Reinforcements

[Atomizer]

So how do people feel about the reinforcement of loose holds at the pinnacles?

After climbing Ranger Bolts last year Dave Allfrey noticed the huge knob that serves as the rest before the final bulge was loose. Dave suggested I slip some glue behind there to secure it. When I returned to the spot a few months ago I could feel the knob moving to the point that I could have ripped it off with an outward pull.  The loss of this hold would surely make the route 5.13 B or C. As a historical Bay Area route this would be quite a loss.

Gluing is usually a practice which is usually confined to Sport Crags being developed with the goal of creating really good routes. Obviously this is a practice which is prolific in places like Europe and an area near... Sonora. I know for a fact that the hardest route in the world has glue securing the crux holds from breaking off and rendering the route completely impossible. In those locations it is acceptable. When done well the practice is invisible. Especially when SIKA Anchor Fix, which has a rock like texture, is used and disguised with natural substances collected from the area. But I have seen it done in a real awful manner too where the holds have broken off and you crimp the glue that remains.

I know that there are number of quality 2 and 3 star climbs in Bear Gulch that have reinforced holds. The practice was fairly widespread in the area during the late 80's and early 90's. I'm not sure if those previous actions should make the practice a historic and ethically justifiable action. I asked the question of a dozen people who would be capable of actually climbing Ranger Bolts and 9 out of 10 supported the suggested action.

The community which surrounds this forum is rooted in the traditional ethics of Pinnacles. But there are many climbers who climb high end routes at The Pinnacles who don't care to have a voice here. Many of those folks would support reinforcement if a route is likely to be rendered unclimbable if a breakage occurred. So the voice of this forum isn't necessarily the consensus.

But where do you draw the line? I don't believe routes would be put up with extensive glue on them, but that a few strategic holds would be saved for future generations to climb the original vision. Ranger Bolts is the benchmark 5.13A in the Bay Area. Another example of a lesser known route is Gorillas in the Moss. It has been stated that there is a crucial handhold that should not be used for feet. The route would be impossible at 5.12 or maybe even 5.14 without this hold.

Just throwing the idea out there as I don't want to have any secrets.

[JC w KC redux]

I'll leave my opinion a secret as I think you already know what I'll say.

[clink]

Take a picture of it to document it. If it is reinforced, is the glue visible?

There is a 12a(5.11) at Lyme Desease at CR.  The epoxy is ugly and not needed to do the moves. That is my only experience with glue.

A key hold on the first pitch of Machete Direct was loose 9 years ago. If it goes the rating would too.

[Atomizer]

Take a picture of it to document it. If it is reinforced, is the glue visible?

I can't show you a picture because I've never been able to locate which holds were glued. Also I wouldn't want to incriminate some respected people.

[karl]

This debate can go on and on and on, but there are two major issues to consider.

First, if the climb just get a little harder, then it's not the end of the world. Most hard climbs tend to get harder as they get older. The only place that I know of the improves as holds fall off (out) is Maple Canyon.

Second, my biggest concern is what would you glue it to? The truth is that behind that hold is probably a lot of dried mud. When we worked on "West of the Sun", we tugged and stomped on anything that was big. Some massive stuff ripped off leaving what I can only describe as mud acting as some sort of mortar. I hate to say that the hold on Ranger Bolts may have the same situation.  You could try pouring gallons of water behind it, following that up with a muriatic acid solution, then more water. But, given what we saw, I am less than hopeful.

Just something to think about.

[Aaron McDonald]

Interesting conundrum.  Routes are altered by the very act of climbing, especially true at Pinnacles. Cannot say I have thought much about this topic but, from the perspective you bring Atom, it seems to be worth consideration.  Time will eventually erase the routes anyway.  Maybe this is similar to putting rap stations in on the Machete Descent route? We discussed that topic at length seemed like the consensus was to install the rap stations and to try and preserve the deteriorating surroundings and addressing safety concerns.  Wouldn't this be considered a preservation effort?  

[JC w KC redux]

Interesting conundrum. 

[F4?]

Glued holds on Discovery wall? My virgin eyes!!

They could have re-enforced just about all the holds on Verdict. That sucker has shed a few holds over the years.
Oh, wait, the glue-ins have stabilized the route! Whew.

[mynameismud]

Well it (RB) is on my hit list and I have tried several dozen times.  I have gotten all the moves clean and gotten to the dyno clean.  I have managed that move but never linked sections.  I have mixed thoughts on gluing.  I have seen holds that have been glued where it was not really noticeable and and I have seen holds glued where it looked like they were trying to create a hold using glue.  The first does not really bother me.

My one worry here is that the glue would end up failing because what the glue is holding will not hold.  Then it just becomes a mess.  I think I do know of one glue reinforced hold but I will keep that to myself.  Well there is that stuff on way below the direct and that mess is an argument against glue.

I have also seen routes go from within reach to not really within reach.  Zippity Do Dah is one example.  It does not really bother me to much.  I might be able to get that on TR but I think leading it probably will never happen.  ( who knows I may never get back into shape ).

The one catch and this is almost always the case is someone goes and glues or whatever takes the time, is thoughtful and does a real good job.  Then someone else finds out and uses that as justification to do some hack job.  Then does everything in their power to hold that rule that is now a law to them.  So ultimately my thoughts on the matter are a bit mixed.

I definitely would not want to see gluing become a standard.

[JC w KC redux]

I like the way Brad is ignoring this thread.

[mungeclimber]

No fucking glue.

send it or don't.

No fucking glue.

it's fucking illegal, unnecessary and Pinnacles isn't a quarry.

[mynameismud]

  illegal?  Not arguing for it, but I think illegal might be a stretch.  It can be very unsightly at which point the Park might take a stance.

It would really bother me if some day someone put up a route and glued a half dozen of the holds on (reinforced) then said, hey look at this great route.  With that, I just might have to go dig around and see if I still have a hammer.

[Brad Young]

No fucking glue.

send it or don't.

No fucking glue.

it's fucking illegal, unnecessary and Pinnacles isn't a quarry.

[Brad Young]

And if that's not particularly clear, maybe it's time to take up bowling instead?

[clink]

Mortar?
Bolt through it? Or have Kinder or Sharma rerate the route when the hold blows. 

Are glue in bolts legal?

[JC w KC redux]

I like carrots!

[Aaron McDonald]

Chest thumbing is soooo cute.

Guess this is not the forum to ask any type controversial questions.

[Brad Young]

...Guess this is not the forum to ask any type controversial questions.

It's a fine forum for all types of controversial questions.

That is, unless the asker is afraid of controversial answers.

[clink]

Aaron, back off on the rogaine. You are cute.

[Aaron McDonald]

Aaron, back off on the rogaine. You are cute.

Rogaine??? Heck no! Hair Club for Men is the only thing that really works.