Author Topic: Pigeon Crack  (Read 54415 times)

F4?

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Pigeon Crack
« on: December 07, 2013, 08:20:46 PM »
Does it go? Would it go? Who would go?  :o

Yes, I'm bored.
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Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2013, 08:30:32 PM »
Does it go? Would it go? Who would go?  :o

Yes, I'm bored.

Weird, weird post. Or at least weird timing for it.

I was talking to Kevin less than an hour ago about doing this route on Wednesday or Thursday of this coming week. And I also talked with Mucci about it earlier (it's possible his friend Steve has useful information about the fixed pins that Clint and John found on top of Crackaphobia - which is where the first pitch of Pigeon Crack ends, if there even is such a pitch).

I put it in the book because I thought it had gone (at least the first pitch). Now that I've tried to climb it, and asked around a lot, I'm not so sure.

If you don't mind, I post up my full set of thoughts about it in the next day or so?

cobbledik

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2013, 08:36:54 PM »
We'll have to let you know.

Brad and I are planning on rapping in and placing #0 copperheads with pre-frayed wires in chiseled cobblestones for pro.

F4?

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 08:47:29 PM »
But would it go to the top?

The guano would harden the rock?
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Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2013, 10:10:57 PM »
But would it go to the top?

The guano would harden the rock?

I assume you've read what's in the 2007 book? And seen the topo? (These are on pages 328 and 329.)

While working on the book, I thought there was a route up this whole "crack" (more of a rotten, overhanging cleft?) based on what Gagner put in his book and what was on Clint's master list of routes. I don't have Clint's master list any more (I may have a paper copy of it in a big box in the attic, but I'm not gonna get it down). But I do have Gagner's book. At page 108 that book has a photo that shows the west side of Machete. On that photo is a line marked with the number "5." This line clearly designates the cleft that is Pigeon Crack. Below the photo is a list of Machete routes. Route "5" is called "Aid Route:"







When I was writing the book, it was of interest that, although Gagner lists this as a "route," there is no description of it at all in the book (his was mostly a written-description-of-the routes book).

If I recall correctly, Clint didn't have any information about this route either, other than what he'd seen in Gagner's book. But he had a distinct memory of there being three fixed pitons at the top of Crackaphobia when he and John did that route. How did those pinns get there? Neither of us knew, but that would be a logical place for a first pitch of this "Aid Route" to end.

When I talked with him, Paul had no memory of any route there and no memory of how he'd concluded that there was in fact one. Yet he'd called it a route. Had he talked to someone who'd climbed it? Had he seen evidence that it had been climbed? He didn't recall (it's no big surprise that he wouldn't remember details like that either; one of the more obscure routes at Pinns, more than 20 years later!).

So, with this little bit to go on, I checked it out myself.

It looked like someone had climbed at least a first pitch (starting from near the base of the route West Face to what are now the Crackaphobia anchors, all as drawn in on the 2007 topo). I could see where one might climb. All the bolts drawn in on the topo were there (although the "second" bolt - the grouping of two - was actually three really crappy bolts when I first saw the route; more on this below).

In the season before the book came out I tried to climb this pitch with Dave Harden. I made it to the grouping of three bolts (concluding that the climbing was only loose and dangerous 5.6 to there). Once at that point I could see no other bolts and no other pro possibilities at all until the next bolts that are drawn on the topo. These next bolts are about 50 feet, maybe 60 feet further. Yet the climbing looked no harder than what I'd just done, likely it was easier. And these upper bolts weren't more than 15 feet or so from the Crackaphobia anchor.

But the three bolts I'd climbed to were so bad that I wan't willing to go further. Instead, I placed a new, long 3/8 inch bolt, pulled (very easily) the two worst of the old bolts and then lowered off (this is why there are two bolts shown in this position on the topo - there were two when I got done with it).

Based on what I'd seen and on this effort, I concluded then that, more likely than not, this pitch had been climbed before. This conclusion resulted in this being a listed route in the text and on the topo.

But what about the upper part? This part of the West Side was the last area I needed to research for the book; I was pushing to finish, and so I had some limits to the time I could spend. I knew I wouldn't have time to try to climb the upper part, but I could at least scope it out carefully with binoculars. I did this from multiple locations on the ground, and, while making my third ascent of Son of Dawn Wall, Jeff led while I hung and scoped leftward with binos, looking for any sign that the upper part of Pigeon Crack had been climbed (I was also hanging so as to get the actual Son of Dawn Wall topo done correctly).

Keeping in mind that Paul showed the "Pigeon Crack" route meeting up with Son of Dawn Wall, I figured that I would have to see at least some sign of passage if it had actually ever been climbed (most likely I'd see bolts if anything - there certainly didn't appear to be any other way to protect the climbing up there). Even if I didn't see stuff lower, I'd have to see stuff (bolts probably) as the two routes converged wouldn't I? I saw nothing at all (and I spent a lot of time looking). I concluded that the upper pitches had never been touched, and so I wrote what I wrote about those pitches in the 2007 book.

