MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: djh650 on December 27, 2020, 09:07:44 PM
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seen this earlier.
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another excuse for me to not climb 5.12
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Whoa, glad the climbing party made it out safely.
Cataract Corner was rap bolted by Carville in 1986, correct? I wonder if this could be a motivator to replace the old bolts (and perhaps change the location of the bolt just above the crux which most everyone (myself included) feels has terrible placement).
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Damn!
Well there is a cool replacement project.
Agree with adjusting the crux clipping placement...
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Clicking on the picture - that stud shows no rust (I see some slight surface rust on the nut).
I can't tell how long that wrench is but given the fact that the poster climbs 5.12 - they probably cranked too hard on the bolt and broke it.
Those bolts are not that old (34 years) but I have no idea what brand they are. They might be hardware store wedges.
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The first person account is posted to https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106329249/cataract-corner
4th bolt has broken off. When climbing I noticed 4th bolt hanger was very loose so I got my wrench out to tighten nut. When I turned wrench, nut didn’t turn, must have rusted and binded to the screw, and nut plus screw broke off. Needs replacement. May want to inspect all bolts on the route. I have the hanger in my possession for reuse if necessary, hanger looks ok.
I put blue climbing tape over the first hanger so hopefully no one tries the climb with no 4th bolt
-Travis Koh
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If a nut is frozen on a stud you don't keep trying to turn it.
Likely the surface of the rock underneath the hanger disintegrated over time (very common at Pinns) and the hanger became loose.
That bolt could also have been a 2 1/2 inch split shaft. Those studs have an end to the threads and will only tighten so far before the nut bottoms out.
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I wonder if this could be a motivator to replace the old bolts (and perhaps change the location of the bolt just above the crux which most everyone (myself included) feels has terrible placement).
Thanks Gavin! On that same MtnProj page, Tom Davis said "Mike has given his blessing to clean up the bolt spacing and position..."
And is it true that there is not a bolt on the top 1/3 (easier) part of the (sport) route? I followed it years ago (not clean) and don't remember.
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^^^
The topo shows it as 5.7R at the end.
If you can climb 5.12 - a 5.7 runout should put you to sleep imo.
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As if mtn proj wasn't bad enough they also posted on fb.
At least one person echoed my comment on mtn proj.
Snug a bolt to a reasonable tightness? Sure - if you know what a reasonable level of tightness is.
Don't crank on an already tight bolt.
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10104954619469728&set=gm.3487838117992353
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The topo shows it as 5.7R at the end.
If you can climb 5.12 - a 5.7 runout should put you to sleep imo.
I see. Thanks! I guess you are right. 5.7R is not too big a deal after 5.12; I just hope holds don't break on somebody on that runout.
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I see. Thanks! I guess you are right. 5.7R is not too big a deal after 5.12; I just hope holds don't break on somebody on that runout.
In my never-humble opinion there is no real excuse for a runout like that though on a rap-bolted route. If it was a ground up route? Sure, gun for the top on easy ground. But the whole idea of rap-bolting is to create well protected routes (at least that's one of the ideas behind it).
Also, without checking, my best memory is that that was one of the few climbs on which the bolt holes were drilled using a Bosch (before the Park Service gave that idea a big "no"). If my memory is correct, that leaves even less of a reason to include a run out of that length.
And everyone knows that holds never break on The Monolith....
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Hah, I was just about to post a similar comment to Brad.
Given the circumstances of the original drilling / bolting, and Carville's blessing to update bolts and bolt placement, I think Cataract Corner would be well served by new bolts and some updated bolt placement.
The first 4-5 bolts are okay in their positions, but the bolt above the crux is terrible - you basically have to climb above the crux and then clip the bolt below your feet. The climbing gets quite a bit easier after that, but would still benefit from at least one more bolt to the top.
I would be willing to place new bolts for that route, but I don't have the gear / skill for effective bolt removal like Bruce, JC, or Brad.
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Might have to drill a new hole for the bolt that snapped off. Guess that depends on how much threads are left.
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I think that this may be a really good candidate for glue-in replacement bolts. New glue-ins are pretty darn good and this gets a lot of traffic - to include a lot of hang-dogging. And hang-dogging can work any mechanical bolt loose over time.
Lemme contact Jim Thornberg about this. He knows glue-ins and Pinnacles (and if he'd help, maybe it would be a good time to remove the old bolt next to the new glue-in that he placed on Lard Butt?).
I also think that having J.C. help would be critical to achieving the best possible workmanship (like, for example, trying to re-use most of the old holes). The beloved old curmudgeon doesn't work much on the older pure sport routes though. Should we beg him? Threats instead? Flattery? What can we do to keep the Chance Brothers out of the discussion?
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Hah, I was just about to post a similar comment to Brad.
