New Route Discussion: What is good/valid etc.

[Brad Young]

Charles,

I disagree. There is no growing trend. Human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years. Seeing some sort of bleak darkness in that nature now is pointless, and, in my opinion objectively wrong. People are people and they always will be.

When I was in college a million years ago I made up a saying that goes like this: "90% of the people in the world are assholes; so focus on the 10%." What you just typed above makes me think that you intend to focus on the 90%. If I may give you a bit of advice (I am, after all, much older than you), that's not a very good way to find happiness in life.

And BTW, I think Supertopo isn't what it used to be in large part because of people who do just that - they focus on the 90% (maybe they belong to the 90% too, I don't know).

Anyway, to be specific to this forum, while I have no problem with your "getting thoughts out," I'll tell you bluntly that you could do it, at least here on this board, in a much more constructive and positive way. People would listen and would discuss your thoughts if you approached them with respect, and if treated them as equals. Why be negative and nasty instead of looking for friendly discourse among people who share what are obviously some of your biggest enjoyments and passions?

[clink]

 Tobin Sorenson, he ran it out in SLO. One of his routes reminds me of Mr. Mud's and a few of Aaron's FA leads.
He departed this world so young, bold as they come. I was able to put eyes on one of Mud's FA solo's last week. He must have been in the "zone".

 30 or so years ago, Robbins ended up in a bad situation on Indirect Traverse. He accepted a rope a teenage partner of mine who was up on top. That was an eye opener for me. I hear Robbins is turning 80, bold as hell, yet wise enough to know when he was having an off day.

 Climbing for a lifetime is what I aim to do. Climbing within this community is a privilege I highly value. I have found much of what I was searching for in friends, climbing and life among this group of Pinnacles climbers.

 
 

[kylequeener]

 Climbing for a lifetime is what I aim to do. Climbing within this community is a privilege I highly value. I have found much of what I was searching for in friends, climbing and life among this group of Pinnacles climbers.

 
 

I like this.

There have been some funny characters in the Pinnacles community. Run-ins with Chris Bellizzi have always been entertaining and enjoyable. My time climbing with Brad and Gavin has been very enjoyable and I look up to you guys a lot in regards to new routes. I've had some very awesome times climbing with Charles. I've not yet climbed with Munge but I enjoy our online conversations and stoke for climbing. I've climbed with Jim Thornburg more than a few times there as well and its always a good time. I've very grateful to feel like a part of this community.

When I was in college a million years ago I made up a saying that goes like this: "90% of the people in the world are assholes; so focus on the 10%."

I like this too. But to propose 90% of people are assholes is a little cynical and too big of a number for me to agree with.

I like to cut people up and separate what I like about them from what I don't like about them (figuratively of course). Then I just focus on what I like about them. So even if only 10% of that person is likable, I'm just going to focus on that 10% as best as I can and ignore the 90% I don't like. Because I believe we get back what we put in and if we put in the best parts of ourselves and show a 10%'er some kindness he or she will at some point will respond positively. And who knows, maybe they'll grow to be less of an asshole.

Luckily the people in this community have more likable qualities to them than less likable qualities, so really you're all making this really easy on me.

[mynameismud]

To a certain extent I do see what Charles is saying.  When I first got into climbing it seemed to be an alternative sport.  It was not real mainstream although I did come into a bit late so it was not real uncommon either.  For the most part most of the rags were gossip columns but the larger message was adventure, boldness and really pushing one’s ability.  At the Pins there was not much a guidebook but  most of the stuff being  put up was either at the hard end of the spectrum or harder runout moderates.  Things changed as they always do.  Sport climbing became popular, Comps were vogue, bouldering became very popular, more and more folks talked about putting up “good” routes that other people would enjoy.  There was a lot of talk that bold routes were a concept for people stoking their ego although some really strong sport climbers that I met seemed to have the whole ego bit covered just fine.

