces drill faster. But, too sharp and too acute results in tips that shatter or wear out quickly.
Howard Hartman, Basic Studies of Percussion Drilling, Mining Engineering Jan 1959
Howard Hartman, The Simulation of percussion Drilling in the Laboratory By Indexed-Blow Studies, Society of Petroleum Engineers Journal, Sept 1963
Kahraman Bilgin & Feridunoglu, Dominant rock properties affecting the penetration rate of
percussive drills, International Journal of Rock Mechanics & Mining Sciences 40 (2003)
Dingxiang Zou, Theory and Technology of Rock Excavation for Civil Engineering (Chap2 Rock Drilling) Springer, Nov 21, 2016
John Musselman, Rice University Thesis, May 1967
Terralog Technologies, Fundamental Research on Percussion Drilling (for DOE), Dec 2005
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Maybe 15 degrees between strikes.
24 strikes per rotation
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24 strikes per rotation
Even taking your shoes and socks off would not have allowed that cypher.
You must have had help :lol: :prrr: :ciappa:
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Even taking your shoes and socks off would not have allowed that cypher.
You must have had help
It was easy, just think of Earth's orbit around the Sun divided evenly into 1/24th of a year. The earth travels 15 degrees in that time(24,347,338 miles) If you had an enormous bit that was 189,015,270 miles wide and were drilling on July 4th as the sun was about to rise you could clean out the Sun, Mercury, Venus and about half of Earth. What type of alloy your bit would have to be I don't know.
Note: To pull this off on January 2nd you would need to downsize your bit to 182,798,908 miles wide or you would take the Earth completely out(and the moon) with your bit.
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Just bring along a "Jim", he will bang out the bolts pretty fast.
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What type of alloy your bit would have to be I don't know.
Unobtanium
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Nice write up Merrek. I had not thought about how far to rotate when drilling. I just turn. I think a focus on just a small turn every hammer hit could help even if it is just to distract from the discomfort.
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I think a focus on just a small turn every hammer hit could help even if it is just to distract from the discomfort.
I've been doing that for years.
Clint clued me in to small taps and turns when getting the hole started and I just expanded it from there.
Bottom line is everybody has their own style and people tend to do whatever they think works best for them.
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Bottom line is everybody has their own style and people tend to do whatever they think works best for them.
If in any doubt about this, take a look at the plethora of jeans sizes and fit offerings at a typical department store to cover and in many cases enhance those bottom lines.
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I have been around when Clink drills. He does not tap, it is a defined strike.
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A picture of some rotation testing.
http://dammerr.com/crud/Rotation.jpg (http://dammerr.com/crud/Rotation.jpg)
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I have been around when Clink drills. He does not tap, it is a defined strike.
Yep. He's been on strike for over a year now and no end in sight. :madman:
Plus you can't compare clink with other people that hand drill. He is a virtuoso of the hammer. :guitar:
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This comment is for fans of The Wire.
tap tap tap
tap tap tap
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Nice illustration. I rotate way more the 15 degrees.