Given the circumstances of the original drilling / bolting, and Carville's blessing to update bolts and bolt placement, I think Cataract Corner would be well served by new bolts and some updated bolt placement.
The first 4-5 bolts are okay in their positions, but the bolt above the crux is terrible - you basically have to climb above the crux and then clip the bolt below your feet. The climbing gets quite a bit easier after that, but would still benefit from at least one more bolt to the top.
I would be willing to place new bolts for that route, but I don't have the gear / skill for effective bolt removal like Bruce, JC, or Brad.
Looking at the topo - the run from the crux with a 5.9 move just before the last bolt looks worse to me than the ending.
I agree with the idea that there was really no need for that wide spacing at the end - especially if it was (and it was) rap bolted.
It's inconsistent with the bolt spacing on the rest of the route.
Now as far as having the tools to remove what I am assuming are wedge bolts on that route - I don't have the tools for that.
Not being able to climb at that level I would also not be able to accurately determine where to place the crux bolt - which is moot since I probably have no way of removing the not-so-old wedge? bolts. If they are split shafts - that's a different story. All it usually takes to solve the mystery is to remove the hangers and look to see if the threads end. The other thing to look for is a letter stamped on the end of the bolt shaft - those two identifiers are not a guarantee but they are likely evidence for wedge (letter, no end to threads) versus split shaft (no letter, end to threads). I have in a few cases had longer split shafts or set bolts that had no end to the threads or hardware store wedge bolts that didn't have a letter on the end. Solve that mystery and take closeup pictures and we can talk. I guess the other shot to take would be to ask Carville if he remembers what he used. Tom Davis posted as recently as 2019 about this route on mtn proj. Maybe he knows - or keeps in contact with Carville.
If the bolts have threads that bottom out - causing hanger looseness - that can be corrected with washers.
I'll just go ahead and say it too since others are thinking it but aren't likely to say it. I have little tolerance for rebolting issues being caused by people cranking on bolts that are already tight and snapping them off. That loose hanger problem probably could have been solved with a washer or two and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
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I revised that topo for the new book (about two years ago by rapping over the route to study it). The old one had the wrong number of bolts (if I recall correctly). And I adjusted the positioning too.
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I revised that topo for the new book (about two years ago by rapping over the route to study it). The old one had the wrong number of bolts (if I recall correctly). And I adjusted the positioning too.
Invalid without pictures.
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New glue-ins...
I have a question regarding their durability with straight outward pulls. Usually, when people think about hang dogging, they think about the downward force on the hanger. But in the case of an overhanging route and when people work on it on TR, they have the rope clipped to keep the climber close to the wall. When hanging on TR below the draw, the force on the bolt is straight outward. This is the case with Feed the Beast. Will that repeated outward pull work glue-ins loose over time?
P.S. I appreciated the glue-ins on Feed the Beast.
P.P.S. Looks like in the case of Cataract Corner, an unintentional mistake will lead to a better route. Not all is lost then.
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I can't do a "picture," at least not with any ease.
The topo is a Photoshop document and configuring that so that i could post it here? No way.
You've got Photoshop on your computer. Want me to email you a copy?
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I think that this may be a really good candidate for glue-in replacement bolts. New glue-ins are pretty darn good and this gets a lot of traffic - to include a lot of hang-dogging. And hang-dogging can work any mechanical bolt loose over time.
Lemme contact Jim Thornberg about this. He knows glue-ins and Pinnacles (and if he'd help, maybe it would be a good time to remove the old bolt next to the new glue-in that he placed on Lard Butt?).
I also think that having J.C. help would be critical to achieving the best possible workmanship (like, for example, trying to re-use most of the old holes). The beloved old curmudgeon doesn't work much on the older pure sport routes though. Should we beg him? Threats instead? Flattery? What can we do to keep the Chance Brothers out of the discussion?
I think this would be a good solution.
If a permission to use a power drill is not permitted then a good solution would be to have people who are willing to make multiple trips to hand drill the holes. Then Jim could come down and install the bolts.
In any case if the bolts on the Monolith need to be replaced and brought to modern standards.Maybe we can all pool our knowledge, good samaritanship, and work together to make that happen.
have little tolerance for rebolting issues being caused by people cranking on bolts that are already tight and snapping them off.
I think the person who tightened the bolt had the best intentions. Most climbers dont even carry a wrench. At least this guy was trying to the best he could versus others who would not even try to tighten the nut but would just remove the hanger and not leave a note.
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I think the person who tightened the bolt had the best intentions. Most climbers dont even carry a wrench. At least this guy was trying to the best he could versus others who would not even try to tighten the nut but would just remove the hanger and not leave a note.
I agree.
And what's more irritating, a "botched" attempt to fix it, or the usual post on some site telling "the world" that this or that bolt is a problem and expecting that "someone" will just go fix it?
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^^^
This is, by the way, a rhetorical question (no need for an answer).
