Author Topic: Hardware MIA  (Read 9884 times)

mynameismud

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2017, 01:17:49 PM »
Just to comment on the freeing of aid lines.  That is a real hard one for me.  There are some very bold aid lines that could be free and freed in a way where they are very bold.  But, they do require adding bolts.  Where is this limit and it goes to what I said "what if 100 climbers look at it".  There is no simple or easy answer and most likely no answer that works for the parties involved.  I find this is unfortunate, I love bold hard lines and one of my regrets is that I was too limited in this arena.  

It is likely some of the free lines never happen in our lifetimes.  Whether this is good or bad I have no answer.
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mungeclimber

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2017, 01:51:59 PM »
Cop out approach. :)

What principles can we appeal to as a prescriptive guide?
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mynameismud

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2017, 02:20:05 PM »
personal responsibility.  
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mungeclimber

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2017, 02:40:10 PM »
c'mon, personal responsibility is about how it is the individual's responsibility to implement principles. It is not a criteria of the principle itself. Thus it is a fall back to subjectivism, and is not an appeal to objective criteria. Therefore I get to pull your routes out.  >:D


Ok, I'll go first.


Nobody but nobody can put in a new route unless they are over 40 years old.

Nobody but nobody can put in a new route unless it is less than 6 feet away from an existing line. I like my routes close together so I don't have to walk around and it focuses the climber impacts in a smaller area.

On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

mynameismud

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2017, 03:39:51 PM »
 We commonly apply subject criteria to create objective constraints.  


Obviously that number is over 50.
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mungeclimber

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2017, 04:43:36 PM »
Constraint is the action of prevention, not the principle to which we appeal to justify the constraint. Sure, you can use subjective criteria, but then one can also be a loofa face shit gibbon.  ;D  Doesn't make it true or right to use a subjective opinion.

For example, a squeeze job can go in within 4 feet of an existing line, if the protection is all clean and not fixed. Then the objective experience of the climb isn't modified by the FA author.

A bolt placed within an arms reach of another bolt is prima facie understood to be squeeze, unless the holds dictate a movement that prevents the climber from being able to reach the other holds on the other climbs, unless they can be linked via moves of the same or lesser difficulty.

Doesn't mean that someone wouldn't create an intersection of a climb to another climb, breaking that principle, so we would need an exception to the principle for routes that intersect or another principle that says the intersecting route shouldn't bolt next to the bolt on the first line; perhaps in a way that would mislead a climber on the first line.




On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2017, 05:18:08 PM »
Dude! My head is spinning! Time for a beer  :lol: :yesnod: :thumbup: :biggrin:
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mynameismud

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2017, 07:33:24 PM »
Not encroaching on another line is ultimately just a subjective call.  Not bolting a preexisting line is a subjective call.  We take these as hard limits but ultimately they are just rules we apply to a game.  I personally think that most games need rules, but most rules are just subjective calls we take as facts.  This is why I do not really have a hard time making subjective calls on what constitutes whether or not a route stands on it own.   Most rules are arbitrary, if you breath water without coming up for air you drown, that is not subjective.  
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mungeclimber

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2017, 11:13:45 PM »
I'd recommend looking at Nagel. Objective principles aren't physical facts in the world. The objective view is a view from no one single place. Its not omniscient, not meta physical per se. But it is reasoned.

When most players of a game adhere to the rules, that's not pure subjective call making.
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mynameismud

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2017, 09:34:09 AM »
But the point I was trying to make remains, most rules are arbitrary, and many rules are there because of a vocal minority not a rule of the majority or some defined limit.  Not bolting a preexisting line to me is arbitrary, it may make sense, but it is arbitrary in nature.  They are decisions made up by individuals or groups because that is what they think the rules should be.  Sometimes they are more reasoned than others.  I am not arguing that there should not be rules or that rules should largely be ignored.  I am just stating that they are not based on hard limits.   

Also my understanding, the definition of subjective is that it is based on feelings or opinion.  Objective means it is based on a defined object.  Rocks are harder than marsh mellows is an objective statement.  The Pinnacles is the best climbing on the planet is objective.  Munge is a punter is subjective.
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mungeclimber

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2017, 01:39:01 PM »
But the point I was trying to make remains, most rules are arbitrary, and many rules are there because of a vocal minority not a rule of the majority or some defined limit.  Not bolting a preexisting line to me is arbitrary, it may make sense, but it is arbitrary in nature.  They are decisions made up by individuals or groups because that is what they think the rules should be.  Sometimes they are more reasoned than others.  I am not arguing that there should not be rules or that rules should largely be ignored.  I am just stating that they are not based on hard limits.   

Also my understanding, the definition of subjective is that it is based on feelings or opinion.  Objective means it is based on a defined object.  Rocks are harder than marsh mellows is an objective statement.  The Pinnacles is the best climbing on the planet is objective.  Munge is a punter is subjective.

A rule set isn't arbitrary when there is evidence to suggest the opposite is true. An exception to the behavior is not an argument to say the rule is arbitrary. Are the laws of the United States arbitrary?

