Author Topic: A Few Perfect Words  (Read 21502 times)

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
A Few Perfect Words
« on: October 02, 2014, 05:29:13 PM »
Most of the people on this site know me. Most of you know that I have a strong, life long interest in military history. An interest like this is hard to explain (it's kinda like explaining a passion for climbing to a non-climber).

War is, after all, about horror, and destruction and hate. It is almost literally the very, very worst of human nature. But, conversely, war is also often about the best of human nature. Like themes of horror, themes of heroism, sacrifice and love of fellow humans run through the story of war too. Anyone who has read about Joshua Lawrence Chamberlin at Gettysburg in 1863, about Chief Josef of the Nez Perce; any student of the Duke of Wellington, Winston Churchill, the Duke of Marlborough, Saburo Sakai, George Patton and endless other named and nameless human beings can be astounded at what war has brought out in humans pushed to the absolute limit of humanity. The genius. The determination. Even the eloquence.

This thread has nothing to do with climbing. It is off topic. It proves that I am a hopeless and pathetic nerd. It will interest no one on this site.

And yet posting this is harmless; so I forge ahead.

I was recently reminded of an event such as those I describe above. It involved Dwight Eisenhower, when he was the Commander in Chief of all the Allied forces in Europe in World War Two. In reading (again) about these events from 1944 and 1945, I was struck utterly at how one man can say something that is short, to the point and perfect for the occasion. It goes like this:

Several months before the Allied invasion of France ("D-Day"), Eisenhower was appointed to his position as Supreme Commander of Allied forces in Europe. He knew that the invasion would be hard; that there was no certainty of success. He was given one short, direct and simple order by the Combined British/American Chiefs of Staff. He was ordered to:

"Enter the continent of Europe and, in conjunction with the other United Nations, undertake operations aimed at the heart of Germany and the destruction of her armed forces."

Such a simple sentence. But over 40 million people had already died in this European war, and before the Allied forces brought Germany to her knees, another 10 million would follow. Fifty million dead (with countless more wounded and taken prisoner).

Eleven months after the invasion of Normandy, Germany was on her knees. Most of the country was already conquered, her armies were scattered, disorganized, ill-equiped, and, mostly, dead. Tens and tens of thousands of American, British and other Allied soldiers had also died in those eleven months. Adolf Hitler committed suicide in late April, 1945. He was succeeded as leader of Germany by Admiral Karl Doenitz. Sensibly, Doenitz sought peace as quickly as he could after taking over leadership of what was left of the German nation. The initial German surrender took place at Eisenhower's headquarters on May 7, 1945.

The war was over. Now to get the word out. How to tell the Chiefs of Staff and then the press and the world?

Eisenhower's staff were almost beside themselves about what to say. Everything they'd worked for, all the death and destruction that had been inflicted, the resources wasted. It was all over. The staff (generals mostly) composed cables that were more and more verbose. Each draft was more grandiloquent, more congratulatory than the last.

Finally, Eisenhower had had enough. He politely thanked his lieutenants and then dictated the message himself. He said:

"The mission of this Allied force was fulfilled at 0241, local time, May 7, 1945. Eisenhower."

A few perfect words.



mungeclimber

  • PermaBan
  • ***
  • Posts: 6665
    • http://www.sonorapassclimbing.com
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2014, 06:13:10 PM »
The potential comparison to GW's "Mission Accomplished" media parade and tail wagging is not lost.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2014, 06:23:29 PM »

The potential comparison to GW's "Mission Accomplished" media parade and tail wagging is not lost.


I hadn't even thought of that comparison.

clink

  • Meanderthal
  • ****
  • Posts: 4004
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2014, 06:25:34 PM »
 Brad, great post.

 Climbing a difficult route, is in a way, a faux battle.

 I have felt that climbing, training and enduring the hardship it at times brings was good preparation for the adversity of war. Further, that the bonds built between climbers are similar in nature to those shared by soldiers. Not to diminish the terrors of war by comparing them to a recreational sport, but in the peace we enjoy, this activity helps one understand a little of what those in military service must withstand.  

 What do you think?
Causing trouble when not climbing.

