Cataract Corner

[djh650]

seen this earlier.

[Zay]

another excuse for me to not climb 5.12

[Gavin]

Whoa, glad the climbing party made it out safely.

Cataract Corner was rap bolted by Carville in 1986, correct? I wonder if this could be a motivator to replace the old bolts (and perhaps change the location of the bolt just above the crux which most everyone (myself included) feels has terrible placement).

[F4?]

Damn!

Well there is a cool replacement project.

Agree with adjusting the crux clipping placement...

[JC w KC redux]

Clicking on the picture - that stud shows no rust (I see some slight surface rust on the nut).
I can't tell how long that wrench is but given the fact that the poster climbs 5.12 - they probably cranked too hard on the bolt and broke it.
Those bolts are not that old (34 years) but I have no idea what brand they are. They might be hardware store wedges.

[mudworm]

The first person account is posted to https://www.mountainproject.com/route/106329249/cataract-corner

4th bolt has broken off. When climbing I noticed 4th bolt hanger was very loose so I got my wrench out to tighten nut. When I turned wrench, nut didn’t turn, must have rusted and binded to the screw, and nut plus screw broke off. Needs replacement. May want to inspect all bolts on the route. I have the hanger in my possession for reuse if necessary, hanger looks ok.

I put blue climbing tape over the first hanger so hopefully no one tries the climb with no 4th bolt

-Travis Koh

[JC w KC redux]

If a nut is frozen on a stud you don't keep trying to turn it.

Likely the surface of the rock underneath the hanger disintegrated over time (very common at Pinns) and the hanger became loose.

That bolt could also have been a  2 1/2 inch split shaft. Those studs have an end to the threads and will only tighten so far before the nut bottoms out.

[mudworm]

I wonder if this could be a motivator to replace the old bolts (and perhaps change the location of the bolt just above the crux which most everyone (myself included) feels has terrible placement).

Thanks Gavin! On that same MtnProj page, Tom Davis said "Mike has given his blessing to clean up the bolt spacing and position..."

And is it true that there is not a bolt on the top 1/3 (easier) part of the (sport) route? I followed it years ago (not clean) and don't remember.

[JC w KC redux]

^^^
The topo shows it as 5.7R at the end.
If you can climb 5.12 - a 5.7 runout should put you to sleep imo.

[JC w KC redux]

As if mtn proj wasn't bad enough they also posted on fb.

At least one person echoed my comment on mtn proj.

Snug a bolt to a reasonable tightness? Sure - if you know what a reasonable level of tightness is.
Don't crank on an already tight bolt.


https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10104954619469728&set=gm.3487838117992353

[mudworm]

The topo shows it as 5.7R at the end.
If you can climb 5.12 - a 5.7 runout should put you to sleep imo.

I see. Thanks! I guess you are right. 5.7R is not too big a deal after 5.12; I just hope holds don't break on somebody on that runout.

[Brad Young]

I see. Thanks! I guess you are right. 5.7R is not too big a deal after 5.12; I just hope holds don't break on somebody on that runout.

In my never-humble opinion there is no real excuse for a runout like that though on a rap-bolted route. If it was a ground up route? Sure, gun for the top on easy ground. But the whole idea of rap-bolting is to create well protected routes (at least that's one of the ideas behind it).

Also, without checking, my best memory is that that was one of the few climbs on which the bolt holes were drilled using a Bosch (before the Park Service gave that idea a big "no"). If my memory is correct, that leaves even less of a reason to include a run out of that length.

And everyone knows that holds never break on The Monolith....

[Gavin]

Hah, I was just about to post a similar comment to Brad.

Given the circumstances of the original drilling / bolting, and Carville's blessing to update bolts and bolt placement, I think Cataract Corner would be well served by new bolts and some updated bolt placement.

The first 4-5 bolts are okay in their positions, but the bolt above the crux is terrible - you basically have to climb above the crux and then clip the bolt below your feet. The climbing gets quite a bit easier after that, but would still benefit from at least one more bolt to the top.

I would be willing to place new bolts for that route, but I don't have the gear / skill for effective bolt removal like Bruce, JC, or Brad.

