MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: NOAL on March 31, 2025, 09:25:10 AM
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Rebolting Condor Condiment has been on my to do list for quite a while. About a year or so ago Marco said he would be up for working on it with me. My busy work schedule was back to normal and Marco was recovering from a finger injury so we both had time to start on the project the first weekend in March. About 1/2 of the bolts for the route are on the first pitch. There are 11 total. Our goal for the first day of work was to replace all 11 and we were successful! We were able to reuse about half of the holes. In some cases it was not possible to reuse the original hole due to it being drilled at an extreme angle, deep cratering behind the hanger, or chunks of rock that came out when the bolt was extracted.
This weekend the weather and our schedules allowed us to return to finish the rest of the route. Our friend Ryan joined us on this trip. Ryan has worked on some new routes with Marco but this was his first time rebolting. Having a third person really enabled us to get the all of the work done on Saturday. I am super grateful for all of Ryan's and Marco's hard work. These two guys have a super positive attitude and are hard workers who do excellent work. We all worked hard ,had a lot of laughs, and even got to do some climbing. It was a really enjoyable and fun day!
Here's some photos from Saturday. There's a few in there that I took but most of them were taken by Ryan.
Here we are at the base of the route. We probably got started a little before 10.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54421243232_5f1e9abe11_c.jpg)
Marco starting the first pitch
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422479805_e4d8f14711_c.jpg)
Marco starting 2nd pitch
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422291539_a04eb50304_c.jpg)
Marco drilling new anchor bolt for Pitch 2
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422349633_3036957601_c.jpg)
Noal drilling first bolt on pitch 2 while Marco is drilling new anchor bolt. Note the backpack. The backpack was heavy and it was comical to watch whoever got the chore to climb with it on. Like having a midget on your back. I had it for the first two pitches and then Marco had the pleasure of having it for the next two. :lol:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422292109_6b4742f355_c.jpg)
Marco and Noal replacing the three bolts on the top of Pitch two. We were able to reuse two of the holes for these bolts. There's a lot of talk online how the rock quality on this route is not good. IMO this section is the only part of the route that has poor rock quality but it is protected really well and the bolts are in good rock. If you are a Pinnacles climber most of the holds on every pitch that you need to use are pretty obvious. All three of us were able to climb the route without pulling anything off. O.K. that's not entirely true I had a foot hold crumble in the loose section becasue I was wearing the pack and weighed about 300lbs.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422350033_a20ddde1c2_c.jpg)
Here's Ryan drilling the bolt before the 3rd pitch anchor
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422350208_01d17b7c7e_c.jpg)
We finished up work and all made it to the summit just as the sun disappeared and hiked back to the West Side parking in the dark.
Here's some shots of the old hardware that was removed and a one of the button heads before it got pulled. The button heads are the really short compression bolts. They came out super easy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422477385_413c2d8799_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54422346143_f02eb80c5c_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54421242002_fd56ffcc28_c.jpg)
Much thanks to John Cook for letting us borrow some of his gear and fronting us some bolts to get pitch 1 done while we were waiting for an ASCA resupply. And of course BIG thanks to Greg Barnes at ASCA for sending us hardware, patch material, drill bits etc. Greg rules. If you enjoy having the new bolts on the route make a donation to the ASCA if you can.
Thanks Marco and Ryan! I really enjoyed climbing and working with both of you! Hope to have more fun adventures with you in the future.
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Nice work. Time to repeat it again for sure.
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Re-bolting the entire four pitch route in two days!!??
Hard-core.
Those short, 5/16th inch buttonheads were scary the minute they were put in.
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Re-bolting the entire four pitch route in two days!!??
Having Ryan along was super helpful. We were able to send him ahead to drill a new anchor bolt and fix a line while we worked on pitch two. Then we sent him to the summit while we were working on pitch 3, 4/5.
Would love to hear from Waldo any recollections of how they put up the route seeing they were also a party of three. We were wondering how many days they worked on it and at what point did they just push it to the top. I'm guessing 3-4 days. 2 days on the first pitch and then one or two for the rest of the route.
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Thank you! I once tested one of those old bolts while breaking a foothold.
Waldo said it was best to not lean out while clipped to the anchors.
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Did you weigh close to 300lbs?
Waldo's advice was most likely true. The button heads on the route could of come out with an outward pull of body weight.
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EDIT: previously this was a post about retrobolting in the spirit of April fools, due to not wanting to risk the safety of the 12 older men reading this I have since removed the comment
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^^^
Are you aware that some innocent people read this forum and do not know (yet) that you are a punk who loves to jest?
Besides, Noal wouldn't have just "voted" no. He would have beaten you with a hammer (thick skull - possibly no effect).
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Edit:
deleted due to stick clip up butt.
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It's bad enough having to drag that big crowbar up the climb. Imagine having to have a big stick clip. Maybe a Via Ferrata style cable across the 4th pitch traverse could be good. Could do a Via Ferrata with steps cut out and a handrail up the bottom three pitches like the trail......
