Author Topic: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread  (Read 5421017 times)

mynameismud

  • unworthy
  • Posts: 5972
    • Mudncrud
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #720 on: January 25, 2016, 10:33:52 PM »
Welcome to the forum and thank you for the work.
Here's to sweat in your eye

climberdude

  • Mudders
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #721 on: January 28, 2016, 05:31:51 PM »
You are welcome.  I have climbed at many places throughout the US and the world, but there is something about Pinnacles that brings me back to my favorite place.  Solid rock, pfff that's for sissies!

Bruce and Banquero, thank you for the great testing.  Does the consensus seem to be that Powers bolts with 10 mm drill seem to be the way to go for bolt replacement?  I am a big fan of Fixe wedge bolts, but understand the issues of not using them for bolt replacement since they are not easily pulled when the time is needed for replacement.  JC has been hammering on me (sorry about the pun) about Powers bolts despite the issue of spinners, so I have held off getting some Powers bolts because of this issue.  Note that I have placed and removed Fixe Triplex bolts.  These have to be my favorite, but where I placed then in the Southern Sierra I could use a power drill.  Also, it is hard to find metric SDS drills, but I see that Fixe Hardware, where I got my first ones, now has them back in stock.

Lastly, has anyone considered a bulk purchase of metric SDS drills?  I assume that ASCA does not provide drills.  I have heard that you can get bulk purchases 15-20 pieces at a fraction of the price per drill compared to the single drill price

climberdude

  • Mudders
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #722 on: January 28, 2016, 05:45:00 PM »
BTW, if someone has not tried out Dan Merrick's (Banquero's) Dammer, you are missing out on the sheeet!  I have done drilling at Pinnies with both a BD Yos hammer and the Dammer.  The Dammer definitely drills faster.  Thank you Dan!

JC w KC redux

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6563
  • my density has brought me to you...
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #723 on: January 28, 2016, 09:07:43 PM »
JC has been hammering on me (sorry about the pun) about Powers bolts despite the issue of spinners, so I have held off getting some Powers bolts because of this issue.  

Mark,
Brad and I placed 3 long 5 pc bolts on a new climb with no issues Monday.
I have a small torque wrench coming tomorrow and am anxious to see what kind of torque I have been putting on my bolts.
The small plastic washer between the bolt head and metal washer is designed to squish out a little when torque is reached.
That's what I normally go by.
Other things I have been doing to try to minimize the chance of getting a spinner:
I over drill my holes to the point of burying the bit flutes.
I use a brush on the holes.
I do not start the cone up into the sleeve.
I try to be really careful when driving the bolt to make sure I am not hitting it too hard and also do my best to make sure I am aligned with the hole and hitting it squarely with the hammer the whole way in.
I try to make sure the surface contact is optimal between the bolt head and hanger and am careful not to keep hitting the bolt once it is fully driven.
These bolts are finicky.
I had one person suggest putting some anti seize on the threads but I haven't tried that yet.
 
One wheel shy of normal

climberdude

  • Mudders
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #724 on: January 28, 2016, 10:18:32 PM »
Thanks for the details.  I am aware of brushing since you have to do that considerably for glue-in bolts, which I have placed.  As it happens, our company got a large batch of 10 mm brushes with too short handles for our equipment (the vendor screwed up).  The company gave me one free, but I will have to snag the rest of the batch.  If I can get more and you need a 10 mm specific size bush, I will give you one sometime.

JC w KC redux

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6563
  • my density has brought me to you...
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #725 on: January 28, 2016, 10:28:23 PM »
If I can get more and you need a 10 mm specific size bush, I will give you one sometime.

I appreciate the offer. The last couple I got are Simpson and they cover a range - quite tight in a 3/8" hole so they should work fine with 10mm too. I found mine at Pro Build - about $6 each and stout.

I'm going to keep working with the 3/8" bits for now and continue my quest for root cause  8)
One wheel shy of normal

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #726 on: January 28, 2016, 11:24:55 PM »
Field testing report from the Pinnacles on the 10mm drill bits.  They work really well.  You still have to pound the bolt into the hole with a good effort and they tighten up perfectly.  Banquo bench testing showed no decrease in holding power over a 3/8" hole.  Personally, I am switching to 10mm bits.

