MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: mungeclimber on January 19, 2025, 06:27:05 PM
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WARNING - There is a substantive sized loose cobble on this line as of 1-19-25. It is currently marked with a clearly visible white X in chalk (prior party). Partially pulling outward or down flexes it in a way that makes me think the whole cobble will cut loose, and there is a small key stone on the right side of the cobble that is sure to pop out. The cobble is at least 9" x 9".
Today was a busy holiday weekend with many people below on the hiking trail. I didn't feel ok with trying to time it knowing that peeling it off meant it could fly down over the top of two sections of trail (and one I couldn't see).
If anyone does/can remove it, please let me know. I may be able to get to it in the coming weeks if not.
For reference...
https://www.mountainproject.com/route/120107536/where-the-sun-shines
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I've been trying to put a party together to rebolt at the Flumes for six months. Maybe we could clean it up at the same time?
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Who is doing the rebolting and what are you planning on working on?
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1/2x7.5 SS?
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1/2x7.5 SS?
How about using one of those to keep the 9"x9" cobble on the wall?
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OK. I guess there's not going to be a reply.
If you are planning on doing any work please have someone supervising that is experienced with rebolting at Pinnacles. Maybe Brad is planning on helping you. As you know he is a good teacher for bolting and also rebolting. Another good person who has connections to Touchstone would be Jim Thornberg.
Most of the time bolt replacement is fairly straight forward but occasionally rebolting at Pinnacles can throw some major curve balls that require making some decisions that are a different than just bolting a new route.
Something to keep in mind is that the Flumes is the West Side's most trafficked climbing area. Any decisions or work you do will affect many other climber's experience and safety.
Like I said maybe you have a solid plan already with Brad which would be great. I would offer up my services but I am too swamped with work right now. I have not replaced as many bolts at Pinnacles as Clint, Bruce, John Cook or Brad but I think I am in the neighborhood of 100. (John Cook probably knows my exact count) feel free to DM me or let's talk about rebolting here on the forum in the rebolting thread.
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Noal, you have replaced far more bolts than I have.
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Noal, your post is more insightful than you might have known.
Natalie reached out to me about bolt conditions at The Flumes and about maybe doing some rebolting there.
Yes, The Flumes is very heavily used and it's my perception that bolts have failed there because holes are literally failing in some cases. The Flumes are, I think, a sport climbing area in the true sense of that word (closely bolted face climbs so that climbers can focus on the sport and not the danger). There's enough falling and hang-dogging there that bolts are getting used a lot more and a lot more heavily than in most other areas of the park.
All of this is perfectly normal for any sport climbing location, but in my mind it's raising the issue of whether mechanical bolts can work in places like The Flumes for decades or not (most routes there are around 30 years old). Mechanical bolts can come loose and, I think, they can move within a hole when weighted heavily. Enough micro-movement starts to wear tiny, infinitesimal bits of rock and after a hell of a lot of use, the hole itself can become suspect. That's happened in some cases at The Flumes.
I'd suggested to Natalie that maybe glue-ins were a better solution for the long-term at places like The Flumes. I also told her that I know almost nothing about glue-in bolts.
So we've both reached out to Jim Thornberg on this issue. Asking if he could help with some re-bolting at The Flumes.
I had hoped to "recruit" a group of experienced Pinnacles bolt-hole drillers for a weekend day or two and have Jim and any other person he could recruit who has lots of experience with glue-ins help too (you were on the list of possible recruits, by the way).
So two things have happened since. First, Jim thought that he'd rather teach us to properly place glue-ins and plans on doing an instructional day or two this coming spring (in the north Bay Area though). I hope to attend and I know Natalie plans on being there too.
Second, I've found it hard to focus on this project as my efforts at Pinnacles this season have been resolutely on two other things: First, I've been trying to do some pure cragging there so as to keep my interest in Pinnacles climbing as active as it has been. I've had some tremendously enjoyable days of just pure climbing as a result. Second, as always, this guidebook thing tends to dominate the time I have down there (a self-imposed duty if there ever was one).
I haven't paid much attention to the rebolting issues at The Flumes as a result.
Note how most of the names and issues I've described in this post were also in your post?
And by the way, Steve and I have finished assembling the guidebook up to the end of the High Peaks (coincidentally that's route number 1000). Even though it's slow, we are making progress.
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Thanks for the reply Brad. That plan sounds perfect.
Natalie, hope you have a successful rebolting effort.
