J.C. and Counting Up to Triple Digits

[Brad Young]

By the way, 77 leads and counting is pretty impressive (actually, 77 onsights - are there more leads you've done that count as leads even if they are not onsights?). Sounds like you'll go over 100 this coming season (or, really, this season we are now in).

Keep us posted?

[JC w KC redux]

By the way, 77 leads and counting is pretty impressive (actually, 77 onsights - are there more leads you've done that count as leads even if they are not onsights?). Sounds like you'll go over 100 this coming season (or, really, this season we are now in).

Keep us posted?

If I count all leads I have re-led 35 lines that I previously onsighted.
Some of those I've led more than twice like Corona-5x, Big Bad West 8x (4 solo), Kermit 5x, Walk the Plank 3x and Photographer's Delight 3x - mostly as a result of taking other people out or as warmups for the day.
I guess technically I've had one redpoint on Elephant Rock's Reg Rte since I followed Aaron the first time - we took KC and Crux there the following weekend and we both led it so they could follow.

[Brad Young]

I guess I was looking for the total number of Pinnacles climbing routes you've "done," in good style. My definition of "done" is to have led a route with no hangs, falls or taints of any kind as a red-point or better (so, for example, I've "done" routes that are very hard for me by getting a clean lead after several attempts). Of course, routes that only exist as topropes are "done" by climbing them clean on toprope. Leading the same route clean five times would still only equal one route "done."

Since I've never been able to lead very hard routes, I've always taken pleasure in just doing a large number of routes.

By whatever measure you're racking up one heck of a list at Pinns, and it appears that, even by my definition, you'll soon have "done" more than 100 routes there.

[JC w KC redux]

I guess I was looking for the total number of Pinnacles climbing routes you've "done," in good style. My definition of "done" is to have led a route with no hangs, falls or taints of any kind as a red-point or better (so, for example, I've "done" routes that are very hard for me by getting a clean lead after several attempts). Of course, routes that only exist as topropes are "done" by climbing them clean on toprope. Leading the same route clean five times would still only equal one route "done."

Since I've never been able to lead very hard routes, I've always taken pleasure in just doing a large number of routes.

By whatever measure you're racking up one heck of a list at Pinns, and it appears that, even by my definition, you'll soon have "done" more than 100 routes there.

I appreciate the props - gotta say I am having the time of my life!
Can you clarify something for me?
Does my lead on Elephant count as a redpoint since I followed it once - one weekend before I led it.
I think the fact that I followed it negates the redpoint.
It was totally within my ability to lead, but I gave Aaron dibs since it was his idea to go up there.
In retrospect I should have asked him to just pull the rope up and rappel so I could lead it too.
The route wandered way too much to have him lower and clean on the way down.
I think you and I have the same philosophy - I don't count any climb as "done" that I don't onsight or lead clean from the ground up after a failed attempt (redpoint). There are two climbs I need to redpoint (I got spit off on the first try) - Me and My Monkey and Lucky 13.

[Brad Young]

Can you clarify something for me?
Does my lead on Elephant count as a redpoint since I followed it once - one weekend before I led it.
I think the fact that I followed it negates the redpoint.

I think you and I have the same philosophy - I don't count any climb as "done" that I don't onsight or lead clean from the ground up after a failed attempt (redpoint).

Your first comment is incorrect about what a redpoint is, but your second comment gets it right.

A redpoint is any clean lead (no hangs, no falls, no taints of any kind), and so your lead of that route, having followed it once, was definitely a redpoint (and thus, according to my sense of style, and I think, by most climbers sense, you've done the route; it counts on your total number of Pinnacles ascents).

Following it first (or failing in a lead attempt first) doesn't negate a redpoint, it negates a flash or onsight (and I don't pretend to understand the difference between these two phrases; Rob knows and can explain that distinction).

[JC w KC redux]

Your first comment is incorrect about what a redpoint is, but your second comment gets it right.

A redpoint is any clean lead (no hangs, no falls, no taints of any kind), and so your lead of that route, having followed it once, was definitely a redpoint (and thus, according to my sense of style, and I think, by most climbers sense, you've done the route; it counts on your total number of Pinnacles ascents).

Following it first (or failing in a lead attempt first) doesn't negate a redpoint, it negates a flash or onsight (and I don't pretend to understand the difference between these two phrases; Rob knows and can explain that distinction).

This is what I found online a while back - can't remember the source. Maybe Rob will chime in too.
No mention is made about leading a route after following it.
The reason I thought that might negate a redpoint is because it seems too similar to toproping - which I never do if I'm planning to lead something. I'm to the point now where I don't like to follow or toprope - although following does require you to make many of the same moves and gain critical stances that the leader does - albeit without the same stakes.