Also, I think it is worth noting that if you look at the sleeve of a Power Bolt it says "3/8 10MM".  In our litiginous society I don't think that Powers would put that label on their bolts if it weren't safe to use them with a 10mm hole.

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #727 on: January 29, 2016, 12:54:44 AM »
I appreciate the offer. The last couple I got are Simpson and they cover a range - quite tight in a 3/8" hole so they should work fine with 10mm too. I found mine at Pro Build - about $6 each and stout.

I'm going to keep working with the 3/8" bits for now and continue my quest for root cause  8)

John,

I think the root cause of the problem is pretty well understood.  The cone does deform and in soft rock there is not enough holding power between the rock and the cone to overcome the force necessary to get past the constriction.  This same problem undoubtedly happens when the bolts are used in harder rock but the cone and rock are held hard enough to overcome the binding.

In discussing this with Greg Barnes of the ASCA he seems to feel, as do I, that this is not something that Powers is going to fix since this happens to such a small segment of the users of this bolt that there is no need for them to change it not to mention that these fasteners are designed for concrete and Powers really has no obligation to fix them for use in rock climbing.

It is up to us to find the best solution.  BTW, I like working with Dan Merrick(Banquo).  He has been a Professor of Engineering at San Jose State for many years and a climber for just as long, if not longer, and he really seems to understand what is going on.

clink

  • Meanderthal
  • ****
  • Posts: 4003
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #728 on: January 29, 2016, 06:14:26 AM »
Quote
look at the sleeve of a Power Bolt it says "3/8 10MM".

That is so wrong.
Causing trouble when not climbing.

JC w KC redux

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6563
  • my density has brought me to you...
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #729 on: January 29, 2016, 09:54:55 AM »
Deja Vu?

I think it is this locking action that is causing the problems when the bolts are over torqued and/or the rock is too soft to withstand the required torque.

The cone does deform and in soft rock there is not enough holding power between the rock and the cone to overcome the force necessary to get past the constriction.  This same problem undoubtedly happens when the bolts are used in harder rock but the cone and rock are held hard enough to overcome the binding.

One thing that has always bothered me is the fact that the bolts are labeled as 3/8 (10mm) on the sleeve – it’s stamped right on every bolt.

Also, I think it is worth noting that if you look at the sleeve of a Power Bolt it says "3/8 10MM". 


Bruce - What brand bits do you recommend and where do I get them?

One wheel shy of normal

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #730 on: January 29, 2016, 11:14:14 PM »
John,

Yup!  We are on the same page on this one!

Greg at the ASCA is working to find a source for rebolting. I found a few websites which sell the Bosch 10mm x 160mm SDS bits, but they seem to be in the UK.  You can buy them from Fixe for $15.

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #731 on: February 11, 2016, 09:10:54 PM »
Here is an update on some of the rebolting Clint and I have been doing in the last several months.

Clint, his son, Skylar, and I went up on North and South Fingers.  We replaced the  two bolts on top of South Finger, one was a wedge bolt, the other was an eye bolt which looks bomber, but is actually just a 3/8"x1" coarse thread lag screw that is screwed into a lag shield anchor.  Yikes!





On South Finger we also replaced three of the four bolts(60's or so Star Dryvins).  This was a bit of a toss-up as the bolts were added over 50 years ago, but after the first ascent.  They are in all the guidebooks(except Hammack's)s so we decided to replace them.  We left the bottom bolt as a historical relic.

On North Finger we replaced the old Star Dyvin with aluminum strap hanger and also removed another one of those eye bolts.

Clint and I went up on Daedulus and replaced five of the seven bolts in the bolt ladder of the end of the 2nd or start of the 3rd pitch(depending on how you do the climb).  Clint and I replaced the top bolt in the ladder a few years ago so that means we left one bolt(fifth in the ladder) as an original and as a testament to Glenn and Gary.   All bolts on this route except the aformentioned 5th bolt in the ladder are now replaced.

BTW, that is a very steep overhang.  Clint could not reach the 1st bolt on a rope from above so I came up from the belay and standing on that horribly sloping, loose ledge, clipped myself into one of Clint's aiders.  Then, for about a 60 second interval, I would reach up, grab Clint's harness and pull him into the rock so he could drill out the original hole.  I would then let go and Clint would swing back out into space.  It took a while to drill that 1st bolt!  In talking to Glenn Denny about this he had a laugh and said that, yes, his height was sometimes an advantage.

