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Author Topic: Official Rebolting and Route Hardware suggestion thread  (Read 5204779 times)
Brad Young
Grand Master
**
Posts: 4460


« Reply #860 on: November 09, 2017, 12:09:06 PM »


Bruce and Clint are hard core machines...


Pot/kettle.
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NOAL
Mudders
**
Posts: 430


« Reply #861 on: November 09, 2017, 12:22:43 PM »

Quote
Bruce and Clint are hard core machines...
They are from The Peninsula.
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Bruce Hildenbrand
Moderator
*****
Posts: 241


« Reply #862 on: November 09, 2017, 02:33:29 PM »

I have been meaning to do this for a while.  Here is a list of the rebolting Clint and I did last season.  We had some new tools to try out(see photos up thread) so we concentrated on wedge bolts in the Discovery Wall/Tourist Trap/Back Door areas.  Thanks to Dan Merrick and John Cook for helping out.

Also, I tagged each bolt and send almost all of them to Professor Paul Heyliger, an engineering professor at Colorado State University, for testing.  Most of the bolts were about 30 years old and all of them tested to the same specifications as a new wedge bolt for shear strength.  Of course that doesn't take into account the actual placement in the rock, but it seems to indicate that the bolts themselves don't seem to be going bad over time.

         Discovery Wall

-Mammary Pump
-replaced bolts #2 and #3

-Entrance
-replaced 2nd bolt

-Stupendous Man
replaced bolts #3 and #4
replaced 1 anchor bolt
replaced hanger on other anchor bolt
replaced chains with 7-link 3/8" chain and SS quick links

-Cleft
replaced hanger on bolt #2
replaced bolt #1

-Pistol Whipped
replaced all three protection bolts

-Verdict
replaced right anchor bolt
replaced hangers on center and left anchor bolts
replaced quick links with two SS quick links
replaced 3/8" chain with new 3/8" 5-link chain
replaced hanger on 6th bolt

-Broken Arrow
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced bolts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5

-Broken Arrow Direct
replaced hanger on protection bolt

Ordeal
-replaced hanger on anchor bolt

-Discovery Wall Rappel
replaced hangers on both anchor bolts
replaced anchor with two SS quick links and 3/8" 5-link chain

-Swallow Crack
replaced one of the anchor bolts

-Bye Bye Fly By
replaced hanger on protection bolt
(Previously rebolted)

-Top anchor Trauma/Plague
replaced both anchor bolts

-Trauma
replaced protection bolt

-Plague
replaced hangers on three protection bolts
(Previously rebolted)

-Wet Kiss
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with 2 SS quick links and rappel rings
replaced middle bolt anchor chain with 2 SS quick links and 5/16" chain
replaced #1, #4, #5 protection bolts
replaced hanger on #2 protection bolt

-Portent right finish
replaced lone anchor/directional bolt

-Cosmos
replaced both anchor bolts
put SS links with Mussy hooks
replaced hanger on #1 protection bolt
replaced bolts #5, #7 and #8
replaced hanger on bolt #6


      Tourist Trap

-Thrill Hammer
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with SS quick links
replaced #2, #4, #5, #6 protecton bolts

-Rat Race
replaced quick links at anchor with SS quick links


      Backdoor/Tiburcio's

-Auto Cream
replaced both anchor bolts

-Limp at Last
replaced one anchor bolt

-Tiburcios X
replaced one anchor bolt
added Fixe double ring hangers to two anchor bolts

-Camel
replaced hanger on 3rd bolt of Ali Baba w/SS hanger
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Runout
LoadStone Lovers
*****
Posts: 18


« Reply #863 on: November 09, 2017, 03:42:32 PM »

Did you put the 3rd (hard to clip) bolt on Mammary back in the original spot or move it over a bit? I think the original holds for clipping hold broke. Not complaining as I wasn't about to get involved in 3/8" bold removal. Just asking.
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JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
*
Posts: 3481


my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #864 on: November 09, 2017, 04:08:34 PM »

Did you put the 3rd (hard to clip) bolt on Mammary back in the original spot or move it over a bit? I think the original holds for clipping hold broke. Not complaining as I wasn't about to get involved in 3/8" bold removal. Just asking.

I think I can answer this.
The convention when replacing old bolts is to place the new bolt in the old hole if possible. The only reason this might change would be finding a bolt in totally unsuitable (bad) rock. In those fairly rare instances the rebolter has to make a careful and thoughtful decision to place the new bolt in good rock as close as possible to the original location.
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mungeclimber
Mr. BLL
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Posts: 5914


WWW
« Reply #865 on: November 09, 2017, 05:10:36 PM »

For cross reference...

http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2526.0

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On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge
Bruce Hildenbrand
Moderator
*****
Posts: 241


« Reply #866 on: November 09, 2017, 10:23:28 PM »

Did you put the 3rd (hard to clip) bolt on Mammary back in the original spot or move it over a bit? I think the original holds for clipping hold broke. Not complaining as I wasn't about to get involved in 3/8" bold removal. Just asking.