So naturally routes became safer and there was also a movement to put up moderate routes.  Routes that were not cutting edge in boldness or grade difficulty.  First few times I saw that I really wondered why.  But I did see some of those area’s and routes become popular.  I also met folks that climbed the moderates and their goal or objective was not to really push much beyond that.  Some of these folks had an incredible stoke for climbing and I must admit I initially struggled with the concept.  Not that I am all that good of a climber but I had always tried to either push the number or the boldness factor in order to have fun and figured that had to be part of the game.  Now I barely climb and figure any climb is good and the route I did the other weekend was pretty low on quality and difficulty but it lasted a few pitches and I really had a good time.  Actually looking back on the last couple years I have not climbed anything that is difficult and nothing really that can be called classic but I did really enjoy the climbing.

So my perspective has changed quite a bit.  I still really admire folks that push the limit.  Love reading/hearing about bold climbs, like hearing/reading about folks pushing hard grades.  But, I also admire the current wave of stuff and what the folks are doing at the Pins.  There is a group of folks that are pushing their limit in trying to scare themselves a bit by putting up routes that go purely on stance.  Having bolted on stance a couple of times I do know most people will come down at least a couple of grades from their lead ability in order to be able to bolt on stance.  I also know it takes patience and a certain tolerance for pain.  I do not think there are a lot of guys out there that are going to hike around and try and find 5.11 routes that will go ground up, let alone ground up at the Pins.  It will happen but the Pins “ Golden Era” if you want to call it that is over. 

Perhaps my newfangled mellowed perspective is just a self-defense mechanism but for the moment it is working.  Perhaps someday I will be able to climb something on a regular basis that is more difficult than a set of stairs.  I do not know.  For the moment I rest in the bit bucket and write about what once was. 

[schrammel]

Deleted.

[Brad Young]

I find cigarette butts where only climbers tread at Pinns, what kind of fucking moron throws their cig on the ground?

I found (and was utterly disgusted at) cigarette butts squished out in the cracks on almost every belay when I did the Pacific Ocean Wall on El Cap. That was in 1987. So if you think that level of thoughtlessness by climbers is new, I think you're mistaken. Human nature (and climbers are human) hasn't changed.

Climbing has changed, the people doing it now have changed, to say otherwise is ludicrous.

I don't disagree. It has changed.

By why do you focus on the bad aspects of the change and not the good? There is at least as much good in the change as there is bad. The way I've experienced it, there's more good than bad in the changes.

And more critically, why bring nastiness and negativity to people here on this forum, solid people who are good climbers and good stewards. Are you assuming that they are part of the 90% (they aren't).

[Aaron McDonald]

I do not think there are a lot of guys out there that are going to hike around and try and find 5.11 routes that will go ground up, let alone ground up at the Pins.

Mud,

I can introduce you to a couple and they would be more than happy to bring you along (no hooks allowed).

[mungeclimber]

To a certain extent I do see what Charles is saying.  When I first got into climbing it seemed to be an alternative sport.  It was not real mainstream although I did come into a bit late so it was not real uncommon either.  For the most part most of the rags were gossip columns but the larger message was adventure, boldness and really pushing one’s ability.  At the Pins there was not much a guidebook but  most of the stuff being  put up was either at the hard end of the spectrum or harder runout moderates.  Things changed as they always do.  Sport climbing became popular, Comps were vogue, bouldering became very popular, more and more folks talked about putting up “good” routes that other people would enjoy.  There was a lot of talk that bold routes were a concept for people stoking their ego although some really strong sport climbers that I met seemed to have the whole ego bit covered just fine.

So naturally routes became safer and there was also a movement to put up moderate routes.  Routes that were not cutting edge in boldness or grade difficulty.  First few times I saw that I really wondered why.  But I did see some of those area’s and routes become popular.  I also met folks that climbed the moderates and their goal or objective was not to really push much beyond that.  Some of these folks had an incredible stoke for climbing and I must admit I initially struggled with the concept.  Not that I am all that good of a climber but I had always tried to either push the number or the boldness factor in order to have fun and figured that had to be part of the game.  Now I barely climb and figure any climb is good and the route I did the other weekend was pretty low on quality and difficulty but it lasted a few pitches and I really had a good time.  Actually looking back on the last couple years I have not climbed anything that is difficult and nothing really that can be called classic but I did really enjoy the climbing.

So my perspective has changed quite a bit.  I still really admire folks that push the limit.  Love reading/hearing about bold climbs, like hearing/reading about folks pushing hard grades.  But, I also admire the current wave of stuff and what the folks are doing at the Pins.  There is a group of folks that are pushing their limit in trying to scare themselves a bit by putting up routes that go purely on stance.  Having bolted on stance a couple of times I do know most people will come down at least a couple of grades from their lead ability in order to be able to bolt on stance.  I also know it takes patience and a certain tolerance for pain.  I do not think there are a lot of guys out there that are going to hike around and try and find 5.11 routes that will go ground up, let alone ground up at the Pins.  It will happen but the Pins “ Golden Era” if you want to call it that is over. 

Perhaps my newfangled mellowed perspective is just a self-defense mechanism but for the moment it is working.  Perhaps someday I will be able to climb something on a regular basis that is more difficult than a set of stairs.  I do not know.  For the moment I rest in the bit bucket and write about what once was. 

I don't disagree with the general idea behind this post, but want to emphasize that for the assessment of moderates above, I think you mean well protected moderates. Moderates haven't ever stopped going up as FAs. It's just many times now they are well protected when viewed through the lens of history. Bolts were hard to drill in the old days. bits would break. They were time consuming.  

However, let's focus on this for a bit. Lack of bolts on moderate terrain wasn't about pushing limits. It was about efficiency. Why drill here when I could drill close to the crux, where I'm more likely to need it. It was very subjective and self focused.  So what does that mean to be well protected? Well 20-25 foot falls used to be completely acceptable distances, absent a ledge. who hasn't had to boulder out 5.10 moves to get to a first clip 25' off the deck?  Easy 100' run outs 50' or more out that was 3 grades lower than the crux used to be fairly commonplace.

Well, I submit they still are common. Most of the sport routes in the U.S. are going up at 5.10 or harder. Are we to blame the elite for this trend, or the moderate duffer that puts in bolts where there is a comfortable spot to drill?

TD is not the same as GU though. But GU is an ethical approach, not a review of the final product.

Further, the want and need for getting some butterflies in the belly is not dead. It is part of why we climb. And if one day I'm inclined to put some bolts closer together than others, there is no ground for being chastised for it in any serious way. The proper response to closely spaced bolts, is further apart spacing on one's own routes.

 

[mynameismud]

Mud,

I can introduce you to a couple and they would be more than happy to bring you along (no hooks allowed).

I go stance when possible but clink, you know at heart I am a hooker.

[Aaron McDonald]

I go stance when possible but clink, you know at heart I am a hooker.

People can always change.  Clink ensures this change by hammering your hooks flat at the beginning of the day. Hence your days as a hooker are numbered.

[Brad Young]

…lack of bolts on moderate terrain wasn't about pushing limits. It was about efficiency. Why drill here when I could drill close to the crux, where I'm more likely to need it. It was very subjective and self focused...
 

I think this comment by Munge is:

1. Insightful (I hadn't thought of this, and Mud ignored it too);

2. Mostly correct as a historical fact.

There was however a different mindset and expectation decades ago, both at Pinns and every other location where climbs were going up (you might get called a "pussy" if you didn't run it out). But when non-bolted pro was a big maybe (before cams), that was the mindset about climbing altogether.

I started climbing when this outlook was more common, but already fading.

Without a doubt, one of the changes that has occurred in climbing is a move toward more safety. This has resulted in more routes being better protected. It's a change. So what. Does every route have to be butt-ass scary? What's wrong with some that are well protected?

Anyone who wants the scary routes can still go do them. In fact here's a list of the ones I've found most scary at Pinns (scroll down about one third of a page):

http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=2056.0

And, as Rob pointed out, anyone who wants more scary routes can go put those up even now.

[clink]

Clink ensures this change by hammering your hooks flat at the beginning of the day.

 Rubbish, I say ground up with hooks trumped leaving all those beauty routes to rap bolting. Just stance when you can. Now that is a question.

 I wonder if these guys who can pull 13s will find a route like WW on a super steep wall. Hats off if they do.

 Meanwhile our plate is full.

[mynameismud]

Actually I was a bit disingenuous, personally I do not think anyone will put up another stance only 5.11 in the Pins.  It takes quite a bit for that to come together, the individual and the climb.  The amazing thing about Jack pulling it off was, from what I know, 5.11 was his upper limit.

