Aid climbs that haven't been free climbed.

[schrammel]

Is chopping on rappel considered aid?

Charles

[kylequeener]

Is chopping on rappel considered aid?

Charles

If it's not considered aid its obviously against ethics of ground up.

I'm pretty sure if you're gonna chop a route you'll have to stick to the local ethics and go ground up.

[mungeclimber]

Not at all. Just do a good job.

But chopping is unacceptable. Pull and patch is the way to remove offensive hardware.

Wedge bolts are the hardest to pull. But often they are overdrilled on the hole so that one can hammer them in the hole and patch over. Try that first. If it doesn't work there are other ways to avoid scarring the rock.

[schrammel]

Can you stick clip though?  I think I agree with Ky, gotta go ground up... gotta have style even when chopping...

Charles

[kylequeener]

Can you stick clip though?  I think I agree with Ky, gotta go ground up... gotta have style even when chopping...

Charles

Lack of style is probably what led the chopping in the first place. A chopper should chop in perfect style. They should also own up to the task.

[schrammel]

Charles

[kylequeener]

Not at all. Just do a good job.

But chopping is unacceptable. Pull and patch is the way to remove offensive hardware.

Wedge bolts are the hardest to pull. But often they are overdrilled on the hole so that one can hammer them in the hole and patch over. Try that first. If it doesn't work there are other ways to avoid scarring the rock.

So does this mean I can remove hardware I find offensive if I do a good job? And go ground up of course.

I can think of a few routes that I find offensive.



I'm sure Charles could find about four he finds offensive.

[schrammel]

Is there an oversight board I can talk to about offense?  Or is it up to me in the same way that I can put up a new route without really consulting anyone?

Charles

[kylequeener]

The slope is slippery

[schrammel]

Then place a bolt! Or three, you know you can't be too careful these days, safety first, style third.

Charles

[kylequeener]

Then place a bolt! Or three, you know you can't be too careful these days, safety first, style third.

Charles

Whoah Whoah Whoah... that goes against everything I was ever taught.

Style has always been rule number one.

If you look good, you feel good, you climb good. You climb good you climb safe.

[schrammel]

Getting a new Arc'Teryx jacket today... maybe that will help.  At least then I can climb routes and won't be motivated to chop ones I can't climb...

Charles

[mungeclimber]

If a route can go in, it can be removed. There is no 'entitlement' beyond that which we all have, e.g. what Mucci mentioned.

The going in part requires some ethical approach since it involves installing the hardware.

The removal is mere restoration. That's why it is important to do a good job.

Doing it ground up is just style in method, not ethics in method. An ethical result is what one would be after in that case. Again, the goal of restoration being paramount.

Further, to say that someone that can't climb 5.13 can't pull and patch offensive 5.13 routes would be an appeal to elitism that has no grounding in the reason for the removal. Presumably the removal corrects an offense. Having a prerequisite of a certain climbing ability means that only certain climbing abilities are permitted to put up routes.

Under egalitarian and democratic notions, that would be technically called horseshit.

[schrammel]

Woo hoo! Semantics! Oh, I'll readily admit to elitism, nothing personal... it's just intuitive.  If I can climb runnout 5.10 can I pull and patch over-bolted 5.5 that I find offensive?  Ground up of course and with the full blessings of the Church of the Latter-Day Dude.

As a side note, I was up welding till 3am and the gym is slow right now, so thanks everyone for the amusement!


Charles

[mungeclimber]

Semantics is the study of meaning. what does it mean to do X action and it's affect on others? That's ethics. Style is when it doesn't affect others (e.g. redpoint off of yo yo and preplaced gear, versus leading e.g. cracks placing gear as one goes).

Removal is about ethics too. So yes, it is reasonable in principle to pull and patch any perceived over bolted route one wants (all other things being equal). One doesn't need a free climbing ability to do it since it is about ethics and not about measuring the length of our Johnsons.

Appealing to elite abilities is about excluding some from participating in a certain activity. E.g. in racing you don't get to race the champ, if you can't make it in the qualifying rounds.
Makes sense in a climbing comp. Not outside.

Outside, if only elite climbers put in routes where they felt they need it, everything under a certain grade would never need protection and would never get climbed. Noobies may never get the chance to progress through the grades. Leading is an exercise in terror management. And with fewer climbers, there are fewer of us to write our senators when they finally pull the plug on all climbing because no one understands it and mere perception becomes the rule. It's the same reason I like tourons. They vote. They keep parks open. Doesn't mean I like everything tourons do.

 

[mynameismud]

There are a couple of what I consider over bolted routes that offend me.  Some of them are considered classic and get stars in the guidebook.  Problem with over bolted is it is quite subjective.

Personally I am still stuck at futzing with the Triangle skirt and trying to decide if I am a fool or a simpleton.  Perhaps since I have to ask myself that question it is both.

Clink to answer you question, perhaps.  Triangle Skirt probably would not hurt to freshin up the bolting there.

Wedge, half the appeal of leading that is doing A3 leading on an A1 route.  It would be a good place to do a first Aid lead if rebolted.  Perhaps leave one or two original bolts for flavor. 

If we do both the Wedge and Triangle Skirt does everyone smile?

[squiddo]

If we do both the Wedge and Triangle Skirt does everyone smile?

well, maybe smirk 

[schrammel]

This is hilarious.  Was it you who chopped the back-side of Monolith?

Charles

[mynameismud]

It was not me and have a fair bit of confidence it was not the guys on the Flumes wall since their not well you know.  They futz.

[mungeclimber]

This is hilarious.  Was it you who chopped the back-side of Monolith?

Charles

I don't even think the back side of the Monolith had any TD routes on it. It was just an internet troll session.