Clint and I discussed this at length.  Between the two of us we have almost 100 years of experience in climbing and have seen so many different situations that we tend to treat things like this on a case by case basis.

A lot of times when a key hold breaks the rating just reflects doing the route without the hold.  In this case, there was an alternative way to make that move.  But, as Clint pointed out, he knows people who have led the route in the original way without the hold.  Sure, we both know Chris B and could have called him, but the route still goes in the original way even with the broken hold.

In the end the decision was pretty clear.  We were just deepening the existing hole so if there ever is some sort of consensus that the bolt really should be moved, the original hole could easily be patched and a new hole drilled.

Which brings us to the whole issue of consensus.  As we have seen, and on this forum as well, with the issue of replacing 'historic' hardware with new hardware, even with something that seems pretty cut and dried, there are still climbers who don't want new bolts and relish the adventure of clipping suspect hardware.

So, in summary, while there are some pretty reasonable guidelines to work with there are no obvious or widely accepted answers.  Every situation needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
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Runout
LoadStone Lovers
*****
Posts: 18


« Reply #867 on: November 10, 2017, 11:06:17 AM »

Thanks for replacing! With bolt 2 modernized, it's reasonably safe to skip 3.
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Bruce Hildenbrand
Moderator
*****
Posts: 241


« Reply #868 on: November 10, 2017, 11:31:14 AM »

Thanks for replacing! With bolt 2 modernized, it's reasonably safe to skip 3.

I should add that the original bolt #2 was a bit suspect.  It was drilled at a very pronounced upward angle into the rock.  I drilled a new hole that was more perpendicular to the rock and put the new bolt there.  It is about 2 inches lower than the original bolt.  Again, these things are decided on a case by case basis.
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NOAL
Mudders
**
Posts: 430


« Reply #869 on: November 10, 2017, 04:11:58 PM »

Thanks Bruce, Clint, John, and Dan for all your hard work!
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Bruce Hildenbrand
Moderator
*****
Posts: 241


« Reply #870 on: November 14, 2017, 01:42:17 PM »

Someone asked me what bolts Clint and I replace on Shake and Bake last week.  Here goes:

P1: replaced all three protection bolts plus one bolt at the belay.  We added SS quick links and rings to the anchors.

P2: replaced the first protection bolt

P3: replaced the third protection bolt.  The first and second protection bolt on this pitch had been replaced in 2009, but the old bolts had not been removed.  We removed the two old bolts.
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mungeclimber
Mr. BLL
***
Posts: 5914


WWW
« Reply #871 on: November 14, 2017, 02:13:31 PM »

....  It is about 2 inches lower than the original bolt....

Bruce another hole only 2 inches below the original, seems to me, to create a weakness in the substrate. With sufficient force on a fall, 2 inches of material (Pinnacles material, specifically), could be an issue. With a hole full of injected epoxy and rock dust, I think it wouldn't matter as much though.

Can I recommend that all other future holes be placed further than 2 inches from the original hole at Pinnacles?

With second guessing apologies from the armchair,
Rob
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On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge
F4?
unworthy

Posts: 4405



« Reply #872 on: November 14, 2017, 02:28:30 PM »

I’d have given Clint $10 to have move that bolt on mammary pump to better rock!  Wink
Or. Gift card to mc Donald’s of an undisclosed sum.


Thank for finishing up the replacements on shake n bake. Long over due.

Yeah it sucked to NOT get the 1st bolt on the 2ns pitch. When leading one should go to that bolt, clip and down climb the belay....
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I'm not worthy.
JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
*
Posts: 3481


my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #873 on: November 14, 2017, 02:35:59 PM »

I should add that the original bolt #2 was a bit suspect.  It was drilled at a very pronounced upward angle into the rock.  I drilled a new hole that was more perpendicular to the rock and put the new bolt there.  It is about 2 inches lower than the original bolt.

From a geological/structural perspective, if the angle of the surface and the corresponding angle of the substrate changes drastically - this may indicate a cleavage plane or bedding plane difference which needs to be factored in. If the old and new holes are in the same plane, the manufacturer recommends a minimum of one bolt length separation - which you and Bruce already know.

I wouldn't normally use the term bedding plane with volcanic rock but there are so many deposits that have an ash matrix, we can use it with Pinns rock.  
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clink
Pin Heads
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Posts: 2299


« Reply #874 on: November 14, 2017, 07:50:16 PM »

2 inches lower but might be a few inches to a side.?

If the hole is filled with a structurally rated bonding epoxy the substrate may be stronger than it was before.