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Might have to drill a new hole for the bolt that snapped off. Guess that depends on how much threads are left.
Yep.
The route probably just needs the one bolt replaced.
Should we contact the climber who broke it and use the old adage from childhood?
You break it. You pay for it.
Except in this case - You broke it. You pay for it. You fix it. :lol:
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I will leave it to others with expertise to contact Jim, Carville, etc.
I would be happy to be a part of the efforts to manually re-drill holes, if needed, or to at least add a bolt higher on Cataract and change the location of the post-crux bolt. I have climbed Cataract enough times that I think getting proper bolt placement for drilling would not be that complicated - preferred drill sites could be marked with a bit of chalk while climbing up on a fixed line.
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Noal, yes, it's a good idea to work on it as a team drilling replacement holes as they take some time to drill by hand.
On Shake-n-Bake we had 2 folks drilling at the same time.
It's well worth the end product.
Count me in to help with the replacement.
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I am willing to go down during the week and drill holes too.
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Noal, yes, it's a good idea to work on it as a team drilling replacement holes as they take some time to drill by hand.
On Shake-n-Bake we had 2 folks drilling at the same time.
Actually, it looks like you had three people drilling at the same time on that effort (according at least to the photos that Bruce posted to MtnProject just within the last few days - photos which include you, by the way).
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True Brad, but I could not remember the exact numbers, so I rounded down to be conservative.
The other niggle was the drill size, as the glue-in hole is much larger.
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I will leave it to others with expertise to contact Jim, Carville, etc.
Me too.
I would be happy to be a part of the efforts to manually re-drill holes, if needed,
Count me in to help with the replacement.
I am willing to go down during the week and drill holes too.
Have fun! I'll listen for the sound of your synchronous tapping.
P.S. What the he!! is a niggle F4?
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P.S.S. Rubine's newer edition lists the bolts as 3/8 wedges.
Just wanted to say...Good Luck...We're all counting on you!
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Actually, it looks like you had three people drilling at the same time on that effort (according at least to the photos that Bruce posted to MtnProject just within the last few days - photos which include you, by the way).
The person at the bottom seems to have to get rained on from all the drill dust? And where is the helmet police? That's a lot of trust in F4 not to accidentally drop his hammer! (Edit: Never mind. F4 was the one getting rained on. I guess Mud was safe.)
(https://cdn2.apstatic.com/photos/climb/120115001_medium_1609048793.jpg)
Photo Courtesy: https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/120115001
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Ha! Great picture.
My memory and math was off!!
Yeah, and we still barely finished both routes that weekend.
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Never mind. F4 was the one getting rained on.
Explains a lot doesn't it ;) ;D
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Explains a lot doesn't it
Alpinists are used to it.
Mr. Mud has a think skull.
Now right there you can see the 1st pitch crux bolt spacing.....
Me- easy terrain.
Mr. Mud- bottom of the crux
Brian B- Post crux
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Mr. Mud has a think skull
Sometimes I wish mine had this feature.
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Bolts break when over-torqued along stress risers which are usually and unfortunately a part of the design. One of the most common ways a wedge bolt breaks is at the spot where the small end of the moveable cone sits at the non-thread end of the bolt. This is because the bolt is significantly narrower there than the rest of the bolt. This is how we used to "remove" wedge bolts before someone came up with the technique for spinning them to set the cone and keep it from sliding up the shaft.
However because the wedge bolt is so popular in the construction world there are lots of companies who make them and because of this the quality can really vary. This means that it is very likely that the other place there is a significant stress riser on a wedge bolt, which is the threads, could also break during over-torquing. This is why it is highly recommended when using wedge bolts for climbing that you purchase ones which used "rolled" rather than "cut" threads. "Rolled" threads eliminate this stress riser.
In the case of the bolt on Cataract Corner it is possible that the bolt did break because of a stress riser in the threads.
As far as glue-ins are concerned, yes, someone with experience should place them. The most common way to do this is to drill all the holes at once and when they are done, then go back and glue all the bolts in. One essential step is to save a sample of the glue coming out of the mixing nozzle so that you can ensure that it was mixing correctly and will set up properly. BTW, yesterday, the ASCA just placed an order for 400 titanium glue ins from a company in the UK. They take a 9/16" hole so drilling isn't going to be much fun, but I am sure they would provide the hardware for this effort.
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Hey Bruce, 1more niggle with the glue in glue...it’s temperature sensitive!
I remember the horror at the end of the day on Lava Falls when it got cloud and glue was not coming out willingly!!
And I still have nightmares from helping to drill those damn holes!!
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Hey, I just remember a few years ago I wrote an article for Climbing Magazine(soon to be merged with Rock and Ice) about bad bolts, how to identify them and what to do when you do(the thing that you do):
https://www.climbing.com/skills/how-to-identify-bad-climbing-bolts/
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Pretty run of the mill article Bruce, at least when compared to the earlier dam article you wrote ;) ;D
Seriously though, when combined with the photos, it's a very good piece.
