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Author Topic: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread  (Read 5275568 times)
mynameismud
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 01:40:56 PM »

You can get chain at Orchard, Ace Hardware or Home Depot.  Be sure to paint them since that is a fairly visible spot.  Brown DeRusto Primer works well.
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JC w KC redux
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 02:59:38 PM »

excellente.
any bad experiences with pulling rope through the smaller quicklinks?
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mungeclimber
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2012, 03:21:56 PM »

small screw gate links are bad. Even the larger ones (3/8") are only 2200lbs. The small ones I've seen are anywhere between 200lbs to 1100lbs. Quality is not job 1, with imported screw gates, so are broader margin is best.
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On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge
Brad Young
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2012, 03:24:33 PM »

I'm not sure you pull the rope through the quick links (which I call screw gates so as to be clear that we are not talking about smash links). As I've seen it done, the screw ages are used to attach the chain to the bolt hanger and the rope is threaded through the end link of the chain (would a photo help, I can take and post one?).

Usually 3/8" galvanized chain works well. And you'll want odd numbers of links (when odd numbers are connected to the bolt hanger with a screw gate, the end chain links are left vertical to the plain of the rock, allowing the best possible rope pull with the least possible friction).

And I usually use screw gates that are slightly larger than the chain.
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JC w KC redux
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2012, 03:50:14 PM »

Munge - i only use the 3/8" and i get them at Pac edge - so they are the 2200lb ones.

Brad - yes it is the screw gate and not smash link - no pic necessary. KC and I carry one apiece with us in case of an emergency bailout. i've only left them in 2 places - we installed two at the anchor for p1 on Lichen to Lead and then i left one for a belayed downclimb on top of Osiris. I carry a wrench so i can tighten them too. i also know never to try and tighten bolts. the rope pulls okay from the larger screw gates but the smaller ones look like the end of the rope might hang - i've seen that happen before.

i appreciate the info on an odd # of links for chain - never would have thought of that. most climbs i've done that have an anchor set up for rappel either have chains (w or wout smash links) or rings. exceptions so far are adam's apple and old original p1. adam's apple has those special rounded/curved hangers i asked you about many moons ago and OO has super beefy hangers.   
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mynameismud
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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2012, 05:45:27 PM »

If you use the larger chain size you can pull the rope thread the rope through the chain itself.  I only use the larger screw gates.  I think I use 1/2 (not sure they are big).  Sometimes I have to file the threads a bit to get it to go through the chain.  The only times I use the small screw gates is if there is no other options since Rob is correct they are not real strong.
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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2012, 07:46:56 PM »

If you use the larger chain size you can thread the rope through the chain itself.  I only use the larger screw gates.  I think I use 1/2 (not sure they are big).  Sometimes I have to file the threads a bit to get it to go through the chain.  The only times I use the small screw gates is if there is no other options since Rob is correct they are not real strong.

i checked my log and i did take note of one rap station that has one chain and one large screw link - it's at the top of p1 on Bullseye. No big deal since we didn't rap from there - don't know why anyone would. the ones that make me leary are the two bolt stations with only smash links or only rings or only screw links (no chains) spaced more than a few inches apart. those look to me like they probably put too much inward force on the bolts similar to what the american triangle (death triangle) generates. example - Cool Daze has only rings with about a foot between the bolts - seems like in addition to the inward force generated on the anchors the short length of rope between the bolts might be subjected to a large stress. i'm no physicist but it just seems wrong. feel free to enlighten me if anyone has more info on how anchors are supposed to be configured of if there is a good reference somewhere. i like to be as informed as possible when i'm hanging my arse or someone else's! on the line...
 



 
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mungeclimber
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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2012, 07:58:36 PM »

seems like in addition to the inward force generated on the anchors the short length of rope between the bolts might be subjected to a large stress. i'm no physicist but it just seems wrong. feel free to enlighten me if anyone has more info on how anchors are supposed to be configured of if there is a good reference somewhere. i like to be as informed as possible when i'm hanging my arse or someone else's! on the line...


As long as it's basically a static load, it wouldn't present too much of an issue. caveat, I'm not an mechanical engineer.
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On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge
JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2012, 09:28:06 PM »


As long as it's basically a static load, it wouldn't present too much of an issue. caveat, I'm not an mechanical engineer.

you and i must think alike. i always just lean back and go easy when i don't love the anchor setup. i'm always amazed when i see someone bouncing down a rappel. i was always taught to be as gentle as possible to the equipment. i thought about becoming a mech eng when i was younger but ended up getting heel-hooked by geology.
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F4?
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« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2012, 10:01:47 PM »

Webbing and a rap ring...done
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mynameismud
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« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2012, 07:59:30 AM »

It is not a problem since the angle from the bolts down is not steep.  The rope through the links creates the same angle as chains or webbing.  Part of the problem with the triangle is one how the webbing is threaded to create the rap station.  It can be done in such a way that if the webbing breaks you go to the ground.  Two if short webbing is used then the angle increases the load on the system.   There are some good threads on this on SuperTopo.  Read anything by Clint.
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F4?
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« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2012, 07:32:02 PM »

Ya talking about the American tri-angle?...love it.

2x think screw links are good if the rope is feeding right.

