Author Topic: Standards for R or X ratings  (Read 26439 times)

Brad Young

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Standards for R or X ratings
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2007, 04:13:12 PM »
No blame attaches. The route is what the route is. But, not giving an R would be very misleading I think. We've all done R rated routes.

mudworm

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Standards for R or X ratings
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2007, 05:12:09 PM »
Quote from: "Brad Young"
I can picture a new leader absolutely freaked 20 to 30 feet below the anchor.



No kidding. That's me in the picture. Had to crawl the last 10 feet to the anchor 'cuz I was scared (the last bolt was now  ~50 feet below me) and the rope drag was horrendous.  That felt like an X moment, so R is probably appropriate.
Inch by inch, I will get there.

mudworm

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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2007, 05:18:44 PM »
Quote from: "Mr Mud"
You can blame Mudworm for the runout on Drop Zone.  I am fairly sure she put in the last bolt.



I was told that only one more bolt was needed, and then I could just run to the anchor.  Yeah right, run to the anchor. If it were up to me, I would name the route "Blind Faith," or even "Fooled by Blind Faith."
Inch by inch, I will get there.

Brad Young

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Standards for R or X ratings
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2007, 05:49:19 PM »
Gosh, and who told you "only one more bolt"?

Burner

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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2007, 10:34:23 PM »
maybe you should have put your 1 more bolt higher up :)

mudworm

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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 05:52:02 PM »
But, but I am a shortie :?



Hey, I placed it from a stance, so couldn't be too picky.
Inch by inch, I will get there.

The Big

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Standards for R or X ratings
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 06:39:02 PM »
Bolting from stance on her first FA not to bad for a Rookie.
I'm who i am.

Brad Young

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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2007, 07:07:53 PM »
Lot of different things about mudworm that seem pretty damn good for a rookie. You'd know best. Lucky you.

The Big

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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 09:08:45 PM »
Yep, I have said it many times, she is the best thing to happen to me.
I'm who i am.

mungeclimber

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Standards for R or X ratings
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 10:08:27 PM »
are there pics anywhere? my short term memory is shot.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

Ubergoober

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Standards for R or X ratings
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2007, 02:49:03 PM »
Quote from: "F4?"

I like the Red Rocks ratings: PG, PG-13, R, X, XXX




F4B -



I have to disagree with you here. PG and PG-13 are very superfluous. Climbing is inherently dangerous and adding the full gamit of movie ratings is, to me, just plain silly. R and X make sense in that it gives warning that if you fuck up you are likely to get hurt or die.



PG-13 implies, "whoa shit, this route is spicy and you may go for a long ride, but probably just some minor scrapes and a bit of a scare".



PG implies "hey n00b, if you fall, you may wet your pants but not much else."



So if there is no rating, that implies "G"? Which means what exactly? Totally safe? Bolted every 3 feet like in the gym? Bolted cracks? Because if the cracks aren't bolted, then it should be at least PG because a n00b could fuck up by not knowing how to place gear properly. Heck, maybe even PG-13 since most gym climbers don't know how to place gear properly? Maybe even R?



XXX? Does this imply that I will get a blow job before I deck (sorry for the crudeness, but making a point here). How much more than dead can you get than...dead?



There's a guidebook for Cathedral Ledge and Whitehorse in N. Conway, NH. It uses icons to describe climbs for pumpiness, scare factor, technical skill required, death fall potential, etc. At first I thought this was interesting, but in reality it is TMI and takes away from the experience. Part of the joy of climbing is the self-discovery of your own abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. When we start adding additional safety ratings and icons, where does it end? Will someone give me a diagram of where I should put every piece of pro and what size (which would vary depending on someone's height and skill anyhow)?



R and X are justifiable in that it tells someone leading at the top of their ability that maybe they should rethink hopping on a route because there is a potential to get hurt. Anything beyond that is completely subjective in my opinion.
SCREWD4LYFE!!

mungeclimber

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« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2007, 10:56:40 PM »
Quote
Will someone give me a diagram of where I should put every piece of pro and what size (which would vary depending on someone's height and skill anyhow)?



Supertopo



Burn your guidebook then.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

F4?

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« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2007, 01:09:16 PM »
My point is that some climbs require more attention than others. Trauma for example. Great climb, good pro, BUT you have to know how to get the pro in to be safe. Hence I'd give it a PG-13. How about Wet Kiss? Good pro, yet Rubine mentions taking care when going to clip the 2 or 3rd bolt. I've heard a couple stories or people getting hurt when going for the clip.  



One could argue that with the influx of gym climbers at the Pinnacles that the guide book needs to include notes about routes that people could get hurt.



But hey, Brad has been so meticulous with putting together the new guide book, folks will know what they are getting into.
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Brad Young

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« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2007, 02:15:44 PM »
Useless platitudes aside, Uber has excellent points. More in favor of his view:



I'm kinda old and kinda old school. One of the reasons I love Pinns so well is adventure. The climbs vary in type, length and style. I agree with every word Uber said about too much information taking the adventure away. In the same spirit, I oppose adding bolts to routes. It is true that each such issue is gray and not black and white, but I draw the line on what info a guidebook should give right about the same place.



How useful are such gradients anyway? Especially at a place where, due to rock quality alone, every climb is at least a "G" and almost all are "PG." (Assuming "G" is a more dangerous rating than no letter at all - is it, I don't know?) And what help is "XXX?" What, instead of bouncing once, you bounce three times before you die? Look at all the discussion that takes place about just the "R" and "X" ratings and expand it to 5 or so danger ratings and soon you could have the whole climbing community paralyzed with indecision.



The book is going to come in at over 350 pages, total (appendices and index included). More information only adds to the volume;



Researching climbs is time intensive. Just getting what exists described right, topoed right and mapped right has been huge work. Factor and Uber, among others have seen this firsthand. Wishing for other types of information is a fantasy. (Another example is GPS coordinates - which example fits into the adventure comments above, too.)



The introductory materials delve into some of these issues - centering on the dangers of protecting climbs on softer rock. (See, too the comments second above.)



So, this book, at least, will use just "R" and "X." And, per much of the discussion above it will use them sparingly. Now, Factor, you OK with that? Will you be burning your book (that is, when it is done and delivered)?

F4?

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« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2007, 02:39:40 PM »
I'll just annotate my copy with my own ratings.
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Brad Young

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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2007, 02:58:29 PM »
Dam, you are a lot smarter than they give you credit for. That may be the best solution proposed yet. On the other hand, how do you know what to write in until after you've done the climb - by which time the purpose of a danger warning is gone?

F4?

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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2007, 04:23:56 PM »
Quote
Dam, you are a lot smarter than they give you credit for. That may be the best solution proposed yet. On the other hand, how do you know what to write in until after you've done the climb - by which time the purpose of a danger warning is gone?



What are you implying? Don't you know I'm the supertopo for the Pinnacles at the gym? Folks are always asking about which routes to do. Plus with my short term memory, I'll need the reminder for the next time I do a route.



I keep hearing mumblings about "when is that new guidebook coming out?"



 :lol:
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Brad Young

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« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2007, 05:02:05 PM »
So, we know you go to the gym to play matchmaker. Now we learn that you go there to play climbing guide. Do you ever excercise?

mungeclimber

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« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2007, 05:03:18 PM »
Quote from: "F4?"
My point is that some climbs require more attention than others. Trauma for example. Great climb, good pro, BUT you have to know how to get the pro in to be safe. Hence I'd give it a PG-13. How about Wet Kiss? Good pro, yet Rubine mentions taking care when going to clip the 2 or 3rd bolt. I've heard a couple stories or people getting hurt when going for the clip.  



One could argue that with the influx of gym climbers at the Pinnacles that the guide book needs to include notes about routes that people could get hurt.



no.



either the gear is questionable or not.  The specialization and training to use it are not part of the equation for a danger rating.  







How 'bout it pimp4crimps? is the book thrown out yet?  



If you throw out yours, I'll throw out mine.
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

F4?

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« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2007, 06:01:19 PM »
Quote
either the gear is questionable or not. The specialization and training to use it are not part of the equation for a danger rating.



I think so. Many Holmgren routes utilize slinging knobs and natural pro. Yet, if you don't know how to utilize the pro the route will seem run-out.



Finally a discussion!
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