Author Topic: Ranger Bolts rebolting  (Read 14707 times)

mynameismud

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2016, 01:47:14 PM »
I do not necessarily agree with moving the bolts on the free variation.  As I stated earlier I am by no means strong and have lead most of this route without issue with the bolts the way they are. Also reading what Kyle and Adam wrote it seemed they thought the same holes should be used.  When climbing outside the bolts are not necessarily right where you want them.

I would like the lower chains to be above the bulge to preserve the original nature of that lead.  I have been on this thing way to many times to remember and having it easier would definitely be of a benefit to a person like me.  With that said, it is a hard climb and that is just the way it is.  

I will be down there this weekend and will take some pics and get on the route then post up what I think after refreshing my memory.
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mungeclimber

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2016, 01:49:18 PM »
This seems to be the best of both worlds, the most concise explanation and the best long term solution.
All that is left is to set a date and get on with the work.
I agree with Brad - that reinforcing holds is strictly taboo. If the route is destined to evolve - so be it.

Still much to do. Details and carrots.
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mutemudder

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2016, 02:44:19 PM »
I apologize to come off abrasive.  I guess i'm very forward with my feelings.  If you get to know me, you will find im a pretty nice guy.  Im not here to try to imperialize.  My sole purpose for caring about RB is to minimize the impact on the wall and refreshen and match the free climbing with an excellent bolt job which would be enjoyed by many for years to come.  I am not impulsive about my ways and would only act on my feelings when they were moderated by multiple respected RB stewards.

a bit of background on my part,   I am an RN. im 30 years old. I have been passionately traveling for climbing for 10 or more years.  Ive had a lot of experience bolting new routes in humboldt county, tennessee and yosemite. I have aided in rebolting projects in humboldt county.  I consider myself a well rounded climber with experience on the the small butt dragger boulders to spending multiple days on walls "aid climbing" to clipping sport bolts on both the best stone in the world to the chossiest stone.  I worked with the Yosemite Search and Rescue 2011-2012.  Im a strong climber looking to improve at the game but far from the best.  I have been in and out of santa cruz for the past 10 years but have only made it my permanent home in the last 2 years. and I consider pinnacles a great place in terms of quality and proximity.  

After having said all that, Im sure everyone else here has impressive and respected qualities.  I would be curious to hear about the backgrounds of everyone on here and not that it really matters in terms of fixing ranger bolts its nice to know that its not just some "yeehaw" thats taking on the pinnacles by storm.

After discussing with Jim about the various ideas it does seem like we can come to terms on a lot of issues.  

as far as moving the bolts, the only bolt i think that could be in a better place is the 3rd bolt. if we dropped it down while maintain the line, we could clip off of the sidepull and it would protect the traverse over to the right which is path of least resistance and seems like it is the beta most people use.  It is not so much a runout as it is confusing for the onsight climber.  I understand why "it doesnt feel so bad" but I believe that headpointing techniques in order to mediate funk is not a great way to have a route. 

Right before the last bolt before the intermediate anchors there is a rest position and a great clipping stance and ending to the first part of the route the next few moves to the anchor are reachy and bewildering until you have the move figured out.  I doubt someone shorter than 5'8" could even do the move. that being said, it is hard and I would encourage people to do it but ending the midway anchors before that move would make it a recommendable lead for a 5.11 climber.



  

Brad Young

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2016, 03:11:54 PM »

I apologize to come off abrasive.


Thanks for the apology mutemudder - I think we're off to a much better start with your second post and I'm glad to have you on here and to have your input!


Quote

My sole purpose for caring about RB is to minimize the impact on the wall and refreshen and match the free climbing with an excellent bolt job which would be enjoyed by many for years to come.  I am not impulsive about my ways and would only act on my feelings when they were moderated by multiple respected RB stewards.


Yes, I think we all share these concerns and this passion. And I think we can come up with acceptable solutions by these discussions.


