An ethical question: distance between climbs before it is squeeze jobby?

[F4?]

Meh, more the better. Go to Europe or south Africa. Clearly, squeeze job is not in French or German.

[squiddo]

Meh, more the better. Go to Europe or south Africa. Clearly, squeeze job is not in French or German.

F4, quit trolling bullshit. You take that approach and you'll end up with a grid of chopped bolts. Do you want red anodized bolts next to cracks too? Wait, maybe you might but not the rest...........

Aren't you on the beach?

[k-man]

There is no argument here about whether or not a "squeeze" job will wander onto existing routes. By definition they do.

Actually, I was saying that squeeze jobs don't necessarily have to wander into other routes for them to feel squeezy.

For example, I was looking at a line just left of Hard as a Rock. Start at the arete, go up close to HAAR, then back out left. Gets real close to HAAR, but doesn't touch it. While climbing it, you might want to go into HAAR, but would do your best to avoid it to make the line independent. Maybe somebody will bolt it, but it will be a squeeze job, and it will lessen the HAAR, in my opinion.

Pweeter is a variation, and a valid one at that. It doesn't really squeeze any other routes, you're not purposefully avoiding holds to make it independent. (Extra points if you know the origin of that route name!)

[mungeclimber]

within 5-6 feet...

I'm not clear on how the climbs you ask about would be squeeze jobs, but perhaps I'm missing something... Though Pweeter starts at the base of Jorgie's and ends up at the top of Ordeal, most of the bolted moves aren't near either. For Stupdendous Man, what other bolted lines do you feel are too near it? There are Lithium and Power Point, but both are definitely further away and on more difficult features (and until Power Point joins with it). Likewise for Hot Lava.

ah, ok, so we're getting closer to the definition of what is a squeeze job. 5-6' apart is squeeze... because those of us with longer reaches can make those clips.


WRT, to the other lines, that's the point, they join each other. They are squeeze jobs, but called out as independent routes, and they get stars, and everyone likes them.


I would ask why is there a lot of initial resistance to defining what is or isn't a squeeze job?

Again, please don't use the "if you have to ask" because that just is an implied impuning of my ability to think critically about where to place bolts. If folks are concerned about my judgement of actually placed and spaced out bolts, then we've got a different issue.

[mungeclimber]

(Extra points if you know the origin of that route name!)

I don't think I've heard the story/explanation! I'm quite curious about it though.

I see what you're saying about HAAR. Agreed, lines that touch and rejoin, would also be a definition of a squeeze.

see my reply to Gavin on the Pweeter example. Probably not a persuasive generalization of a line being put between other lines because it doesn't have any real bolts that close.


How about this one?  What about bolting "Holiday Ordeal" the TR problem?  Climbing the line that doesn't touch Ordeal, I think would be a squeeze since much of the line would be reachable from the upper half of the first pitch of Ordeal.  Essentially a variant that joins is a squeeze in that case. But look at other lines that share anchors by comparison. So I think there is an aesthetic definition of proportion that makes shorter lines more suspectible to the charge because we can say " well most of the route is distinct"

[k-man]

Munge, how about this for a back-of-the-envelope definition: A squeeze job is a route where you purposefully don't use holds on an adjacent line in order to keep the line independent.

It's pretty rough, and it would allow for a lot of routes that I do consider squeeze jobs. Certainly, if a route shares holds (where it doesn't just climb the same line) is a squeeze.

Also, consider this. If two folks are climbing two routes next to each other, and they have to make way for each other, then ur squeezin'! Of course the same caveat--Variations, by definition, will climb sections of existing routes.

Rubine and I were doing a route in Yosemite once, and we came within 10' of an existing line. We ran it out there, dangerously, because we didn't want our route to infringe on the older established line. Later, I wanted to go back and add a bolt (who wants a ground fall potential from 50'), but I still thought it would be tight against the other route.

In a place like the Pinns, where the resource is scarce and the holds tend to not draw distinct lines, it's difficult to not want to bolt where the rock is good.

[Brad Young]

Again, please don't use the "if you have to ask" because that just is an implied impuning of my ability to think critically about where to place bolts.
 

No, it's not; no such thing is implied or express.

It's instead a general reaction to a very, very general question. You want reactions in feet but we have no context, no idea where and what and no detail. I gave that answer because the question is asked in a vacuum. Six feet in some circumstances might be a squeeze job, but not in others.

Instead of impugning  your ability, I was assuming your ability to think critically about bolt placements was higher than average (which it is). And if a "higher than average" thinker recognizes the issue in a given location, it's probably a squeeze job.

[Brad Young]

Oh, and Kelly, I'll bite too: what's the origin of the name Pweeter?

[Brad Young]

(Extra points if you know the origin of that route name!)

So, this is a great question which could almost be a thread of it's own. I've always thought there are real and fun stories behind many route names.

Since there isn't much history to the climbing on the Sonora Pass Highway, the first ascent appendix contains little stories and anecdotes about just such things. The idea is to add flavor to an area without much in it's (known) past. Here are two of my favorites:

From a route on Frankensteins:


A.  Hasty Departure  5.9  FA (solo): Tom Addison, 5/28/04 (The first ascent was made, onsight, free solo - in tennis shoes - as a means of escaping from a snow storm.)


From a route on the Body Parts Wall of Herring Creek Dome:


F.  Emergency Tracheotomy  5.8 X   FA:  Jeff Lane, Robert Behrens, 6/16/02 (The name “Body Parts Wall” comes from this route.  On the first ascent a hold blew off, at the crux, before the leader could place any protection.  The leader started to fall - his upper body was completely disengaged from the rock.  As he was going he desperately snatched a hold at the last second, saving himself from an “Emergency Tracheotomy.”)