Because Glenn was able to drill the bolts so far apart we were really concerned about using the same holes so as not to make a clip all but impossible by moving a bolt up or down a bit.

Lastly, Clint and I went over to the Nexus/Sexus/Plexus area to do some rebolting.  Unfortunately, even after minimal rain for the past two weeks there was still a lot of water on the routes.  We managed to replace the anchors on top of the 2nd and 3rd pitches of Nexus with Fixe double ring hangers, and Clint put in a new bolt at the crux of the 1st pitch.

However, we couldn't do any rebolting of the other lead bolts because they were in a running water streak.  Also, it appears that Jack Holmgren glued in a lot of the Star Dryvins which means that we have to chop out the old bolt and drill a new hole.  We hope to come back in the fall and do what we can.

We also added a bolt to the top of Sexus.  We could have chopped out the old bolt and replaced it, but since we would have to drill a new hole anyway we just added a bolt.

Brad and Alan replaced the two bolts on top of Plexus in December 2014.

JC w KC redux

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6563
  • my density has brought me to you...
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #732 on: February 11, 2016, 10:07:41 PM »
Those lag eye bolts are great!
Maybe I should do an FA using only those (without drop-ins of course) and call it Ay Chihuahua  ;D
I know there is a bolt like that on the anchor for Tuff Dome - I'll put it on my list for when the closures lift :'(
I gotta get back out and get to work. I have some things I can work on solo - fingers crossed we don't get too much more rain this season (probably a pipe dream).
One wheel shy of normal

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #733 on: February 12, 2016, 12:11:04 AM »
Here is a photo of what a 'lag shield anchor' looks like.


mynameismud

  • unworthy
  • Posts: 5972
    • Mudncrud
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #734 on: February 12, 2016, 08:13:40 AM »
wow, that is scary.
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

  • PermaBan
  • ***
  • Posts: 6665
    • http://www.sonorapassclimbing.com
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #735 on: February 12, 2016, 04:04:29 PM »
why is that scary?

is there some evidence to suggest they don't bite into the rock well?  That they shear out of the sleeve?

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

climberdude

  • Mudders
  • **
  • Posts: 156
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #736 on: February 12, 2016, 05:59:40 PM »
Bomber, dude!  What's the problem?

Clint, thanks for replacing the bolts.  Wow, I also thought that that eyebolt was a bomber one.

JC w KC redux

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6563
  • my density has brought me to you...
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #737 on: February 12, 2016, 06:11:27 PM »
wow, that is scary.
Maybe he is talking about that old eye bolt or those shortie star drives that are completely undeformed - musta slid out real nice. Now as far as that newer bolt Bruce posted the pic of - lead and carbon steel...hmm...thread holding power on soft lead and minimum corrosion resistance. They took a rusty one of those off Toog's Direct a while back after I spotted it during a tense 5.9 stemming lead. Glad I didn't fall on that sucker  ;D
One wheel shy of normal

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #738 on: February 14, 2016, 11:18:46 PM »
The reason why this is scary is that the lead does not hold up over time.  From my experience it gets brittle. When I removed the eyebolt on the South Finger the lead shield just crumbled into a few pieces.

Bruce Hildenbrand

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 257
Re: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread
« Reply #739 on: February 15, 2016, 12:10:02 AM »
I am reposting my comment from the Range Bolts thread here as it is appropriate:

Quote
Adam Long wrote:
IMHO the fear that Brad always has of Pinnacles being turned into a climbing gym is actually coming true due to all the cool old bolts being replaced and all the kinks being aligned and justified by what theory seems right. But nothing will ever make Pinnacles safe... not even solid bolts... what a delusion that is... ASCA values seems kind of ironic in the context of the loose nature of The Pinnacles and the inherent risks and problems of placing bolts perfectly and where we want.

As one of the people who does a lot of rebolting at the Pinnacles for the ASCA I feel a need to reply to this comment.

When I replace bolts I try as hard as possible to put the bolt in the same hole or as close to it as possible given the sketchy quality of rock there can sometimes be at the Pinnacles.  I don't know how the rumour that we are moving bolts got started but it just isn't true.  If anyone ever has any questions on a rebolting project that I have done please feel free to contact me.  Please don't start unsubstantiated rumours.