This made me wince.
About 10 years ago, Bill and Joel and I did a two-plus hour hike up Queen Mountain in Joshua Tree. We intended to and did climb two highly recommended climbs there, both three star routes.
Hiking back out we passed a formation that we had not seen on the way in. It had a steep wall up high that was grid-bolted and, to get to the base of that wall, someone had cut literal steps in the rock (you could see that they'd used a drill to repeatedly put holes right next to each other before "chunking" the rock out). The steps led right up to the base of the relatively new, hard, sport routes. None of this was in the book. Less than 50 feet away was an obvious campsite along with a fire ring and, hard to believe this even as I type it, charred Joshua Tree remnants.
Some months later the Park Service learned of all this. It was my perception that they were not happy with any of it.
The climbing ranger there, Bernadette, publicized the Park Service's displeasure to the climbing community on several internet sites, including Supertopo. Among her more formal comments was this less formal, biting gem making fun of the "need" for steps (paraphrased to my best memory):
"And as to the steps cut in the rock - I walked up the slab next to the steps without using them all while in my ranger uniform and hiking shoes."
Actually, if she posted on Supertopo, this might have been more like 15 years ago.
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I remember seeing that on Supertopo.
I have to say the contrast in traffic on the trail both Saturdays was way different than when I originally climbed this route in 2011 when Pinnacles was a National Monument. I think then there were maybe less than a dozen people who passed by on the trail. Sound carries very easily in this area so you can pretty much talk in a normal volume and someone standing all the way over by the Sponge can hear you.
I lead the second pitch that day. There were two hikers over by the Sponge watching me when I was about mid pitch. One guy was saying to his friend stuff like" You see that guy...if he falls from there he is gonna die. What a dumb ass." The two hikers continued standing there watching talking shit. Eventually, my climbing partner couldn't take it anymore and shouted out "WE CAN HEAR EVERY WORD YOU ARE SAYING!!!" I guess he was upset. I kind of thought the whole thing was funny.
This Saturday we had a lot of people waving , taking photos ,and few asking questions like what are you doing? The funniest one was a guy trying to impress his lady friends saying " I can do that if the holds are really big" I told him there's lots of big holds and to come on over and I'd drop a rope down for him. He changed his mind.
Point is if you pick your nose on this route some hiker is most likely gonna see you do it .So be on your best behavior and definitely don't eat the booger because if you do you'll end up going viral on Instagram or TikTok.
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Maybe a Via Ferrata style cable across the 4th pitch traverse could be good. Could do a Via Ferrata with steps cut out and a handrail up the bottom three pitches like the trail......
I'm all for it. This would be the time to use a rebolting get together. Everyone hand drilling 2 1/2" holes every two feet so we can get the rebar in ethically.
I thought there was only about a dozen old dudes who actually take the time to read this stuff.
That seems like a generous estimate.
Sound carries very easily in this area so you can pretty much talk in a normal volume and someone standing all the way over by the Sponge can hear you.
...
"You see that guy...if he falls from there he is gonna die. What a dumb ass."
The best quotes come from climbing on the Monolith. Every dad of the group will then explain to his family how climbing works (it's never correct).
"The amount of chalk shows how difficult the route is", "they place those pieces of metal in the wall on their way up", and "the park supplies the ropes" are some of the top ones I've heard.
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This made me wince.
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I thought it was the stick clip. :ihih:
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Did you weigh close to 300lbs?
Notwithstanding, when leaning, I weighed about 175lbs at that time. I did carry a big chalk bag though.
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EDIT: previously this was a post about retrobolting in the spirit of April fools, due to not wanting to risk the safety of the 12 older men reading this I have since removed the comment
I could only come up with 6. Yep, 6. Did you throw some of us younger middle aged men into that category by mistake? Shame on you!
On the other hand, but not on the Hand, reading Noal's post while dexterously wielding chop sticks in the company of a vanishing tuna roll and sipping a Sapporo made me realize that some of my early bolts were placed over 40 years ago. Holy flocking sheep!
Another thing that came to mind is the lack of any first free ascents of aid lines in what seems like ages. Brad, have any established aid routes been freed at Pinns this century?
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I could only come up with 6. Yep, 6. Did you throw some of us younger middle aged men into that category by mistake? Shame on you!
I originally posted the number of 12 with myself included. I turn 50 this year and almost all the hair on my head is grey. I'm an old man and you are too.
I did carry a big chalk bag though.
Maybe it had rocks in it like Marco's backpack.
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I turn 50 this year and almost all the hair on my head is grey. I'm an old man and you are too.
My complaint was dished out tongue in cheek, and I was waiting to be called out on it by one of the dear over 60 persons who knows my own proximity to the age. I turn 60 next month and have been treating being barely on this side of that passage as glorious! Which is relatively meaningless. :)
I didn't expect the 50's to be so great and feel so young!
Maybe it had rocks in it like Marco's backpack.
Brad was shaking his head at rocks in my backpack pouch, he said something about replacing the ones I'd lost out of my head. What were Marco's rocks about?