And I want my yellow webbing back from Heaven's gate....
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JC w KC redux
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« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2012, 11:50:09 AM »

had a nice cool morning to lead Toog's Gallery yesterday. the bolts were threaded studs with nuts. the stud size looked like substandard 1/4" hardware store junk to me - not exactly confidence inspiring. i treated the bolted sections like a solo with the exception of my trad placements. to my dismay, one of the anchor studs at the top of p1 was the same junk. one of the hangers was homemade (square angle with drilled hole - like in the guidebook pg 24 example c) with a star dryvin and i barely got my carabiner through. at least one of the hangers on p1 was the same homemade type and the hanger above the crux was too. my wc nitros wouldn't go through, but luckily i had two bd draws with keylock noses that were very tight but doable(barely). my main concern was the belay anchor at the demarcation ledge. i did not trust it. there was a tree about 10 feet away in the crack (toward alligator) so i slung it and clipped a section of rope in. i seem to remember seeing a bunch of old slings on another smaller tree too (maybe that was the traditional backup). i'd have to go back up and look again. not sure why i didn't sling that one instead. regardless, i figured if my pard took a big fall(not likely) and both the anchors blew, at least we probably wouldn't die - IF the tree held (seemed solid enough).

does anyone have an opinion on that anchor?

one other thing i noticed was a lone bolt just past the water streak after you scramble across the top of alligator chimney - in the vicinity of the "r" or "a" in Traverse on the labeled photo below - it's not on the guidebook topo - page 306. star dryvin with a "modern" shape albeit thin metal, loose hanger.

we continued further along the ledge before scrambling up unprotected - as shown on the guidebook pic - pg 305/below

all in all a fun and adventurous multi pitch but i just did not trust that anchor.

i looked for a cam placement in the crack underneath but it was crap.

i'll take a rat tail file with me next time and enlarge the holes on those hangers slightly - if that is kosher.

i can take some pics too if that would be helpful.

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mungeclimber
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« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2012, 03:30:41 PM »

fwiw, it's something of a "standard" to carry a selection of small diameter nose carabiners for the old bolts at pinns. As more and more rebolting occurs we lose the experience of "oh shit, this biner doesn't fit" and quietly panicking in mental hysteria as you realize that your entire rack of the same biner, obtained for it's consistency, is now useless. Fortunately, you quickly recover and formulate how those "alpine draws" of dynex or nylon you picked up for the West Ridge of Conness can be threaded and hitched, because you have to make do.

 Smiley
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Brad Young
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« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2012, 05:34:51 PM »

If you're interested in trying some re-bolting, I'll go re-bolt it with you next season. But not in this heat. And my Pinns season will start late this coming Autumn - not until after I'm done with the SPH fieldwork.
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JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
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my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2012, 06:16:15 PM »

If you're interested in trying some re-bolting, I'll go re-bolt it with you next season. But not in this heat. And my Pinns season will start late this coming Autumn - not until after I'm done with the SPH fieldwork.

thanks Brad,
i would definitely be interested in doing that. i want to learn all i can about fixed pro.

by the way - the weather Sat was cool enough to go into the High Peaks early. my teeth were chattering on route in a t-shirt and shorts around 9:00 and it stayed overcast til around noon - then the wind picked up big time - howling!
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Brad Young
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« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2012, 07:11:33 PM »

thanks Brad,
i would definitely be interested in doing that. i want to learn all i can about fixed pro.

by the way - the weather Sat was cool enough to go into the High Peaks early. my teeth were chattering on route in a t-shirt and shorts around 9:00 and it stayed overcast til around noon - then the wind picked up big time - howling!

Yeah, but overall it's still hot.

Yesterday we put up a new route on a 70 foot slab on perfect granite. "Footholds and Fingernails," 5.10a. We did nice crack climbs, including a gut-busting 5.10a offwidth, also on nice granite. Today more of the same.

It's just not Pinnacles season.
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JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
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Posts: 5077


my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2012, 07:16:37 PM »

fwiw, it's something of a "standard" to carry a selection of small diameter nose carabiners for the old bolts at pinns. As more and more rebolting occurs we lose the experience of "oh shit, this biner doesn't fit" and quietly panicking in mental hysteria as you realize that your entire rack of the same biner, obtained for it's consistency, is now useless. Fortunately, you quickly recover and formulate how those "alpine draws" of dynex or nylon you picked up for the West Ridge of Conness can be threaded and hitched, because you have to make do.

 Smiley

fwiw set off: better STOP...children what's that sound...everybody look what's goin' round...

thanks Munge - good humor always appreciated. i know better now. i have a few mini metolius biners on my hexes - which i don't carry on my Pinns rack anymore (another lesson learned). i've clipped quite a few old narrow hole hangers in the High Peaks but never any as tight as those on Toog's. i think the Toog's hangers were thicker than the others i've encountered previously.
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JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
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my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2012, 07:23:16 PM »

It's just not Pinnacles season.

those granite climbs sound nice.

yes...i know...but remember...i don't know anything else in CA...or know any better...just chasing the dream...


compared to hazy, hot and humid back east - every day here is paradise!
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mynameismud
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« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2012, 07:51:50 AM »

WHAT?!

It is always Pinnacles Season

It's just not Pinnacles season.
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