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Climbing and ... Climbing => Masters of Mud -- Pinnacles => Topic started by: F4? on February 12, 2007, 10:57:29 AM

Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 12, 2007, 10:57:29 AM
Well, what should qualify one to be termed a Master of Mud?



By default Mr Mud an Brad qualify...



Followed Mr Mud on a new route?

Taken a lead fall when a hold broke?

Followed Brad on an Obscure route that was fogotten on purpose?

Visit the Pinnacles more than 5 times a year?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Brad Young on February 12, 2007, 11:32:45 AM
I've done all but the third one. I think mostly you've got to love the place, and love the way climbing is done there.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: mungeclimber on February 12, 2007, 01:55:02 PM
visit regularly

participated in a least 1 fa

climb on obscure routes
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Jody Langford on February 12, 2007, 02:06:45 PM
Lived there for ten years?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 12, 2007, 02:17:31 PM
Quote
Lived there for ten years?



Hmmm, might have to think on this one.  While living in the park  and climbing routes no one does today would qualify.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Jody Langford on February 12, 2007, 02:58:37 PM
Quote from: "F4?"
Quote
Lived there for ten years?



Hmmm, might have to think on this one.  While living in the park  and climbing routes no one does today would qualify.



Free-soloing First Sister, Flip-a-Coin Chimney, and Nipple Jam...when I was nine years old, does that qualify me?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 12, 2007, 03:24:58 PM
Quote
Free-soloing First Sister, Flip-a-Coin Chimney, and Nipple Jam...when I was nine years old, does that qualify me?



Sure, just wanted to give you a hard time.  :lol:



Now if the owner of this esteemed site would get some t-shirts made up then we'd be set.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Brad Young on February 12, 2007, 06:51:48 PM
And what about honorary Masters?



I don't know Karl, for example (I think we met when you were putting up Gorillas?). But he seems like he should be at least an honorary Master - not because he's done a ton of Pinns stuff, or anything obscure, or any of the other qualifications (maybe he has, but I don't know). Instead, he should get honorary status because he came late to Pinns as a strong climber and embraced its adventure ethic, putting up decent, hard routes on lead. I've admired that for as long as I've known of him.



Steve Dawson for sure. The guy's done maybe 25 routes at Pinns (a few of which were obscurities with me). But he's worked on the computer, day by day, shoulder to shoulder, page by page assembling the book with me. His lack of Pinns experience has actually benefitted the book - occasionally he'll look at some of my text and compare it to a topo, and make me redo it because it's not clear enough for him. I know the areas almost too well, whereas he brings a climbers eye to the process, but one that isn't intimately familiar (yet) with the place.



And Jennifer Wang, who none of you know, but who has spent many, many days during the last two seasons tramping all over, learning what ticks are, following me up the most obscure stuff, all with a great sense of humor.



And, Mudworm, who's a great climber, ever so smart, but hasn't got a lot of Pinns experience. Yet she's married to the ultimate Master of Mud himself, and supports his fixation. And, all this after he broke her finger so she couldn't climb harder than he can.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: mungeclimber on February 12, 2007, 07:10:20 PM
doh, broken finger!
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 12, 2007, 07:39:14 PM
None of you are masters only me.  Me, ME it is all about ME.



DIE
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: mungeclimber on February 13, 2007, 09:49:25 AM
so swole! or swollen head, not sure which. ;)
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 13, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
Quote
None of you are masters only me. Me, ME it is all about ME.




You are the Grand Phooba (sp). The high preist of the Mud. You have the mug to prove it. Or does Ubber?



Additional qualifications:

Lead a route either on Knuckle Ridge or the Frog.

You spend more time on the West side than the east.

You've removed ticks with your teeth.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 13, 2007, 01:47:17 PM
All the above.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 13, 2007, 01:49:47 PM
Quote
I don't know Karl, for example (I think we met when you were putting up Gorillas?). But he seems like he should be at least an honorary Master - not because he's done a ton of Pinns stuff, or anything obscure, or any of the other qualifications (maybe he has, but I don't know). Instead, he should get honorary status because he came late to Pinns as a strong climber and embraced its adventure ethic, putting up decent, hard routes on lead.



Karl qualifies on the basis that he keeps putting up 11s so Mr Mud can never claim to have done all the 11s in the monument. :lol:



Can't forget Clint and Bruce.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 13, 2007, 02:32:35 PM
Quote
Karl qualifies on the basis that he keeps putting up 11s so Mr Mud can never claim to have done all the 11s in the monument.



I only put up one 11.  Is this wishfull thinking?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Brad Young on February 13, 2007, 02:33:13 PM
Almost all of the above too. I think Mr Mud and I have each led every route on Knuckle Ridge and The Outcast (Mr Mud put up half of them). And almost every one on The Frog. No ticks with my teeth, although I've pulled 12 off my pants at one halt before.



Clint and Bruce are charter members.



Another qualification: Climbed many, many days at Pinns and done nearly zero routes in Bear Gulch (this is Uber all over).
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 13, 2007, 02:38:34 PM
Quote
You've removed ticks with your teeth.