I remember going to the climbing gym with my large chalk bag and looking at all the small chalk bags and feeling like I was wearing a sweater while all the cool kids were wearing vests. At the bottom of my bag there always seemed to be, broken fragments of Pinnacles routes.
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My complaint was dished out tongue in cheek,
Tongue in cheek is not allowed here but stick clip in old man's butt definitely is.
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You just made me involuntarily clench.
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You just made me involuntarily clench.
That makes the stick clipping harder
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This is great news. Thank you for all the hard work! I will have to take my daughter up that when she's old enough to get up there.
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This is great news. Thank you for all the hard work! I will have to take my daughter up that when she's old enough to get up there.
Well, well, well, Atomizer has a daughter. That's wonderful. May fatherhood be a tremendous joy to you too.
EDIT: and what did you name her?
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Thanks and congratulations on the baby!
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Well, well, well, Atomizer has a daughter. That's wonderful. May fatherhood be a tremendous joy to you too.
EDIT: and what did you name her?
Cora Long
backwards it is A rock
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Very nice name.
Since you're a dad now and you mentioned spelling a name backward, we might as well get you ready with the following dad joke:
Did you know that the word “nothing” is a palindrome?
Backwards, it spells "gnihton,” which means... nothing.
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Congratulations on the arrival of your daughter Atomizer!
What did the chick say to the other chicks when it saw an orange in the nest?
“Look at the orange marmalade!”
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Last Saturday at Spike's Peak, a party told us that they intended to climb Condor Condiment, but someone was rebolting it so they came over instead. That got me curious. There had to be a mudncrud'er! On Tuesday, I took a peek at the forum despite being only half qualified to read here since I'm not a dude. I enjoyed Noal's nice photo report. Then I checked out MP and Ricky Harline's comment got me conflicted. I found myself texting Mr. Mud, "I'm risk averse these days and not sure if I want to knowingly put myself on a runout route." A minute later, after seeing his response, "Understood," I made the decision, "Will go for it..." Yes, I can change my mind that fast; and yes, Mr. Mud has gotten soft.
Chris took no convincing at all. As a matter of fact, he had been interested in it for a long time. While on the drive, it started to look like we might have to rock paper scissors to determine who would win the p1 lead. But then I remembered how I got lost a week ago while jogging back to the car alone with the intention of reaching the car before Chris so I could have time to prepare some food for the drive. And that was on the return of an out and back hike! (He ended up waiting for me at the locked car.) I could very possibly get totally lost on p4 and turn the outing into an overnight epic. Nope, p4 is his! And that settles p1 since we'd be swinging leads.
Chris had the good idea to hike up Condor Gulch trail so we could access the formation hiking south on High Peaks Trail. When the formation came into full view, it matched Brad's topo perfectly. We were able to identify the two streaks. Now, it just needs to grow, or regrow, a small bent pine so it becomes visible. Once we saw the formation and the route, the approach off trail was very easy and obvious to follow. In no time, we were at the start. If in the past, people accidentally got on Condorks after missing this start, there should be no excuse in the future now that the new bolts are easy to spot.
I was glad to be wearing my precision face climbing shoes on the lower part of p1. There is still abundant moss cover that only a small selection of trustworthy crimps are visible, which requires delicate climbing, but they are all solid. I never felt desperate for bolts leading on this climb, whether it was on p1 or on p3 ("10a" variation) where I did not place any gear. I have a tracked max heart rate 107bpm (of the all day climbing) to prove.
The close proximity of bolts 7 and 8 on p1 puzzled me and I skipped one. I later saw the picture of bolt 7 posted on MP and came to understand why. The belay on top of P3 now has the original bolt (in a visibly good shape) and a new bolt, so I doubt anyone would bother placing cams for it in the future. As for the "10a" variation on p3, I feel a need to use double quotes every time I mention it. While we were on the summit of Condor Condiment, Chirs described Mr. Bolt Jangles, our next objective to me, "it's a little harder than the '10a' variation on p3, but easier than p1." I understood exactly what he meant, and later thought it was accurate.
With the new bolts and abundant solid ground on this four pitch climb that leads to a cool summit, I think the route has the right to become one of the classics at Pinnacles. Now we just need Brad to go yell at those cordors lost at Spike's Peaks that they are on the wrong crag to make Condor Crags whole.
P.S. Oh, how ungrateful of me to have forgotten to say thank you to Noal, Marco, and Ryan for the rebolting effort and ASCA for the hardware! Now, let me go find a suit to put on. [Ref (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Trump–Zelenskyy_Oval_Office_meeting)]
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Last Saturday at Spike's Peak, a party told us that they intended to climb Condor Condiment, but someone was rebolting it so they came over instead.
These guys were really understanding. At first I offered to just let them climb through but they were a party of three or four so they said they'd come back another day and climb with the new bolts. I suggested the routes at Spike's peak to them as an alternative. Later I could see you and Chris on Spike's and figured it was those guys.