But please tell me that that photo of a quarter incher sticking way out of the hole was staged? It had to be, right?
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You mean this dam article?
https://rockandice.com/climbing-destinations/the-best-dam-climb-in-america/
That bolt you referred to in the article was from a photo by Clint. I believe he told me it was somewhere on Middle Cathedral in Yosemite.
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That bolt you referred to in the article was from a photo by Clint. I believe he told me it was somewhere on Middle Cathedral in Yosemite.
The caption says it is loose from the wall. It doesn't say how.
The shaft appears to be most of the way out - I can see most of the "split" portion protruding.
Looks staged.
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I don't know if the photo was staged or not. When I lived in Yosemite Valley for a couple of years in the mid-late 1970's we came across a few bolts which look like this. People would rap webbing between the hanger and the wall to reduce leverage.
It was at about that time that the only major epidemic of bolt breakage that I know of occurred. George Meyers, who a few years after this incident would popularize topos for rock climbing guidebooks and found Chockstone Press, bought a huge lot of 1/4" split shafts. To defray some of his costs he sold a bunch of them to other climbers in the valley. After a number of these bolts started breaking under bodyweight an investigation determined that during the manufacture, the process creating the split shaft had been flawed and had severely weakened the bolts. By then these bolts were on numerous routes in the Valley. My partner and I broke one on a route over at the Arches Slabs(Moving Like a Stud(great route, BTW) and one over on the Apron by Friday the 13th. Them's were bad bolts for sure!
I should add that the majority of the bolts i remove during rebolting, both here and in Colorado, I send to the Colorado State University at Fort Collins for testing. Almost all the bolts are amazingly strong in shear(the only testing they can do). They tested some 40 year old 1/4" ers which Clint removed from a climb in Tuolumne Meadows and they all tested about 4000lbs in shear.
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This is why it is highly recommended when using wedge bolts for climbing that you purchase ones which used "rolled" rather than "cut" threads. "Rolled" threads eliminate this stress riser.
Eliminate or reduce the stress riser?
I've seen threads on this topic where engineers can't agree.
I'd also like to know how many bolt failures have been documented on cut threads.
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I know I am an outlier here but I am fine with the bolt spacing on Cataract Corner. Having to push through the crux then clip is part of what made the route. Moving the bolts and removing the runout at the end makes it just another sport route. The thing is with the crux even though you have to push through the crux moves to clip, the fall is clean. The lower bolts spacing is perfectly fine. Cataract is a physically challenging route, having to push through the crux adds a bit of a mental challenge as well.
I like the idea of glue ins. We did those two routes on the balconies in two days. We drilled all the holes then put in the glue ins. This could be done with Future Shock at the same time.
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I know I am an outlier here but I am fine with the bolt spacing on Cataract Corner. Having to push through the crux then clip is part of what made the route. Moving the bolts and removing the runout at the end makes it just another sport route. The thing is with the crux even though you have to push through the crux moves to clip, the fall is clean. The lower bolts spacing is perfectly fine. Cataract is a physically challenging route, having to push through the crux adds a bit of a mental challenge as well.
I hate you!
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I hate you!
Wait, isn’t the correct response “DIE”
LOL! What did you expect mudworm? Salty old crusty hard climber....course he’s
going to lean into it!
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I hate you!
I am feeling the love.
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Eliminate or reduce the stress riser?
I've seen threads on this topic where engineers can't agree.
I'd also like to know how many bolt failures have been documented on cut threads.
John,
you need to talk the folks at Fixe. They ran tests on "rolled" threads vs "cut" threads and found that, in shear, the bolts with "cut" threads were 33% the strength of bolts with "rolled" threads. My guess is that as this is their core business and they don't want to go bankrupt with lawsuits that they are pretty diligent with their testing and interpretation of the results.
We also replicated this data at Colorado State University at Fort Collins (4000lbs vs 1300lbs).
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I hate you!
Ah, but fear not Mudworm the little wheels are turning in my head....
I have a simple solution...custom length cable draws.
Have a runout or clip you don't like, simple.
Attach a cable draw to the bolt above, extended down to your preferred clipping stance.
Lava Falls, Shake n Bake and Mamary Pump will be the test cases.
Now back to rolled versus cut. You gotta give it to them Spaniards, they must have been doing a fair about of testing to perfect their designs...versus Powers, whose are for concrete.
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...the little wheels are turning in my head....
How little?
Attach a cable draw to the bolt above, extended down to your preferred clipping stance.
That reminded me... A couple of years ago when I was on an outing with some modern climbers, I was shown some looooonnnng stiff quickdraws, exactly designed for short people. I couldn't believe it! Forgot about that.
