MudNCrud Forums
Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: joe on November 11, 2008, 12:30:48 PM
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As some of you know, I've long thought it would be a good idea to gather a group of mudders and organize an adapt a crag day at the pinns. my thought is to primarily work the trail to the hand an subsequently to the frog. as most of you know, there is a decent use trail that is often grown over and not always obvious. I think we could sell it to the powers that be as an attempt to reduce environmental damage, which of course it would.
I think the first step is too see if there are enough interested parties willing to commit to a day in the spring (with a backup date in case of inclement weather) to make this worth moving forward on.
what say you?
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I can be talked into it.
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Joe,
I'm in!
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Yes.
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yes, as long as we can bring in an airplane crop duster to spray for ticks ahead of time, otherwise, I think the Fall is the best time before it rains heavy. ;D
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Hey, my buddies a climber, pilot AND he owns his own plane. As a bonus, he likes his beer lime free!
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Commie!
Lime is American!
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DIE
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lol, awesome.
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I'm in as long as I can bring a cooler to hydrate. Maybe a plug for Dirty Jobs? Have the guy go through the PO.
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As long as F4b is going through the PO, I could be talked into this as well... As long as a date that I'm in town is picked, that is. :)
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There is no PO at the Pinns....that is a myth. Disprove:-)
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some initial correspondence:
From Joseph Denicola:
Hey Gavin
> Hope you're well. I'm thinking about trying to
> organize an adopt a crag day at the pinnacles for the spring
> to work on trail building out to the hand and subsequently
> to the frog. Who would be the best person to begin talking
> to at NPS in order to find out what the protocol would be
> and how to make it happen?
--- On Wed, 11/12/08, Gavin_Emmons@nps.gov <Gavin_Emmons@nps.gov> wrote:
> From: Gavin_Emmons@nps.gov <Gavin_Emmons@nps.gov>
> Subject: Pinnacles Adopt A Crag
> To: denicolajoe@yahoo.com
> Cc: Erik_D_Temple@nps.gov, Scott_Scherbinski@nps.gov, Denise_Louie@nps.gov, Brent_Johnson@nps.gov
> Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 9:19 AM
> Hey Joe - Thanks for the email; good to hear from you.
> (I've pasted your message below this one for the other
> folks listed on this email.) Your "adopt-a-crag"
> idea - working on climber access trails out to Frog and Hand
> - sounds great, but there are a few issues associated with
> it. First off, the Frog/Hand area is one of the initial
> climbing advisory areas subject to closure beginning in
> January. However, by late spring, I should have a sense of
> whether or not a prairie falcon pair is ocupying that
> territory and planning to nest there. A falcon pair has not
> occupied Frog/Hand in the past 2 years, but I'd like to
> make sure before coming up with a concrete plan for trail
> work in the area during the spring. The other option would
> be trying to schedule trail work there before January or
> after the spring months (though I know it can get pretty hot
> at that point). However, we should be able to figure out a
> work plan. I have CC'ed a few folks on this email that
> would be good to involve in the conversation. The first is
> Erik Temple, the trail crew leader at the park... He would
> be the first to contact in regards to setting up a plan. I
> have also included Scott Scherbinski (a condor biologist and
> fellow climber), Denise Louie (the chief of resources), and
> Brent Johnson (the park botanist)... All might have some
> interest / insights in the process. I do know that there are
> funds available for climber access trail maintenance, so
> inquire with Erik and we can go from there. Let me know when
> you're around and we'll see about a climbing day or
> two! Gavin
gavin
thanks for getting back to me so quick. I've posted a thread on masters of mud getting a feel for a core of volunteers and there is definite interest. if this becomes an access fund event, assuming we can work through potential obstacles, we could get a decent size crowd. the hand/frog trail is an obvious need, but certainly I'm open to other ideas that people may think are more pressing.
perhaps the park service could donate a group camp site or two and the volunteers could spend the night and climb the next day.
j
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nice!