Then I checked out MP and Ricky Harline's comment got me conflicted.
His post there is very misleading but I respect his opinion.(except the statement that the first pitch has climbing as hard as Lava Falls) I had not climbed the route since 2011 and my recollection was not very good. I had also read his post and was thinking "wow this thing might be worse than I recall or maybe I just had a strong head for run out climbs back then" I ended up leading it the other day because Marco's finger was still injured. The first pitch is pretty low angle. I even skipped the 4th bolt that is a little out right and still felt comfortable. Having the new bolts now takes out part of the sketch factor so hopefully people will feel a little less stressed out.
I took a peek at the forum despite being only half qualified to read here since I'm not a dude
That's good. You will avoid the dreaded stick clip. :D
The belay on top of P3 now has the original bolt (in good shape visibly) and a new bolt, so I doubt anyone would bother placing cams for it in the future.
We left the old bolt there as a historical thing and also because we were short on time. People can still throw a cam in the crack if so inclined. If anyone has an objection to the old bolt still being there I can go pull it when I have time.
P.S. Oh, how ungrateful of me to have forgotten to say thank you to Noal, Marco, and Ryan for the rebolting effort and ASCA for the hardware! Now, let me go find a suit to put on.
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed having the new hardware. It's a fun and adventurous route. It's good to know that Marco and Ryan are capable and willing to carry on doing route maintenance for the coming decades.
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Just chiming in to say thanks for the rebolting effort and great report. As mudworm mentioned, I had wanted to get on this one for quite a while & it was sure nice to be up there a week after y'all. The mixed nature of the route provides a nice adventurous feeling (Not being particularly bold, I placed 4 pieces on P2 & would have placed several on P3 had it been my lead). Four fun pitches to the top of something (one of the major formations at that), what more could one ask for?
These guys were really understanding. At first I offered to just let them climb through but they were a party of three or four so they said they'd come back another day and climb with the new bolts. I suggested the routes at Spike's peak to them as an alternative. Later I could see you and Chris on Spike's and figured it was those guys.
That crew had a blast on Spikes Peak. We chatted for a bit and they climbed (at least) Abuela Cochinita, Poached Pig (TR), Little Javelina, and Swine Flue. I'm sure they will return and be grateful for the effort that went into those shinny new bolts.
We left the old bolt there as a historical thing and also because we were short on time. People can still throw a cam in the crack if so inclined. If anyone has an objection to the old bolt still being there I can go pull it when I have time.
Seems cool as is. Sound anchor & nice reference to the history of the route.
Thanks again to Noal, Marco, and Ryan for your fine work!!
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Thanks Chris!
That crew had a blast on Spikes Peak.
I see from your post on Mt. Project that you and mudworm enjoyed the routes there too. Gavin and Brian (with help from Brad and Fletcher on a couple) really put up some nice routes there. It is truly a worthwhile destination to spend the whole day in the High Peaks. Super cool summits with across the board quality climbing. Top notch can't recommend enough.
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I see from your post on Mt. Project that you and mudworm enjoyed the routes there too. Gavin and Brian (with help from Brad and Fletcher on a couple) really put up some nice routes there. It is truly a worthwhile destination to spend the whole day in the High Peaks. Super cool summits with across the board quality climbing. Top notch can't recommend enough.
I agree to all that about Spikes Peak! Thanks, Gavin and Brian!
Swine Flue is pure fun, and so unique! And the close condor sighting at the crag is a treat.
That's good. You will avoid the dreaded stick clip. :D
But I love stick clip! Okay, I love the concept of a stick clip as I don't actually use it much. Anything to prevent me from getting injured is good. I wish the April's Fool joke was left in. It was a good one, well suited in this thread.
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I even skipped the 4th bolt that is a little out right and still felt comfortable. Having the new bolts now takes out part of the sketch factor so hopefully people will feel a little less stressed out.
I felt uncomfortable belaying for this section. My sketch factor and stress was high until Noal clipped the spooky button head.
Gavin and Brian (with help from Brad and Fletcher on a couple) really put up some nice routes there.
Every line that Gavin picks turns into a great rock climb.
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Nice thread.
Very few climbers there today, but the place was swarming with hikers and parking was completely full on the East Side by some time between 9:00 and 10:00. Spring break.
I'm glad you liked the topo, mudworm. did you notice though that the oddly angled pine was no longer there? I watched in sadness over some years as it seemed to wither and then die and finally fall off. I removed it from the most recent version of the topo.
EDIT: Hey Chris, are you the same Chris I saw a few times in one season climbing a The Smokestack a few years ago? If my memory is correct, it's nice to see that you're still frequenting the High Peaks.
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did you notice though that the oddly angled pine was no longer there? I watched in sadness over some years as it seemed to wither and then die and finally fall off. I removed it from the most recent version of the topo.
We definitely discussed the absence of the bent pine tree. I thought maybe it could have referred to the small pine shrub inside the white streak, but more likely the tree was no longer there. I'm not surprised to learn that you are on top of this detail & have already updated the topo!
