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Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: mudworm on January 04, 2021, 12:59:56 PM

Title: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on January 04, 2021, 12:59:56 PM
See attached. I have a feeling that it's been like this for years. It is one of the three bolts and one of the two rappel chains on the top of Foreplay. I personally would not rappel off of this anchor because one can easily walk over to POD and rappel there without dealing with rappelling into air space, but I also do know many climbers who do not feel comfortable walking across the top of the Monolith. I suspect with the chain link fixed like this, the rappel chains are not equalized.

What is this type called any way? I'll just call it a link even though it's different from the other smaller closed links on the same chain. I tried to browse quickly on this page: https://www.slackline.com/post/the-book-of-climbing-anchors , but did not find it included on the comprehensive page. Too outdated?

I tried to wiggle the link free by hand, but had no success. I'm sure I was not the first one to try. Would banging on the link with a tool damage the bolt in the rock, if not the hanger itself?

This chain will be constantly flipped back and forth because people like to get above the anchor to sit on the flat ground while dealing with the anchor. Even if it's freed, is there an easy way to fill up the gap so it does not gets fixed like this again?  I've seen some cement looking thingy that seals up an anchor link, and wonder if that is the best/easiest solution to this one here.

It's a minor issue as it posts no real threat, but I'm bringing it up because this is one of the more popular routes in the Pinnacles.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 01:17:58 PM
See attached. I have a feeling that it's been like this for years. It is one of the three bolts and one of the two rappel chains on the top of Foreplay. I personally would not rappel off of this anchor because one can easily walk over to POD and rappel there without dealing with rappelling into air space, but I also do know many climbers who do not feel comfortable walking across the top of the Monolith. I suspect with the chain link fixed like this, the rappel chains are not equalized.

What is this type called any way? I'll just call it a link even though it's different from the other smaller closed links on the same chain. I tried to browse quickly on this page: https://www.slackline.com/post/the-book-of-climbing-anchors , but did not find it included on the comprehensive page. Too outdated?

I tried to wiggle the link free by hand, but had no success. I'm sure I was not the first one to try. Would banging on the link with a tool damage the bolt in the rock, if not the hanger itself?

This chain will be constantly flipped back and forth because people like to get above the anchor to sit on the flat ground while dealing with the anchor. Even if it's freed, is there an easy way to fill up the gap so it does not gets fixed like this again?  I've seen some cement looking thingy that seals up an anchor link, and wonder if that is the best/easiest solution to this one here.

It's a minor issue as it posts no real threat, but I'm bringing it up because this is one of the more popular routes in the Pinnacles.


That is a smash link in a bind and ready to lever out of that hanger (very precarious/dangerous) - as clink would say - gnar bar.
Easily fixed by removing the smashlink with a hammer and chisel and then replacing the smashlink with a screwlink.
I could do it in a couple minutes.
I can't believe no one has ever tried to fix that. 
It looks like if you move the chain to the top of the smashlink and yank on it - the whole thing will come off.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on January 04, 2021, 01:27:36 PM

That is a smash link in a bind and ready to lever out of that hanger (very precarious/dangerous) - as clink would say - gnar bar.
Easily fixed by removing the smashlink with a hammer and chisel and then replacing the smashlink with a screwlink.
I could do it in a couple minutes.
I can't believe no one has ever tried to fix that. 
It looks like if you move the chain to the top of the smashlink and yank on it - the whole thing will come off.

It looked so beefy that I didn't know it could be easily opened up and removed. Maybe most people didn't know? Not sure.

I didn't yank on it because I didn't want to damage the hanger and/or the bolt in the rock, and plus, even if just freed, it will go right back to this when the next person flips the chain once climbing above the anchor. Replacing it with a screwlink would definitely solve that problem once and for all.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: F4? on January 04, 2021, 01:27:57 PM
I can fix next Sunday all going well. I have some quick link and a chisel to pry the smash links open.

Nice job leading the route! If you did......

I will never forget Jacob Miller getting the no hands rest by sliding into the scoop sideways!!
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 01:29:48 PM


The only thing holding that on is the spring action of the metal pinching the hanger flange.
The smashlink appears to already be partially "open".
The section you see "standing up" should be going through the hanger hole and laying flat.
A gentle tap or two from behind should dislodge the smashlink and then opening it with a chisel will remove it from the chain.
Put on a screwlink and tighten snugly with a wrench.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/ACtC-3cRdwuewIF44k3JLkjXDfdlRuYgU3X7Foi-krNy7YjcrWk7Q15s3FyydY8Db4SRk1xkYdivu_lPpdER-EtomCMcEPwZG14r6_WxoBAylSN9zAHRJP3wmUQZCK78B4xviUd_WUwymAcDayJWSU_phrtb=w469-h624-no?authuser=0)
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: NOAL on January 04, 2021, 01:30:48 PM
cant see really clear but it looks like there quite a bit of threads showing on that bolt.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 01:39:08 PM
cant see really clear but it looks like there quite a bit of threads showing on that bolt.

There's 8 or 9 threads showing.
That bolt may be a wedge or may be a split shaft.
Split shaft would be an easy replacement (with my puller tool).
Looks like pure shear on a horizontal surface.
No pullout forces from what I can tell.
Might want to call/check with Lance from Portlandia.
He is the pullout King  :lol:

Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 01:40:50 PM
I can fix next Sunday all going well. I have some quick link and a chisel to pry the smash links open.

Can you replace the bolt on Cataract too please?
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on January 04, 2021, 01:42:42 PM
... it looks like there quite a bit of threads showing on that bolt.
Is that good or bad? (ah... just saw JC's reply, so I guess that was just to decide the bolt type.)

I can fix next Sunday all going well. I have some quick link and a chisel to pry the smash links open.

Nice job leading the route! If you did......

I will never forget Jacob Miller getting the no hands rest by sliding into the scoop sideways!!

I enjoy leading it every time. Never made an effort to look for a no hands rest there, but even without it, the rest there is pretty good anyway.

Not sure about my weekend plan, but if you plan to fix it, thanks in advance.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: F4? on January 04, 2021, 01:50:03 PM
Cataract....No, not enough time, nor the equipment, nor the desire to take on such a project......myself.


For glue in you need the bolt, glue, specific drill bit and a drill holder that will hold the specific drill bit.

Always happy to help, but I’d rather leave the task to folks who have set glue ins before.

Foreplay is an easy fix if I am over there with James on Sunday, I might get a top rope on it.


 :D
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: NOAL on January 04, 2021, 01:53:34 PM
Kind of a funny position for the smash link to get into.

Looks like someone clipped into it with a short P.A.S. and then stood up and yanked it into that wedged position.

Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 01:55:46 PM
No, not enough time, nor the equipment, nor the desire to take on such a project......
For glue in you need the bolt, glue, specific drill bit and a drill holder that will hold the specific drill bit.
Always happy to help, but I’d rather leave the task to folks who have set glue ins before.
Foreplay is an easy fix if I am over there with James on Sunday, I might get a top rope on it.
 :D

Not asking for a glue in.
It needs One bolt to replace the broken off one.
Done.
You'd be a hero in James eyes (dad saves the day).
Otherwise it will be sitting for a long time as a reminder of what not to do with a loose hanger.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 01:57:07 PM
Kind of a funny position for the smash link to get into.
Looks like someone clipped into it with a short P.A.S. and then stood up and yanked it into that wedged position.

Dangerously close to a Darwin award.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on January 04, 2021, 02:39:26 PM
There's 8 or 9 threads showing.
You counted, by blowing up the pixels?

F4, make sure you count the threads when you work on the link. I'm sure JC will want to know.  ;D
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on January 04, 2021, 02:42:35 PM
You counted, by blowing up the pixels?

F4, make sure you count the threads when you work on the link. I'm sure JC will want to know.  ;D

I just downloaded the photo and zoomed in - then posted it sans thumbnail/link  :thumbup: :biggrin: :ihih:

I like to see 3 threads minimum showing (general construction safety guideline).
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: Brad Young on January 04, 2021, 02:42:42 PM

You counted, by blowing up the pixels?


Hey, quit being such a cynic. Those of us that are in the club EARN our OCD Overdrive.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: NOAL on January 04, 2021, 03:41:05 PM
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: F4? on January 04, 2021, 04:15:00 PM
Big ifs....yes if at the monolith this next weekend I will check them out.
If I can, I will swap out the smash links, if not, will just fix the alignment and measure for new chains.


I remember always having to fix the anchor when on that route.

Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: Gavin on February 07, 2021, 03:51:19 PM
Hey everyone, just an update on the Foreplay anchor - today I replaced the chains and smash links.

I pried off the smash links, then placed chains, quick links, and mussy hooks, equalized for a lower down the upper water streak.

The old bolts / hangers are still present and could use replacement at some point, but at least for now the chain situation is improved. Here are a couple photos of the new anchor chains with mussy hooks:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50919694848_153ab2f650_c.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50920390221_b9bc0d1e86_c.jpg)

Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on February 07, 2021, 07:31:53 PM
That looks beautiful. Thanks, Gavin! Can't wait to go back to it. The route itself is now one of my favorites. The location is a little tricky, so I'm careful about which partner(s) I do it with.

