Author Topic: Pigeon Crack  (Read 54361 times)

mungeclimber

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2013, 09:51:23 PM »
put Mucci's scope on the "two bolts" to make sure they are bolts, no?


it does not seem like a likely place for a rap station for something above, no?


a prior aid ascent to the iron makes the most sense to me.


good mystery and write up. TFPU!
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

F4?

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2013, 10:00:31 PM »
Please to place the bolts a reasonable distance and soft brush the good holds...if any exist.

This has been good entertainment... for a marathon work weekend.
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mynameismud

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2013, 10:12:07 PM »
. for a marathon work weekend.


I hear you.  Worked late Friday, all of Saturday and most of this morning.  Kind of funny.  The Company Christmas party was Friday evening.  Around 6 pm the place was mostly vacant, that is until you got to development.  At least half the engineers were at their desks.
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Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 07:37:21 AM »
Yesterday, with Kevin's help, I reached some definite conclusions about the route Pigeon Crack.

I am now completely certain that the route marked in the book as Pigeon Crack goes only 55 feet to what is now one good, solid bolt (the same place where I originally found three cruddy bolts and marked two bolts on the topo). I am now sure that no-one has ever climbed past this point and that the two bolts visible 50 or 55 feet farther up (also marked on the topo) have nothing to do with the first 55 feet of this climb. All of the evidence supports this conclusion, and there is no evidence that anyone has ever gone further.

I'm so sure that I've now marked the route off in my guidebook (having led this horrible section of rock now three times).

Here's what we learned and/or reinforced yesterday:

1. I'd forgotten that I'd also replaced the (quickly useless when you're leading) first bolt when I was there with Vicki.

2. This time leading to the end of the route (the end is definitely where the three-bolt cluster had been) felt only like 5.7 "X" on very loose rock. I think that when Kevin followed he thought that 5.6 was about right. Either way it is very loose and very scary.

3. There is no fixed pro between there and the upper two bolts marked on the topo. And there isn't any rock good enough to take pins or clean pro (at least not that I could see, and I could see pretty well). These upper bolts are 50 or more feet up and right from the end of the route. The rock between the end of the route and these two bolts is horrific. We both found the first ten feet of this section (we both did this part and then retreated back to the one good bolt/three bolt cluster/end of the route position) to be terrible climbing, very loose and scary. It didn't get better in the 40 feet above that to the upper two bolts.

4. Among the several reasons to conclude that no-one had gone further is the amount of loose crap (large and small) above the end point. The scar where I'd pulled off a huge chunk is about 18 inches by two feet. Any climber who had passed this point would have had to pull much of this off (if only in testing "holds").
 
5. When I led further, I reached a poor stance and started to drill (convinced utterly by then that no-one had climbed beyond there). And then I realized that - if I placed a bolt - I'd be doing a first ascent and that this passage of rock was absolutely not worth climbing. I stopped drilling and retreated. No-one should ever climb higher than what is clearly the end of the route.

6. I think that whoever did do this climb must have intended to go further (maybe to do the whole of Pigeon Crack as shown in Gagner's book). But when they reached the spot that is their high-point, they realized that they were wasting their time, put in three hasty bolts and bailed.

7. So what of the two bolts visible up and right from the end of this route (it is two, they can both be seen from the highest point we reached)? The position of these two bolts has nothing to do with the route we were on and everything to do with the three fixed pinns that Clint and John found at the top of Crackaphobia. Lemme get some more breakfast of coffee and I'll come back to this.

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 08:02:36 AM »
So here's another thought about a past climber having continued past Kevin and my high-point on this route: I've repeated every route done at Pinns by Denny and Colliver. They were climbing very, very boldly at about the time that the types of bolts I found at the three-bolt cluster were in use. Although I don't think they had anything to do with Pigeon Crack, they are a good example of bold, bold climbing from about the right time period.

There's no way that they or anyone else who had a bolt kit along (and whoever placed the three bolts obviously did have one) would have climbed that remaining, terrible 50 or so feet of rock without placing something (after all they'd just placed three bolts!).

cobbledik

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2013, 09:27:20 AM »
There were definite stances between the bolt and anchors but no bolts. There was tons of loose and flexing rock that wouldn't have survived any proper FA unless the person was incredibly careful and lucky.

I've got photos I'll post later.

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2013, 10:26:19 AM »
So, what about the two upper bolts shown on the topo (they're around 15 feet left of, and slightly lower than the Crackaphobia anchor? There is a broken-up, narrow ledge between those two bolts and the Crackaphobia anchor. I originally concluded that these two bolts were part of a longer Pigeon Crack "first pitch." Now I am sure I was wrong. Here's why:

8. Why would a climber go from the three-bolt cluster, up over 50 feet of absolutely shit rock (with some stances though) only to stop and put in two more bolts on this ledge? It makes no sense.