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I have not replaced as many bolts at Pinnacles as Clint, Bruce, John Cook or Brad but I think I am in the neighborhood of 100. (John Cook probably knows my exact count)
I knew John when he was closer to normal. We would go climb at Pinnacles, have a great time clipping bolts on established routes or placing them ourselves on new routes. Always planning for our next trip out. One day as we were approaching an obscure area, I realized he was no longer hiking near me. I called but no answer, so I back-tracked, scoping side trails that might lead to interesting rocks or private places to answer Mother Nature. I was perplexed because he was not one to be easily distracted, although the flies always liked him and occasionally would swarm around his head forming a small cloud.
Soon I was in an area I had not been in before. There are many of these rifts and hollows, micro meadows and corridors that have been infrequently visited by humans since the tedious events causing these surreptitiously formed deviations, to current times. This little grove was hidden well and I could hear voices that led me around a few final corners and chaparral stands to finally peer into it. There were 3 individuals and one was obviously John and he was laying down as if asleep or dead. The other two crouched over him were Clint and Bruce. Bruce was chanting in a language I couldn't make out and Clint was using an ancient bow with its string wrapped around a shaft, carved with many symbols to drill into the side of John's forehead. I was momentarily rendered speechless and immobile from shock. After that moment I started to scream at the slightly bloody murderers. Bruce quickly opened a leather pouch and dropped what looked like a seed or pill into the hole that Clint had made and then dosed it with a powder from the another similar pouch before both disappeared into the underbrush.
Rushing to John's side I felt for a pulse and before a few seconds passed he groaned and passed a very long winded gas, which was typical for him after dozing. Sitting up suddenly, he stared into my eyes and said "I'm going to start rebolting old routes".
Brushing away the powder, there was only a slight mark on the side of his forehead.
The amount of rebolting that John did after that was phenomenal and unusual and terrific for the climbing community. Why anyone would spend such an exorbitant ton of their time doing this beats me. I was unable to ever get a straight explanation from Bruce over what I had seen. Dodging every inquiry, he suggests that I likely suffered from heat stroke and was hallucinating from extreme dehydration or that my chalk bag was tainted with magic mushrooms and on and on. The problem was that the altering event that caused my climbing partner to start rebolting routes had happened on a cold spring equinox day and I had forgotten my chalk bag.
Noal, you may want to check your hairline next to your forehead for a small scar. Natalie, you too.
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I was momentarily rendered speechless and immobile from shock....
^^^
Highly unlikely that that could ever occur.
The rest sounds quite plausible though.
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Clink!!!! buahahhhahaha
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Noal, you may want to check your hairline next to your forehead for a small scar
That's funny. If this story was true I would definitely not have that scar. I could never be anywhere close to John's dedication and passion for replacing bolts. He really raised the bar.
Here's one of my favorite John re bolting stories. When I first started working on routes with him he gave me a drill bit that came from the ASCA. We were working on something one day and he said to me "according to my records you have 23.75 holes drilled with that bit" I told him "nope. Only 8. This a new bit and I was working on putting up a new route with it last weekend" I could tell he was kind of disturbed. Turned out that he had the ASCA bit labeled and only used it for re bolting. I just figured hey thanks for the free drill bit I'll use it and sometimes I will use my own.
This story only scratches the surface of the Boltinator.
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Hey J.C., nice to see you posting. Although damn, I hate seeing stories like this.
I guess that I’m luckier than the climber in the story. I did a few days at Josh and then took a 6 foot fall onto a ledge yesterday landing with all my weight on my right heel. It's pretty badly bruised and very sore. I don't think I'll be climbing for a few days. I'm walking, but with a hiking pole as a cane. Vicki and I have decided to head home since hanging out here and or near the grand enchantment trail will do nothing but frustrate me. I think/hope that I just need 10 days or two weeks to heal fully.
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I suspect that my fall and the Pinnacles climber’s fall probably share a cause? We all risk it. In mine, a larger than three inch section of patina broke off under body weight. Pretty surprising. Josh isn’t Pinnacles after all.
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Something to keep in mind is that the Flumes is the West Side's most trafficked climbing area. Any decisions or work you do will affect many other climber's experience and safety.
When it comes to areas like Flumes, where the climbing community’s safety and the preservation of the rock are at stake, it’s crucial that only the most experienced climbers handle the re-bolting process. Apprenticeship can be a valuable way to pass on knowledge, but the stakes are too high in such popular and sensitive areas for anyone without significant experience to be involved in tasks that could alter the environment or compromise safety.
Experienced re-bolters have the necessary judgment, skill, and respect for the rock, ensuring the work is done properly, safely, and with minimal impact. It also helps preserve the integrity of the area, ensuring future climbers can enjoy climbing there.
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OK. I guess there's not going to be a reply.
Apologies for the radio silence. I didn't mean to go quiet, just had a busy few days. In any case, Brad has pretty much laid out the plan. That said, I can't seem to manage to find a day were we both have a large enough group of volunteers and the weather is co-operating.
When it comes to areas like Flumes, where the climbing community’s safety and the preservation of the rock are at stake, it’s crucial that only the most experienced climbers handle the re-bolting process. Apprenticeship can be a valuable way to pass on knowledge, but the stakes are too high in such popular and sensitive areas for anyone without significant experience to be involved in tasks that could alter the environment or compromise safety.
Experienced re-bolters have the necessary judgment, skill, and respect for the rock, ensuring the work is done properly, safely, and with minimal impact. It also helps preserve the integrity of the area, ensuring future climbers can enjoy climbing there.
You're welcome to volunteer. That said, I feel like actually getting it done rather than expecting some arbitrary standard of experience is preferable. I know I don't have enough experience to just go do it myself, so I haven't. I'm expecting to be supervised for sure, but we're having enough trouble finding willing hands as it is.
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John definitely took rebolting to a new level.
Whatever you do, don't bolt like I do.
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That said, I can't seem to manage to find a day were we both have a large enough group of volunteers and the weather is co-operating
No problem on the late reply. I don't think you need a large group of volunteers. It's a nice idea to have a bolting party/event but there will be a lot of people with nothing to do unless they are good at hand drilling. If you are hand drilling long half inch holes it will be very slow and not easy.
Maybe before you start the actual re bolting you can rap down each route and have someone like Brad help assess which bolts need immediate attention. Take some notes and return on another day and knock those out first.
Recently when I replaced the bolts on Power Tools and Mission Impossible I was surprised to find that the majority of the bolts ,all Rawl 5 piece carbon steel were actually in very good condition. Pinnacles is an arid climate so unless the bolts are directly in a water chute even non stainless lasts a long time. Very few of the bolts had any internal rust. Bolts may look "bad" but sometimes it is just surface oxidation and looks are deceiving. Just because some bolts don't look like new stainless does not mean they are necessarily bad and need replacement.
Replacing all of the bolts for every Flumes route is not something that is going to happen in one weekend. It will take multiple trips. Also the idea of replacing every bolt with glue ins may seem like a good idea but one downside is they are a lot more permanent than 5 piece bolts. If someone needs to remove them one day it will not be easy. Maybe some of these holes that Brad says are failing could be upgraded to 1/2" long 5 piece bolts like what has been done on the Monolith
You're welcome to volunteer. That said, I feel like actually getting it done rather than expecting some arbitrary standard of experience is preferable. I know I don't have enough experience to just go do it myself, so I haven't. I'm expecting to be supervised for sure, but we're having enough trouble finding willing hands as it is.
You need volunteers that have experience and skills in removing bolts, hand drilling, and installing new bolts in Pinnacles rock. Like I stated above I think a rebolting event is a nice idea but the work will take longer than one day. I really like that you feel a drive and sense of immediacy to replace the bolts.
Once you learn how to replace bolts properly it is something that you can go out and do on your own or with a partner. This is a lot easier to schedule. I did the work on Power Tools and Mission Impossible by myself over the course of an entire summer.
Long story short rebolting is hard work. It is uncomfortable hanging in a harness hand drilling. Much like putting up new routes there is very little climbing going on. ( I do treat myself sometimes and traxion back up to the anchor) I wish you success.
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Well said Noal!
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Maybe before you start the actual re bolting you can rap down each route and have someone like Brad help assess which bolts need immediate attention. Take some notes and return on another day and knock those out first.
^^^
I would be interested in what bolts need to be replaced.
My first climb at Pinnacles NP was at the Flumes, and I have hung and caught several falls there. So checking out crux bolts would be a good use of time. Especially since other than the Citadel this area likely sees the highest traffic of beginners on the West Side.
On the other hand lots of these bolts are less than 30 years old. Some 30 year old carbon steel bolts outside of water streaks have been tested and found to be nearly just as strong as original specs.
I obviously have no say and 0 experience in the field so take this with all the grains of salt you would like.
If a group of experienced rebolters wants to spend their time putting in new hardware I am all for it. I have very high respect for those that could be doing rad climbing in a gorgeous place but instead spend their time, sweat, and experience making the place safer and more enjoyable for others.
I feel like actually getting it done rather than expecting some arbitrary standard of experience is preferable.
As someone who has put in several shit bolts that needed to be removed, even while under watch of climbing mentors, I disagree with this statement. Like many have stated this area is highly trafficked, especially by those that don't inspect, just clip and go. Just "getting it done" seems like a dangerous attitude to approach rebolting with.
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I do agree with those stating that there needs to be a certain level of experience when replacing bolts. Most people botch the first couple of bolts, there is a tendency to wander a bit the first couple of times. You really need to lock in, there is a certain level of pain and focus required. Maybe bolters are just want to be masochists.