Quote

a bit of background on my part,   I am an RN. im 30 years old. I have been passionately traveling for climbing for 10 or more years.  Ive had a lot of experience bolting new routes in humboldt county, tennessee and yosemite. I have aided in rebolting projects in humboldt county.  I consider myself a well rounded climber with experience on the the small butt dragger boulders to spending multiple days on walls "aid climbing" to clipping sport bolts on both the best stone in the world to the chossiest stone.  I worked with the Yosemite Search and Rescue 2011-2012.  Im a strong climber looking to improve at the game but far from the best.  I have been in and out of santa cruz for the past 10 years but have only made it my permanent home in the last 2 years. and I consider pinnacles a great place in terms of quality and proximity.

Thanks for the further introduction. I guess if you've climbed up on the north coast you've got plenty of choss under your belt? And are well qualified and trained to climb at Pinns ;D  It does my heart a lot of good to see the words "quality" and "Pinnacles" used in the same sentence.

I hope to hear from you more. And maybe to see you (although you won't see me on Ranger Bolts!).

Sincerely,

Brad

Aaron McDonald

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2016, 05:01:00 PM »
 I am one of the few losers who first climbed this route as and aid route and will never forget clipping into those manky bolts and wondering if they were going to blow.  That route will give anyone a great history lesson in Pinnacles bolting hardware. It was great fun the first time and every other time I have aided the route.  I am a little surprised at how this conversation is moving along.  The the last route I was on at Pinnacles was the Balconies Regular Route which happens to be a bolt ladder. Could we be having this same discussion about the Balconies Regular Route in the future?  

I will not name names but one first accessionist at Pinnacles blew every bolt he ever placed at Pinnacles in respect to placement, ascetics and functionally.  This guy destroyed lines that could have been really good. Does this mean that by group decree we can decide to erase and re-establish?

Someone once told me that you do not need to respect the people involved in the FA but you do need to respect the route.  Out of respect for the route I think Ranger Bolts should stay as bolt ladder and that moving bolts based on convenience, aesthetics, etc. is a really bad idea.  I am all for making the route safe and if and when bolts need to be replaced, replace out of necessity.  Let is stand as an example of how not bolt a climb.

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2016, 05:51:02 PM »
So pink colored hangers for the ladder?
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mungeclimber

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2016, 06:10:29 PM »
No pink hangers at that spot, just camo.  and besides pink hangers are for full retrobolts. The ladder placements are essentially original, so replacing them isn't retro, it is rebolting.

I'm ready to rebolt Balconies, with a couple changes for the free route. THough they have nothing to do with the bolts, just the bat guano being moved. :)

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Jim Thornburg

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2016, 05:49:05 AM »
Aaron McDonald wrote:

"Let (the route) stand as an example of how not to bolt a route"

Can you expand on this thought Aaron? How should the route have been bolted?

The present state of Ranger Bolts arose via a conglomeration of different visions and different styles done over different eras on what is arguably one of the nicest and most alluring walls at The Pinnacles. I don't think anyone will argue that most of the current interest in the route is for free climbing. That trend will only increase in the future. It's a natural progression that people climbing the route today are going to notice the absolute shit-show of bolts everywhere and wonder if something could be done to make it better.

I've agreed not to mess with the aid bolts. But does there really need to be five bolts in a one square meter area at the mid-anchor? Should us free climbers accept an additional retro-anchor smack dab in the middle of the upper crux? I placed the (27-year-old) free climbing bolts on the upper half of the route, if I go to replace those and find that there is a better spot for any of those bolts are you telling me I shouldn't use my discretion to relocate them to a better spot that will enhance the experience for future free ascents?

I would love it if Ranger Bolts the free climb had only a perfectly-crafted line of free climbing bolts with a single top anchor in the proper spot. Ahhh, that would be SO nice! That's my personal vision for the climb. But I can't push my vision over yours. All I can do is ask the question how can we make this better? Even bolt-ladder enthusiasts can appreciate not having extraneous bolts all over the place.

I say instead of leaving this beautiful wall as "an example of how not to bolt a route" let's do our best to leave an example of the best way for an aid-ladder and free climb to coexist.

