Richards guide standards

[F4?]

but as the years go by I also appreciate the simplicity of the TR.  It is kinda like, soloing without the ground.

It is like soloing when using one of your ropes for a TR...

[JC w KC redux]

sorry but i don't get that. how is toproping like soloing? toproping is totally safe - soloing is all or nothing.

[mungeclimber]

I think he means the purity of focus. The different sources of focus, but the result is the same.

TR means you don't have to worry about falling.
Solo means you can't (overly) worry about falling.

[Brad Young]

sorry but i don't get that. how is toproping like soloing? toproping is totally safe - soloing is all or nothing.

No, no. Factor is making a direct reference to the quality of Mud's ropes. He was making a joke.

If you've climbed with Mud (even this last weekend) you'd see what Factor means right away (nice, big goby on the yellow rope). But the rope is "perfectly safe," just ask Mud (and yes, I climbed on it and Joe climbed on it and lead fell on it and it was fine - but we can still give him crap about it).

[JC w KC redux]

direct reference to the quality of Mud's ropes. He was making a joke.

thanks for clarifying that. now that i read it again i see the true meaning.
funny how we can interpret things sometimes.

i still have to put in my two cents.
since i started leading i don't want to toprope anything outside anymore - call me a lead snob.
i occasionally solo stuff - usually after i've been climbing other stuff and am good and warmed up.
soloing to me is the purest form of climbing and nothing else compares - although i have felt the same exhilaration and sense of satisfaction after leading stuff at Pinns where i'd clip some old bolt and think "i definitely do not want to fall on that POS" Maybe Solo should be shortened to the acronym SOL since that's what you are if you fall...but i digress...

[mynameismud]

@Factor
now that was a good one liner.

@JC w KC
How is the TR like the solo?  Well I usually like a TR a bit loose so if I fall I know it.  So in that respect the TR is like soloing since there is freedom of movement.  The harness restricts a bit more than what I would feel when soloing but freedom of movement is what I meant.  When I solo there is freedom of movement and no thought to gear, rope, partner, pitches, etc.  So with a TR most of that is the same or at least similar.  This is what I meant.  The freedom of movement is there, the freedom from thought, but the ground is not there.  With the TR if I come off, the ground will not be there.

You are correct the commitment is not at all the same.  As a result the focus in many ways is not the same.  But there are, for me, similarities.

that is what I meant by soloing without the ground.  Same, but yes, very different.

[mynameismud]

I am the opposite with soloing.  I like to start the year soloing.  I start on easy routes, some I have done many, many times.  When I start to relax on the rock I like to go start leading stuff.  However, the solo is a dangerous game.  R&I called it well when they called it the dark art.  So alluring, so rewarding, the draw is strong.  Getting caught up in it can become an addiction at which point it becomes dangerous (perhaps this should be more dangerous - it goes to a different level).  I think Croft said it very well when he stated that one has to do it for themselves only and to be honest about the outcomes.  I read in Buddhism about stages of fear and risk.  Fear, ignoring fear, loss of fear (very dangerous point), understanding fear, fear.  I have done a fair amount, and some at a relatively high level.  Sometimes now, the TR just seems ok.

[JC w KC redux]

I hear ya Mud. I totally get what you're sayin'. i may change my attitude toward TR'ing when i have a few hundred leads under my belt...

[JC w KC redux]

that's some good stuff. i feel like a toddler swapping stories with you now!

[mynameismud]

I just enjoy the back and forth discussions.  I think I spend to much time thinking about this stuff.

[mungeclimber]

I just enjoy the back and forth discussions.  I think I spend to much time thinking about this stuff.

that's why I post

beats working

[mynameismud]

@munge
I find the term focus interesting.  It seems when the subject of soloing comes up focus inevitably is mentioned.  What is the focus?  Why is it there?  I think the focus comes down to the moment, and during soloing the moments focus is fear.  Why fear, because we want to survive.  Fear ultimately boils down to loss.  What do we think we may lose?  Our life.  Soloing brings us to our most primal state.  Protecting our life.  The task at hand is singular and real.  The task can only be achieved with our ability to master the physical environment that is in front of us.

[mungeclimber]

that focus by fear seems to me to depend on difficulty and "exposure" - but when soloing easy ground I can get into a zen like state of focus and awareness that isn't fear based (or at least isn't primarily...).

I'm still focused though. In that sense, TR'ing is even closer to soloing focus, but with more difficulty on TR.

That's why I climb better on TR. There is no fear of falling and all focus can be poured into a single move.

[Brad Young]

That's why I climb better on TR. There is no fear of falling and all focus can be poured into a single move.

That's odd; I feel that I climb significantly better on lead because all the incentive is there. Who gives a rat's ass if they fall on TR?

[JC w KC redux]

That's odd; I feel that I climb significantly better on lead because all the incentive is there. Who gives a rat's ass if they fall on TR?

I couldn't agree more Brad - nothing like being on the sharp end to motivate your moves - especially the crux(es).

[CruxLuv]

Hm.  I'm w/ munge.  I climb so much better w/o the shake factor interfering with my technique. 

I'm still too new to leading to be able to not have the "what if's" haunting my every move (or freezing a move). 

With the security of TRing or seconding, I can much better enjoy the moves and focus on form.

[JC w KC redux]

that's cool. as KC says "that's why they make chocolate and vanilla"!