Now back to rolled versus cut.
I like my steel cut oatmeal, but when I make cookies, I use rolled. I had those cookies just now!
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I prefer when it does not roll over my belt.
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With regards to if the photo in my article in Climbing Magazine about bad bolts was staged, go to the source. Clint says that he found that bolt on the unfinished pitch 5 of a previously unknown route on the Middle Cathedral Apron in Yosemite in 2008. Here are two photos of how he initially found it and after he cleaned off the sling(which is the photo in the Climbing Magazine article).
https://link.shutterfly.com/pmwjvg4WEcb (https://link.shutterfly.com/pmwjvg4WEcb)
https://link.shutterfly.com/GsQMKG7WEcb (https://link.shutterfly.com/GsQMKG7WEcb)
(https://link.shutterfly.com/i2jgBU0XEcb)
Man that sling and the thought of clipping it makes me ill. Too many times in the Valley.
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Oops! My Shutterfly account is a bit messed up and I was trying to actually embed the photos in my message. I deleted my original message(referenced by Sqiddo above). Hopefully, I can get that or my Flickr account updated so I can embed photos and not use links.
With regards to if the photo in my article in Climbing Magazine about bad bolts was staged, go to the source. Clint says that he found that bolt on the unfinished pitch 5 of a previously unknown route on the Middle Cathedral Apron in Yosemite in 2008. Here are two photos of how he initially found it and after he cleaned off the sling(which is the photo in the Climbing Magazine article).
https://link.shutterfly.com/pmwjvg4WEcb
https://link.shutterfly.com/GsQMKG7WEcb
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Hey, we have photos!
With sling in place:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50782507217_40993127f2.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kntCag)clint_bolt_sm (https://flic.kr/p/2kntCag) by Bruce Hildenbrand (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143001297@N05/), on Flickr
With sling removed:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50781636943_c204a80049.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2knpasx)bolt_1 (https://flic.kr/p/2knpasx) by Bruce Hildenbrand (https://www.flickr.com/photos/143001297@N05/), on Flickr
Vedict: not staged
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Waiting for F4? to say that bolt is fine.
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The bolt is fine, just girth hitch the stud.
Better than nothing.
At least in Stromland all the bolts are good. Lacking in some areas, but still good.
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Great photo's Bruce. I have clipped a few of those, even added my own sling.
Also thanks for the info on rolled vs cut, good to know there is actual testing going on and that it is known that rolled is better than cut. I have for the most part gone back to strictly using 5 piece.
When trying to tighten a bolt I have broken at least one bolt that I can remember. Sometimes sh*t just happens. But, I am also the guy that replaced a bolt using just a crowbar, because I left the hammer at home and did not realize this until after pulling the bolt. How many people can say they drilled a bolt using a crowbar?
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What about torquing the bolts with the crowbar?
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My guess is that as this is their core business and they don't want to go bankrupt with lawsuits that they are pretty diligent with their testing and interpretation of the results
I noticed they still offer 3/8" SS Powers 304 wedge bolts on their website.
https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/bolts.html (https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/bolts.html)
They also offer their stamped wedgebolts that mention the stamping in the product description.
There is no mention of milling or stamping in the description of for the Powers products on their site so can we just assume that these are milled?
If Fixe is so worried about getting sued why would they continue to offer these Powers products?
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I noticed they still offer 3/8" SS Powers 304 wedge bolts on their website.
https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/bolts.html (https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/bolts.html)
They also offer their stamped wedgebolts that mention the stamping in the product description.
There is no mention of milling or stamping in the description of for the Powers products on their site so can we just assume that these are milled?
If Fixe is so worried about getting sued why would they continue to offer these Powers products?
I couldn't agree more Noal.
If you read about rolled versus cut threads it says that the cost is much less for rolled threads.
That begs the question - why would a huge company like Powers (owned by Dewalt/Black and Decker) cut threads if it's not cost effective? Powers also produces the long sleeve bolts Mr. Mud mentioned.
From what I have read, it sounds like cut threads are used when it is a short/small/custom production run and if the size of the bolt exceeds 1 inch in diameter.
There is evidently a size/diameter limit on rolled threads.
I also would like to see data regarding how many cut thread bolts have failed and caused climbing accidents.
I know personally at least half a dozen people who use Powers wedges for their FA's (Pinns and elsewhere).
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By the way...I haven't seen anyone report that they replaced this bolt.
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Noal,
you asked a good question so I decided to go to the source and I called up Kevin Daniels who owns Fixe. I asked him about the fact that he sells bolts with both "rolled"(Fixe calls them "stamped") and "cut" threads. He said that the products that Fixe makes(as stated on the Fixe website) are the strongest and best bolts for climbing. But, he acknowledged that they cost more money than bolts which are made for construction so to keep his doors open he needs to offer a more cost-friendly option to his customers.