Thanks Bruce and Clint for all that work.
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Causing trouble when not climbing.
Bruce Hildenbrand
Moderator
*****
Posts: 241


« Reply #875 on: November 14, 2017, 10:14:56 PM »

Bruce another hole only 2 inches below the original, seems to me, to create a weakness in the substrate. With sufficient force on a fall, 2 inches of material (Pinnacles material, specifically), could be an issue. With a hole full of injected epoxy and rock dust, I think it wouldn't matter as much though.

Can I recommend that all other future holes be placed further than 2 inches from the original hole at Pinnacles?

With second guessing apologies from the armchair,
Rob


Munge,

I am just spitballing when I say 2".  I moved it to a location which should be fine.
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Bruce Hildenbrand
Moderator
*****
Posts: 241


« Reply #876 on: November 14, 2017, 10:59:11 PM »

From a geological/structural perspective, if the angle of the surface and the corresponding angle of the substrate changes drastically - this may indicate a cleavage plane or bedding plane difference which needs to be factored in. If the old and new holes are in the same plane, the manufacturer recommends a minimum of one bolt length separation - which you and Bruce already know.

John,

from the Powers literature I have read, the minimum of one bolt length separation only refers to the spacing of "active" bolts meaning bolts in holes.  If you have removed a bolt and are moving it's location I don't know of any published studies of the optimum spacing in that situation.
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JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
*
Posts: 3481


my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #877 on: November 15, 2017, 09:57:04 AM »

I have been meaning to do this for a while.  Here is a list of the rebolting Clint and I did last season.  We had some new tools to try out(see photos up thread) so we concentrated on wedge bolts in the Discovery Wall/Tourist Trap/Back Door areas.  Thanks to Dan Merrick and John Cook for helping out.

Also, I tagged each bolt and send almost all of them to Professor Paul Heyliger, an engineering professor at Colorado State University, for testing.  Most of the bolts were about 30 years old and all of them tested to the same specifications as a new wedge bolt for shear strength.  Of course that doesn't take into account the actual placement in the rock, but it seems to indicate that the bolts themselves don't seem to be going bad over time.

         Discovery Wall

-Mammary Pump
-replaced bolts #2 and #3

-Entrance
-replaced 2nd bolt

-Stupendous Man
replaced bolts #3 and #4
replaced 1 anchor bolt
replaced hanger on other anchor bolt
replaced chains with 7-link 3/8" chain and SS quick links

-Cleft
replaced hanger on bolt #2
replaced bolt #1

-Pistol Whipped
replaced all three protection bolts

-Verdict
replaced right anchor bolt
replaced hangers on center and left anchor bolts
replaced quick links with two SS quick links
replaced 3/8" chain with new 3/8" 5-link chain
replaced hanger on 6th bolt

-Broken Arrow
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced bolts #1, #2, #3, #4 and #5

-Broken Arrow Direct
replaced hanger on protection bolt

Ordeal
-replaced hanger on anchor bolt

-Discovery Wall Rappel
replaced hangers on both anchor bolts
replaced anchor with two SS quick links and 3/8" 5-link chain

-Swallow Crack
replaced one of the anchor bolts

-Bye Bye Fly By
replaced hanger on protection bolt
(Previously rebolted)

-Top anchor Trauma/Plague
replaced both anchor bolts

-Trauma
replaced protection bolt

-Plague
replaced hangers on three protection bolts
(Previously rebolted)

-Wet Kiss
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with 2 SS quick links and rappel rings
replaced middle bolt anchor chain with 2 SS quick links and 5/16" chain
replaced #1, #4, #5 protection bolts
replaced hanger on #2 protection bolt

-Portent right finish
replaced lone anchor/directional bolt

-Cosmos
replaced both anchor bolts
put SS links with Mussy hooks
replaced hanger on #1 protection bolt
replaced bolts #5, #7 and #8
replaced hanger on bolt #6


      Tourist Trap

-Thrill Hammer
replaced both anchor bolts
replaced quick links with SS quick links
replaced #2, #4, #5, #6 protecton bolts

-Rat Race
replaced quick links at anchor with SS quick links


      Backdoor/Tiburcio's

-Auto Cream
replaced both anchor bolts

-Limp at Last
replaced one anchor bolt

-Tiburcios X
replaced one anchor bolt
added Fixe double ring hangers to two anchor bolts

-Camel
replaced hanger on 3rd bolt of Ali Baba w/SS hanger


This information has been incorporated into the Rebolting Master List

http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2402.0
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JC w KC redux
AgentOrange
*
Posts: 3481


my density has brought me to you...


« Reply #878 on: November 15, 2017, 09:58:01 AM »

Someone asked me what bolts Clint and I replace on Shake and Bake last week.  Here goes:

P1: replaced all three protection bolts plus one bolt at the belay.  We added SS quick links and rings to the anchors.

P2: replaced the first protection bolt

P3: replaced the third protection bolt.  The first and second protection bolt on this pitch had been replaced in 2009, but the old bolts had not been removed.  We removed the two old bolts.


This information has been incorporated into the Rebolting Master List

http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2402.0
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