Onsight: climb a route without prior knowledge or experience of the moves and without falling or weighting the rope.
Redpointing: leading a climb after previous unsuccessful attempts - without falling or resting on the rope

As matters of style, any of the following are likely to be regarded as poor style by most free climbers:
Pre-climb inspections: learning the nuances of a route rather than assessing the route for safety.
Flash: a clean lead on the first attempt after having received beta (coaching) of some form.
Hangdogging: resting on gear or rope during a lead
Pinkpointing: leading on pre-placed gear
Headpointing: I think this one should be called “what’s the pointing” - top roping a climb before leading it.

[mungeclimber]

flash and onsights are sometimes defined differently.


true onsight is no prior knowledge, no pre-rehearsal


some say a top rope can't be onsighted or flashed because it has to be a lead.

I say that one can 'flash' a top rope, but only lead an onsight.

we should pull some definitions from the books and see if we can nail it down. I like JC's style. He's very particular about which routes he's done in which style. The only trouble is he doesn't like to TR. lol

Coming from Joshua Tree where everything is short, top roping is very common and a great way to try harder stuff without risk.

anyways, I digress.

nice job JC on the triple digits.  How many are Pinns vs. other areas?  Or was 77 all pinns?  


at pinns, as of winter of 08, I had only done, via lead or done in good style (i.e. no falls), 228.  I'd been "on" in some way shape or form 302.  But the second number is just a reflection of how many climbs I've followed or fell on. blah I suck. Time to get the season moving again!  Maybe I'll count up the new stuff tomorrow.

[JC w KC redux]

I like JC's style. He's very particular about which routes he's done in which style.
nice job JC on the triple digits.  How many are Pinns vs. other areas?  Or was 77 all pinns?  

I did my first lead ever (onsight) on 12-23 last year at Pinns.
The 77 is onsight leads at Pinns.
If I count Alabama Hills(10), Red Rocks(4) and SPH( I have 99 onsight

[Brad Young]

Rob, as you may know, I've got a 20 year long New Year's day tradition of counting/renumbering all of the routes I've done in each area I climb. It's fun to do, especially if it's snowing that day.

J.C. I'm curious, using my definition, how many Pinns routes have you "done?" It's more than 77, right?

[mynameismud]

I did my first lead ever (onsight) on 12-23 last year at Pinns.
The 77 is onsight leads at Pinns.
If I count Alabama Hills(10), Red Rocks(4) and SPH( I have 99 onsight

quite a tally considering the start date.  way to get out there.

[JC w KC redux]

J.C. I'm curious, using my definition, how many Pinns routes have you "done?" It's more than 77, right?

Nope - sorry...it's 77 onsight and one redpoint. I only number the onsights on my list. 

[JC w KC redux]

quite a tally considering the start date.  way to get out there.

thanks Mud. i'd be out there today were it not for the precip. i think we only missed one weekend last winter due to rain.
we might head down tomorrow and hike/explore some remote areas - maybe jump on some stuff if it looks dry and isn't still raining.
if not i'll console myself by looking forward to the long weekend...

[mungeclimber]

Real nice numbers

[JC w KC redux]

Real nice numbers

No new #'s today but we had fun hiking up to Resurrection Wall and all over the High Peaks.
We scoped out a bunch of routes we want to do.
The rain held off but there was obviously a flash flood effect yesterday that scoured the trails and started a few pretty dramatic rivulets. Nearly all the Poison Oak has lost its leaves. There was a ton at Resurrection!
Fired up to onsight this coming weekend!!!

[cobbledik]

I had a friend that was so obsessed with the difference between an onsight and a flash that when we were at a crag leading routes, if I lead the route first, he would belay by only looking straight ahead at the wall or with his back turned away from the wall so that he couldn't see any of my gear choices, moves, or other beta. At one point he got mad at me because he thought that my grunting on the route would "taint" his onsight because he would be able to anticipate where the cruxes would be by how how much rope was out and where that would put me on the route.

I stopped climbing with him because he was a general douche about everything in life. Whowouldahthunk?

[JC w KC redux]

I had a friend that was so obsessed with the difference between an onsight and a flash that when we were at a crag leading routes, if I lead the route first, he would belay by only looking straight ahead at the wall or with his back turned away from the wall so that he couldn't see any of my gear choices, moves, or other beta. At one point he got mad at me because he thought that my grunting on the route would "taint" his onsight because he would be able to anticipate where the cruxes would be by how how much rope was out and where that would put me on the route.

I stopped climbing with him because he was a general douche about everything in life. Whowouldahthunk?