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Joe,
Thanks man that just rocks.
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Personally, I enjoy the lesser traveled locations with inobvious or overgrown trails. I was out at the Hand and Frog a few weeks ago, and had an exciting adventure figuring out how to get around. I remember specifically noting how much fun it was to be "off the beaten path."
I appreciate your stewardship, I just don't believe everything needs to be improved.
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Hey Poppy,
Welcome to the party. I don't think he was proposing a paved trail, only a single clear and well thought out one. I've been out to the Hand and the Frog a number of times, never once the same. There are numerous trails leading part of the way out only to teeter into poison oak. There is a good argument for having a single trail to try and keep erosion down from numerous poorly planned (and illegal) trails.
Having said that, I get where you're coming from. I enjoy the remote aspect as well. It's too far out to ever be another Disco Wall or Monolith though.
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I realize nobody was proposing a paved trail.
Where, exactly, are the erosion problems that you mentioned? The way to the Hand is fairly obvious (frequently in a wash or seasonal watercourse), and I am not convinced any trail improvement would be necessary to mitigate climbing/hiking impacts, especially erosion.
From the Hand to the Frog may be another story. There is the steep and loose hillside south of the Snail. Presumably a formal trail would need to be completely relocated away from this area. I believe stairs would be be the only solution in that loose slope, and in my opinion, that level of improvement would be unwelcome.
A pruned path through the "Chapparal moat" surrounding the Frog would certainly make access more convenient.
That is what we are really talking about here...increasing convenience, not mitigating erosion or improving compliance with laws.
Overall, I believe the remote nature of the Hand and Frog is due to the inconvenience of the approach, not the length. Honestly, it's not that far out there....maybe not like Disco Wall, but still. Increasing the convenience will ultimately decrease the remote feel...something I value deeply.
This may be a worthwhile project, and I appreciate the willingness to hear other's opinions. I would support a minimally invasive project from the Hand to the Frog that is consistent with, and preserves, the remote nature of the area. I dont think improvements from the reservoir to the Hand are necessary.
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more correspondence:
Que pasa Joe et al? Just a quick thought, last spring we hosted a climbing event with FOP to recognize the legacy of climbing and conservation here at Pinnacles. We are planning to host a similar event this spring and it maybe a good opportunity to coordinate that event with your Adopt A Crag day. Just a thought. And if the Hand and Frog happen to be closed, other locations may be possible. Thank you for your time.
Adios,
Scoot Scherbinski
California Condor Project
Pinnacles National Monument
5000 Highway 146
Paicines, CA 95043
831-389-4486 x276.
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it might be interesting to look at the Costanoan approach these days as an example of whether or not improving an approach affects the number of visitors. It was recently 'improved' by the guys on the trail team. Has it drawn more folks out there? Has it already overgrown back?
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Lord....at the time that area "went up" I was close to Doug Martin.....what a bomb that sitch was. Still though, interesting question munge. I tend to compare a lot of concern to that location.
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Why don't we just cut all the brush down so we can take our 4wd vehicles out to the crags? >:D
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F'ueco...how about a compromise.....Mountain Bike?
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Nice work Joe. Tying in with the RockPile is great.
Maybe even give them feedback on other areas that need some TLC.
All we want is a PO/Tick free path to the Frog. That fire let the PO go crazy around there. Plus it's best to have 1 path than 10. The masses will never get out there, way too much trouble finding the trail at the back of the resv. Plus they'd be best heading out to Knuckle Ridge. That's where it's at!
Maybe we can get Mr Freestance out there and finish one of his many projects. If a red sling is faded white, does that mean it's open?
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I don't have a mountain bike. But I do drive a Subaru. How about that compromise? If my Forester can make it out there, the "trails" are good enough! :-*
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Lord....at the time that area "went up" I was close to Doug Martin.....what a bomb that sitch was. Still though, interesting question munge. I tend to compare a lot of concern to that location.
oh, let me be clear, the recent improvements are NPS sanctioned trail work just a year or so ago, not the original time of some of the routes in there.
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lol, I hear you munge and glad at that. What, no special campsite at the base and piles of cig butts?
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lol, I hear you munge and glad at that. What, no special campsite at the base and piles of cig butts?
Nah, I leave my cigs in Yosemite. :)
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I will try to reply to the objections raised to the idea.
First, I do believe having a designated trail will decrease the impact of hiking to the area. Although I've only been out to the Frog/Hand a half dozen times, I've seen significant damage because of the shwacky approach, especially when first timers don't pick up the various points where the trail diverges or even when it crosses the wash. Not everyone that goes out there has an excellent new guidebook to show them the way. In fact, even the guidebook author may need to retrace a few steps here or there to minimize trampling on new growth.
The approach from the Hand to the Frog is a mess. On a recent trip, my partner stumbled and was injured while I was opting for a 5th class traverse across the snail. I don't think stairs would at all be necessary, simply a good pruner, a few machetes, and some volunteers.
The brush surrounding the Frog is a problem both from the walk off South Side Shuffle to the base of the climbs (poison oak) and from the approach trail to the Get a Grip area. It would take little to clear that up.
While I agree that the work would increase convenience, mostly I'm talking about access. If increasing access would really make the destinations less enjoyable than perhaps we should not publicize the fact that there are climbs out there. Put up routes and keep them out of the guide book and off the web.
However, I would instead argue that increased traffic would actually improve those routes. I've climbed most of the starred routes on both formations and many of them, while quality climbs, are detracted by the loose, dirty tops of the climbs. It's been years since I did Love Line, but I am hoping more people would get on it before I repeat it, but it doesn't get any traffic despite it's 3 stars.
Do we really believe there will be lines on Tuff or Ten Percent Inspiration? And while I've never seen another party out there the limited number of times I've visited, would it be such a bad thing to share the formation with another party. Presumably, just being out there means that they might be as deranged as us.
All of that being said, I will refrain from pursuing this further if there are enough objections.
word?
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I've been going out to these two formations since 1986. I've been to them at least 20 times apiece. In all that time I have never, not once, seen any other people out there (that is, no-one who wasn't part of my group of climbers). I don't think crowding or traffic are significant issues; I don't think most Pinns climbers have the level of curiosity necessary to climb beyond Bear Gulch or the Machete/Flumes areas. A full fledged trail wouldn't make a difference. As another example, look at the High Peaks. There's a truly good quality trail there, and good climbs. And still no crowds of climbers.
I think a little maintenance would reduce the scattering of "use" trails. It would also make the hike a little easier, or to use Poppy's word, more convenient. But I just don't see a threat to solitude.
And Joe, you can use my name. Joe and I did retrace a few steps on the way out together; the "path" is as bad as I've ever seen it. And it was me that caught his foot on a shrub and did a header into brush. (Joe the scab from the laceration just came off, almost three weeks later. That one really hurt).
And all the jokes aside, there is a road there. Beyond the reservoir and up to the left turn leading up the creek some of the trail is still on the bed of the old CCC road, the one that comes from the West Side and was used in the 1930s for access to build the dam. When I first went out to this area in the 1980a, the "path" in this area was well clear of brush and followed this road from the reservoir to the turnoff.
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I have been out to the Frog more than Brad has. The approach that I, and at least one other, used for quite some time for the most part stayed to the left of the Reservoir. We had to take out some brush and place a couple of cairns but it made for a very nice approach with no steep sections. This approach wound around a bit but maintained the "outback" atmosphere. I still think it is a better approach than the one coming up from the Hand. Even though our old approach has completly grown over and a person now has to crawl through a couple of spots.
That approach starts on the access trail to Gerties then goes past the Crud and Mud formation and on out to the Frog. It comes up almost directly below Ski Jump.
