Hardware MIA

[JC w KC redux]

I led Erectile Dysfunction on Saturday and someone had removed the nut, washer and hanger on the last bolt.
It is now a bare stud.
Maybe they thought that was appropriate, given the name of the climb and the formation?

I also noticed that someone had taken the nuts and washers off the Highline anchor at the top of Big Bad West.

[mynameismud]

 

[JC w KC redux]

I led Erectile Dysfunction on Saturday and someone had removed the nut, washer and hanger on the last bolt.
It is now a bare stud.
Maybe they thought that was appropriate, given the name of the climb and the formation?

I also noticed that someone had taken the nuts and washers off the Highline anchor at the top of Big Bad West.

To summarize, I am saying that it will take a couple pairs of big nuts to highline and you will have to wrap the bare stud on ED with some additional protection if you want to be safe from/on the Unmentionable.  

[mynameismud]

that route shouldn't be there, but that is just me.

[mungeclimber]

I believe that's the one that is within an arm's reach of the regular, yes?

Not surprised its gone. AROCA membership grows with each passing year.

[JC w KC redux]

I believe that's the one that is within an arm's reach of the regular, yes?

Not surprised its gone. AROCA membership grows with each passing year.

I'll put a Leeper and a nut on it with Red Loctite. That'll teach 'em  

[mynameismud]

what is AROCA?

[JC w KC redux]

what is AROCA?

I'm guessing Arm's Reach of Climbing Anarchists?
Internet says Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia

Bruce told me last year that someone in Colorado came to a stud bolt with a loose hanger and nut and they didn't have a wrench. Instead of hand tightening it and reporting it, they removed the nut and hanger because they thought it was unsafe.

Noal told me he has seen multiple reports of the same thing over the years.

I bought a mini adjustable wrench a long time ago. It is only 4 inches long but has jaws that open big enough to work on the gate of a half inch screw link. It stays on my harness on a short cord with a drilled quarter for checking the thickness of SMC death hangers and a leaver screwlink with double aluminum rap rings. Best $10 I ever spent.

The dilemma for me on this climb is replacement. I don't feel like I should use ASCA replacement hardware for something someone took for whatever reason. If I do end up putting a hanger back on it at some point I will use red loctite and torque the nut to spec.

[mungeclimber]

Do not replace that bolt. It was anathema to begin with.  And especially do not use ASCA gear for ethically questionable bolts to begin with.


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=18063&msg=18084#msg18084

[JC w KC redux]

Do not replace that bolt. It was anathema to begin with.  And especially do not use ASCA gear for ethically questionable bolts to begin with.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=18063&msg=18084#msg18084

American RunOut Climbing Association

Not sure this applies here. The 5.9 line was never R.
That last bolt wasn't added to a runout, but I do agree that the route is an abomination at Pinnacles since it was bolted on rappel. I swore I would never climb it but we were over there so the gals could get their lead on and I felt like leading something new. Never say never.

There is a separate issue with that bolt. It is drilled just above a small overhang of rock. The position of the bolt is less than a bolt length above the edge. This is a recipe for failure per manufacturers location regarding close to an edge specs. I suspect that if someone did take a hard fall onto that bolt, it might break out. The moves above that bolt are also quite contrived. The description says if the bolt line is followed closely, a 5.9 mantle is necessary to pass that section. I once had someone tell me that you can't direct climbers. The climbing from that bolt does not require a mantle if you follow the Line Of Least Resistance from the clipping stance, and the bolt on the 5.5 route is located close enough to protect those moves.

[mynameismud]

no bolt needed.  soloed it.

[mungeclimber]

American RunOut Climbing Association

Not sure this applies here. The 5.9 line was never R.
That last bolt wasn't added to a runout, but I do agree that the route is an abomination at Pinnacles since it was bolted on rappel. I swore I would never climb it but we were over there so the gals could get their lead on and I felt like leading something new. Never say never.

There is a separate issue with that bolt. It is drilled just above a small overhang of rock. The position of the bolt is less than a bolt length above the edge. This is a recipe for failure per manufacturers location regarding close to an edge specs. I suspect that if someone did take a hard fall onto that bolt, it might break out. The moves above that bolt are also quite contrived. The description says if the bolt line is followed closely, a 5.9 mantle is necessary to pass that section. I once had someone tell me that you can't direct climbers. The climbing from that bolt does not require a mantle if you follow the Line Of Least Resistance from the clipping stance, and the bolt on the 5.5 route is located close enough to protect those moves.

You might be missing the point of AROCA. "Runout" is not meant to force runouts on every climb.



The route went in top down to begin with. It was just a matter of time before the whole thing got erased.


You are correct, the last clip is obviated by the regular route.

[mynameismud]

American RunOut Climbing Association

Not sure this applies here. The 5.9 line was never R.
That last bolt wasn't added to a runout, but I do agree that the route is an abomination at Pinnacles since it was bolted on rappel. I swore I would never climb it but we were over there so the gals could get their lead on and I felt like leading something new. Never say never.

There is a separate issue with that bolt. It is drilled just above a small overhang of rock. The position of the bolt is less than a bolt length above the edge. This is a recipe for failure per manufacturers location regarding close to an edge specs. I suspect that if someone did take a hard fall onto that bolt, it might break out. The moves above that bolt are also quite contrived. The description says if the bolt line is followed closely, a 5.9 mantle is necessary to pass that section. I once had someone tell me that you can't direct climbers. The climbing from that bolt does not require a mantle if you follow the Line Of Least Resistance from the clipping stance, and the bolt on the 5.5 route is located close enough to protect those moves.