[mungeclimber]

Munge, how about this for a back-of-the-envelope definition: A squeeze job is a route where you purposefully don't use holds on an adjacent line in order to keep the line independent.

It's pretty rough, and it would allow for a lot of routes that I do consider squeeze jobs. Certainly, if a route shares holds (where it doesn't just climb the same line) is a squeeze.

Also, consider this. If two folks are climbing two routes next to each other, and they have to make way for each other, then ur squeezin'! Of course the same caveat--Variations, by definition, will climb sections of existing routes.

Rubine and I were doing a route in Yosemite once, and we came within 10' of an existing line. We ran it out there, dangerously, because we didn't want our route to infringe on the older established line. Later, I wanted to go back and add a bolt (who wants a ground fall potential from 50'), but I still thought it would be tight against the other route.

In a place like the Pinns, where the resource is scarce and the holds tend to not draw distinct lines, it's difficult to not want to bolt where the rock is good.

good rules, that's really helpful in narrowing it down.

[mungeclimber]

No, it's not; no such thing is implied or express.

It's instead a general reaction to a very, very general question. You want reactions in feet but we have no context, no idea where and what and no detail. I gave that answer because the question is asked in a vacuum. Six feet in some circumstances might be a squeeze job, but not in others.

Instead of impugning  your ability, I was assuming your ability to think critically about bolt placements was higher than average (which it is). And if a "higher than average" thinker recognizes the issue in a given location, it's probably a squeeze job.

fair enough

[mynameismud]

Here is an example of a squeeze.  The upper part of Power Point.  The part where you move onto Stupendous Man.  The lower part is ok, the upper part should not have been bolted.  

Another good example is the route to the left of Big Pucker.  The lower part is a squeeze the upper part is great.

Future Shock is interesting to note for me since no one considers it a squeeze.  It is not, but, It is possible to traverse over and use some holds that some people use on Rocket in my Pocket.

I think the statement of aesthetics hits it about as close as possible.  To define a squeeze route definitively is difficult considering the medium we are working with is quite varied.  Sometimes you can start on one route and end on another while in the middle you used completely independent holds and it seems like a good route.  Other times you look at a route with the same description and ask what were they thinking.

Part of the problem with routes of this nature is it will just bother some folks while others think it is no big deal.  I suppose the artistic part is to make sure you please more than you piss off.

[mungeclimber]

Here is an example of a squeeze.  The upper part of Power Point.  The part where you move onto Stupendous Man.  The lower part is ok, the upper part should not have been bolted.  

Another good example is the route to the left of Big Pucker.  The lower part is a squeeze the upper part is great.

Future Shock is interesting to note for me since no one considers it a squeeze.  It is not, but, It is possible to traverse over and use some holds that some people use on Rocket in my Pocket.

I think the statement of aesthetics hits it about as close as possible.  To define a squeeze route definitively is difficult considering the medium we are working with is quite varied.  Sometimes you can start on one route and end on another while in the middle you used completely independent holds and it seems like a good route.  Other times you look at a route with the same description and ask what were they thinking.

Part of the problem with routes of this nature is it will just bother some folks while others think it is no big deal.  I suppose the artistic part is to make sure you please more than you piss off.

true

[cobbledik]

What if you grid bolt a nearby chossfest loser crag (something within site or your orig project)?

That way, by the magic of perspective, people wouldn't even consider the orig route when compared to "that grid bolted squeezefest right over there."

[waldo]

Take a walk, a long walk.  There's untouched rock out there and nobody else needs to know.

[MUCCI]

The youth is just gonna rap bolt it anyway.



Seriously, if you can hand the leader of route #1 a BLL whilst redpointing route #2 I say it's a squeeze.

[mungeclimber]

two long armed BLL drinkers? Or just an average monkey hooker?

[cobbledik]

If anyone in the party is drinking a BLL, I'd say it's a squeeze job. If you're sipping bourbon then bolts can be no less than 2feet apart.

[F4?]

No beach for me. I did touch the water. But there was a sign saying bano...

I think it's a slippery slope. In the end is or are the climbs good.  O one has talked about buffalo soldier. Sure the start is with ordeal, but it does take on it's own line.

Yes, bll is welcomed this weekend.

[k-man]

Ahh, to let it out, or not....











OK, here goes (sorry David if you meant to keep this secret!):

Pweeter, the nickname he gave to his special love.


Big Pucker, named for the now deceased tree that used to kiss the rock next to the start of the route. I wish we had a picture of that tree, it was pretty funny.

I wanted to name Foreplay "Wet Kiss," but was overruled. I found a better place for the name though.



I think the story for Zippy Do Da has been told.



I never figured out why Tom wanted to name that thing Racing Stripes, but when we put up the route next to it, I gave it meaning with the name Melvin. I laughed hard at that one.



The roof is the height that the water will reach after the big rain.


David scoped Black Dagger. It took us a couple of day's attempting to stick the first moves. Of course, I had to be the one to unlock the sequence, and quickly found myself high above that fuggin' landing. I was too scared to try a hook, I placed a crummy pin and drilled the bolt off of that. After sending it, I tossed through the evening trying to figure out a really cool name for the route. Later, after the name was published, I was dismayed to find out there was a Black Dagger on the Diamond! And then *another* at Red Rocks! And I thought I was being so original.   Oh well...


Isn't it a favorite pass-time of climbers to dream of FA names? I know I have a list, with one or two really good names... MmmmHahahahahahaha.