I asked him if he was concerned about the strength of wedge bolts with "cut" threads and he replied that Powers stands behind their bolts and that is good enough for him.
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Bruce,
Thanks for asking about that. That's kind of what I deduced. I buy my bolts through the account I have for my business with a fastener supplier in SF. I can buy all of the bolts offered on the Fixe site for a significantly lower price. You just have to know what to ask for.
Powers definitely has to stand behind the products that they offer. Just think of all the fasteners that are used to hold up things in public spaces that we walk or drive under everyday.
I think having the option to buy a wedge bolt that is over engineered specifically for climbing gives climbers piece of mind and being able to have a middle man like Fixe takes away some of the hand wringing and "what ifs" that climbers are prone to obsessing over. More POWER ;) to Fixe if they can capitalize on that.
There are specs for all kinds of construction and climbing products but it is ultimately up to the user to use their own best judgement where to use them.
For instance, a long wedge bolt with cut threads maybe fine on a "no fall" non sport route but not the best for a sport route say on the monolith where there are climbers working a route (especially on a loose hanger sawing into the threads) and lowering off one bolt. Maybe this combined with the seaside environment is why some of the 316 stainless wedges at Mickey's have failed under body weight.
It would be nice to see the Monolith updated with glue in's and the old junky wedge bolts replaced. Like I said upthread I am willing to volunteer my time to make that happen.
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Maybe this combined with the seaside environment is why some of the 316 stainless wedges at Mickey's have failed under body weight.
The coastal/seaside environment will eat through any metal - stainless or not.
The only bolt I would trust in that environment would be one I just placed - and just that once.
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Ahhh, Mickey's Beach. Grave Yard for bolts.
25yrs later I gotta wonder if the U Glue-ins they placed are still there. Folks put in alot of effort to maintain the bolts compared to how they were 90-93....prior to the Stainless Glue-in U bolts.
What fun routes at a great setting. Gotta bring your A Game!
Maybe worth a visit this spring when the tide is low and the rock dry.
Here is a good Mickey's tangent for you.....
We go to Mickey's circa '94 around March/ April and something just looks odd.... There is more light in the pit area where we would lay the packs. We go to marvel at the Beach Crack and assess if we can do rust never sleeps.
Where did the beach crack go???? WTF?? the Wall fell off!!! WOAH!
No internet, no Mtn Project, No Supertopo.
We came back in May and the locals had already bolted the newly exposed rock!!!
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I called up Kevin Daniels who owns Fixe. I asked him about the fact that he sells bolts with both "rolled"(Fixe calls them "stamped") and "cut" threads. He said that the products that Fixe makes(as stated on the Fixe website) are the strongest and best bolts for climbing. But, he acknowledged that they cost more money than bolts which are made for construction so to keep his doors open he needs to offer a more cost-friendly option to his customers.
I asked him if he was concerned about the strength of wedge bolts with "cut" threads and he replied that Powers stands behind their bolts and that is good enough for him.
I would like to see the documentation that says Powers bolts have cut threads. I can't find it.
From a production/business perspective this makes no sense to me - especially since Black and Decker/DeWalt is probably the biggest hardware manufacturer in the world - and they didn't get there by wasting time and money (which is what cutting threads does).
From an engineer I know;
I can't say I've done extensive research but I'd say that all the common wedge and sleeve bolts have rolled threads. There might be some exotic bolts with cut threads but I've never used one.
Rolled threads are the norm for large volume production. Rolled is stronger, has better fatigue performance, uses less material, produces less waste and is faster to do than any method of cutting.
Cut threads are most commonly used where high precision is more important than strength, where production volume is small, the part is very small or very large.
Threaded rod or all-thread is rolled and doesn't have a shoulder.
Nuts generally have cut threads because that is the easiest and cheapest way to thread them.
Here is a picture he sent me of a couple bolts with rolled threads that were sitting on his desk.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3eog4drL38jxR3SFBUL4m0f1_FvDgfvjX-drYwI3SbTr0d3VL8PutWt4jpUgRr_Zx9mJaPGPoEJCWWMD1VpkOo3eLfNH0PF9KKsZt7tpPa4glBBDKLVbTW2F_XVCXSQhGQixK183v6XPPMHD12nLSGN=w994-h624-no?authuser=0)
If Fixe bolts are rolled, that means the production cost is cheaper - so why are they so expensive?
I would imagine the answer is - they are a relatively small, specialized, European company.
I still love and buy their hangers but I haven't seen them put their bolt/hanger combos on sale for many years.
I used to buy all my stuff from them when they ran those sales a couple times a year.
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I disagree, the threads are far inside the hole.
How can cut threads break?
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I disagree, the threads are far inside the hole.
How can cut threads break?
Let's keep this fire burning until something gets done.
