Author Topic: vicious lies and slander  (Read 58187 times)

F4?

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2011, 07:27:20 AM »
How about one of the following names?
Vaporizer, where did the holds go? And after the 1st bolter
Tuburcios Torment?
I'm not worthy.

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2011, 07:41:31 AM »
Karl:

I'm desperately uncomfortable with any bolts ever going in top down at Pinns; it's just too slippery a slope. I wish they hadn't gone in that way here. But I continue to like, admire and respect you and your routes. Three reasons come immediately to mind:

1. You show immense respect for the rock;

2. You continue to show immense respect for the climbing community at Pinnacles, for it's collective views and values (even though you did something I wish you hadn't, it is clear to me that you didn't do it out of arrogance and/or disregard of others);

3. You are (and always have been to my knowledge) totally honest about what and how you've done things.

It's hard to argue with someone's approach to a climb when these three things are present.

Good luck with a redpoint. Sounds like you may have created a monster for yourselves here?

Do you have a working name for it yet? (Or did I miss that above?)

Sincerely,

Brad

I second that on all fronts. Moreover, Karl's one of the few guys pushing ground up at Pinns at the higher end of difficulties. A not so common occurrence these days.  Up at the higher end, do we end up just doing a bolt ladder and bat hooks (and essentially chisel 'useless' for free climbing 'holds/holes') to push a line "ground up" or do we discretely (yet publicly with full transparency and respect for the rock) go with top down on a few bolts?

I don't know that there is a good answer to this, but my understanding is that there are other bolts at pinns that had a similar approach at the higher end. The concern I think is for precedent setting.  Appealing to those existing bolts begs the question. And in turn others may appeal to this line, perhaps at a different rating.

Let those that climb at that difficulty give it some burns (after karl gets the redpoint :). If the climb is good, maybe it should stay. If not so good, then decide.

I'm sure others have thought about this already, but wanted to clarify what I think Brad was getting at for myself.

thoughts?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2011, 01:20:03 PM »
From what I know, which isn't much, there are only two routes at this grade where the FA party has attempted to bolt ground up.  Those two routes are Karl's new route and Belizzi's Great Spectacular.  Neither has yet to have an FFA/FFL.  Belizzi successfully bolted his route but I think part of it is a bolt ladder (I could be wrong on this).

What I like about both of these routes is the FA parties gave it an all out effort to go ground up.  I think once most people get to this grade they bolt the whole thing top down.  I do not have a problem with hard routes and actually enjoy getting on them (If for no other reason than to entertain those that can).  I suppose it could be argued that they should just run it until they can get to a hook placement but considering there has been just as much, if not more, objections to run out routes I do not really think that can be asked.  The number of people with a last name like Huber is limited and those folks do not climb at the Pins.

I like and appreciate people who push limits, it makes me want to try harder.  I think if more people used this ethic at the high end, we would have more mixed routes.  Both Hot Lava Lucy and Ranger Bolts have sections that could have been bolted on lead.  I will also say this about Karl, he rates his routes conservatively.  Gorilla's is fricken hard. 
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2011, 02:22:10 PM »
roger that.


on this point below, I'm not so sure, but otherwise appreciate what your saying.

Quote
objections to run out

in general, objecting to run outs on a ground up route (if done without bat hooks) is like objecting to sliced bread that comes directly from a bakery.  not everyone gets a slice of hot fresh bread right off the slicer, but they still know that's the way bread is made.



ok, that analogy is full of holes, but I'm hungry. Haven't eaten lunch.  mmmm, butter

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2011, 02:25:00 PM »

ok, that analogy is full of holes, but I'm hungry. Haven't eaten lunch.  mmmm, butter


Dude sometimes you absolutely crack me up.

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2011, 03:55:38 PM »
I am not here for your entertainment!!   


:)
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2011, 04:52:57 PM »
Thought crossed my mind.  On routes this hard drilling bat hook holes would definitely be considered sculpting so not an option.  So the options are; bolt what you can on lead ground up and rap bolt what you cannot, rap bolt, run it out on super hard terrain with loose junk, go home.  I suppose there is one other option.  Really hard routes become TR's. 

The selfish part of me likes the last option since it makes the possibility of me actually getting some hard climbs ticked off an option.  Not Karl, Adam, mudmittens hard, but you know, fledgling hard.

Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2011, 08:06:29 PM »
Thought crossed my mind.  On routes this hard drilling bat hook holes would definitely be considered sculpting so not an option.  So the options are; bolt what you can on lead ground up and rap bolt what you cannot, rap bolt, run it out on super hard terrain with loose junk, go home.  I suppose there is one other option.  Really hard routes become TR's. 

The selfish part of me likes the last option since it makes the possibility of me actually getting some hard climbs ticked off an option.  Not Karl, Adam, mudmittens hard, but you know, fledgling hard.



yep, succinct statement of the main 5 options i was tossing around.

a variant for lower grades is get stronger, do it ground up.

or

permit a single bathook, because no route at pinns is really that long, which also mitigates against running it out on choss.

too bad it's so hard to T-off on an aider using bat hooks, that would permit spacing the bolts out with minimal unfilled hole type drilling.

if epoxy wasn't strictly illegal in NPS then back filling a bat hook hole might be rationale for using bathooks because the visual blight concern would be gone.


mrs. munge says run it out, "because if you are going to be crazy in a crazy place, be crazy in a crazy place."  (do give her opinion more weight since she's never climbed inside of a gym? :) )


On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2011, 08:33:05 PM »
ya cannot put in a hole for a bat hook.  If it is big enough to take a hook and have the hook hold, it is a hold.  I understand, and I think Karl made the point in his post, some people disagree with rap bolting no matter what.  I understand, just do not necessarily agree.  However, it can be easy for the ethos to be applied to easier and easier routes.  Where does one draw the line?