The old road was a great approach. I remember one partner that would always break off branches and kind of "maintain" it. I was a bit of an environmental nut back then and it would really bug me. But, the trail just kept getting narrower. I swear one year it was more or less hikeable then the next year, no way. No amount of brush thrashing would get a person through it.
I have met a couple of parties at the Frog and the Hand over the years. Surprisingly there are still quite a few area's that allow that out there feeling. I cannot count or remember the number of times that I have been up to Marmot and not seen another party the same goes for the Yaks, Knuckle Ridge, Flat Iron, Deserted Valley, Gargoyle, Condor Gulch, Scout Peak and Freedom Dome area's.
All of these area's have at least a handful of routes that are fun. Of the above area's I think the Freedom Dome area probably gets the most traffic and it does not have the most easily climbable routes. It is right off the trail and has lot's of route potential (ssshhhh).
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Good points everyone.
I agree that there will not likely be lines of climbers at the Frog. My whole point is that part of the experience of going to the Frog is that there is no formal trail. I hate seeing pruned branches everywhere I go. It is refreshing to explore unimproved areas!
If the consensus is that only a few people go out there (with or without an improved trail), then what is the point of improving the trail?
This is not the first time this type of discussion has taken place. Leave No Trace principles addresses this very issue. Example - crossing meadows or fields - if you are a party of a few, LNT suggests that it is best to spread out and cross the meadow as individuals so as not to cause a trail. If you are many, or if there will be repeated crossings, it is best to concentrate your impacts into one trail. I contend that Frog and Hand fall under the example of a few crossing a meadow...spread out and leave minimal trace. In this case, the improved trail seems to be being considered for the convenience of a few and ultimately increases the impact.
I am not totally against making it a little easier to get from the Hand to the Frog. I would just ask that folks carefully examine their motivations and keep the "improvements" commensurate with the actual needs.
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Poppy, the problem with your 'meadow analogy' is that chaparral is impacted differently by people walking through it than is a meadow. If four people walk through brush using a separate line, there will be four separate trails that will be visible and followable by others. That's not the case in the meadow, where the grasses will spring back up shortly after you pass through.
I'd say that the way to minimize the impact is to have one trail to access the crag. It doesn't have to be a 10-foot wide highway, just something that is easy enough to follow that people will use it instead of making their own path. If the trail is positioned properly, it will last for many years and not contribute to the erosion of the topsoil.
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Mike, but what about your Subaru?
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We'll have to clear the old CCC road as well...
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We'll have to clear the old CCC road as well...
A classic road to nowhere example if I ever saw it. It's still strange to see it, but apart of the park's legacy.
Joe, I think Clint engineered a rap off to avoid the bushwack we did. He wouldn't place them fancy anchors for nothing.
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One last clarification:
I do not perceive the proposed improvements as a "threat to solitude" as Brad suggests. I have agreed that few do, or will, go out there (which in itself is somewhat my whole point).
What I do perceive the proposed improvements as, is a "threat to experiencing an unimproved area of the Pinnacles."
One can experience solitude at Flumes or the Upper Crust on any given weekday. What one cannot experience at either of these locations is a sense of adventure or exploration.
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Poppy: all valid points. Overall I think a bit of work is worthwhile, mostly to focus the wear, but also a bit for convenience ("a bit" because there's only one route at both The Hand and The Frog that I haven't done, and I may not be going out there much after I get that one done).
Another question: who are you? No-one thinks that way about Pinns anymore, and I find myself wondering whether I know you. And whether you've been climbing at Pinns for 20, 30 or 40 years. No need to answer if you don't want, but it's cool to see another person who likes Pinns for the adventure and not for the gym. I'm glad you're posting here.
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Hi Brad,
Ive only been climbing there 18 years. I think my first time there was probably with you, MJJ and DH. You and I have shared a rope on several occasions...Sports Challenge Rock at JTree, Hippopotamus at Pinnacles, last time probably at Royal's two years ago. When you saw me at Lava Falls you tried to get me to slog out to the Tugboat....bumped into you at Discovery Wall last spring....