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I just emailed those who expressed an interest in rebolting this route. It looks like we've got drillers and a climber (Jim Thornburg) who knows the rock and knows glue-in bolts (the things he's proposing look really good and big).
We're moving on to scheduling.
If anyone is interested in helping but I didn't include you in the email, your willingness to help wasn't obvious enough to get through my dense skull (so email me and I'll include you in).
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Thanks Brad.
We need Clint the robo driller.
Mr Mud, meh he’s gotten soft.
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DIE
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I just wanted to give an update about Fixe which will more fully answer Noal's question.
The website that Noal referenced is for a climbing bolt product company which is owned by Kevin Daniels. He is the distributor for Fixe products in the USA. Kevin is not an employee of Fixe nor does Fixe in Spain, which produces Fixe's products, own his company.
So, as stated in my previous E-mail, Kevin has decided to carry the Powers bolts so as to offer a lower-cost option. This is a decision he has made for his company, not a decision made by Fixe in Spain. I hope this helps clarify the situation.
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Thanks Bruce!
Makes sense Kevin is a Distributor of Fixe products and Powers.
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This was posted on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10104954619469728&set=gm.3487838117992353) 2 hours ago:
(https://i.imgur.com/QfyIS2i.png)
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Thanks Adam!,
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Thanks Adam!,
Don't think he can hear you. Did he use to visit here? I have a feeling he doesn't any more.
P.S. Reposted earlier screenshot.
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Why so many banned, need to offer free beer
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Don't think he can hear you. Did he use to visit here? I have a feeling he doesn't any more.
P.S. Reposted earlier screenshot.
Atomizer is still around.
He posts on here every once in a while.
The most recent was on my birthday in 2020.
I should have posted earlier about his work since we have been in touch recently.
Adam has a real passion for Pinnacles and has done a fair share of rebolting.
He's been a great member of our community for a Long time (pun intended).
He does great work and it is much appreciated.
He may get on here and comment in the next few days.
I will update the Master List with the info he gave me.
The only Cataracts that concern me these days are the ones growing in my eyes.
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Wow. I didn't know there was so much talk here about the Cataract Corner situation. I Hope I wasn't stepping on any toes by going for it with approval first. We had to leave our house for four days, due to construction, so we headed down to the Pinnacles to camp and see if we remembered how to climb. I've had a sack of 1/2" bolts from the ASCA sitting unused for quite a while making my arm sore when I looked at them.
I replaced bolts 2-4 with 1/2" powers bolts. I initially replaced the snapped off bolt #4 with a 2 3/4" bolt. Curse me if that seems short... maybe it is, yet the rock seemed pretty damn solid. Then I looked at the other bolts and got a little freaked out and had to come back two days later and replaced 2 and 3 with 4 3/4" bolts. It didn't even take that long, maybe 30 mins a pop and I still have all my finger nails. two of the reaming bolts look bad. Tom and I had planned to go back this week but life got in the way. This route will be completely fixed soon with all new bolts and a more enjoyable retro-bolted arrangement. I'm happy with the choice of the 1/2" bolts I put in. Being old wedgies, the old bolts snapped off. One much easily than the other.
As for glueins, I think it's totally overkill. One of the problems with the pinnacles is the hold breaking issue. And to move or remove a gluein later is impossible. Also a lot of glueins need to be notched and the holes drilled at a downward angle, so they don't spin and to keep the upper carabiner of your quickdraw from spinning upside-down and unclipping. Most of the glueins at the pinnacles are not placed well. Honestly that bolt on the crux of Lava Falls is hands down the worst placed gleuin I've seen anywhere in the world... Sorry if I rattle anyone with that, but I have trouble not being honest. That said I'd welcome glueins with the Master Thornburg being there to advise.
Looking forward to doing more of this type of work in the future. And I hope this is the statement of death for 3/8" bolts on the classic sport routes. of Pinnacles.
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Honestly that bolt on the crux of Lava Falls is hands down the worst placed gleuin I've seen anywhere in the world... Sorry if I rattle anyone with that, but I have trouble not being honest. That said I'd welcome glueins with the Master Thornburg being there to advise.
Sheesh, so critical of the handy work.
Yeah, that was my fear about glue-in's...there is a specific art.
Lava Falls, sigh that was drilled and then filled at 5-6pm in the evening. It was too cold, the glue would not come out and broke the gun. So the work around was extract the glue into a plastic bag, run it up and inject it...not pretty to say the least.
At least it's a 6" x 1/2'" bolt and that rock was amazingly solid.
Plus the team was not glue-in savvy as was I think Greg when he did the work (all by hand mind you).
Glad to see you posting up, don't be a stranger.
We need more conspiracy theories about the monument.
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If Sharma wants to come put some glue ins in, he's welcome to. But I could give two shits about whether a big name is pissed or not. Its all hindsight judging until someone actually does the work. So in that spirt, the utmost appreciation to you guys for actually making it happen!
