Author Topic: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?  (Read 3699898 times)

Atomizer

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2013, 10:31:23 PM »
I think what I said is called "Reality" not a "false analogy."

Munge you are assuming that all the users that show up after the anchors are put in have the same level of caring and love for that gully and its vegetation as we do. You can't assume in such situations. If there is one thing I learned as National Park Ranger, is that you can't assume, expect or predict an outcome, or feel smarter than someone else. Those persons will not be aware of the discourse that we have had on the subject. And how can you expect someone to rappel exactly in one direction? Also what is the impact on vegetation when you pull the rope? It snakes all over the place on the way down and might impact areas that haven't been impacted yet.

I'm with Joe. Just leave the rope on your back. But at the same time Joe is crazy. He doesn't wear a helmet, resists safety protocols that are standards, and free solos descents that many people would even climb up.




In case you haven't noticed, I'm playing devils advocate here. Had a few pitchers at the brewery too...

Still not sure how I feel.

Maybe fix ropes down this thing like the east ledges descent.


mungeclimber

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2013, 10:41:10 PM »
call me tomorrow if you really want to square up on this.

What I said above is not inconsistent with what you just typed, and most of what you typed is what we're all saying already. e.g. vegetation impact and pull of the rope. see upthread.

Yes, I can assume in a time limited and hypothetical way to speculate right now in discourse about possibilities. No one is doing anything without going in and looking at it closely with some cords to measure distances and how it pulls.


 
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Brad Young

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2013, 10:41:47 PM »

...But at the same time Joe is crazy. He doesn't wear a helmet...


Helmet hell, I don't think I've ever even seen him wear a shirt.

squiddo

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2013, 10:43:38 PM »
Helmet hell, I don't think I've ever even seen him wear a shirt.

Lol
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Bruce Hildenbrand

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2013, 11:51:58 PM »
If I understand what you are proposing I don't think you can use Fixe double ring hangers.  If you put the rap on the side of the gully you have to have either vertically oriented anchors or one of the two bolts placed horizontally has to have a longer length chain to properly equalize the load.

BTW, I have lots of my own hardware(chains, bolts, links, etc.) which is used for new routes.  Yes, the ASCA and ARI stuff is for anchor replacement though I think we could convince both organizations that this would be a good thing if necessary.  Since Brad is willing to pay for it that's as we say in legal mumbo jumbo, a moot point.

k-man

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2013, 12:11:37 AM »
Holy cow :o Atomizer, that reply is extra fat.

I agree, that descent amazed me, and just about kilt me fiance. Truly, I think the East Ledges solution is best. Outside of that, I think you should string caution tape across the upper gully and install a fat set of raps down the face. That whole route is just one long descent anyway.
May your leads be long and sustained!

F4?

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2013, 08:05:12 AM »
Do it!  Do it!

I'm not worthy.

JC w KC redux

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2013, 05:23:48 PM »
the action of us driving vehicles to Pinnacles have caused massively bigger holes in the earth,
If you want to create less impact don't drive to Pinnacles.

i'm not sure how I feel about the way you feel...
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Jim

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2013, 08:27:07 PM »
Was it really two years ago Brad?  I too have done that descent many times in the past - during daylight, at night, and on occasion when wet.  Yet the most recent experience was the absolute worst ever.  We had started on Desperado Chute Out and continued across Old Original for an easy fun day.  We were rapping just before sunset.  I had belayed Bill down first and he tried to get pro in but the the single piece was crap.  Everthing was running with water and 'slicker than snot' (as Brad would say - although I can't say I've ever climbed on that). There was no way to get back up to the saddle.  Closet I have ever come to buying it.  In the old Chuck Richards guide the link up was one of the to do long climbs back when, casual by today's standards.  Finally got around to it only to nearly die on the descent.  So yeah I strongly believe anchors are warranted on that stretch.  These days if you hit it when wet you'll be damn lucky if you don't get hurt really bad.

F4?

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2013, 10:55:44 PM »
Quote
Yet the most recent experience was the absolute worst ever.  We had started on Desperado Chute Out and continued across Old Original for an easy fun day.  We were rapping just before sunset.  I had belayed Bill down first and he tried to get pro in but the the single piece was crap.  Everthing was running with water and 'slicker than snot' (as Brad would say - although I can't say I've ever climbed on that). There was no way to get back up to the saddle.  Closet I have ever come to buying it.