Munge

The lack of bolts on moderates was definitely in part because the drills and bits were not as good, but not entirely.  The bits were not as good but it was also a lot easier to put in a inch and a half quarter inch bolt than a inch and a half three eighths bolt and that standard now is 2 inches or more.  But part of it, in my opinion, was the game was just different.  The couple of guys that I climbed with that were climbing in the 70's ran it out even on gear.  I think to a certain extent those guys (and gals) had to be a bit more bold because the gear just was not as good.

I am not advocating one is better than the other.  I am just stating that I think the game has changed a bit.  I am not stating that I am in agreement with everything that has been stated.  I did state that I did understand a part of what he was trying to communicate ( perhaps anyway ).  I also stated that I thought that you guys were pushing your limits and I also tried to communicate that bolting from stance does change at what level bold starts for most people.  Heck, it altogether changes what can be bolted.

There have been well bolted moderates in the past but I personally think there is more emphasis within the community on this.  Perhaps that is solely because I associate with more people, or perhaps different people, perhaps it is simply that more people are climbing so this is more of a community to actually put up routes for.  During the 80's and 90's before the two Rubine books came out the emphasis was hard routes.  Others went up but from what I saw most were looking to put up hard routes.  Before that, most of the hard routes that went up had an element of boldness to them.  I do agree that people can still put up runout climbs but I think, in general, there will be less. Perhaps I am wrong since I have climbed very little of the climbs that have gone up in the last couple of years and the route clink and Aaron put up last year looks quite intriguing.  Again, as I have tried to communicate, I do not think having well protected moderates is a bad thing.  As I have stated more than once, some of those have become quite popular and the Flumes is a perfect example.  At that time I may not have entirely agreed with what happened there, but time has proven that the community likes those climbs.

[F4?]

Yup, Jim told me just about the same logic. Bolts were hard to get and they used what they could find....hence they used them sparingly....Now Mungie can go around the corner from his house to his local industrial fastener supply shop and pick up a case of Powers SS.

The lack of bolts on moderates was definitely in part because the drills and bits were not as good, but not entirely.  The bits were not as good but it was also a lot easier to put in a inch and a half quarter inch bolt than a inch and a half three eighths bolt and that standard now is 2 inches or more.  But part of it, in my opinion, was the game was just different.  The couple of guys that I climbed with that were climbing in the 70's ran it out even on gear.  I think to a certain extent those guys (and gals) had to be a bit more bold because the gear just was not as good.

[mynameismud]

How many people remember this anthem; When in doubt, Run it out.
 

Now, will someone setup a TR for me, Please?!

[clink]

But part of it, in my opinion, was the game was just different.

 No doubt.

 Though some recent routes have been established exactly (R/x) as the "old game" routes. On these the climbing itself dictated the commitment and danger, no place to stop and stance.

 The last bolt on WW was added after the top out on the FA. The rock quality is suspect on the final moves, Aaron used a flexing hold(it is still there) while the fall looked like a broken bone(s) if he were to come off and hit the ramp below the headwall. Later a nice hold was discovered in the gravel at the edge just above the flexing hold. To let the world know how badass(stupid?desperate?)  the FAers were that final bolt could have not been placed. The thinking was much the same as the FA artists of Foreplay adding the first bolt after the route was established.

  The quality of the climbs deserved both the style in which it was established and  prudence considering protection placements for future ascents by the community at Large.

 I resemble this final grouping more each day, and must turn the tide and find my inner Tobin.

 Some routes are admittedly shit.

 In the movie "Purge" the population has one day a year to "remove" bosses, neighbors and such. A Pinn's purge day?? To dark, I know.

 Vader. I sense the good in you.

[mynameismud]

Cannot purge all the bad routes, I would not have any left!

[JC w KC redux]

Cannot purge all the bad routes, I would not have any left!

clink is like a kid with a stick staring at a beehive - just ignore him!

[mynameismud]

but, that takes all the fun out of it.

[clink]

Tobin Groucho Marx is one of my favorites.

-Tim

Tobin hav'n fun.