After the work on the book was done I went back to try to finish climbing what was now a route in the book (gotta climb every route in the park). The events of my second attempt, combined with more asking around, have made me think that my first conclusion (that the first pitch had probably been climbed) was more likely than not incorrect.

More about this in our next installment...


mungeclimber

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2013, 11:08:50 PM »
Quote
After the work on the book was done I went back to try to finish climbing what was now a route in the book (gotta climb every route in the park). The events of my second attempt, combined with more asking around, have made me think that my first conclusion (that the first pitch had probably been climbed) was more likely than not incorrect.

Trying to make sure I have the sequence correct. Something sounds incongruent. So I think it's my read of the timing and distance.

1.During book work thought route up whole face.
2.This looked to be "Aid Route" based on Gagner book.
3.Pinns at top of Crackaphobia pre-existed FA of Crackaphobia.
4.Right before book came out attempt on potential full "Pigeon Crack Aid Route" got you to the "three bolt" cluster. It was modified to two bolts.
5.After book came out, 2nd attempt on potential full "Pigeon Crack Aid Route"

So naturally, we want to know how the 2nd attempt progressed and what you saw and where you saw it in this area. :)

Also, I infer from your story, and particularly the first attempt, that the initial cluster of bolts is not an anchor to the first pitch. But is a midway point of some kind on the way to the top of Crackaphobia and the iron there.  To state it more clearly for the folks back home, if there is doubt that the iron is not the top of a 'first' pitch and the route to there had NOT been climbed, then it begs the question you foreshadowed... how did the iron get there?

Prior ascent of Crackaphobia to Clint's ascent?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2013, 07:15:21 AM »
The only thing I would have said differently is your "number 4." By the time I tried to climb it the first time, I'd already concluded that, if anything had been done, it was only this first pitch.

The initial cluster of bolts was confusing. Three bolts in  cluster would normally be an anchor. But they were only 35 feet or so up and right from the start of  the climb. So at first I reached a conclusion (which I am now questioning) that this was only a midway point.

And from what I've seen and learned afterward, yes, I'm thinking that the fixed pins on top of Crackaphobia were very likely from a prior (unreported, aid) ascent of that route.

More after I get the fires re-started and some coffee going.

Atomizer

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2013, 08:23:03 AM »
What are you a Lawyer or something...

Good investigative reporting.

Actually I put that cluster of bolts in back in 1999. We specifically put really old ones in to trick whomever would write the next guidebook

JC w KC redux

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2013, 08:33:08 AM »
What are you a Lawyer or something...

Good investigative reporting.

Actually I put that cluster of bolts in back in 1999. We specifically put really old ones in to trick whomever would write the next guidebook

Actually they are both lawyers - and you're a liar - I put those bolts in.
One wheel shy of "normal"

Atomizer

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2013, 08:49:24 AM »
Actually they are both lawyers - and you're a liar - I put those bolts in.

Munge is a lawyer too??? Why didn't I know this?

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2013, 09:05:29 AM »
Wow, what competition for having put in a cluster of crappy bolts. Maybe my memory is off and there were two three-bolt clusters?  ;)

And, as for me, as far as this site is concerned, I'm a husband and father first, then a climber, then a writer, and, oh yeah, I do have a profession too (which I enjoy).

I find a lot of fun in this type of investigation into Pinnacles climbing history. I know Rob does too. And Mucci and Kevin, and...

It was 21 degrees here when I woke up. The driveway is a thin sheet of ice (we cleared 14 inches of snow yesterday, but there's always just a thin bit left that turns to ice until the temperatures are warm enough to dry it). The icicles are two feet long, and we're sticking around the house drinking extra coffee today. Tricia and I are likely to cut a Christmas tree off the back lot.

F4?

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2013, 09:26:29 AM »
Quote
Munge is a lawyer too???

I thought he was a DR and not a lawyer. Maybe both?

He looks normal.

This is one of the best threads in a while.

I had always "wondered" if it was and aid route and what it would be like to be way up there having pigeons bombarding you as you crept along there turf.

We all know Brad put in 110% to get the information in the guide correct. So it's cool to have at least 1 mystery to talk about.

I'm not worthy.

JC w KC redux

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 09:33:59 AM »
I thought he was a DR and not a lawyer. Maybe both?

He is truly a man of many hats :)
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Atomizer

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2013, 09:42:36 AM »
I had always "wondered" if it was and aid route and what it would be like to be way up there having pigeons bombarding you as you crept along there turf.

We all know Brad put in 110% to get the information in the guide correct. So it's cool to have at least 1 mystery to talk about.

If you want some Pigeons to bombard you there is coffee shop a few blocks from my house at the yacht harbor. The world class pastries are well known by the pidgeon population. Sounds like The Pigeons of Pigeon Crack might take us as Pastries.

I'm game for some investigation if you need someone who is trained in Pigeon attacks.

F4?

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2013, 10:09:54 AM »
Quote
If you want some Pigeons to bombard you there is coffee shop a few blocks from my house at the yacht harbor. The world class pastries are well known by the pidgeon population. Sounds like The Pigeons of Pigeon Crack might take us as Pastries.

Guess where I grew up?? on the "other" side of the yacht harbor....
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Atomizer

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2013, 10:14:10 AM »
Guess where I grew up?? on the "other" side of the yacht harbor....

Well than, I guess if you are down your experience would trump mine. But... where is you?

And I think it goes without saying, question the sanity of anyone from Santa Cruz who posts on this forum.

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2013, 01:16:44 PM »
My second attempt on the "route" Pigeon Crack was made after the book came out. By that point I had concluded that, if any of what Gagner showed on page 108 of his book had been climbed, it was only the first pitch. That is, the only part of this route that might have been climbed is what is shown in the 2007 book.

But before this part of the story, as a side note, there is a very thin almost-seam directly below what had been the cluster of three bad bolts (two of which I had pulled out by that point). I suppose it is possible that someone had aided this seam and left the three bolt cluster as their anchor. I'm skeptical, but it is possible. I'll show this feature to Kevin when we are there.

I made my second attempt on a Friday, the first day of one of our "Inn at the Pinnacles weekends." I remember this because Vicki was my first belayer; after a while Jim McCon showed up and replaced Vicki (who could then go enjoy herself with Wendy). And Jim and I quit early (partly because we didn't have enough time regardless, and partly because the focus of those weekends was social, not climbing, so we wanted to get back early).

This second attempt didn't go very well.

First, while Vicki belayed I climbed the "5.6" to the (now) two bolt cluster. I was very surprised was how hard the "5.6" was. "Holy crap," I thought. This section was very loose, it felt at least "R," and maybe "X" rated, and it sure as hell wasn't 5.6 (it could be 5.8 ). Basically I'd sandbagged myself!

Oh well, I carried on. I had intended to pull the third old bolt and clean it up (it certainly wasn't adding anything there, the replacement bolt I'd placed is very good). I did that. Then I tried to climb further, and I tried to see if there were any other bolts or alternative protection possibilities. I saw no other bolts (that is, I saw none that I hadn't seen before). I saw some seams in quite cruddy rock (pins maybe?), and I saw really, really loose gaping "cracks" that clearly wouldn't hold anything at all even if a piece could be made to stay in them.

My high point on this attempt was about 10 feet up and right from the replacement bolt. What had looked like "easier climbing" on my earlier attempt didn't look so easy now (sandbagged myself again). But more critically, the rock I was moving on to was very loose. Even the big "stance" I was moving toward was loose - I pulled the whole thing off together with the melon-sized lodestone that was imbedded in it (maybe 20 pounds of rock in one pull?).

And that was it. Jim was too smart to want to try the route and it was getting late enough that we needed to get back. So I left a chain on the one bolt and we walked out.

Since then I've become very skeptical that anyone could have climbed this pitch. I shouldn't actually say "could have." I suppose someone could have climbed it - if they were feeling crazy brave (and their second too - there is a fair amount of sideways movement on this pitch). But had someone? Why would they place a three bolt cluster only to run it out 50 or 60 more feet to the ledge near the top of Crackaphobia? Clint saw the three pins atop Crackaphobia when he and John did it, but what about the old bolt or two to the left of those pins? He didn't recall anything about them. Are they a remnant from a first ascent of the pitch I was trying to do? But why place that/those bolts (through binos I'm fairly sure it is two bolts) and not place anything below, between the three-bolt cluster and these up higher? Maybe "they" did place a bolt between these and I just haven't been able to see it from anywhere I've been able to look the climb over?

I don't know the answer to these questions. But, if there aren't more bolts than are shown on my topo, then I am pretty damn sure that that pitch hasn't been climbed before.

And there's one more, newer clue in the mystery, one that Mucci is trying to help me with. He's talked with his friend/partner Steve, and Steve may have done Crackaphobia as an aid climb years before Clint and John did it as a free route. Could that explain the three fixed pins that were there when Crackaphobia was done?

More on this later.

MUCCI

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2013, 03:55:02 PM »
Just talked to Steve again about crackaphobia.

He said he is pretty sure he did not aid the crack.

However, he did mention drilling the 1st pitch of son of dawn direct solo.  He thought SOD wall was to be an FA.

It had already been climbed prior to his attempt.

Shortly thereafter, he repeated sod wall, complete with the original start for its 2nd ascent.

Cool history.

Pigeon crack looks bagalaar.

Edited for clarity:

F4?

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2013, 08:23:03 PM »
We must bolt it......
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Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2013, 09:24:31 PM »
Well, when I lead it I intend to take a bolt kit. If, as I suspect, there is nothing else by way of pro above what was the three-bolt cluster (now one good bolt), then I will conclude that this pitch hasn't been climbed before and I will put in bolts on lead, finishing at the Crackaphobia anchor. If I find bolts that I haven't seen before, I will either use them, or replace them (depending on how bad they are).

I also intend to take other types of gear (pins, Tri-cams) in case they are usable.

And Josh, when you originally asked Steve if he'd climbed something in that area what did you and he have in mind? Has he climbed anything left of Son of Dawn and right of West Face? Or does he even remember (that's the trouble with people who don't keep meticulous records of every climb they do, they don't always remember   ;D  ).