EDIT: Hey Chris, are you the same Chris I saw a few times in one season climbing a The Smokestack a few years ago? If my memory is correct, it's nice to see that you're still frequenting the High Peaks.
One in the same. You are generous to call my junk show on the smokestack "climbing." If I recall correctly, I started up one route got a little spooked, traversed across the face to the other route making a hideous "Z" with the rope.
But yes - I do love visiting pinnacles, particularly mellow pinnacle-bagging in the high peaks. After condor condiment, we revisited some favorites. The N Finger register provided some evidence of consistent high peaks visitation:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AP1GczM9PiXcq_0hwp5n-PzZehkIccxzEiQGBNZWDdopub_3DXHguISo_0pCrG5xlm7uBdVJnQaYJOkpdrkojxFVkVoCdn95-ojAQxC0Q9JI__CzftshuJzL5trHJUzyMiB_vrocMWk-uJaRr6MRL4lmsuF0=w1278-h1704-s-no?authuser=1)
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did you notice though that the oddly angled pine was no longer there? I watched in sadness over some years as it seemed to wither and then die and finally fall off. I removed it from the most recent version of the topo.
Did I?
Now, it just needs to grow, or regrow, a small bent pine so it becomes visible.
If my hint of the missing small bent pine was too subtle, I wonder if my grade adjustment suggestion was also too subtle.
While we were on the summit of Condor Condiment, Chirs described Mr. Bolt Jangles, our next objective to me, "it's a little harder than the '10a' variation on p3, but easier than p1." I understood exactly what he meant, and later thought it was accurate.
I know upgrading/downgrading is always a triggering discussion. Here is my candid opinion: P1 is 5.9. p3 straight up (through the bolt) is 5.8. It's the obvious way to go, so I don't even see the point of having the left 5.7R variation.
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Nope, ZOOOM, right over my aged head, mudworm. I missed it but it is now quite obvious. In my defense, I read it on a phone and often such reading doesn't register with me as well?
Yep, that was a tenacious tree.
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Nice thread.
Very few climbers there today, but the place was swarming with hikers and parking was completely full on the East Side by some time between 9:00 and 10:00. Spring break.
Elaine and I were going to be down for two days, but I got sick. Now we'll have to find a make up date.
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P1 is 5.9. p3 straight up (through the bolt) is 5.8. It's the obvious way to go, so I don't even see the point of having the left 5.7R variation.
I could certainly see P1 being 5.9, I'm very much out of shape though (well more of a round shape). Ryan and Noal also expressed that the "10a" was easier than that.
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Now's the time to change the rating in the book if it's gonna be done.
Noal, Marco, Ryan and mudworm: trying to be scrupulously accurate but slightly on the conservative side, 5.8 or 5.9?
Of course if the first pitch is 5.9, then the route's rating changes to 5.9 too.
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5.8
If anything maybe change the rating of the 10a variation.
The first pitch crux move I believe is at the 3rd bolt. There is a slight bulge there. My first instinct was to go straight over the bulge but if you trend slightly right it is 5.8. I followed this with a heavy backpack last time and still thought it was 5.8.
The rest of the climbing up to the last bolt is 5.6-5.7. The climbing after that is low 5th on good rock. There is not any 5.9 climbing anywhere else on the route.
If you look at the suggested ratings on Mt. Project you get an idea how the general climbing public feels there are two votes for 5.9 one being Ricky Harline...... Like I said up thread I respect his right to his opinion but he comments that he feels the easy top portion of the first pitch is solid 5.6/5.7 climbing.
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If anything maybe change the rating of the 10a variation.
I think there were comments above about this, but to help me not misunderstand those, change the 10a variation to what rating?
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Change 10a to 5.8.
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The variation would be 5.8? (the variation third pitch, going past the bolts.)
That's a big move (two grades). Would you be OK if I changed it to 5.9 instead??
And based on your comments I will leave the "main" route 5.8 (unless anyone else of you who have done it recently feels strongly about not - but I think Noal's comments are pretty convincing).
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And on a related subject, but way off the topic of the original thread, I recently led The Unmentionable and there's no way that it is 5.5. I changed it to 5.6 for the new book.
David and Russ were climbing at Pipsqueak and found Rightfoot significantly harder than Scragglepuss and wouldn't lead it because of the very high first bolt. I'd been wondering about this route for a while and changed Rightfoot from 5.7 to 5.8 R.
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The variation would be 5.8? (the variation third pitch, going past the bolts.)
Yes. Maybe someone else will chime in but I remember climbing this back in 2011 and thinking "O.K. here comes the 10a part" and getting to anchor and thinking "did I climb around it or something?" This last time I jugged the pitch. So I am basing that on what I remember from almost 15 years ago. Seems like everyone else is having the same sort of experience.
Here's a quote from mudworm about what Chris thought about pitch three which I think is spot on
Chirs described Mr. Bolt Jangles, our next objective to me, "it's a little harder than the '10a' variation on p3, but easier than p1." I understood exactly what he meant, and later thought it was accurate.