Yup, hence why I back track on old original and rap rock around the clock > West Face......


I'm not worthy.

Brad Young

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2013, 01:49:34 PM »
I emailed out a link of this thread to about 12 climbers who are Pinns regulars but who don't post here, or don't post very often. A couple of those have now posted here. Three read the thread and then emailed me privately to respond. All three of those were in favor of adding anchors as long it's done carefully.

I'm leaning toward going ahead with this in mid-December.

If I do proceed, I intend to take some photos of some of the worst of the environmental damage while I am there. I'll post them here afterward.

squiddo

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2013, 01:50:34 PM »
thanks for the service Brad
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MUCCI

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2013, 02:14:38 PM »
Sounds like a probe is worthy, just to ensure the lines are exactly where they need to be.

I have put my trust in those who have spoken up here to maintain a proper service oriented approach to this issue.

Putting it out there for discussion is admirable.  Gives us all a chance to discuss the options and find the best solution.

When I hear hardmen like Jim, Kelly ect talking about buying the farm on that descent, well I think you have your answer.

+1


F4?

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2013, 05:37:27 PM »
with bolts for rap. Does the decent become a new route?

Hmmmm?
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JC w KC redux

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2013, 07:11:44 PM »
I've done most of it in reverse - up to the meadow to do Fish Breath Arete and then Barber's Backside on a "let's do all the Old Original variations" day - that's 2 out of 3 pitches - do I get the FA if I help with the bolts? I'd like to name it The Completion Backwards Principle.
One wheel shy of "normal"

F4?

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2013, 07:34:20 PM »
I get dibs on the eliminate version.
I'm not worthy.

k-man

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2013, 08:04:07 PM »
From what I understand, we're talking about two sets of anchors in the upper gully. This gets you over to the 4th class ledge where there's just trees that you sling for pro, then you downclimb the lower gully. Is that right?

I'd really have to see it to make a judgement on where any new anchors would go. But if they could be places so there's one direct line down, I'm for it. However, I do note Atomizer's note about being able to swing around on rappel and causing more/new damage. And, what about that 4th class traverse?
May your leads be long and sustained!

Brad Young

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2013, 08:23:34 PM »
From what I understand, we're talking about two sets of anchors in the upper gully. This gets you over to the 4th class ledge where there's just trees that you sling for pro, then you downclimb the lower gully. Is that right?

I'd really have to see it to make a judgement on where any new anchors would go. But if they could be places so there's one direct line down, I'm for it. However, I do note Atomizer's note about being able to swing around on rappel and causing more/new damage. And, what about that 4th class traverse?

Yes, two or three sets, for two or three single rope raps.

These would get one to the meadow with the big oak. It's about 100' across this large meadow to the start of the class four traverse. I've never thought the class four traverse was all that bad, and it's protectable (tie off, or climb behind, trees). Anyway, I wanted to deal with one thing at a time (as my genius wife says "let's not burn that bridge 'til we come to it").

And yes, while one could swing around on rappel and cause more damage, there's no real cause to do so. And without the rappel, if it is damp, one has no choice but to cause that additional damage.

See if this photo helps:


F4?

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2013, 10:19:42 PM »


Hmm, I see a few new lines.
I'm not worthy.

Brad Young

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Re: The Standard Machete Descent: Is It Time for Rap Anchors?
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2013, 10:59:02 PM »
I've received one more response from a Pinns regular; this one also thinks that the proposed rappel stations are a good idea.

And Larry Arthur replied and wanted me to post his reply. Here it is in full (not in a quote box - it's too long, and the quote boxes use a font size that is too small):


"Thanks for the heads up - and taking this question to the community.   Here is my long winded opinion (which is why I rarely have time to post anything other than on MountainTools.com).   Please share it in total.

As mentioned before, I consider Old Original to be a scramble of moderate difficulty (not a rock climb per se) and have always thought it a good terrain for aspiring mountaineers to learn and practice the craft - in a friendly environment devoid of common hazards that exist in the alpine (ice, slippery snow, lightning and related weather).   This is what first attracted me.  It is Pinnacles' "sidewalk in the sky" as someone well before us had described... An ice axe and crampons nor rock shoes are needed and Old Original is accessible year 'round - how cool is that?! 

Years ago (decades probably) I removed an ill conceived and poorly positioned string of rappel anchors that led down the Machete descent gully.   The drill dust was fresh and I could easily see the benefit of the rappels (security) was seriously outweighed by the risk of self-generated rock fall and hung up ropes (what a pain to have to hike back up and free a rope snagged on a knob or bush).   After all it was an easy walk - including the loose gravel and small rocks - that a "mountaineer" quickly learns to avoid.  Weeks later on another excursion across the "sidewalk in the sky" I repaired the anchor at the top of the Hide Out and removed all the bolts and filled the holes restoring the character of the descent.  BTW - these were not the first bolts to be placed for the descent or in the descent gully - Originally, the rap off the ridge was anchored to slings around the square block (then bolts were added) and 3/4s of the way down there was a SMC hangered single bolt (rock right on a little buttress - near an oak tree) just above the down climb section.  The bolt (as well as the tree) had been used by some to secure a doubled rope for a hand line or body rappel (other mountaineer techniques) while descending.   At this point, most would want to face into the rock and use both hands and feet for security - on Class 3 terrain.   Also the 2 or 3 bolts placed on Barber's Backside  - were installed primarily to access to the top of the ridge directly above the Machete Direct finish - part of a rescue "pre-plan" we concocted one year - either with Ranger Pete Armington or Ken Phillips.  Later, Ken and I rapped the Direct and crow-barred off loose flakes (one huge flake "traditionally" marked with chalk sparked the campaign), removed an errant pair of belay bolts (on the last pitch) and an off route quarter incher.  We carried a broom too - and swept debris off some ledges while Clarence took cover below & kept the "landing zone" tourist free.  Constructive cleaning?  At least the loose rock was less likely to kill anyone now.
   
Couple of the skills important for the developing mountaineer is terrain assessment and knowing when to employ the rope or not - going up (or down).  This is something most often learned by experience but best learned from a mentor or guide (I learned the hard way, then became a guide).  Many factors contribute to this judgement - some objective and some subjective.   Old Original is one of my favorite stretch-of-the-legs (I take a skinny rope for the rappels) and also a great introduction to mountaineering for all climbers - who benefit from discussing strategy, tactics, route-finding, managing risks & placing protection - while enjoying an excellent view.   This route's character is a bit different compared to more difficult ("higher" Class) "routes" that "merely" rely on spotting the next bolt (or set thereof) and mustering the strength and climbing prowess to clip them.   Mountaineering (and trad gear routes) can be terrifically entertaining - I like the problem solving, improvisation & gear use... and they provide me lasting memories.

Your Machete Descent (p310) gives a good report - "downclimb a slab 30 feet to a meadow (fourth class)".  It suggests a belay may be desired.   This and other points along the route have traditionally been down climbed yet (under certain circumstances) could warrant short roping a partner, employing a hand line for balance, impromptu butt belay or even improvised anchor and stance belay - as decided by the climbers based upon their experience and skill and factored by the conditions of the day (light/dark, dry/wet, rested/tired, etc).   In other words, not all descents (even technical rock climbs) require a full blown rappel - with anchor, harness, carabiner and rappel gizmo.   Other examples would be the chimney down climb from Badman's Mezzanine to the rap stations below... or from Escape from Soledad or down the Hand-Thumb notch.  These all seem about the same to me and mostly if not always descended without a rope.  Deploying a rope and rappelling takes time - daylight this time of year (as does recoiling the rope). It does not necessarily reduce total risk or increase security for the day's adventure... and rappelling on "easy" terrain can lead to other hassles.

I do have a nit to pick about mention of the rappel slings on the LNP tree below the Machete descent gully and the "possible to descend from this tree by way of long two-rope rappel" - which (by mere mention) has a negative affect of encouraging some to consider rapping from this point and damaging the moss, lichen and succulent wall below.   The tree is an "attractive nuisance" and (for some) provides the illusion that "being on a rope" is preferable to finding one's way on non-technical terrain. Better would be to install a small weather-proof sign "Do not rap from tree, continue across meadow to easy rock traverse & trail."   This would be a good service project, reminder to all and aid to first-timers finding their way.   Again - leave it up to the leader and follower(s) to determine if encouragement, a spot, or rope set up of some type is necessary to cross the last easy rock and hand traverse.   

Thanks for taking this to the MudNCrud community and stimulating discussion.   I'm certain that all will give careful consideration to your question and proposal and the best ideas will prevail.

Happy Holidays and Best Climbing,
Larry"