[NOAL]

Might have to drill a new hole for the bolt that snapped off.  Guess that depends on how much threads are left.

[Brad Young]

I think that this may be a really good candidate for glue-in replacement bolts. New glue-ins are pretty darn good and this gets a lot of traffic - to include a lot of hang-dogging. And hang-dogging can work any mechanical bolt loose over time.

Lemme contact Jim Thornberg about this. He knows glue-ins and Pinnacles (and if he'd help, maybe it would be a good time to remove the old bolt next to the new glue-in that he placed on Lard Butt?).

I also think that having J.C. help would be critical to achieving the best possible workmanship (like, for example, trying to re-use most of the old holes). The beloved old curmudgeon doesn't work much on the older pure sport routes though. Should we beg him? Threats instead? Flattery? What can we do to keep the Chance Brothers out of the discussion?

[JC w KC redux]

Hah, I was just about to post a similar comment to Brad.
Given the circumstances of the original drilling / bolting, and Carville's blessing to update bolts and bolt placement, I think Cataract Corner would be well served by new bolts and some updated bolt placement.
The first 4-5 bolts are okay in their positions, but the bolt above the crux is terrible - you basically have to climb above the crux and then clip the bolt below your feet. The climbing gets quite a bit easier after that, but would still benefit from at least one more bolt to the top.
I would be willing to place new bolts for that route, but I don't have the gear / skill for effective bolt removal like Bruce, JC, or Brad.

Looking at the topo - the run from the crux with a 5.9 move just before the last bolt looks worse to me than the ending.
I agree with the idea that there was really no need for that wide spacing at the end - especially if it was (and it was) rap bolted.
It's inconsistent with the bolt spacing on the rest of the route.

Now as far as having the tools to remove what I am assuming are wedge bolts on that route - I don't have the tools for that.
Not being able to climb at that level I would also not be able to accurately determine where to place the crux bolt - which is moot since I probably have no way of removing the not-so-old wedge? bolts. If they are split shafts - that's a different story. All it usually takes to solve the mystery is to remove the hangers and look to see if the threads end. The other thing to look for is a letter stamped on the end of the bolt shaft - those two identifiers are not a guarantee but they are likely evidence for wedge (letter, no end to threads) versus split shaft (no letter, end to threads). I have in a few cases had longer split shafts or set bolts that had no end to the threads or hardware store wedge bolts that didn't have a letter on the end. Solve that mystery and take closeup pictures and we can talk. I guess the other shot to take would be to ask Carville if he remembers what he used. Tom Davis posted as recently as 2019 about this route on mtn proj. Maybe he knows - or keeps in contact with Carville. 

If the bolts have threads that bottom out - causing hanger looseness - that can be corrected with washers.

I'll just go ahead and say it too since others are thinking it but aren't likely to say it. I have little tolerance for rebolting issues being caused by people cranking on bolts that are already tight and snapping them off. That loose hanger problem probably could have been solved with a washer or two and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[Brad Young]

I revised that topo for the new book (about two years ago by rapping over the route to study it). The old one had the wrong number of bolts (if I recall correctly). And I adjusted the positioning too.

[JC w KC redux]

I revised that topo for the new book (about two years ago by rapping over the route to study it). The old one had the wrong number of bolts (if I recall correctly). And I adjusted the positioning too.

Invalid without pictures.

[mudworm]

New glue-ins...

I have a question regarding their durability with straight outward pulls. Usually, when people think about hang dogging, they think about the downward force on the hanger. But in the case of an overhanging route and when people work on it on TR, they have the rope clipped to keep the climber close to the wall. When hanging on TR below the draw, the force on the bolt is straight outward. This is the case with Feed the Beast. Will that repeated outward pull work glue-ins loose over time?

P.S. I appreciated the glue-ins on Feed the Beast.

P.P.S. Looks like in the case of Cataract Corner, an unintentional mistake will lead to a better route. Not all is lost then.

[Brad Young]

I can't do a "picture," at least not with any ease.

The topo is a Photoshop document and configuring that so that i could post it here? No way.

You've got Photoshop on your computer. Want me to email you a copy?