The only tick that I have had to remove (and not just brush off) was in my inner thigh, under my leg loop.  I just lowered off something on discovery wall and felt terrible pain.  I pulled my pants down and pulled the deer tick out with my nails.  Only 1/4 was still showing.



Now, if I could have pulled that out with my teeth, I would be more than a master of mud.  Come to think of it, I doubt I'd ever leave the house.



karl
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: mungeclimber on February 14, 2007, 06:47:07 AM
:shock:  :shock:  :shock:
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 14, 2007, 10:17:42 AM
Karl,

You put up Gorillas in the Moss.  Isn't that rated 12d?  Didn't you put that up;

Ground up, drilling by hand?

If that data is correct, you are personally responsible for establishing the most difficult ground up, hand drilled route at the Pins.

I still have not figured out the sequence for the moves past the bottom of the route, which is the crux for me.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 14, 2007, 12:19:24 PM
Quote from: "Mr Mud"
Karl,

You put up Gorillas in the Moss.  Isn't that rated 12d?  Didn't you put that up;

Ground up, drilling by hand?




I did put it up.  Ground up, from stance and aid, drilling by hand.



The route is at least 12d.  I climbed it two weeks ago to give my friend the beta.  He then climbed it and we think it might really be .13a.  



My buddy thought it was definitely harder than Zippity Do Da (I did it so long ago, I can't remember).  Also, harder than Ranger Bolts.  I'd have to agree that it feels harder than Ranger Bolts, but that one move (on RB) is so hard for me that I can't tell.



After my hand recovers from surgery, I'll climb all three routes and see.



P.S. -- .12d or .13a, it doesn't matter because it's not an 11.  Isn't the goal  all the 11's in the park?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 14, 2007, 12:31:46 PM
Quote from: "Mr Mud"

I still have not figured out the sequence for the moves past the bottom of the route, which is the crux for me.



About three years ago, someone broke a micro micro hold that I used for the beginning.  To do it with what is left of it or the hold below is much harder than it used to be.  I used to climb up to a mini left hand and pull hard to a small edge.



There is another way that is easier, but not as direct.  It takes several more moves, but is easier.  In the end, it doesn't really change the grade of that section.  1 hard move or 5 slightly easier moves.



Karl



P.S. Since you've climbed it, do you think I should add a bolt near the top?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 14, 2007, 01:33:01 PM
I have not climbed the route clean.  I have tried to lead it a couple of times and it kicked my ass.   I have mostly top-roped.   So with climbing bolt to bolt as a reference I think it is good as it is.  If I ever get it on lead I will most likely be to pumped to clip anything else near the top.  How it was, I was trying to figure out what I could possibly skip without hitting the ground.  I found the upper part do-able but it is sustained difficult climbing.  The start is frustratingly difficult.



I too , have came to two different starts.  I can do the difficult reach move.  Well ok, I got into that, then was unable to move out of that position after serveral try's on different days.  I also worked on a slightly easier varient that involved  more moves.  Did not get that either.  Wonder if I am trying the same sequences.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 14, 2007, 03:17:41 PM
Quote from: "Mr Mud"
If I ever get it on lead I will most likely be to pumped to clip anything else near the top.



The bolt I am talking about is on the slab at the very top.  It is only like 5.6-5.8, but a fall going to the very top would be unpleasant.





Quote from: "Mr Mud"
How it was, I was trying to figure out what I could possibly skip without hitting the ground.  I found the upper part do-able but it is sustained difficult climbing.



There is after the 5th bolt that gets you ready for the business.  As for skipping bolts, it would be scary.  Originally, I tried to send the route with only the first 5 bolts drilled.... That was insane.



I don't know if you are trying to install the draws on lead.  I read a discussion about this before on this site.  I have lead it while hanging the draws, and it's not worth it.  These days most people don't distinguish between PinkPoints and RedPoints on sport climbs.  The main reason is that most hard sport climbs are permantly equiped.  



If you want to hang draws on redpoint, I'd skip the 6th draw.  The rest are easy to hang.  As for hanging the 7th draw, just do it from the jug just over the roof.





Quote from: "Mr Mud"
The start is frustratingly difficult ... Wonder if I am trying the same sequences.

I'd be glad to talk with you about it.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Brad Young on February 14, 2007, 03:27:41 PM
Masters of Mud ALWAYS distinguish between redpoint and pinkpoint.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 14, 2007, 04:13:20 PM
When I was trying to lead it I was placing draws on lead.  I do remember a clip being very difficult.



The upper slab did not bother me.  Getting to it did.  :)



If I end up over there I will let you know.  I am just coming off the couch right now.  If I lead it I will skip the 6th.  Thank you for the beta.



Right now I am trying to loose some weight so I can give Ranger Bolts a good effort.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 14, 2007, 05:28:22 PM
Quote from: "Brad Young"
Masters of Mud ALWAYS distinguish between redpoint and pinkpoint.



So the masters of mud distinguish the difference, but what about you in reference to your guidebook?  