Same can be said for drilling holes for bat hooks.  What constitutes a good enough hole for a hook or a dowel?  Aid is for the most part aid.  When freeing routes those features become useful, and the feature just might make the difference. 
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2011, 09:27:24 PM »
yeah, I did one route top down on SPH because I knew that if I copperheaded the seam to put in the bolts, it would have made the line that much easier because you could use the copperhead placement as a better side pull. In that case I topped down to preserve the free climbing and not alter the rock beyond what was needed to protect it. I also found good nut placements fore and aft of the bolts, so there was no 'bolting next to a crack' i.e. not totally a convenience route.

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

karl

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2011, 12:18:33 PM »
It is nice to see an open dialogue about this!

I know that some just flatly disapprove of our choice to install a few bolts on rap.  However, I hope they understand why we refused to drill unnecessary holes in the rock.  However, whether or not the route would stay or not, should not be in question.  I feel like Derek and I truly tried to keep with the spirit of Pinnacles tradition while keeping in mind modern ideals regarding excessive rock damage.

I hope that everyone can at least appreciate the time, money, thought, and care we took in doing this.  Derek and I have been discussing this route ever since I first asked "Mr. 13b" about if he would open it up, which was almost 4 years ago.

Karl

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2011, 05:48:45 AM »
I'm very impressed. Bolting ground up at that level at the Pinns seems like quite an experiment to me.  I see no harm in the way it has been done. If the whole thing was rap bolted it would be a different story. I am very glad that Sharma and I didn't rap bolt that thing when we top roped it back in the 90's. A big thumbs up to this community for starting and accepting this dialogue. I'm glad to be here and also check out this route... in the fall.

mynameismud

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2011, 06:47:44 AM »
I'm glad you folks are here and contributing.  I had seen the chalk marks back in the 90's where you and Sharma were TR'ing this line.  Did not know who it was back then, just heard rumors that Sharma had TR'd several lines on the Monolith but that was it. 

It looks impressive and imposing.  Did you and Sharma get the line clean on TR?

I also heard rumor that the partially bolted line to the right of Ranger Bolts had been TR'd clean?  Do you know if that is true? 
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2011, 08:11:09 AM »
Quote
partially bolted line to the right of Ranger Bolts had been TR'd clean

isn't that Karl's line?

someone needs to post pics!  :)
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Atomizer

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2011, 11:35:43 AM »
Sharma never got the line left of ranger bolts clean. We only tried it on one occasion and never really thought of going back to it. We seemed to think it wouldn't go at the time. But Mittens and I thought about trying it earlier this year.

The lines to the right of Ranger Bolts were put in by Tom Davis. Chris and Sterling Keene top roped the lines and got at least one clean. I've been told what they thought the ratings were, but I'd rather keep that secret because we have gotten permission to finish them, when were ready. Tom expressed interest in going back up them, but I think he is crazy to believe he could do them at this point. It would be special for me to finish one of his lines. Tom holds a big hold in my heart, having given me and the climbing community som much over the years. I don't know what would have happened to me if I didn't walk into Pacific Edge 17 years ago.

I had such a good season at the Pinns this year which I emerged from with a passion I have never felt for climbing before. I have got my eye on a few things and am stoked put up other new lines this fall.

Threads like this make me super thankful that rap bolting didn't take over years ago and steal the remaining good lines.

mungeclimber

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2011, 12:48:00 PM »
good history there


you guys certainly have the skills for those lines. 





still, this thread needs more pics.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2011, 02:29:31 PM »
Will be good to see someone finish those lines.  Back in the day I spent way to much time staring at them (not enough actually trying to get on them).

Tell Tom I said he is to old, fat and crusty to finish that line, and that he should just sit down, finish his burrito and enjoy the show.   :)

Oh yeah, do not forget to tell him I said

Here's to sweat in your eye

Here's to sweat in your eye

squiddo

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2011, 11:19:21 AM »
Will be good to see someone finish those lines.  Back in the day I spent way to much time staring at them (not enough actually trying to get on them).

Tell Tom I said he is to old, fat and crusty to finish that line, and that he should just sit down, finish his burrito and enjoy the show.   :)

Oh yeah, do not forget to tell him I said

Here's to sweat in your eye



Nice one ;D
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Every climb gets 3 stars from me until I climb it.
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F4?

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2011, 09:22:38 AM »
Quote
Insert Quote
Will be good to see someone finish those lines.  Back in the day I spent way to much time staring at them (not enough actually trying to get on them).

Tell Tom I said he is to old, fat and crusty to finish that line, and that he should just sit down, finish his burrito and enjoy the show.   

Oh yeah, do not forget to tell him I said

Here's to sweat in your eye


Is this the pot calling the Kettle??

I'm just saying....
I'm not worthy.

mynameismud

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Re: vicious lies and slander
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2011, 12:57:19 PM »
Is this the pot calling the Kettle??

I'm just saying....


I speak from experience?

Nah,  I will CRUSH YOU!
Here's to sweat in your eye