Atomizer

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2016, 07:02:15 AM »
Maybe we should ask Mr Davis for his opinion?

kylequeener

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2016, 08:36:43 AM »
Maybe we should ask Mr Davis for his opinion?

We should...

He has a good eye for matters like this....



clink

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2016, 04:36:01 PM »
Jim, I think you are fine relocating the free bolts to optimum placements. If a aid bolt is used for pro try to place the rebolt in a manner that still works for the aid ladder.  If someone rebolts the aid ladder use a different colored hanger for "aid only". This would make the clips when freeing obvious.

What type of bolt are you thinking of using?

As far as keeping to the hole count, the plethora of bolts should make that easy. Sounds like there will be less bolts in the end.

 Did a young Sloan place the midway anchor?
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Gavin

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2016, 09:17:20 AM »
Wow, a lot of thoughtful discussion on this thread. There seems to be a great balance of considerate attention to balancing history, safety, and aesthetics on this route.

I think I am more or less in the same boat as Mr. Mud... I'm no 5.13 climber, but I've cranked through the 1st pitch of Ranger Bolts (still not quite clean), and stumbled through the 2nd pitch on TR with takes. I don't feel like I've had major rope drag issues on the 1st pitch, but I'm certainly supportive of thoughtful ideas on rebolting the free line that Jim, Kyle, and others mention.

Personally, I don't think the lower anchor should be completely eliminated, as it gives 5.11+ climbers a chance to test themselves on lead even if they can't make it through the top pitch, which has some substantially harder sequences. I'm mixed in my thoughts about changing the location of the lower anchor... At one level I'd welcome it, and at another level I like the fact that the hardest moves on the 1st pitch are right near the anchor, and your really have to earn the free lead. I guess I need to get back on that route and see how it feels again!

At any rate, not much more to add that hasn't already been said, but I definitely like the open discussion!

mungeclimber

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2016, 10:02:11 AM »
^^^ :)


Is the last move to the first anchor the crux of the first section?

Felt like it to me on TR.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2016, 12:19:44 PM »
^^^ :)

Is the last move to the first anchor the crux of the first section?

Felt like it to me on TR.

For me clipping the anchor has always been the crux, which for me made the route what it is.  Removing that aspect completely changes the character of the route.

I went down there yesterday and took some pics from up above.  I will say from the trail almost all of the bolts are near invisible with the exception of the chains on top.  The two doubled screw gates on top of West of the Sun stand out more than any bolt on Ranger Bolts.  Upper anchor is visible but you have to look for it.  The lead bolts and aid bolts are barely visible. 

As far as the aid bolts go on the upper part of Ranger Bolts I will say I have seen quite a number of people that were working the route pull through using the aid bolts to get to the next lead bolt.  When I think of it I see it as kind of funny, "Free climbers"  probably use the aid bolts way more than any "aid climbers".

I did not have a chance to get on the route since the project we were working on took longer than anticipated.  Will post a link to the pictures soon.
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mynameismud

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2016, 02:55:51 PM »
The pictures did not come out as well as I had hoped.  They do allow a general view of what the wall looks like from the trail.  Chalk and chains are much more noticeable than bolts.
http://www.mudncrud.com/MudGallery/index.php?/category/2
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mungeclimber

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2016, 04:00:36 PM »
Hard to shoot into the dark pit with the way it runs relative to the sun.
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MudMittens

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2016, 09:02:36 AM »
Someone once told me that you do not need to respect the people involved in the FA but you do need to respect the route.  Out of respect for the route I think Ranger Bolts should stay as bolt ladder and that moving bolts based on convenience, aesthetics, etc. is a really bad idea.  I am all for making the route safe and if and when bolts need to be replaced, replace out of necessity.  Let is stand as an example of how not bolt a climb.

That's exactly what I'm saying. The ROUTE is not a bolt ladder. The ROUTE is a beautiful, obvious line of weakness allowing you to free climb an impressively steep wall. Out of respect for the real route, the bolt ladder seems unnecessary.