Funny story!
The grunting thing is a bit extreme - especially since some climbers grunt just while moving!
I have to admit I am a bit obsessed but it's not a problem climbing with KC - she doesn't yet have the onsight "fever" and luckily my other partners don't either. When we've been out with other parties and I've really got my sights set on something, I either make sure someone else belays and I don't watch - or I climb something else simultaneously. The other option is to make sure I get on the onsight first. I guess that might put me dangerously close to being/becoming an onsight douche  - or at the least a lead hog...

[JC w KC redux]

5 more onsights today on 3 summits - Disintegration Point, The Sow and Little Dome.
Gonna see how many more I can rack up in the High Peaks before the end of this glorius weekend!

[Atomizer]

Keeping em coming! I'm liviing vicariously through all these images of things I may or may not want to do.

[JC w KC redux]

I got three more onsights on the 24th - Baby Bear, Mama Bear and the Lump.
Baby Bear is a chossy POS solo 5.6R that I wouldn't recommend(still not sure why I did it!), Mama Bear is a spicy 5.7 with tricky moves and a little cleaner now that I removed some of the loose rock. Papa Bear Reg Rte looked like a mossy death route, so I skipped that one - although the April Fool's Route looked interesting - aside from the fact that the first bolt is 30 feet up and we couldn't see it. Looked like it may have some decent sling knobs IF the rock is solid! Based on the quality of the other members of the "family" I wasn't feeling it. We decided 2 out of three ain't bad (cue Meatloaf here). There are anchors and chains on all 3 formations - only Baby Bear is listed as having an anchor in the book.
The Lump 5.8* was definitely the highlight of the day - steep friction that reminded me of the climbing I did with Brad at Rob's Short Slab my last day on SPH. The Lump got me fired up for day three.
We finished the day with KC leading Miss Piggy - she had been eyeing it for a while, but was put off by the distance to the first bolt. She crushed it in her typical solid style.

JC solos Baby Bear 5.6R - this was kinda nuts! I didn't trust the holds at all!!





KC on Baby Bear





JC working toward the only bolt on Mama Bear 5.7





KC works a nice undercling on Mama Bear





JC on the summit of Mama Bear - check out Papa Bear's growling shadow!!





JC on the Lump 5.8*





JC's shadow from the summit of The Lump





KC strung out on The Lump - this was my favorite pic of the whole weekend!!!





Yesterday was day 3 in the High peaks and I intended to add several climbs on the Flatiron to my onsight list. Crux and hubby Phil joined us along with one of my geology students from West Valley College (Chris Bencomo). We all got our heads right taking turns leading Photographer's Delight and then headed for the Flatiron.
Crux decided to jump on the Regular Route 5.3 - an onsight for her and my first lead ever, anywhere, 11 months and a day earlier. KC and I went around the corner to Burton's Below. The climb looked fun until I got above the first bolt and realized that it was a lot harder than it looked. Maybe I was tired, maybe the sun glaring around the left edge and in my eyes caused me to misread holds, no doubt in my mind the crux section was a sandbag - for whatever reason (I've been running over it in my mind ever since) - I took my second leader fall about one move below the second bolt and KC caught me mere inches above the ground. Had I decked I would have landed on my spine (trying not to think about that part). Chis said I fell backwards like a rag doll. Whoosh, boink, wham (the wham was KC being lifted off the ground and smacking into the rock). She hung on like a champ. I think we were both in shock afterwards - she worse than I. Crux was in the middle of her lead - talk about unnerving!
All said and done we are both okay, Crux finished the lead like a champ and Phil and Chris followed.

JC starting Burton's Below, Crux is over to the right about 1/3 of the way up the Reg Rte - The Flatiron





We hiked the steep and narrow over to the Sponge and Crux led the Reg Rte 5.0** while I led the Left Side 5.6**
We had a great end of day up top!
I already had many things to be thankful for this weekend but now I have many more!!! 

[JC w KC redux]

5 more onsights today on 3 summits - Disintegration Point, The Sow and Little Dome.
Gonna see how many more I can rack up in the High Peaks before the end of this glorius weekend!

Here's a few more shots from the long weekend - these are all Thanksgiving day

Stepping onto the summit "ball" of Disintegration Point 4th class - this was NOT a fun downclimb!





The Sow E Shoulder 4th class - everything but the entry/exit move is mellow





The Sow SE Face 5.6 - we've walked by this so many times, we figured it was time to do it!





Catch Me 5.5R what's with all the solos today?





Got You 5.6...definitely the mossiest and possibly the crappiest route we've ever done...





Fun with shadows on our way down...





as the failing light illuminates the mercenaries creed...and the soldier sheaths his sword...while the poet lifts his pen...