9. Instead, picture someone leading Crackaphobia as an aid climb years before its first free ascent by Clint and John. Such an ascent would clearly explain the three fixed pins that Clint found.

10. Then look at the Crackaphobia topos (the one in the 2007 book and Clint's original topo - his original can be found in David Rubine's 1995 guide). David Harden and I tried Crackaphobia in 2006 before the book came out. We thought it was really hard and fairly run out and we didn't' finish it - our retreat 'biner has been in place ever since our attempt. Dave and I also concluded that the Pigeon Turd Trough that Clint showed on his original was class three, but that the distance from it's top to the base of Crackaphobia's actual start was class four, not class three. My topo shows this difference. Then, at the top of the topo, and just like Clint's original, mine shows a 90 foot distance from the top of Crackaphobia to the top of the class four/bottom of Crackaphobia's actual fifth class climbing. But, for some reason I omitted information on my topo that Clint had on his: it is also 165 feet down from the Crackaphobia top anchor to the bottom of Pigeon Turd Trough (i.e. to rappel to a walking point instead of to a point where one would have to down climb the class four and the trough).

11. An aid ascent of what is now Crackaphobia would have been done back when the standard rope length was either 45 or 50 meters. More likely it was done long enough ago that 45 meter (150 foot) ropes were used.

12. Such ropes would not have been long enough to allow a convenient rap back to the ground.

13. If such ascentionists planned on making a bolt anchor for their new route (instead of rappelling from fixed pitons), why not move left on the ledge some? An anchor there allows a much, much shorter rappel (one can rap from the two bolts to a point well up on the ramp that leads to the start of the West Face and to the top of the route Beyond Destiny). Such a rap would be desirable with 45 meter ropes. I haven't measured the distance, but a rap from those two bolts might even allow a single rope rappel with a 50 meter rope (down and left to the same ramp leading to the start of the West Face).

14. I have concluded that those two bolts were left from an earlier, aid ascent of what is now Crackaphobia.

15. As stated above, I have also concluded that no person has ever climbed the Pigeon Crack pitch that I marked in the book, and that the route Pigeon Crack is just the 55 foot long, 5.6 X that I've now led three times.

End of long-winded, but fun explanation, and end of long-lasting but fun investigation.

JC w KC redux

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2013, 11:14:02 AM »
Do I have to climb this route to maintain my status?
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Atomizer

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2013, 11:26:13 AM »
This discussion went way over my head.... Just tell me how many stars it gets.

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2013, 11:57:55 AM »
Do I have to climb this route to maintain my status?

I would never, ever encourage someone to climb a route like this.

Your status would never be affected by doing or not doing this climb .

If you did decide to do it, it might be nice to put a second bolt in alongside my replacement; a two modern bolt anchor instead of the original three crud bolts. On the other hand it might not be worth the metal; you think anyone else is ever gonna do it?

Aaron McDonald

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2013, 12:02:07 PM »
JC on aid? Kathy would never approve!

JC w KC redux

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2013, 12:14:03 PM »
JC on aid? Kathy would never approve!

It's not an aid climb.
One wheel shy of "normal"

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2013, 12:30:37 PM »
This discussion went way over my head.... Just tell me how many stars it gets.

It isn't over your head, that's not the issue.

The issue is that it's a long, long writing, and nobody reads long writings that are on the internet.

You didn't read it all and that's normal. If I'd printed it out you would have read it.

So, take this away: There's a route at a place called Pinnacles that is erroneously depicted in the guidebook, but that's OK, 'cause it sucks big time, it's obscure, and because you're too smart to ever want to do it.

cobbledik

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #33 on: December 12, 2013, 01:03:23 PM »
Pictures!
Here's the link to the entire album where you can get full resolution images if you want to poke around in the pixels.:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111001858119976450058/PigeonCrackNov2013?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCNLLw83XgoCGLg&feat=directlink

Select images
















JC w KC redux

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2013, 02:03:13 PM »
I'm always amazed at how the camera underestimates the angle.
That is some scary looking oatmeal in the last few!
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mynameismud

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2013, 02:25:27 PM »
Atomizer

to answer your question.
5.11 one star
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MUCCI

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2013, 03:46:23 PM »
Worst route at pinnacles?

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2013, 03:50:49 PM »
Worst route at pinnacles?

Just like there is no one "best pizza," there isn't any one "worst route at Pinnacles."

In my opinion this one is on the short list though. The really short list.  ;)

mungeclimber

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2013, 03:59:45 PM »


This pic makes it look kinda good.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

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Re: Pigeon Crack
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2013, 04:02:06 PM »


This pic makes it look kinda good.

Yeah, good. Especially where that huge chunk of rock just pulled right out   ;D

Are you bored again?