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2014, 06:41:11 PM »

...Further, that the bonds built between climbers are similar in nature to those shared by soldiers.


I absolutely agree. Study after study after study has found that the vast majority of soldiers don't fight for their country, or for God, or for their mothers or apple pie. Their fight (at least in the "immediate now" sense) is for their brother and sister soldiers who are right there with them. Their squad and maybe up to their platoon.

Quote

...Not to diminish the terrors of war by comparing them to a recreational sport, but in the peace we enjoy, this activity helps one understand a little of what those in military service must withstand.


No, of course war and recreation aren't directly comparable. But there is a significant and important component that they both share: I firmly believe that a certain percentage of humans need/seek/benefit from being around danger. Some call the type "thrill seekers." I think I fit in the category (although the phrase "thrill seeker" is pretty nauseating to me). Being exposed to such danger can be life affirming and life altering (and too it can be life ending - but that's not the point of what I am saying).

War and climbing both provide/allow/require that exposure to danger. Both can create a strong bond with other people ("a bond forged in fire" is a phrase I've heard).

How lucky are we, the vast majority of Americans that we have the time, the wealth and yes the safety that, if we want danger, we can seek it out on our own terms. How fortunate we are to experience what is mostly perceived danger, instead of having no choice and no way out as has been the fate of so many in human history.


mynameismud

  • unworthy
  • Posts: 5972
    • Mudncrud
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2014, 08:00:46 PM »
good thread.
Here's to sweat in your eye

mungeclimber

  • PermaBan
  • ***
  • Posts: 6665
    • http://www.sonorapassclimbing.com
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2014, 08:21:04 PM »
Having just purchased Tora Tora Tora, can we turn to Japans' entry?  What was the overarching plan that an attack on Pearl would bring about?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mungeclimber

  • PermaBan
  • ***
  • Posts: 6665
    • http://www.sonorapassclimbing.com
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2014, 08:37:36 PM »
To sink the carriers? Thereby maintain naval and air superiority in the pacific? No plan to invade the mainland? Just own the Philippines?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2014, 08:45:11 PM »
That's seriously one of the very best war movies ever made. They actually built 1/4 and 1/10 scale models of the major ships for the film shoot. Then they destroyed most of them by re-enacting the real thing. Somewhere I have photos of the "Battleship Arizona" in harbor, with movie riggers wading in the water next to it, adjusting its position.

And the Japanese aircraft in the movie (Zeros, Kates and Vals) were painstakingly reconstructed/modified out of old surplus Air Force AT-6 Texans. I saw some of them flying at the Reno air races back when I went to that in the early '70s with my dad.

The question of Japan's entry/plan/expectations is extremely complex, but I'd be willing to try it in three sentences:

1. They invaded China (in 1931 and 1937), then later took what had been French Indochina (in 1940) and we reacted by trying to punish/isolate/embargo them.

2. By 1941 our attempts at isolating the Japanese were succeeding; Japan was quickly heading to desperate economic straights (they had six months worth of oil and - due to our embargoes - had little prospect of getting more); we'd painted them into a corner because of their world altering atrocities.

3. They intended to "blitzkrieg" across the Pacific and into the Indian Ocean, secure their conquests and then sit back and let us make peace overtures once they'd bloodied our noses, keeping of course, after the peace, much of what they'd conquered.

OK, so the sentences run on a little.

Speaking of the Japanese, it still shocks me how little most westerners know of what they did to China. I guarantee that all of you have heard of the Jewish Holocaust in Europe. And I'll bet not one of you has heard of the Japanese rape of Nanking in 1937.

A conquering Japanese army was let loose on the then-captitol of China in a week-long frenzy of rape, murder and looting. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese were murdered. That's not a typo. Since Nanking was the capitol of China for a few years then, Western embassies were located there. There are many nearly unbelievable, but also totally creditable accounts by embassy staff of the atrocities, of Japanese soldiers doing things like (literally, you can't make this up) throwing Chinese babies into the air and catching them on bayonets.

And you wonder why the Chinese carry a grudge?

