Pinns, ethic question???

[Uncle Stinky]

A buddy and I started a new route and got a couple of bolts in before time and heat begged us to leave. The rock is chossy to very chossy.  I know that everything is ground up which we did. But is cleaning  from the top down Ok, gray area, or completely  forbidden?  Future reference, route should go next time we are up there.

[mungeclimber]

usually ground up

take your time with it, clean as you go up. mudmeister had a good way of describing how the critical holds become stablized/broken off by repeated moving up and down from bolt to bolt over time. maybe he'll chime in later after he feels better.

most of the top down approach, if there is much at all, is "pre-viewing" (i.e. binos or rapped down over the top to make sure it would go), not the cleaning or establishing of pro part.

[Uncle Stinky]

Thanks, that is what I thought, the lower part is fun and bolting is from stance. Up and down so many times I am not sure how hard it is.  but moderate for sure.  

No Country for Old Men

[mynameismud]

Generally speaking bottoms up.  

I did partially clean one from the top.  I hiked to the top of the climb and reached over the edge and scrubbed the exit moves.  I had no problem with that.

Scoping a route on rappel is a bit gray for me but I prefer that to bolting 40 feet up then bailing and leaving a line of bolts to no where.

Of course ground up, no preview, from stance is most desirable.

feel like warmed over crap today.

[Uncle Stinky]

Of course ground up, no preview, from stance is most desirable.

that is what is happening, got very hot yesterday as it is a SW facing climb.  Chossy rock but it is starting to clean up.  Having trouble finding stance for next bolt. 

Thanks and hope you feel better.

[mungeclimber]

happy hooking!

[MUCCI]

Sometimes you just got a punch it through the loose.  Or Start hooking, a hook or two above the last bolt can get you through the chossy parts.  But I agree, if you can stance the whole thing, do it.

The condors attack those who come in from above.

Looks like a nice route Stinky!  Be sure to leave a little munge for the SA team

Mucci

[mynameismud]

The combination of over the counter drugs that I am taking may not be recommended by your local pharmacist but it is making me feel somewhat better.   I can breath.

Enjoy and let us know how it goes.  Nice day.

[F4?]

Just bolt it!

Let others clean if in the future...

Best to spray about the route....4 stars and stuff like that. Post up on 10 different forums.

Oh and did you leave a red sling on the 1st bolt??

[Uncle Stinky]

no red sling on first bolt but  very out of the way,  I doubt any would stumble across the bolts.

[MUCCI]

I am "Google Earthing" that zone right now. 

[mungeclimber]

no red sling on first bolt but  very out of the way,  I doubt any would stumble across the bolts.

famous last words til we all get back into town.


when you going back?

[mynameismud]

Hey man that tree looks very familiar.

[Uncle Stinky]

My buddy has spring break next week but I go back and can't really call in a sick day yet.  Hopefully if the next couple of weeks.

[squiddo]

Generally speaking bottoms up.  

I knew there was something "off" about you.

[karl]

I agree that for Pinnacles, ground up is the way to go.  However, the reason for that ethic is to make people really think about the routes they are putting up, decide if they are worth it, and take their time to make good ones.

For that reason, if you can't find a decent vantage point to tell how good a line and the rock quality is, you should rap the thing to have a look.  How often have we thought that rock looks good or that a line could go, only to get up there and wonder why the hell someone ever bolted it?  As stewards of the crag, we have an obligation to make sure that what gets bolted is worth putting bolts in.

Just my two cents,
Karl

[mungeclimber]

As stewards of the crag, we have an obligation to make sure that what gets bolted is worth putting bolts in.

This is such an interesting principle because it is in the spirit of conserving resources, much the same as pure ground up approaches. Yet if we take both approaches to their logical extension we cannot know the quality in advance from ground up, and if we take the top down preview approach to it's logical extension, then only top down establishing makes sense.

Does anyone else see the conflict in the principles? 

[karl]

I don't think the two have to exist in conflict.  We can never know if a route is going to be amazing or if the rock will hold forever, but most of us have climbed enough to make educated guesses.

With limited resources, we need to think about the mark that we leave and the untapped potential we leave for future (stronger and possibly more visionary) climbers.  How often, do you climb a line and wonder why it avoids the obvious awesome line 5' next to the choss you are climbing? 

What I am talking about is giving the route much consideration from the ground or other vantage points, but if that doesn't give you a clear picture, then give the thing a rap and make sure it is worth it.  Also, make sure that what you think will be climbable (higher up) will be.  That way, when you start heading in a direction, your line of bolts will actually go somewhere.

Does that make sense?

--

And to be clear, I am not talking about TR'ing the thing, only taking a quick zip down and maybe swing left and right to make sure that you see what you think you see.

[F4?]

Karl, where have you been??

It's all about having the "VISION".

[mynameismud]

Karl,

You do not post much but thank you for your comments on this topic.  I definitely respect your input.  Gorillas in the Moss is a visionary climb.  steep, thin, sustained, it is an amazing accomplishment and the hardest route in the Monument established ground up with a hand drill.

I agree with what you are saying.  Look from every angle, but if push comes to shove, a quick rap without working moves will answer a lot of questions.

There are enough abandoned lines.  I do not think every line needs to be previewed, but if there is considerable doubt check it out.