Author Topic: Old fixed pins  (Read 41411 times)

JC w KC redux

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Old fixed pins
« on: May 27, 2015, 09:32:54 AM »
I think this issue warrants some discussion.

There are some climbs that have really old fixed pins.

What do we do when those old pieces of iron are no longer reliable - and how can that even be determined without removing the pin?

In the case of Scout Peak, the pins might still be sturdy but unfortunately they rely on relatively thin rusty rings.

They are a cool piece of history but they were also originally intended to serve as meaningful protection.
This is a tricky balance.

Sometimes there are gear placements nearby that can supplement - since limited gear options were available at the time the pins were placed. Sometimes not.

I would advocate for leaving the old pins in place for the sake of history (and preserving the rock) and possibly adding a bolt nearby if there are no viable options for good gear. This may have already been done at the Scout intermediate belay - the ring piton appeared much older than the star dryvin with Leeper hanger that we replaced.

Of course determining what is good gear at Pinns has to be done on a case-by-case basis - especially if it is an anchor.

Was a bolt added on Ordeal at the crux where the pin is above it? Or was that originally a midway anchor?

I am by no means advocating the addition of bolts to existing routes. I am only trying to find a solution to old pins that have outlived their usefulness.

Here are the pins on Scout - the first one is lead pro and the second was already combined with a bolt (which we replaced) for an intermediate belay (see Brad's guidebook). 





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Aaron McDonald

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2015, 10:31:26 AM »
That pin looks like solid pro.  What is the big deal?

kylequeener

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2015, 10:58:07 AM »
I recently took a big whipper onto a fixed pinn on Peregrine.


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Brad Young

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2015, 11:02:05 AM »
This is an important topic and the originating post is well stated.

Maybe talk first about what considerations are priorities? And then discuss how to achieve them?

My list of priorities would go like this:

1.  Don't add protection bolts to existing routes under any circumstances (although in some cases a consensus might agree that a pin should be replaced by a bolt, this is a terribly slippery slope which would likely lead others to justify adding bolts to other routes for reasons they find compelling).

2. Safety (can older fixed pins be replaced with newer/modern ones - hard to do properly but possible; maybe this should be done by the few who are experts with Pinnacles rock and with placing/removing pins?).

3.  Preserve the history of different types of pro at Pinns (a tough one - Bruce probably did the right thing by replacing one of the bolts holding the garage door handle to the rock on Twinkle Toes Traverse, but somehow the handle having a proper bolt hanger on its rebolted side is pretty unsatisfying).

4.  Anchors are a different issue (I don't know of any anchor at Pinns that uses only fixed pins; anchors that use any fixed pin and/or a "bolt-through-a-pin" can be easily "fixed" by placing other, nearby anchor bolts).





Brad Young

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2015, 11:05:11 AM »

I recently took a big whipper onto a fixed pinn on Peregrine.


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Yeah, I held Joe on a significant lead fall onto a fixed pin on Tuff too. I sure wouldn't have wanted to take that fall, but the pin did hold.

But  J.C.'s comment obviously isn't about every fixed pin, its about the truly old ones, the ones that "have outlived their usefulness"



Aaron McDonald

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2015, 11:13:16 AM »
Why is it fixed pins evoke a different sense of nostalgia than leapers with star dryvns or lever out spoon hangers?  SOD wall had a ton of homemade hangers on 1/4" bolts and I would not be sad in any way to see those things replaced.

clink

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2015, 11:14:51 AM »
Case by nutcase. Please leave the old pins whenever possible. On Swallow there is plenty of good crack to place pro in, as to questionable replacement of an existing pin, I would go with leaving it and placing a bolt in the vicinity.
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clink

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2015, 11:17:03 AM »
Aaron,  there is no comparison. A bolt can back placed almost anywhere.

Cool old bolts are in a class of their own. 
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Brad Young

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2015, 11:21:50 AM »

There is a comparison though, and he made it: "why is it fixed pins evoke a different sense of nostalgia than leapers with star dryvns or lever out spoon hangers?"