I'm guessing it was a quiet day at Pinnacles today due to Super Bowl. It was busy yesterday, with big parties hogging the popular climbs. Had Rocket in My Pocket and the Lower North Face to ourselves though (I set up TR from above).
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: Gavin on February 08, 2021, 09:43:19 AM
Actually, it was busier on Sunday than I had expected - definitely a number of groups at Tourist Trap, Discovery Wall, and Monolith. And the parking lots were full. There were more people on Saturday, but still significant amounts of visitors yesterday too.

I felt good about getting the chains replaced, and agree about the route - Foreplay is definitely fun and challenging.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: F4? on February 08, 2021, 01:56:15 PM
Thanks Gavin!

New chains and missy hooks are perfect!

High Peaks was nice and warm.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mynameismud on February 09, 2021, 08:13:50 PM
Thanks Gavin!
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on February 13, 2021, 09:52:02 PM
...then placed chains, quick links, and mussy hooks...

Question: are mussy hooks meant for top roping and lowering off? I've always built my own anchor even with the mussy available (e.g. at the top of Terranean Tango and Feed the Beast). This originated from an old habit of never letting rope run through rappel links and rings.

At this new mussy hook anchor, I found it difficult to find space to clip my own biners (on the small side) to build my own sling anchor. All the chain links are tightly connected without extra room left. I did manage to clip my biners in the hangers so I didn't have to clip into the mussy hooks themselves, but it was a bit cram'ed.  It made me wonder if it's really expected to just throw the rope into the mussy hooks and lower off. I have heard people say mussy is fine for that.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: NOAL on February 13, 2021, 10:13:50 PM
You can lower and top rope on them.  It would take a lot to wear through them.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on February 13, 2021, 10:30:35 PM
You can lower and top rope on them.  It would take a lot to wear through them.

I see. But for top roping, building my own (extended) anchor still often makes better sense because it makes the rope run smoother over the rock. But for Foreplay, I'll probably just use the mussy hooks next time. Will give that a try.

These chains and mussy are fine on this climb. But in a general sense, I wonder if there is any downside in using chain links with bigger eyeholes (is that the right word?). Either bigger links in size or skinnier in diameter.  If nothing else, one without an adjustable PAS can clip into any link for the optimal length when they need to anchor themselves. Just wondering out loud. Feel free to ignore.

P.S. Cold drizzle in the morning and gusty wind in the afternoon at the Pinns today, but seeing Mr. Mud's weather up in WA, I'm not going to complain. In case my post confuses anyone, my name is actually not Karen.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: JC w KC redux on February 14, 2021, 08:37:55 AM
Noal is correct - the hooks will last a long time but not forever. Make your checks payable to Gavin  :lol: :yesnod: :thumbup:

If it is just me and a partner doing a single lap, I clip the rope into the hooks and lower off (Alabama Hills for example). If we have a big group with a lot of people wanting a turn - then I set something up. Some of the chains have more space inside the links than others. The chain I use is not really biner friendly - you can clip the link but it usually puts the biner in somewhat of a bind. I carry at least two single length and a double length shoulder sling and just girth hitch through the chain links (if I can't clip the hangers). Lockers on the rope end, limiter knots to equalize.   

It would also be easy to swap the hangers on that route to Fixe hangers. The SMC's don't have enough room.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mynameismud on February 15, 2021, 12:15:13 AM
In case my post confuses anyone, my name is actually not Karen.
Cuias?
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mudworm on February 15, 2021, 12:20:26 PM
Cuias?
Hmmm... I was proud of my pop cultural in-ness knowing about the Karen reference, and this got me to scratch my head. Even Google does not tell me what this refers to. Just another proof of the obscurity here.
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: F4? on February 15, 2021, 03:47:40 PM
Missy hooks are perfect for the route.

It’s not getting traffic 7 days a week 366 days of the year.

They are fine.

Yesterday was warm and sunny, until the coulda moved in.

Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: NOAL on February 15, 2021, 03:55:44 PM
I think you meant 8 days a week. open 25 hours
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: mynameismud on February 15, 2021, 07:25:56 PM

Cuias es, Karen?
Title: Re: This minor anchor situation (on Foreplay)
Post by: Gavin on February 17, 2021, 07:35:38 AM
For Foreplay my intention was that climbers setting up a toprope clip into the mussy hooks and lower off. The mussy hooks came courtesy of Bruce and ASCA and are high quality - they should last for a long time, and are easy to replace by opening the quicklinks and switching out the mussy hooks.

So mudworm in this case I would say definitely use the mussy hooks and don't bother building your own anchor. If you really feel like adding your own anchor gear into the mix, just add locking carabiners (and any runners you want) into the quicklinks, and not the chain links. The quicklinks are large enough that you could just push back the mussy hooks and add in your gear directly.

But again, I don't think this is necessary - the mussy hooks are there to be used and should work well.

As JC said, at some point the hangers themselves should get replaced with Fixe too.