Got it?
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I think I got it. I remember J Tree with DH and the usual crew. And I had my family along and we stayed at Mike's before it was fully done.
But if I'm right, it wasn't Hippopotamus, it was Yaks Wall and we did Liebacker's Lullaby, and other routes. And I didn't try to get you to go to the Tugboat, it was Echoes on the Balconies I was hoping you could check out the then-existing description (as someone who hadn't been there). And you were there that day on Lava Falls with your girlfriend. And you used to live in Santa Barbara.
And there is no way that was 18 years ago. That isn't possible.
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You guys are old.
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Hah! Thats the darkest, most fire-stained pot calling the kettle black. You're old too. And crotchety. And who says you've been to The Frog more than I have?
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And who says you've been to The Frog more than I have?
Nice!
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Brad, I think he was saying he'd been climbing 18 years at Pinns, not that those events happened at the beginning over those 18 years at Pinns...
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lol, sorta the way I took it too. Sheesh, we're all old.
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I was reacting more to the sheer length of time. Kinda like when I think "there is no way my daughter is 13 years old."
Speaking of which Rob, do you remember her (Katie's) very first climbing/camping trip with you and me and Vic (and Chief)? Maybe the old goat is right; we're all getting old. Even you!
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so it sounds like most people think it would be a good idea to continue to pursue this.
my initial reaction to Scott's suggestion was to keep it separate from the Rockpile event, in part so as not to steal the thunder. also if I recall correctly it was in June (potentially too hot), and the logistics of trying to coordinate multiple events.
however, if others think it best to do it the same day, I will look into that.
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I was reacting more to the sheer length of time. Kinda like when I think "there is no way my daughter is 13 years old."
Speaking of which Rob, do you remember her (Katie's) very first climbing/camping trip with you and me and Vic (and Chief)? Maybe the old goat is right; we're all getting old. Even you!
Sespe Creek, right?
I think I'm technically at 25 years of climbing. Not so bad that I only just learned how to do a calf lock move last night.
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jeeze Munge, that's a quartet century!
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le old
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Sespe Creek, right?
I think I'm technically at 25 years of climbing. Not so bad that I only just learned how to do a calf lock move last night.
25? Damn, that's a long time... I'm at 14.5 years... :)
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Hey Joe, good point to keep it separate. Plus how many suckers, I mean volunteers would we need anyways?
I still think we need to get that guy out from "Dirty Jobs". Who else is going to draw out the ticks? Rob?
I think they were going to try and host the Rockpile earlier in the year.
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I do.
Hah! Thats the darkest, most fire-stained pot calling the kettle black. You're old too. And crotchety. And who says you've been to The Frog more than I have?
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25? Damn, that's a long time... I'm at 14.5 years...
Dang, I lost 4 years. When I 1st started my partners wouldn't go to the Pinnacles. "It's all choss", they would say. Instead we hung out at Castle and did laps on the Great Roof.
So I'm with Fueco at 14.5 yrs. Including summers to.
Mr. Freestance has us all beat sorry to say. Well??
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oh man....i remember the Castle roof and doing laps to boot. Miss that place....too many boulder'ersssssssss.
I'm at 25 years as well. Man....time flies.
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Dang, I lost 4 years. When I 1st started my partners wouldn't go to the Pinnacles. "It's all choss", they would say. Instead we hung out at Castle and did laps on the Great Roof.
So I'm with Fueco at 14.5 yrs. Including summers to.
Mr. Freestance has us all beat sorry to say. Well??
I remember the "It's all choss" mantra!
All those friends are stuck climbing 5.9... Go figure! ;D
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I remember the "It's all choss" mantra!
All those friends are stuck climbing 5.9... Go figure! ;D
Just because I climb 5.9 doesn't mean I'm less of a person. ;)
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Calling a 5.12 a 5.9 doesn't make it a 5.9...
Sandbagger! :-*
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Feral says it does.
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bump