On lead if you can clip the bolts then you are on route.  If you climb out of the line of bolts then climb back in you are on route ( try leading Future Shock ).  Leading outside is not leading in the gym or bouldering.  Climbing the route of least resistance is the defacto standard and is how countless hard climbs have ended up being down graded.  Stating "you have climb in line with the bolts because that is how it is bolted" or "that is the only way it gets the correct rating" does not make sense.  

I do not consider that a bad route because it is rap bolted, I consider it a bad route for other reasons.

I have put up bad routes, I know a bad route when I see one.    

[JC w KC redux]

On lead if you can clip the bolts then you are on route.  If you climb out of the line of bolts then climb back in you are on route ( try leading Future Shock ).  Leading outside is not leading in the gym or bouldering.  Climbing the route of least resistance is the defacto standard and is how countless hard climbs have ended up being down graded.  Stating "you have climb in line with the bolts because that is how it is bolted" or "that is the only way it gets the correct rating" does not make sense.  

I do not consider that a bad route because it is rap bolted, I consider it a bad route for other reasons.

I have put up bad routes, I know a bad route when I see one.    

Agreed. As I was once told - you can't direct climbers. I was also taught that when in doubt, follow the line of least resistance. There are a lot of routes where wandering beyond the bolt line is prudent. I follow the features, not the bolts. That being said, I thought some of the hardest moves were right off the ground on ED. There are some moves before the third bolt too that are at the grade imo. KC and beanolar did not think the climb was 5.9 when they followed it. They thought it was harder.

It is unfortunate that the bolts were placed in an unethical fashion. There are perfectly good stances for drilling.
The line climbs okay but is definitely not star worthy (if you believe in the stars ).

What is it you don't like Mud?

[mynameismud]

It is squeezed in next to another line and it has no aesthetics.  Well no good aesthetics.  It looks like they put the line in just to put the line in.  Not because it seems like it could be a good route.  I do not have a problem with really crappy rock, that can be fun, but I think a route should hold its own.  That line does not hold its own.  

[JC w KC redux]

It is squeezed in next to another line and it has no aesthetics.  Well no good aesthetics.  It looks like they put the line in just to put the line in.  Not because it seems like it could be a good route.  I do not have a problem with really crappy rock, that can be fun, but I think a route should hold its own.  That line does not hold its own.  

Agreed. Squeezed and along the rappel line makes a good argument for leaving as a TR (crap! did I just say that  )

The name certainly is well chosen and appropriate. Inappropriate Touching would work too  

[mungeclimber]

hold its own means what? what are the criteria for, presumably, an independent line?

Hawaiian Tango?

Arms reach is too close?

6feet as an objective measure?

A lot of people I know bitch about lines must be independent, but then they haven't really thought about what it means to be independent.

Think of the example of an arête.  If your hands are in the same place, but there is no way to reach around the corner without falling off, and you would clip away from the edge of the arête, and yet still if the bolts were within 6' of each other, are they still independent climbs?  Should neither be bolted, or only one?

[mynameismud]

I did not state it had to be and independent line.  I stated it had to hold its own.  I do agree that this is subjective in nature and I have spent a fair amount of time thinking about it.  

I think most people would agree that Hawaiian Tango holds it own.  I personally think coming up with hard numbers like 6 feet can make for even more contrived lines.

[mungeclimber]

hard numbers like 6 feet can make for even more contrived lines.

how can a minimum distance force a contrivance?  it either fits in or doesn't with a measurement test.


Btw, not harping on you or your lines, just reflecting other discussions I've had.


On bigwall free lines, a lot of effort, depending on the climber has gone into keeping free bolts out of arms reach from aid placements on an existing line. It seems a reasonable starting point.

if you can reach the clip on one line from the clip on another line, its squeezey.

what of routes that intentionally intersect, and share a clip. I think that bolsters your point about 'independence' not being the sine qua non of squeeze.

Rappel line isn't dispositive. Look at Burgundy Dome.

I think ED is a ok line, it just needs to join the regular route. But then I don't have problems with variations on existing lines usually. Someone think that variations that are bolted are squeeze jobs by definition.

[mynameismud]

I do not care to much about variations.  Like all routes some are good, some not so much.  Rap bolting for me is the same, some are good, some not so much.  I do think that climbers should respect an area, for instance the Pinnacles is by hand and ground up.  I am ok with that.  There are areas in the Sierra and up here where climbers do not really care how the routes go in.  I am fine with that approach.  

Sharing a clip, rappel lines ( we put in Volcanic Panic ) for me it is the route and does it hold it own.  Which for me is a complex statement.  I think Volcanic Panic holds it own.  I saw it rapping off that wall, I am fairly sure Clint had seen it before I had.  I had one person suggest I should not bolt it since I had rapped it.  After rapping it I thought that was nuts since it was a killer looking line.  Technically it was previewed, but I just could not see walking away from something like that.  

Noal has mentioned the word heat to me.  I think that helps to describe what I think of as holding its own.  In many ways just about everything can be bolted or climbed.  But, for me, the question is does the route hold its own?  Does it have some heat?  So the line is 6.5 feet away, it might be quite nice, it might just be a contrived piece of crap.  For me Deck Chairs is a bit contrived.  But, I really like it and it is fun.  I think it holds it own.

For me it is a matter of looking at the thing and thinking alright, if 100 climbers walk by this and look at it what will they think?  That is a dangerous question since there are so many different types of climbers.  In asking myself that question I have to look at the line from multiple points of view.  I also do not mind if people criticize my routes.  I learn from that.  Some of my routes at this time I probably would not do them and some others i would do differently.