Why haven't Westerners heard about this event? Is it because it was in deep Asia? I personally think it is because it was in 1937 and so much that came after was also so horrific that events then were just overshadowed and forgotten (but as I stated above, the Chinese haven't forgotten).

Like I wrote: "[war] is almost literally the very, very worst of human nature."


mungeclimber

  • PermaBan
  • ***
  • Posts: 6665
    • http://www.sonorapassclimbing.com
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2014, 09:39:04 PM »
Thx BY, the embargoes help explain a lot.

Most of us have seen movies about the events in 37, but it isn't kept front of mind that is true.

Every politic has a history.



Ps watching the last of the bombing scene now. I have been at the Arizona memorial. Devastating attack.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

  • unworthy
  • Posts: 5972
    • Mudncrud
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2014, 10:30:58 PM »
I have read the book on Nanking.   I have also read well over a dozen books on the history of China and the Pacific theater.  The Japanese were absolutely brutal and it also happened in area's other than Nanking.  I think another reason it got a bit less media attention was because, after all, they were Asians.  We were a fairly prejudiced lot back then.  

From what I understand ( and this is very limited ) the were two agendas for Hawaii.  One was to hit the harbor and the other which probably would have from a tactical point of view done more damage, was to hit the fuel depots.  The Japanese were suppose to hit the harbor and the air strips then come back for a second sortie and hit the fuel depots.   There was over a years worth of fuel there ( there were several across the Island ) and if the Japanese had hit those it would have actually done more damage to the Island and it would have forced the US Pacific Fleet to either come all the way back to the mainland or go to one of the Australian Ports.  Hitting the depots would have set us back significantly in retaking Midway.

That is my understanding.

I think the reason some of the East Coast Chinese are so dam tough is they lived through the Russians, the Germans, the Japanese and Mao.  I can understand why the Chinese were so bitter about the behavior of some of the Allies.  They had gone through so much.  The Allies felt a bit entitled because of the same reason ( they had just defeated the Japanese ).

Edit:  Mao was just getting started at this point and the US defeating the Japanese removed that obstacle. 

Wild Swans is a good book if you get a chance.
Here's to sweat in your eye

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2014, 05:09:48 AM »

... I have been at the Arizona memorial. Devastating attack.


Vicki and I went out to the Arizona memorial when we first went to Hawaii. It was a quiet day with some clouds. There were very few of us on the boat leading out to what's left of the ship.

I studied the ship's hulk, still sitting where it had been sunk on Battleship Row. I spent a lot of time reading the names of the crew members who had died with the Arizona on that horrible December day.

Then I went to the back of the memorial. That's where I started crying, reading the names of the men who had survived the sinking, gone on with their lives, but then opted to be interred after death, on the Arizona, with their shipmates who'd died there. One can only imagine the thoughts that must have had led to such a decision.

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2014, 05:41:51 AM »

I have read the book on Nanking.  I have also read well over a dozen books on the history of China and the Pacific theater.


Given some of the books I've seen you reading, I'm not at all surprised that you've read of Nanking. And no, it wasn't an isolated event at all, just a particularly obnoxious part of the "normal" Japanese conduct in their conquest and occupation of China.

I said above that it is easy to understand why the Chinese hold a grudge. But, although it is easy to understand, I wish they wouldn't. People change, societies change. Evil always lurks beneath the surface in any people, but we're talking a human lifetime ago. I wish they would let it go. Whole societies in the Middle East have made nursing grudges a way of life. How far has that gotten them toward peace and prosperity?

Quote

From what I understand ( and this is very limited ) the were two agendas for Hawaii.  One was to hit the harbor and the other which probably would have from a tactical point of view done more damage, was to hit the fuel depots.  The Japanese were suppose to hit the harbor and the air strips then come back for a second sortie and hit the fuel depots.   There was over a years worth of fuel there ( there were several across the Island ) and if the Japanese had hit those it would have actually done more damage to the Island and it would have forced the US Pacific Fleet to either come all the way back to the mainland or go to one of the Australian Ports.  Hitting the depots would have set us back significantly in retaking Midway.


