Chris and Jim:
It's nice to see both of you here. Lemme respond to some of what you've each said (one at a time though, I've got to go to work):
Chris: Your post is somewhat strange in that you seem to be defending another person's acts?
From what I've gathered (with you by phone and on here), you didn't rap bolt these routes. I'm clear on that. And at least some parts of your post seem to disapprove of bolting that way at Pinnacles (you posted - seemingly as a point in your favor - that you haven't rap bolted since 1981; you also wrote that you told her to finish the routes ground up - really, really reassuring to hear you say both things).
But you defend her actions, or are at least trying to? I'm not as clear on whether you think what she did is acceptable. Do you?
Also, are you acting as her mouthpiece here, or speaking for yourself? Or both? She should join the discussion herself.
A few other questions about parts of your post that I don't understand:
1. One of your comments - "Tom Davis had long since abandoned those routes Vian finished via Top Down for over 15 years" - is really puzzling. Are you saying that since Tom abandoned the route (maybe he did) it's OK for her to do an act that flies in the face of a strong and enduring community consensus (one meant to, among other things, preserve a very small resource, i.e. limited quantities of Pinnacles rock).
Could you elaborate on the logic of this (if that is what you meant).
2. Your question: "What's a better route, a poorly placed rap route or a rap route that has the bolts placed correctly? " is also confusing. As I read the question I think that the word "rap" wasn't intended the first time? Aren't you trying to differentiate between routes placed on lead and on rap?
If I'm wrong, then the question doesn't make sense in a conversation of whether rap bolting is OK or not OK at Pinnacles.
If I am right - if you actually didn't intend to use the word "rap" the first time you did - then the answer to your question is as obvious to me as it is to you. But I doubt that our answers are the same. To me adventure is the biggest part of climbing and I also love the sport's history and traditions. I prefer any Pinnacles route put in ground up to any rap bolted route.
Your question was obviously meant to suggest the "right" answer by it's use of the words "placed correctly." But that answer is only "right" if one assumes that adventure and history and tradition are secondary values in climbing to absolute safety and gymnastic moves. I think that that is a really bad assumption (and one based on really shallow values- but that last part is me loading the issue my way).
As an example: in our many phone calls about climbing, I've told you that there is rock up here on this pass that is very much like that at Pinns. There is room for hundreds of routes on this rock. And yet I've made almost no effort to climb on this stuff. Why? Because without a shared value of adventure and history and tradition behind it, the Pinns-like rock up here is simply boring choss.
The values that your question assumes, are your values (and presumably your friend's). They aren't those of the people who love Pinnacles climbing.
3. In a much earlier thread Munge had wondered whether Vian knew ahead of time whether what she was doing would violate the strong community consensus against rap bolting at Pinnacles. It seems pretty clear that she did know this and that she made a conscience choice that what she wanted was more important than anything else in the world.
4. If your friend won't defend her own actions then I ask you to pass this along to her:
"Establishing a 5.13 sport climb isn't so cutting edge anymore. The best definition of a 'world class climber' is one who treads lightly on the rock, who respects other people and their values instead of putting what she wants and desires above all else, and who respects the location and context of a possible new route before breaking out the drill; all while climbing hard. The only one of those things that your friend did was climb hard.
Yawn.
If she really wants respect and fame, and a big name, then tell her to act accordingly. Until then, tell her to 'grow up.' "
5. As if adventure and history and tradition weren't enough reason to respect the no-rap-bolting ethic at Pinns, consider too the limited resource that is Pinnacles rock. I think you in particular understand just how limited the resource is since you've spent uncounted hours over decades tramping over all of the monument looking for, and establishing new climbs.
There are now over 900 routes at Pinnacles. How many more can be done? Some.
As I think you understand, one way to prevent using the resource up completely is to impose some limitations voluntarily. One obvious and intelligent such limitation is to limit the way routes go up. Again, this is just one more good reason to continue with and to respect an existing and strong local ethic.
6. Take my word for it: Mucci is no "rude ass punk." He's a damn good man. One with enduring values and respect for others. He is certainly a very good friend of mine.