So basically he is saying pitch three is 5.8 and mudworm agrees.
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I'll cast my vote. If I'm outvoted, so be it. I'm enjoying discussions like this.
5.9 for P1. If you look at the MP votes -- I did a grade vote to tick match -- the majority of the 5.8 graders there are confirmed follow for P1. This is not to downplay other people's follow experience or their opinion; it just aligns with my personal philosophy. I use KAYA app extensively to track my 5.11+ and above climbing at the Movement gyms. I never downgrade a leadable climb even if I danced up it on TR because I believe to most people, whether some admit to it or not, there is a difference in their experience between follow/TR and lead. (I would also never rate a climb unless I've climbed it successfully, which does put me in the minority.) There is a vote on MP from Chris. I am confident to say that his grade vote was more about adding PG; less about grade itself. Don't worry. I'm sure he'll correct me if I was wrong. I did not find the route PG, esp. if people go for it with a 5.9 climb in expectation. Another data point: at the end of the same day, I onsighted Burtons Below (5.9) in my approach shoes and felt solid. I would not want to lead P1 in my approach shoes. Well, NOAL rated that route 5.8 on MP. He sure is consistent! :D
5.9 for P3 (through the bolt). I wanted to say 5.8, but downgrading by two grades might be more than what most people can stomach. I chuckle at myself for saying this because I said it as if there are more than 6 people who cared. Apparently, everyone agreed that it's no harder than P1, so that's that! Would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3? I really don't see anyone who has climbed up from P1 in their right mind would choose to go that way, especially now with a bomber bolt above.
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I onsighted Burtons Below (5.9) in my approach shoes and felt solid
I have climbed this with a sprained ankle as it started to rain and was slightly damp. I have also led it at least a half dozen times.
I know a certain someone advocated hard to have this bumped up to 5.9 but it's 5.8.
I chuckle at myself for saying this because I said it as if there are more than 6 people who cared
This made me chuckle too.
Would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3?
Agreed. There are many things about this route that are kind of mysterious. Would love to hear from Waldo what the story is. Did they climb that way first and then come back another day and climbed up the 10a version. The 5.7 R route would make sense if you were short on time and trying to get to the summit.
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Would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3? I really don't see anyone who has climbed up from P1 in their right mind would choose to go that way, especially now with a bomber bolt above.
With the bolt being where it is, and the climbing in the same difficulty as P1, I agree that most climbers will take the direct line past the bolt rather than left into the runout. Don't think the 5.7R option should be erased, lowering the grade of the "10a" would inform the 5.8/5.9 leaders the safer path is within their abilities, and they can make their own choices about which line to pursue. I got to lead that pitch then inspect the moves again on a fixed line after placing new bolts. No way its harder than 5.9, even venturing a bit left or right from what I thought was the obvious line still felt similar difficulty as P1. And I only followed P1, so its possibly a tad easier.
...trying to be scrupulously accurate but slightly on the conservative side, 5.8 or 5.9?
5.8c
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...would you consider erasing the 5.7 variation on P3?
You only typed these words so that you could pause at work and hear me gasp from 140 miles away.
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Also, I typed my original question between tasks at work and did not mean to omit you Chris. Please feel free to chime in, although the heretic did take the time to quote you and so in a sense your opinions were stated again.
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It sounds like it really wouldn't be a sandbag to call the variation of pitch three 5.8 and that's what I'm leaning toward. Rate the whole/original route 5.8 (with its third pitch at 5.7 R) and the third pitch variation also 5.8.
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And mudworm, I called you a heretic above (which I can do because I know you have a good sense of humor). I just thought of a return to your original comment which I will put down here and then listen to you gasp from 140 miles away.
Do you remember my older daughter Katie? You know, the one you met and hung out with several times and in particular, helped with math problems in the car driving to the east side of the Sierra?
She's about to turn 30.
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5.8c
Aha. Ryan also has a sense of humor.
I think that comparing this variation pitch to the route's first pitch is really helpful.
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I have climbed this [Burtons Below] with a sprained ankle as it started to rain and was slightly damp. I have also led it at least a half dozen times.
I know a certain someone advocated hard to have this bumped up to 5.9 but it's 5.8.
I guess that sometimes there's just no way around climb ratings being highly variable and subjective.
At last year's "old mens' trip" both Steve D and Caleb R led this on-sight. Dave Harden and Joel each followed (Joel had fallen from the first crux years ago and almost decked - one of two climbers who'd had that happen).
There was a strong consensus that the route has two 5.9 sections.
Even Steve Wong and I thought "5.8+" when we originally put it up (and before I realized that 5.9+ really is the only real "plus" or "minus" rating).
Steve D comes on here now and then. I'll see if I can get him to speak for himself.
EDIT: And I'm pretty sure that holds have broken off on this at the first crux. My very faint memory from when we put it up is that this lower section was a little easier than the pull-over at the top. It certainly surprised me when people started falling off at this part of the climb.