Actually there were two waves of Japanese aircraft, and it was the third wave that was supposed to hit the naval fuel silos. That third wave would have been devastating (also) for all the reasons you describe. But the Japanese Admiral Nagumo lost his nerve - remember that no American carriers had been at Pearl and the Japanese had no idea where they were. He could just imagine that they were out there in the northern Pacific, waiting to launch a counterattack against his fleet, against the six carriers that were the core of Japanese naval strength. So he opted not to reload the first wave aircraft and cancelled the third wave (it had been optional to start with).

It was a terrible mistake though. He was cautious and conventional in his thinking about Japan's fleet (remember that a country can't build new aircraft carriers overnight). But Japan wasn't going to win by fighting a cautious and conventional war - their only (slight, slender) chance at achieving some of their war goals would have been to go all out in every way at every chance.

Nagumo wasn't alone in this type of thinking. Three years later, at the battle of Leyte Gulf,  the Japanese Admiral Kurita turned  his forces back just when they were on the verge of inflicting what would have been the very, very worst defeat in U.S. history (all U.S. history - naval and land combat included). If he had been willing to go for absolute broke he could have totally destroyed the U.S. invasion fleet off the Philippines (the impact of that destruction would have been like 20 Pearl Harbors).

mungeclimber

  • PermaBan
  • ***
  • Posts: 6665
    • http://www.sonorapassclimbing.com
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2014, 08:12:26 AM »
Quote
war goals

when you say war goals, do you see them as affirmative colonizing efforts in the broader pacific, or just near territory? What would be the broadest possible sphere of control they could have maintained in post WWII posture, if outcomes of 'all out' strategies had been used and succeeded?

e.g. how much raw material for the war effort could have been pulled from mainland China to support expansionist plans?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2014, 08:38:21 AM »
when you say war goals, do you see them as affirmative colonizing efforts in the broader pacific, or just near territory? What would be the broadest possible sphere of control they could have maintained in post WWII posture, if outcomes of 'all out' strategies had been used and succeeded?

e.g. how much raw material for the war effort could have been pulled from mainland China to support expansionist plans?


The whole Japanese war effort was designed to acquire resources, at the time China was a poor source of raw material.

Within six months of December 7, 1941, the Japanese attacked and took British Burma and Malaya (known especially for huge mineral resources), the Dutch East Indies (oil, oil and more oil; at Balikpapan Borneo the oil came out of the ground so light and pure that it could be put right into ship's bunkers as fuel with no other refining), the Philippines (resources and a "stepping stone" to the south), and many islands in the middle of the Pacific (defensible space). Huge, huge conquests.

I don't know that the Japanese ever really figured out ahead of time what they would "settle for" in the event of a negotiated peace (which would have been a "win" for them).

mynameismud

  • unworthy
  • Posts: 5972
    • Mudncrud
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2014, 08:48:25 AM »
Another costly mistake for the Japanese was not using their subs to their fullest extend.  If they Japanese had used their subs as well as we used ours we would have been in trouble.
Here's to sweat in your eye

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2014, 09:55:35 AM »

Another costly mistake for the Japanese was not using their subs to their fullest extend.  If they Japanese had used their subs as well as we used ours we would have been in trouble.


I agree and I disagree. The Japanese used their subs a lot and exactly as foreseen by their pre-war submarine doctrine. That doctrine required using subs to fight with (in support of) their fleet - to atrite an enemy force before, during and after battles between the main enemy fleets. Their subs performed aggressively and well this way (among many other successes, their subs finished off the U.S. carrier Yorktown at Midway, and sunk outright the U.S. carrier Wasp off Guadalcanal).

But your point is huge. This doctrine was probably bad. If the Japanese had used at least some of their subs like the Germans used their U-Boats, to attack Allied supply ships, it would have dramatically affected the war. Attacking the extremely long supply and convoy routes in the Pacific would have resulted in lost supply ships and lost supplies. More critically it would have required the U.S. to heavily escort such ships. The resultant drain on the navy would have been just enormous (ships on escort can't directly fight the enemy).


mynameismud

  • unworthy
  • Posts: 5972
    • Mudncrud
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2014, 10:35:09 AM »
The doctrine was bad.  If they had a dozen subs as effective and the Tang and the Wahoo we would have been screwed.  The survival story of the Tang is I think my all time favorite WWII survival book.  Well that and Unbroken.
Here's to sweat in your eye

Brad Young

  • Grand Master
  • ***
  • Posts: 6664
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2014, 04:34:40 PM »
One hundred years ago men were dying in Europe at an appalling pace. World war had broken out at the end of July ("World War One," although it wasn't called that really, until much later).