More specifically in terms of FA's, FFA's, and First Leads.  Having been present for several ascents of Ubermensch and Lard Butt, I doubt they have ever been lead  clean without preplaced draws.  I am not sure that they can be safely lead without them.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Brad Young on February 14, 2007, 06:09:01 PM
Interesting observation. I'm leaving most of the FA information to CC actually - he's kept careful records for 20 years. I don't know whether he knows of any redpoints of either. I'll raise the issue with him and see if it matters. About half a dozen others are going to look the FA appendix over when it's done. I'll raise the issue with them too - it's a legit point to discuss.



I stated my own style there. I know it's Mr Mud's too. To my knowledge anybody else who would think of themselves as a Master of Mud wouldn't claim a redpoint unless it really was. I can get harsh with folks who screw with climbing ethics at Pinns, but style - that doesn't affect others and it doesn't affect the rock. Other peoples style choices don't bother me a hoot.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 14, 2007, 08:44:50 PM
Quote from: "Brad Young"
To my knowledge anybody else who would think of themselves as a Master of Mud wouldn't claim a redpoint unless it really was.



I would agree.  My point was that for sport climbs, pinkpoints are considered redpoints because most hard sport routes are equiped all of the time.  Of course, the distinction is still very clear when it comes to gear and mixed gear/sport routes.



Quote
... but style - that doesn't affect others and it doesn't affect the rock. Other peoples style choices don't bother me a hoot.



Again, I agree.  As long as what other people are doing doesn't affect me or permanently change the rock and/or it's surroundings, who cares?  I was just curious how you were dealing with this issue given your views.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 15, 2007, 08:08:19 AM
We should get Mr Mud a bumper sticker "There's only 1 Mast of Mud"



Karl, it's good to have you here giving a fresh view to things. When are you able to start climbing?



For me (like my opinion means anyting) it's all about having fun and not getting killed, maybe maimed, but still alive.



I always think of the Red Rock ethics that were used in the beginning when Dreams of Turkeys and Lev 29 were established. It was all about creating something people would repeat.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 15, 2007, 08:22:34 AM
Quote from: "F4?"

We should get Mr Mud a bumper sticker "There's only 1 Mast of Mud"

How about "There can be only 1 Master of Mud"?





Quote
Karl, it's good to have you here giving a fresh view to things. When are you able to start climbing?



I just got back to it about a month ago, but it is still really painful.  I can't climb very much and  I'm not sure how long it will be before I can start to push on climbs again.  Whatever, after a year on the couch, I'll take anything.  :D
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 15, 2007, 09:26:18 AM
My understanding has always been that at the Pins the draws had to be placed on lead for it to be an FFA.  That view though is from the "core" or more high profile climbers.  Who knows what the various misfits have done.

I watched Yabo and those guys on Ranger Bolts so I know that was done placing draws on lead.  I suppose some of the FFA's were actually somewhat seiged since if a person falls they usually lower off and leave the top draw then pull the rope.  Few people actually remove that draw and replace it with a new one although there are a few nuts out there that do.  I do suppose though that most of the die hard Pins climbers are a bit nutty.

I have no idea about Ubermensch or Lard Butt.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: F4? on February 15, 2007, 12:39:03 PM
Quote
My understanding has always been that at the Pins the draws had to be placed on lead for it to be an FFA. That view though is from the "core" or more high profile climbers. Who knows what the various misfits have done.




So to be a true acent it has to be done in the 1st acent's style?



Does that mean you have to use oval's and hand tied slings? :lol:



The needs to be a "rule book" of climbing at the Pinns. Maybe at the visitor's center? The true mud masters can meet on a full moon ontop of the Monolith and decide on the "rules".  Kinda like "man rules"?
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 15, 2007, 01:52:45 PM
Quote from: "Mr Mud"
I suppose some of the FFA's were actually somewhat seiged since if a person falls they usually lower off and leave the top draw then pull the rope.



I think a lot of routes are lead while hanging draws.  However, for sport routes many people just leave the draws in and give the route other attempts that day.  They just don't think about it.



Since my first years of climbing involved a lot of climbing at Pinns, you can have seen the following:

     Imagine me eight years younger

     In Smith Rock

     Sport climbing with a helmet

     Rapping after every lead

     Stripping draws for my partner's lead or subsequent attempts
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: karl on February 15, 2007, 02:01:30 PM
Quote from: "F4?"
So to be a true acent it has to be done in the 1st acent's style?




No one wants to see me in Lycra or Paisely.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 15, 2007, 03:44:58 PM
I do not think I want to any of this cast of characters in lycra of any kind.  Well ok, the gals yes.  But other than that, NO.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: mungeclimber on February 15, 2007, 04:01:46 PM
I have worn lycra.



It was black. Can I get a free pass to avoid penalties since I was still in "DIE" black colors.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: The Big on February 15, 2007, 06:19:59 PM
No.



DIE
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Brad Young on February 15, 2007, 06:31:16 PM
Free pass? You've heard of the Chance Brothers? Slim, Fat and No.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: salad on February 21, 2007, 01:56:50 PM
uber is a master of mud...just a different kind of mud.
Title: Qualifications to be a Master of Mud?
Post by: Ubergoober on February 23, 2007, 08:58:40 AM
Quote from: "salad"
uber is a master of mud...just a different kind of mud.



You would know. Nothing like a good tossed salad. Meow.