I'm not sure why, but I think you are right, the "nostalgia factor" is a little different between the two.

I know though that I've left old bolts - as part of a rebolted anchor - to preserve the history. But I've never been concerned with removing an old protection bolt and replacing it with something modern.

clink

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2015, 11:34:38 AM »
In a conversation about beautiful eyebrows the discussion can be moved to include unibrows, I would keep them separate conversations though.
Causing trouble when not climbing.

Brad Young

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 11:41:30 AM »

In a conversation about beautiful eyebrows the discussion can be moved to include unibrows, I would keep them separate conversations though.


Wow, in one sentence you've managed to:

-  Make a statement that is factually correct,

-  Describe and insult J.C., and

-  Raise an issue that has no apparent relationship to the topic at hand.




clink

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 11:55:28 AM »
Lol!
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CruxLuv

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 12:13:07 PM »
In a conversation about beautiful eyebrows the discussion can be moved to include unibrows, I would keep them separate conversations though.

Illicited a literal LOL 

Indeed - unibrows need a "separate" conversation.
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mynameismud

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 05:32:18 PM »
no easy answer.  Both those pins are garbage.  You might be able to get in a #1 Lowe Ball by that one pin.  That pin that held Joe, I also removed it by hand.  So how good is it, really?  I would not replace that particular pin with a bolt but I just figure that if you fall and that particular pins stops said fall, it is your day. 

Most of the pins that I have seen have some sort of decent protection option nearby so I figure the pin is not necessary.  I personally have a general rule that I do not clip pins if there is a natural gear option.  There are of course exceptions to that rule.

those two, well one already has a bolt, the other, would have to see the route.

Do not know about Ordeal, I would be surprised if it originally had a bolt considering how close the crack is but who knows.
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NOAL

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2015, 06:16:45 PM »
Quote
Most of the pins that I have seen have some sort of decent protection option nearby so I figure the pin is not necessary. 
This is exactly the case for the pin in JC's first photo.  There are a few spots around it where modern pro like small cams can be placed. 
Quote
I know though that I've left old bolts - as part of a rebolted anchor - to preserve the history. But I've never been concerned with removing an old protection bolt and replacing it with something modern.
I agree.  I enjoy getting to the top of an old route and getting the pleasant surprise of seeing a old drilled through piton, a longware hanger etc. 






waldo

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2015, 06:25:05 PM »
I especially liked that bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith. It was the only piece, but it made me grin whenever I passed it - carefully. It's not there anymore, is it?

JC w KC redux

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2015, 08:22:41 PM »
I especially liked that bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith. It was the only piece, but it made me grin whenever I passed it - carefully. It's not there anymore, is it?

Rebolted in Jan 2013 - it's on my master list. Sorry I killed your fun Bob. I put in a request after climbing it in June 2012. Bruce and Clint replaced it the following January. There was some discussion about it on the rebolting thread.
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NOAL

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2015, 08:52:56 PM »
Quote
I especially liked that bolted piton on the NE corner of Monolith. It was the only piece, but it made me grin whenever I passed it - carefully. It's not there anymore, is it?

When the old hardware is in it's original location it retains it's context right?  I was telling JC about the first year of the Oakdale Climbers Conference and how they had a separate day for vintage gear. The old hardware, pitons, etc. lose a little something (magic and context) once they are in someone's collection and shown under a piece of plexi.
I feel like the anchors are the best place whenever we can to preserve some insight to the experience of the founders of climbing.

clink

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 05:04:08 AM »
The devolution of climbers;

First There was Obviously Woman.
Get Me the Hell Out of This Cave Man.
Explorer Man.
Mountaineering Man.
Piton (aid) Man.
Free Man.
Nut Man.
Cam Man.
Free Solo Man.
Sport (bolt) Man.
Boulder Man.
Forum Man.

Dawn Wall Climbers are a culmination of most of the above.

A discussion as whether Free Solo Man is a separate species or subspecies is under debate.


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mungeclimber

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Re: Old fixed pins
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 07:57:24 AM »
Speed man?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge