Standards for R or X ratings

[mungeclimber]

"Traditionally a climb does not get an R if the runout is not [ed] more than 2 grades lower than rating.  So 50 feet of 5.3 gets no R on a 5.6.  The

upper part of those climbs isn't even 5.3, the only thing that makes the climbing 5th class is the rope drag.  Without a rope a person can stand up and walk around, which by definition is not 5th class."

Actually, your appeal to tradition is ill founded. The only printed reference I know of is Clint's reference to the Colorado book definition: it is not uniformily applied to all 50 states, much less to Pinnacles prior guidebooks.

I think Rubine overused "R" and "X." I think Clint likes this system too, and I think that is where I first heard it defined. And it makes a lot of sense.

I don’t think Rubine overused R or X ratings most of the time. He was cognizant (sp?) of the type of rock Pinns offers. But I would ask for examples where this R or X definition has been applied outside of the Colorado example?  Under normal circumstances R or X could be applied liberally with good rock conditions. But where thru no fault of the climber’s own a fairer warning is appropriate given the rock quality being so poor, a heads up is appropriate.

Why?  If it is applied liberally then the meaning is diluted.  R no

longer means dangerous it means you might get scared, or if you pass out you could fall over backwards and hit your head.  You may fall 15 feet

and get a bruise so it had better get an R.  If they look at and see a

big gap between bolts on the topo then they know the bolts are far

apart.  The standard at the Pinnacles is that the rock is loose.  So

giving a route and R because the rock is loose to me is senseless since

it tells me nothing.  I can see putting an R is it is extraordinarily

loose since then the state of the rock is different than what I am

expecting which would be "loose".

[mungeclimber]

as to the dilution issue -



disagree as meaning can come from quantity, in addition to the quality.

[Brad Young]

Hey, in fairness you should attribute the quotes to who said them (I think). It's hard to tell that there are three speakers above, and that they don't all agree. Use my name where it fits if you wish to.

[The Big]

fine with me

[Brad Young]

Or leave names out to avoid issues about who's credible. My point is that as presented its hard to tell you're quoting a series of people. BTW, good call bringing this to a larger forum for discussion  Maybe bring it to Supertaco too, for a discussion  of the same issue beyond just Pinnacles?

[mungeclimber]

werd good idea



names aren't needed to discuss the ideas.



as scuffy would say about me "you just stir it up and watch what happens"

[Brad Young]

OK, it should be obvious from my comments that my view on this subject is very close to Mr Mud's. I might have said identical but for a communication I received from him this evening. He was describing a route in answer to a question I posed. (I got his permission to post this quote.)



Now, Dennis is one of my best friends in life. But sometimes he is so disingenuous that I just have to laugh. This is classic Mr Mud: "Do not know if you want to mention that if you blow the crux clip you can deck. I think no R [rating] though." I added the bracketed word for clarity.



What can you say to that? It's not "R" if you deck off the crux? Is it R if you only break one leg, or is it necessary to break two? I'd hate to hear his definition of "X!"

[mungeclimber]

aye, redline if you blow clip it could hurt.

[F4?]

I think Mr Mud has a point. A tricky clip should be mentioned, but folks get into trouble all the time on Wet Kiss when they blow the 2nd clip. That route is protected pretty well.



I like the Red Rocks ratings: PG, PG-13, R, X, XXX



The variables can be from runout, tricky pro, DES route, bad clips w/ decking potential, some loose rock & friking loose. Maybe PG-13 can be used for loose routes?



Most will agree that the gyms have made people want closer bolts. Having started on TM runouts, I have to wonder if stuff isn't that bad after all and in some cases "R" is no big deal. It's interesting to read on ST about the guys traversing on middle to get used to the rock.



That's my $.02

[mungeclimber]

give scenarios, if you can demonstrating what the pg, pg13, r, x and xxx ratings would be like.



ranges of scenarios are better

[salad]

brad, did you climb these routes this weekend?  what is your opinion?

[Brad Young]

I climbed Full Throttle with Factor and Jake. I then rappeled over the two on the left to place the bolts correctly on the topo.



I liked Full Throttle (and, by the way, I really like all three names). It presented, though an interesting twist on the "R", "X" question. The runout at the end is nearly half a rope length. The climbing eases slowly, but you're getting way up there. If the crux of the climb was, say, 5.7, I would give the climb an X. But, by the time you're really run out, the climbing is in the easy 5th class range. I don't think this justifies an X, but what do you do when the climbing is so run out it should be an X, but the moves are so much easier than the crux that it doesn't deserve one? I think the solution is to give it an R. The topo will help show the reason why too.



If Full Throttle were my route I'd add a sixth bolt.



The other two looked nice. I think they were bolted just right. I don't think either should get an R. Like any slab at Pinns, you could get hurt "cheese gratering" down the face, but every Pinns route would get an R if that were the standard. I think R needs to stand for something; it shouldn't be diluted.



I also intend to give the two on the left one star each (I talked to Mr Mud about this, I hope you other two agree). This isn't for the climbing itself, which looks just average, but for the postion of the routes and the fact that there aren't many full rope length climbs in that difficulty range. The two deserve some traffic.

[The Big]

Brad,

I think you climbed Full Throttle, which is the route to the left of Gary and Phylis.  Drop Zone is the far left of the three.

[Brad Young]

You're right, sorry. Now I'll add confusion by going back and editing my original post!

[salad]

Brad, thanks for your input.



We have all agreed (I think) that Full Throttle should get a sixth bolt.  Brad, do you feel it would deserve an 'R' rating even with the added bolt?

[Brad Young]

No, an added bolt, maybe 10 to 15 feet above the current last bolt would make the end run out, but getting easier and easier and, in my opinion, not R.

[mungeclimber]

THREE STARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mungeclimber]

oh, btw, Mr Mud has to put the bolt in as it was his lead for his birfday if I remember rightly.

[Brad Young]

OK, I led Drop Zone. I take back what I said. Yes on the rating and the star, it's a good line. But a leader who normally maxed out at 5.8 or 5.9 would freak on the runout at the end (60 feet?). On both this and Red Line the runout from the last bolt is not all that much easier than is the climbing past all the bolts. It would almost be an ambush not to give these routes an R. Like said, I can picture a new leader absolutely freaked 20 to 30 feet below the anchor.



Upon reflection, I think my earlier comments were based on my focus on the bolts (for topoing) and not on a view of the route as a whole.



Still, good lines and good names.

[The Big]

You can blame Mudworm for the runout on Drop Zone.  I am fairly sure she put in the last bolt.