Author Topic: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns  (Read 3118573 times)

Atomizer

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2012, 09:08:41 PM »
Actually i don't think I'm going out anytime soon to do any removal ops.

What Aaron says about "the rock wins" keeps moving around the different sectors of my brain. I am not sure what that means yet or what he intended. It could go either way. Possibly a justification for chopping bolts to respect the rock but also for leaving the bolts to protect the rock from further drilling.

I'm not totally sure what "its going to get thug means" either. Is that a physical threat or chop talk.  As a group of traditionalists we seem pretty unsure of what to do. And unfortunately (with no offense intended) I am separated from the others who are commenting here because I am in position to climb routes at that level, but don't feel the desire with the current events that have spoiled the purity. And I wouldn't feel right chopping a route then coming back and leading it to put bolts back in. But I do see how the motivation of anger could get the job done that Tom couldn't do 20 years ago.

Can someone else do the job so a Real FA team can go up and set the record straight?

mungeclimber

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2012, 09:52:50 PM »
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And I wouldn't feel right chopping a route then coming back and leading it to put bolts back in.


Talk more about this. I've had the same sensation on occasion with a line I had spied, but someone later bolted it on rappel. In that area, there is not precedent or strong tradition to appeal to, unfortunately.  But in the case of Pinnacles, there seems to be enough incursions into TD behavior for what is a GU area, that it seems right to say no more. Preserve it for guys like you and Mark and other strong climbers that have never heard of GU climbing, but once they do, they'll need folks actually doing it to show them how it's done and why that moment or possibility of 'not knowing' is so important.

If the only examples going forward are top down, then 'we live what we learn' as a community.

From the little information we have here and on FB, it seems justifiable to remove the bolts in my opinion. We should confirm with the route setter/equippers. There should be no 'scene' around it. They just quietly disappear one day.

Also, I don't think thug means threat of violence or anything like that. It means physical effort has to be expended to pull those. Most likely they are stud wedge type bolts. Much harder to pull, thuggish.

Then again a "SMACK DOWN TIME" language was used. But that person is always energetic in their speech and may have meant smack talk, not as in physical threat of violence.


On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

MUCCI

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2012, 10:13:16 PM »
I am pretty resiliant in my charge Adam.

Pretty clear as to what we "traditionalists" should do as well.

Are WE unsure?  You have made it clear you are on the fence.

I will leave the definition of "Thug" up to those who choose to continue down this road in regards to rap bolting in pinnacles.  No threats of violence here, just colorfull adjectives that the KIDS are used to hearing/using these days :)

For all of you rap bolting lurkers....

Feel free to give me a call. I am very easy to contact, and very active at pinnacles.  We can discuss how your team will do the right thing and remove your installation.  If not, your routes will be erased.  All of them.

The hangers will be re-purposed for rebolting projects that benefit the community that frequent the area.  








Atomizer

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2012, 10:50:21 PM »
Way to take charge Mucci! I'm definitely on your side of the fence. I just have extra concerns related to if I were to attempt to climb the route ground up post-chop.

Quote
And I wouldn't feel right chopping a route then coming back and leading it to put bolts back in.

If I had already participated in some thuggery, I wouldn't consider my latter effort to be truly Ground Up.  The feeling of adventure would be reduced by knowing the terrain beforehand. That would be a sort of "Headpoint GU". 


Would a post-chop GU effort feel degraded or enhanced by the fact that others had already been there?

I could feel motivated by the frustration, pride, and love for traditional values and and be more determined to ascend in GU style.

I could also feel like the route has been devalued; the rock has been cleaned, tested, and sent. The questions have already been answered and the adventure destroyed.
 

cobbledik

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2012, 05:55:17 AM »
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I could also feel like the route has been devalued; the rock has been cleaned, tested, and sent. The questions have already been answered and the adventure destroyed.

Wouldn't Sharma TRing both climbs yield the same response, if such a response be present in your individual ethics?

mungeclimber

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2012, 08:01:35 AM »
both good points
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Atomizer

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2012, 11:35:33 AM »
What Sharma has done has little bearing on what I can do. I learned long ago that Chris is just way better than all of us, possibly everyone. You can't compare Sharma to a mere mortal and expect similar results. The fact that Sharma climbed a route doesn't effect me in the same way as learning that a mortal like Vian could climb these routes.

cobbledik

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2012, 11:41:28 AM »
That makes sense.

mungeclimber

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2012, 01:34:30 PM »
That makes sense.

had to think about that for a minute, but then the caveat individual ethics applies.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

cobbledik

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2012, 02:25:55 PM »
I think I have a similar feeling about certain athletes, but since my sport is aid more than sport, the same concept would apply to people like Ammon's speed on nailing routes or Tommy's freeing of aid routes. Their accomplishments are cool, but have no bearing on how I approach aiding.

But OT of course, back on topic.

If the bolts are still there in late Aug and consensus is to chop them, I'm more than willing to help learn the art of removing and restoring.

F4?

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »
But if you take a step back....who has the right to chop? Is there a committee?
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mynameismud

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2012, 03:24:09 PM »
I thought Sharma answered the question that it would go free, not the question on whether or not it could be bolted ground up as the previous folks had been trying to do.  I thought I heard some where Sharma said 12c?
Here's to sweat in your eye

Atomizer

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »
I see issues here since we are arguing in isolation from the folks who may feel the other way. Maybe I will take the perpetrator up on his offer to get some margaritas on the way home from work one of these days. Maybe Mucci wants to come along?

mungeclimber

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2012, 04:22:48 PM »
But if you take a step back....who has the right to chop? Is there a committee?



really gunna ask that one? Thought we had done the philosophical hashing before? Anyways, there is no taking a step back with regard to that question. Anyone that can put one in, can take one out.

It's essentially partisan when it comes to the action. Either one is for a particular bolt, or against it, or ambivalent enough to let others make the decision for them whether it goes in, stays, or goes.

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

CruxLuv

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2012, 09:19:17 AM »
A quote by Dave Yerian from California Climber Mag:

What are the most significant changes have you seen in the sport since
you began climbing?

“Styles of climbing have changed a lot; like people previewing and preprotecting
routes from the top down. To me, coming from the top down
is less exciting because by viewing the climb in advance you’re taking
some of the adventure out of it. It seems like people are sacrificing the
sense of adventure for the sake of number gain.”
The "best" climber is the one having the most fun.

Aaron McDonald

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2012, 10:23:02 AM »

What Aaron says about "the rock wins" keeps moving around the different sectors of my brain. I am not sure what that means yet or what he intended. It could go either way.

Atomizer sorry if I was not clear. What I intended to say was that if you cannot create a route with the tradition and ethic of GU, leave it alone -- the rock wins this time.

skully

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2012, 08:59:10 PM »
Meh. The Stone has time. It'll eventually peel away your efforts.  Do YOU want to look at some atrocity(or classic, to be fair...who can say?) for the rest of your life?
Cheers! ::)
Holy crap! oh, please little hook stay, please stay, that's right you're fine........And  Yes! off THAT manky shit. Whew.

F4?

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2012, 06:55:12 AM »


Quote
really gunna ask that one? Thought we had done the philosophical hashing before? Anyways, there is no taking a step back with regard to that question. Anyone that can put one in, can take one out.

It's essentially partisan when it comes to the action. Either one is for a particular bolt, or against it, or ambivalent enough to let others make the decision for them whether it goes in, stays, or goes.

So if I got enough consensus to add a bolt....I could?? Sweet!
Maybe fix a note pad @ the base..."pls sign here if you want more bolts to this route"
I'm not worthy.

mynameismud

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2012, 08:59:41 AM »
10 AM on a Saturday while at work my mind wanders. 

So does this mean I can go out and rap bolt all those old McConachie and Holmgren projects?  Those guys always picked good lines.

Hmm,  I know of an old Chris Project only half way done....
Here's to sweat in your eye

MUCCI

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Re: Rap/Ground-up bolting at the Pinns
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2012, 12:24:47 PM »



Maybe Mucci wants to come along?

Sure, but we both know that ain't gonna happen.

Oh, and if you meant a meeting with the head rap bolting cheerleader Bellizzi, no thanks.

I prefer to speak to those who are responsible for the drilling, not the ones responsible for running their mouths on the subject.

Once again, for all of you rap bolting lurkers:

Send me a message or give me a call, I am not hard to get a hold of.

OR don't, and hide behind your cowardice.  No matter, your installments will be removed either way.

Josh Mucci