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I'm glad I rattled a few of you, but I felt bad and edited my post. Maybe I'm feeling sad about a few things today.
I just don't think the gluein bolts are needed at places like the monolith.
It's more of a hassle than it's worth.
We've been led to believe they are some kind of gold standard.
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I'm glad I rattled a few of you, but I felt bad and edited my post. Maybe I'm feeling sad about a few things today.
I just don't think the gluein bolts are needed at places like the monolith.
It's more of a hassle than it's worth.
We've been led to believe they are some kind of gold standard.
Hi Adam! I wasn’t rattled but appreciated the comment for what it was. Also, appreciated the hell out of clipping the bolt! Thank you all for the service. FAs and replacing bolts are work!
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Adam, I am not offended.
Rather the story behind the lava falls glue in....is interesting. Imagine it’s Sunday evening, sun has set, it’s getting cold, you think you are all done and then from above...glue not coming out!!
Personally, I lobbied Clint for the bolt to go higher, but he gave in by 4”!
Glue ins at the pinnacles are difficult to do by hand, versus elsewhere with a power drill.
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Thanks Adam!
Having someone who is familiar with the routes on the Monolith who knows how to rebolt and can make good decisions about if new holes need to be drilled or if bolts need to be moved is key.
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I'm glad I rattled a few of you..
Now I can't decide if I should or should not be rattled.
This route will be completely fixed soon with all new bolts and a more enjoyable retro-bolted arrangement.
I thank you on behalf of all the softies.
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what did i miss
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Nothing, still raining up there in Canada?
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I'm glad I rattled a few of you, but I felt bad and edited my post. Maybe I'm feeling sad about a few things today.
I just don't think the gluein bolts are needed at places like the monolith.
It's more of a hassle than it's worth.
We've been led to believe they are some kind of gold standard.
Don't feel bad about being honest.
I wouldn't know a badly placed glue-in if I saw one.
I've placed a few half inch x 2 3/4 sleeve bolts at my anchors and I would haul a truck off them.
The bigger internal bolt and the thickness/beefiness of the sleeve compared to a 3/8 inch bolt is impressive.
I was so glad to hear that you got out and did that work Adam.
It was good to see you and Kelly yesterday.
Looks like it was gorgeous again today but we took a break.
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It was good to see you and Kelly yesterday.
Looks like it was gorgeous again today but we took a break.
I'm really happy that we ran into you in the parking lot. I had a feeling we'd run into someone we knew with the closures happening so soon.
We had great fun on Full Circle. Cool climbing on loose but well protected rock.
Congrats on your new route. Sounds like a cool spot.
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This is a minor situation that probably does not deserve its own thread.
The base of Cataract Corner is on this slanted rock. While hanging out there, I clip everything into a loop in the extra rope so they do not roll down into the void below. While belaying a heavier climber (on toprope), I sit at the top of the rock and swing a leg over the top so I can brace myself and not be pulled up when the climber hangs on the rope. I wish there was a ground anchor bolt I could clip into. Apparently, there was one before. Not sure what happened to it -- was the hanger removed out of spite, or did it just fall apart due to age?
(https://i.imgur.com/VWw4He7.jpg)
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That looks like a split shaft bolt with the shaft exposed. One option would be to take a 3/8 nut (assuming it's 3/8), a few washers and a hanger, and a wrench - and put a hanger on it. The washers may or may not be needed(best to take a couple just in case.
I can easily replace that next time I am on the east side (could be months).
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I'll hope for a bolt fairy to visit it in the present Pinnacles season. :)
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The base of Cataract Corner is on this slanted rock. While hanging out there, I clip everything into a loop in the extra rope so they do not roll down into the void below. While belaying a heavier climber (on toprope), I sit at the top of the rock and swing a leg over the top so I can brace myself and not be pulled up when the climber hangs on the rope. I wish there was a ground anchor bolt I could clip into.
I had a rude awakening last weekend -- I need to lose a few pounds! My partner (a normal sized guy) was belaying me on TR while standing by the tree/brush (back away from the wall to reduce rope drag and interference). At the higher crux, I did a throw to a hold, but didn't stick it. At the time, I had a loop in front of me (he belays like Mr. Mud), so I shock loaded the rope a little when I came off. It pulled my partner off his feet and sent him flying! I had to teach him my belay technique by hooking the right leg on the backside of the rock while sitting on the tip of the slanted rock, which worked quite effectively. Glad that he didn't drop me in that unexpected moment.
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I think if there was a loop the rope was not shock loaded, I do agree he was shocked to log air time. Slack allows the rope to have more stretch and I think put less shock loading into the system. This is my opinion so of course is irrefutable fact. Except when I get all sketched and scream "TENSION"