They are not. They are the result of politics and have a history. Yes, they could be otherwise, given the right circumstances and changes in the law, but the rule itself is not merely arbitrary. Arbitrary is me picking between to equally good choices. It is when something could be equivocally chosen between. I don't think the choice of retro bolting or leaving it alone are equivocal options.

The limits are what we are trying to define by talking about the criteria, conditions of success, what is necessary vs. what is sufficient.

thoughts?

Quote
arbitrary

ADJECTIVE

1.based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system:

"his mealtimes were entirely arbitrary"


synonyms: capricious · whimsical · random · chance · unpredictable · casual ·
[more]


•(of power or a ruling body) unrestrained and autocratic in the use of authority:

"arbitrary rule by King and bishops has been made impossible"

synonyms: autocratic · dictatorial · autarchic · undemocratic · despotic ·
[more]

mathematics

(of a constant or other quantity) of unspecified value.
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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2017, 05:24:58 PM »

All I know is when I read mungie's comments on this discussion I go "huh?" :idea: and when I read Mr Mud's I laugh  :lol:
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clink

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2017, 07:05:09 PM »
Munge=Spock
Causing trouble when not climbing.

clink

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2017, 07:28:09 AM »
My reply to Phil asking "Do you know where you are going?"
 "Phil, lost I fear."

Quote
Could anyone give me a brief description of what exactly IS Objectivism? (self.Objectivism)
submitted 4 years ago by KayMan17
I have always heard about his philosophy, Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, etc. But I would like to know what exactly it is. One of my favorite people, Jimmy Wales of Wikipedia, is a self identified Objectivist, so I was curious to what exactly the core of the philosophy is.

Quote
DISCLAIMER: not a seasoned objectivist or philosopher.
Objectivism is a philosophy for living on Earth.
That's the one liner you might be looking for but to convey what that means more clearly I find it helps to look at what Rand said when answering a similar question.
If you take the following 4 things to be true you have a full system (philosophy) for navigating everything else that being alive involves.
Reality is objective: your wishing, dreaming and hoping will not change the world i.e. "the world" is independent from your consciousness of it and is the same for everyone.
Reason is your means of knowledge. To work out stuff about the objective world you could use lots of tools (emotion, magic, reason) but reason is the only worthwhile one. To know facts, proper unarguable truths, you have to use reason.
Man is an end unto himself. Meaning that since you are alive on Earth your main concern should be your happiness and rational self interest. Not self-sabotaging your happiness or anyone else's.
Because of 3 laissez-faire capitalism is the ideal / only / best way of dealing with other people. Government and economics should be split entirely.
So Objectivism holds some things to be wholly true while living on this planet. You can work out the answer to really abstract stuff like "is this painting any good?" by using the above.
Objectivism is a philosophy and getting your head around philosophy and individual philosophies is hard but there's loads of free Objectivism "beginner" material online.
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The core of objectivism is that it's a metaphysical philosophy that describes reality.
It can be summarised as A = A.
Does you accept that axiom that A=A is true? Is that a correct statement to you?
If you accept that it is correct, then you accept that there is something called truth. And if you accept that it is, then you accept using reason and logic can determine truth.
That's really it. It's simple to grasp and hard to disprove. But the implications of A = A can really unravel society.
If you are still confused, just think of Spock. When he makes his decisions, there is no subjectivity in them, he deducts completely from objective logic. That's what is being an Objectivist is all about. Of course, he is a fictional character and humans have emotions that can affect their decisions. But I'm sure you get the idea.
Now, everything about the ego, capitalism and everything else Rand is heavily hated for is not objectivism. Those are Rand's conclusion that stem from objectivism - those can be attacked. But the A = A axiom cannot be attacked without leaving reality.

 :)

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mungeclimber

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2017, 08:10:38 AM »
I'm definitely not talking about Rand.

A=A when there is a shared understanding of A's meaning.

Really JC?  I'm arguing from the analytical tradition. Usually I argue from the post modern side that questions narratives that purport to claim Objective (with capitalO) legitimacy.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

JC w KC redux

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2017, 09:36:30 AM »
Really JC?  I'm arguing from the analytical tradition. Usually I argue from the post modern side that questions narratives that purport to claim Objective (with capitalO) legitimacy.

Really. Unless by JC you mean clink.
I tried to learn some stuff about philosophy once but it didn't take.
Same experience with physics.
I couldn't understand the logic portion of the GRE either.

I am however familiar with the greatest living philostopher on Earth - Quentin Robert DeNameland

signed,

Greggery Peccary  :biggrin:

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NOAL

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2017, 12:40:56 PM »

JC w KC redux

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2017, 01:23:10 PM »

Spock meets the Flintstones  :biggrin:

Just think - if we move to outer space we'll never have a negative gravity day climbing  :lol:
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Hardware MIA
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 01:30:02 PM »
Need a 20 minute comical/musical distraction?

If you can tolerate the dissonant sountrack-like nature of Frankie's tuneage the story is pretty funny.

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