Austria declared war on Serbia on July 28th. General declarations of war followed by Germany, France and Russia. The French, and the Russians, both eager to get at their traditional German enemy, attacked early. The Germans defended against Russia (until Tannenberg) and attacked France with a sweeping right wing through neutral Luxembourg and Belgium to get to the "easier" parts of France and knock her out of the war quickly ("the Schlieffen Plan"). The German's blatant violation of these neutral countries brought Britain in on the side of France and Russia.

Almost all Europeans expected a short war. Glorious attack, victory, and then "home by Christmas." It didn't work out that way though. Rapid fire artillery, the mobility allowed by railroads, and the horrible, horrible concentrated fire of the machine gun, among other new weapons, allowed huge armies to clash with utterly indecisive results. Especially the machine gun.

Old tactics suited to the days of muskets led to waves and waves of infantry soldiers being literally mowed down while they charged in completely ineffective attacks (this was before the armies had entrenched). By Autumn the small pre-war British Army was almost totally destroyed. Whole school classes of German soldiers died at the same time, together, their system having inducted all the men of one town or county into single military units. In their turn too, the French suffered hundreds of thousands of casualties in weeks (weeks) as they pursued "Offensive à outrance," the offensive "at all costs." At all costs indeed; nearly an entire generation of young French men would die in four short years.

Words like "'unspeakable carnage" and "generals that were no better than donkeys" were spoken in later years. But meanwhile, in 1914 the slaughter continued without pause.

By 1918 tens of millions had died. Entire countries were shattered. Empires began falling. And really all of old Europe had died. Never again would trust in government, love of country, deference to superiors, and blind patriotism reach the levels seen in the pre-war summer of 1914. Not ever. Not close.

Among the European leaders, the old aristocracy, the royalty, and of course the military leaders, very few saw it coming. Most fully expected that the "home by Christmas" slogan would be real. Perhaps a few British leaders had the clearest view. Although, like almost all European cities on the eve of war, those of Britain were filled with cheering, wildly enthusiastic, blood-lust-filled masses, several of her leaders were most, most reluctant to go to war. The violation of Belgium (it was called a "rape" then) really left Britain little choice; she'd guaranteed Belgium's sovereignty and hundreds of years of foreign policy meant she had to fight any attempt by one power (Germany, in 1914) to dominate the European continent.

Among these reluctant, but firm British leaders was Edward Grey. Edward Grey, "First Viscount Grey of Fallodon." Grey was Britain's Foreign Minister as the decision about war was made. He didn't want it, but knew too that Britain had no choice. He voted for war, but he also saw truly and clearly what was coming.

Shortly before Britain declared war on Germany (on Aug. 4, 1914) Grey spoke with an acquaintance about the coming inevitable; he famously captured the tragedy with a few perfect words:

"The lamps are going out all over Europe," he said. "We shall not see them lit again in our lifetime."




clink

  • Meanderthal
  • ****
  • Posts: 4004
Re: A Few Perfect Words
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2014, 06:32:21 AM »
Martha was at an Elton John concert in Sacramento, last week...
(Hey - this is Martha. I will express it to you as I experienced it Brad and M.O.M.) He came on strong with a few well known hits but then stopped all of the crowd with a few minutes of dialogue about World War 1. He  went on to introduce and play a song he had written early on and made a tribute to all of our men and women sacrificing their own safety and lives to protect us. He asked us all to honor our soldiers and saluted the USA. Incredible , take your breath away moments.... After the crowd applauded louder and longer than for any of the previous songs. Elton seemed choked up as he left the stage for a few minutes. The crowd kept clapping until they noticed he walked back in. Extremely moving and unforgettable experience.

 

 
Causing trouble when not climbing.