(Sorry for the late response, and for resurrecting this thread.)


mynameismud

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2016, 11:24:51 AM »
Well actually the route is a bolt ladder and always has been.  It just happened to be freed.  What I do not understand is the desire to move the free bolts on the lower section. these are not part of the aid ladder.  This is how the lower part of the route was established and in my opinion climbs just fine.  I do not see anything wrong with moving the lower anchor a bit but we need to keep in mind clipping integrity is maintained for climbers going straight up to avoid the bulge finish out to the left.

I brought up a similar discussion with Machete Direct.  The free line was put in because the aid line was dangerous, but I ( and others ) have freed the aid line.  As far as I am concerned the only new bolt that is really needed is the first bolt in the new free version because without that a failure on the traverse results in a nasty fall on less than optimal gear.  But when I brought up removing the bolts from the free variation there was not a lot of positive feedback.  Having the two lines does not really bother me, the way it is there are two 5.11's instead of one.
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Aaron McDonald

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2016, 01:20:42 PM »
That's exactly what I'm saying. The ROUTE is not a bolt ladder. The ROUTE is a beautiful, obvious line of weakness allowing you to free climb an impressively steep wall. Out of respect for the real route, the bolt ladder seems unnecessary.

(Sorry for the late response, and for resurrecting this thread.)



Maybe I did not make myself clear.  The "Route" is the line established by the FA party.  That line is not always the most obvious line of weakness nor the best possible placement of protection. That FA line is what you respect.

Aaron McDonald

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Re: Ranger Bolts rebolting
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2016, 01:50:49 PM »
Aaron McDonald wrote:

"Let (the route) stand as an example of how not to bolt a route"

Can you expand on this thought Aaron? How should the route have been bolted?

The present state of Ranger Bolts arose via a conglomeration of different visions and different styles done over different eras on what is arguably one of the nicest and most alluring walls at The Pinnacles. I don't think anyone will argue that most of the current interest in the route is for free climbing. That trend will only increase in the future. It's a natural progression that people climbing the route today are going to notice the absolute shit-show of bolts everywhere and wonder if something could be done to make it better.

I've agreed not to mess with the aid bolts. But does there really need to be five bolts in a one square meter area at the mid-anchor? Should us free climbers accept an additional retro-anchor smack dab in the middle of the upper crux? I placed the (27-year-old) free climbing bolts on the upper half of the route, if I go to replace those and find that there is a better spot for any of those bolts are you telling me I shouldn't use my discretion to relocate them to a better spot that will enhance the experience for future free ascents?

I would love it if Ranger Bolts the free climb had only a perfectly-crafted line of free climbing bolts with a single top anchor in the proper spot. Ahhh, that would be SO nice! That's my personal vision for the climb. But I can't push my vision over yours. All I can do is ask the question how can we make this better? Even bolt-ladder enthusiasts can appreciate not having extraneous bolts all over the place.

I say instead of leaving this beautiful wall as "an example of how not to bolt a route" let's do our best to leave an example of the best way for an aid-ladder and free climb to coexist.

Jim,

You are correct that climbing is evolving and people are climbing harder and harder free routes.  There is plenty of evidence all over California that the aid climbers of yesterday probably did not even think about the impact their decisions would have on future generations of climbers.  It is possible to erase some of those bad early aid climbing decisions and sometimes it is not. The question is should we change the route based on today's latest climbing disciplines?  What about the future?  Will the climbers of tomorrow even need bolts?  What if removable bolts become the new protection?

If you re-read my post I said "I am all for making the route safe and if and when bolts need to be replaced, replace out of necessity." This usually means placing a bolt as close to the original as you can safely. Replacing bolts is completely different than moving things around based on aesthetics.  

I agree with you that best free line was not chosen when the route was established. There are many beautiful and alluring walls at pinnacles that suffer similar fates. The "shit show of bolts" is part of our history as climbers and an important part of the history of Pinnacles.