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The truth is being revealed. I can only climb 5.8. Therefore many things become 5.8. Just as many things look 5.7 from the ground. ;)
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The truth is being revealed. I can only climb 5.8. Therefore many things become 5.8. Just as many things look 5.7 from the ground. ;)
You say this in jest, but I can't count the number of times that I've had discussions exactly like this with Tom about his routes in The Lost World (up here).
"Tom, that can't be 5.11c, I redpointed it."
"Tom, that can't be 5.11a, I on-sighted it."
His response is usually along the lines of how "everyone" thinks the route is [insert here his grade] and me not being aware of how "strong" I am. Uh-huh, right. I've actually never climbed with "everyone." But apparently he has.
(Love you Tom... even though you'll never read this.)
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Fun discussion!
To disclose my own priors, I'm always happy to yap about grades i.e. " felt hard for 5.whatever" - but I generally avoid actually re-grading (up or down) unless it feels really out-of-whack with an area.
Pitch 1. Tricky and insecure for 5.8, but could plausibly be 5.8, so I wouldn't suggest modifying the grade.
If you look at the adjectives that everyone uses to describe it, I think we are all saying the same thing:
- Among Ricky's comment on MP is the following statement: "It isn't that powerful, but parts are thin and insecure"
- Mudworm comments down thread: "I was glad to be wearing my precision face climbing shoes on the lower part of p1."
My own experience (following) was the same. The climbing felt insecure, because in places the options for hands were poor and the climbing is ALL feet, sometimes on holds that do not inspire tremendous confidence (mostly referring to friction here rather than rock quality). That said, the feet all held and the pitch is fairly low angle so support from hands isn't really needed.
I imagine the experience of leading it would feel quite different, especially pre-bolt replacement.
Pitch 3. After all the careful climbing below, this section feels like quite a relief.
P3 is steeper than P1 ... but there are freaking jugs (hands and feet) everywhere. I should say, the "10a" section has that weird flakey exoskeleton sometimes encountered at Pinnacles. But, even avoiding all the holds of this nature there were plenty of good options.
Comparing the P1 and P3 is hard. It is like comparing Walk on the Wild Side (5.8 in JT) to Gem (5.8 in JT).
But, P3 isn't nearly as demanding as other Pinnacles 10a (i.e. Terranean Tango, Stupendous Man, Dances with Warthogs) or 5.9s (Little Javelina, Jorgie's Crack, Wet Kiss). So a downward revision may be appropriate.
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...
Pitch 1. Tricky and insecure for 5.8, but could plausibly be 5.8, so I wouldn't suggest modifying the grade.
If you look at the adjectives that everyone uses to describe it, I think we are all saying the same thing:
- Among Ricky's comment on MP is the following statement: "It isn't that powerful, but parts are thin and insecure"
- Mudworm comments down thread: "I was glad to be wearing my precision face climbing shoes on the lower part of p1."
My own experience (following) was the same. The climbing felt insecure, because in places the options for hands were poor and the climbing is ALL feet, sometimes on holds that do not inspire tremendous confidence (mostly referring to friction here rather than rock quality). That said, the feet all held and the pitch is fairly low angle so support from hands isn't really needed.
I think that people who've done a lot of granite slab climbing feel easier about the pitch because, yes... this is really slabby climbing.
Kinda like Dos Equis?
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I think that people who've done a lot of granite slab climbing feel easier about the pitch because, yes... this is really slabby climbing.
Kinda like Dos Equis?
Agreed - P1 climbs like a granite slab. Close your eyes and imagine Tuolumne.
Dos Equis is an interesting comparison - but I'm not sure I agree (entirely). It's been quite a while since I climbed it - but I remember being able to find very secure stances involving stemming (vs pure slab technique).
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I guess it has been a bit since I've looked at M n C posts!
Noal - thanks for the trip report! To you, Marco, and Ryan - thanks for all your efforts rebolting! Much appreciated! I will have to finally get on Condor Condiment one of these days.
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Close your eyes and imagine Tuolumne while chewing bran flakes.
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And mudworm, I called you a heretic above (which I can do because I know you have a good sense of humor). I just thought of a return to your original comment which I will put down here and then listen to you gasp from 140 miles away.
Sorry to disappoint you that you did not get to enjoy the gasping sound from me, Brad. Call me iliterate, but I had to look up the word "heretic," and then thought to myself, "what a compliment!"
Do you remember my older daughter Katie? You know, the one you met and hung out with several times and in particular, helped with math problems in the car driving to the east side of the Sierra?
Gasp :shocked: Brad, do you really think I'm THAT old and THAT forgetful? Mind you, I became eligible only a few months ago to read a certain exclusive thread on MP that YOU people have been participating in for a long time, even though I still refuse to click open it. Over the years, I've watched (over the Internet) Katie grow to be a strong capable young lady! And Tricia too. Come to think of it, does she remember that car ride, which I pressume changed her life? As they say, "once you solve math problems, you can solve any life problems."
I'll cast my vote. If I'm outvoted, so be it. I'm enjoying discussions like this.
Look like I've been outvoted? :madmax:
That's it. Get Smart? 5.8. Mission Impossible? 5.8!
Pitch 1. Tricky and insecure for 5.8, but could plausibly be 5.8, so I wouldn't suggest modifying the grade.
So much for thinking that my climbing partner would always have my back. :rolleyes: That's it. In the future, ALL 5.8 leads are yours (and see above ^^^).
Agreed - P1 climbs like a granite slab. Close your eyes and imagine Tuolumne.
Tuolumne? I close the eyes; I squeeze them; I then contort the face to squeeze even more... Nope, nice try. I'm still in Pinnacles. Now I need shake off the piece of moss that's stuck to the sole of my shoes, and oh, there is another piece in my ear!
I will have to finally get on Condor Condiment one of these days.
How about today? It's just a short walk from your house, right? There is a heated debate on P1 of Condor Condiment right now. Don't miss the excitement, Gavin!
Oh, when you go, can you please remember to take a look to the left at that 5.7R variation? My concern is because it's probably NEVER traveled these days, there is more loose rock going that way. I can't report on its condition because it did not occur to me to even look that way when there was an obvious beefy bolt right above me with easy climbing leading up to it.
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Noal, I thank you, Marco and Ryan for undertaking the Condor Condiment rebolting project. Jack and I used the best we could find thirty-five years ago, but I’m relieved and grateful that you’ve made it a far safer climb with modern bolts. I was most worried about the top of the second pitch and the second pitch anchor. Those three buttonheads on the traverse into the belay always made me pucker. Also the two anchor bolts always seemed meek to me, given the exposure. Jack and I rappelled off them down to the gully a number of times but always backed up the anchor for the first guy down with a yellow Alien in a perfect pocket to the right. The second guy had to take his chances. That anchor for the 3rd pitch was sketch, too. We meant to back it up, but I don’t recall that we did. A Lowe nut and an Alien backed up the bolt, as I recall. Jack and I thought it was a fine adventure, but it was years before anyone else went up there. Your work should open a beautiful experience for many! Thanks again!
Waldo
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Thanks Waldo.
It was a fun project because we had to actually climb the route to do the work vs a lot of other re bolting where you just come in from the top. I think doing this gives insight somewhat to how the route was put up and what that experience may have been like or at least it made me think about it a lot.
Also the two anchor bolts always seemed meek to me, given the exposure. Jack and I rappelled off them down to the gully a number of times but always backed up the anchor for the first guy down with a yellow Alien in a perfect pocket to the right.
I was wondering if you guys rapped from here and then returned another day and then re climbed back to your high point. Before we had Ryan on board I was thinking of rapping from this anchor after the second day of work.
On the first pitch the scenario in my mind was where there were two bolts close together, the button head being the lowest and a Starr Drive wit a smash link a couple of feet above it would have been the high point for the first day. We replaced both of these bolts in their same locations which could be useful for climbers who climb the first pitch and want to bail with a single rope.
So it sounds like you guys spent quite a few days working on the route. Maybe 5 or 6 days total?
Your work should open a beautiful experience for many!
I agree! When I look at the to do list for the route on Mt. Project it is on almost 300 climber's lists. There are far less actual ticks. Hopefully having the new bolts will change some people's minds. It's a fantastic route. The pitches are varied, it's a spectacular setting where you can usually see condors, and it ends on one of if not the best summits in the whole park. There is also an adventurous kind of improbable quality to it like Feather Canyon. It's remarkable that there are three pitches of quality moderate climbing that get you to a point where you think "how do we get to the summit?" and then all the 4th class stuff after that that makes it possible. I think the route has one star currently but I really think it should get two when all of this is taken into account. Thanks for putting up such a great route! I would love to hear any other memories you have from working on it.
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...I think the route has one star currently but I really think it should get two when all of this is taken into account.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54454531519_6f3d167c83_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54454589618_df98f3605d_c.jpg)
Perhaps now the question is: "should the third pitch variation get a star?"
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One of climbing's most satisfying facets, to me, is the puzzle presented by creating a safety system out of gear. Pinnacles climbs are often devoid of this facet — not Condor Condiment. What you can find and make work is crucial, at least to your peace of mind. Holmgren was a genius at finding gear placements. I can still hear his joyful cry of "bomber!" in my dreams when he found a good one, though "bomber" is a decision rendered by Pinnacles rock gods. I recall cursing him roundly on a subsequent ascent without him when I failed to find his red Lowe nut placement on the 2nd pitch. I'm responsible for the runout on pitch one. I placed a couple of bolts and then ran it to the belay niche. It was a lot further than I thought it would be. Also, I recall placing only one bolt on pitch 4. Again, large cams can mitigate the traverse. The day was getting on and we needed to hit the top. Thanks again!
P.S. We spent at least six days working on it. I joined the project after bolt # 3, as I recall.