Author Topic: Cataract Corner  (Read 9338 times)

NOAL

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2020, 12:52:34 PM »
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I think that this may be a really good candidate for glue-in replacement bolts. New glue-ins are pretty darn good and this gets a lot of traffic - to include a lot of hang-dogging. And hang-dogging can work any mechanical bolt loose over time.

Lemme contact Jim Thornberg about this. He knows glue-ins and Pinnacles (and if he'd help, maybe it would be a good time to remove the old bolt next to the new glue-in that he placed on Lard Butt?).

I also think that having J.C. help would be critical to achieving the best possible workmanship (like, for example, trying to re-use most of the old holes). The beloved old curmudgeon doesn't work much on the older pure sport routes though. Should we beg him? Threats instead? Flattery? What can we do to keep the Chance Brothers out of the discussion?

I think this would be a good solution.

If a permission to use a power drill is not permitted then a good solution would be to have people who are willing to make multiple trips to hand drill the holes. Then Jim could come down and install the bolts.

In any case if the bolts on the Monolith need to be replaced and brought to modern standards.Maybe we can all pool our knowledge, good samaritanship, and work together to make that happen.

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have little tolerance for rebolting issues being caused by people cranking on bolts that are already tight and snapping them off.   

I think the person who tightened the bolt had the best intentions. Most climbers dont even carry a wrench.  At least this guy was trying to the best he could versus others who would not even try to tighten the nut but would just remove the hanger and not leave a note.

Brad Young

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2020, 12:54:59 PM »

I think the person who tightened the bolt had the best intentions. Most climbers dont even carry a wrench.  At least this guy was trying to the best he could versus others who would not even try to tighten the nut but would just remove the hanger and not leave a note.


I agree.

And what's more irritating, a "botched" attempt to fix it, or the usual post on some site telling "the world" that this or that bolt is a problem and expecting that "someone" will just go fix it?


Brad Young

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2020, 12:55:35 PM »
^^^

This is, by the way, a rhetorical question (no need for an answer).


JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2020, 12:56:22 PM »
Might have to drill a new hole for the bolt that snapped off.  Guess that depends on how much threads are left.

Yep.
The route probably just needs the one bolt replaced.
Should we contact the climber who broke it and use the old adage from childhood?
You break it. You pay for it.
Except in this case - You broke it. You pay for it. You fix it.   :lol:
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Gavin

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2020, 01:00:36 PM »
I will leave it to others with expertise to contact Jim, Carville, etc.

I would be happy to be a part of the efforts to manually re-drill holes, if needed, or to at least add a bolt higher on Cataract and change the location of the post-crux bolt. I have climbed Cataract enough times that I think getting proper bolt placement for drilling would not be that complicated - preferred drill sites could be marked with a bit of chalk while climbing up on a fixed line.

F4?

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2020, 01:01:28 PM »
Noal, yes, it's a good idea to work on it as a team drilling replacement holes as they take some time to drill by hand.
On Shake-n-Bake we had 2 folks drilling at the same time.

It's well worth the end product.

Count me in to help with the replacement.

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NOAL

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2020, 01:05:08 PM »
I am willing to go down during the week and drill holes too.


Brad Young

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2020, 01:07:40 PM »

Noal, yes, it's a good idea to work on it as a team drilling replacement holes as they take some time to drill by hand.
On Shake-n-Bake we had 2 folks drilling at the same time.


Actually, it looks like you had three people drilling at the same time on that effort (according at least to the photos that Bruce posted to MtnProject just within the last few days - photos which include you, by the way).



F4?

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2020, 01:14:01 PM »
True Brad, but I could not remember the exact numbers, so I rounded down to be conservative.

The other niggle was the drill size, as the glue-in hole is much larger.

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JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2020, 01:26:44 PM »
I will leave it to others with expertise to contact Jim, Carville, etc.

Me too.



I would be happy to be a part of the efforts to manually re-drill holes, if needed,

Count me in to help with the replacement.

I am willing to go down during the week and drill holes too.


Have fun! I'll listen for the sound of your synchronous tapping.


P.S. What the he!! is a niggle F4?
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2020, 01:31:11 PM »

P.S.S. Rubine's newer edition lists the bolts as 3/8 wedges.

Just wanted to say...Good Luck...We're all counting on you!
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mudworm

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2020, 06:38:18 PM »
Actually, it looks like you had three people drilling at the same time on that effort (according at least to the photos that Bruce posted to MtnProject just within the last few days - photos which include you, by the way).

The person at the bottom seems to have to get rained on from all the drill dust? And where is the helmet police? That's a lot of trust in F4 not to accidentally drop his hammer! (Edit: Never mind. F4 was the one getting rained on. I guess Mud was safe.)


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F4?

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2020, 06:56:44 PM »
Ha! Great picture.

My memory and math was off!!

Yeah, and we still barely finished both routes that weekend.
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Brad Young

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2020, 06:59:50 PM »

Never mind. F4 was the one getting rained on.


Explains a lot doesn't it  ;) ;D

F4?

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2020, 07:05:43 PM »
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Explains a lot doesn't it
Alpinists are used to it.

Mr. Mud has a think skull.
Now right there you can see the 1st pitch crux bolt spacing.....
Me- easy terrain.
Mr. Mud- bottom of the crux
Brian B- Post crux
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NOAL

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2020, 09:23:47 PM »
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Mr. Mud has a think skull

Sometimes I wish mine had this feature.

Bruce Hildenbrand

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2020, 11:16:29 AM »
Bolts break when over-torqued along stress risers which are usually and unfortunately a part of the design.  One of the most common ways a wedge bolt breaks is at the spot where the small end of the moveable cone sits at the non-thread end of the bolt.  This is because the bolt is significantly narrower there than the rest of the bolt.  This is how we used to "remove" wedge bolts before someone came up with the technique for spinning them to set the cone and keep it from sliding up the shaft.

However because the wedge bolt is so popular in the construction world there are lots of companies who make them and because of this the quality can really vary.  This means that it is very likely that the other place there is a significant stress riser on a wedge bolt, which is the threads, could also break during over-torquing.  This is why it is highly recommended when using wedge bolts for climbing that you purchase ones which used "rolled" rather than "cut" threads.  "Rolled" threads eliminate this stress riser.

In the case of the bolt on Cataract Corner it is possible that the bolt did break because of a stress riser in the threads.

As far as glue-ins are concerned, yes, someone with experience should place them.  The most common way to do this is to drill all the holes at once and when they are done, then go back and glue all the bolts in. One essential step is to save a sample of the glue coming out of the mixing nozzle so that you can ensure that it was mixing correctly and will set up properly. BTW, yesterday, the ASCA just placed an order for 400 titanium glue ins from a company in the UK.  They take a 9/16" hole so drilling isn't going to be much fun, but I am sure they would provide the hardware for this effort.

F4?

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2020, 07:03:15 PM »
Hey Bruce, 1more niggle with the glue in glue...it’s temperature sensitive!
I remember the horror at the end of the day on Lava Falls when it got cloud and glue was not coming out willingly!!

And I still have nightmares from helping to drill those damn holes!!


 
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Bruce Hildenbrand

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2020, 07:54:33 PM »
Hey, I just remember a few years ago I wrote an article for Climbing Magazine(soon to be merged with Rock and Ice) about bad bolts, how to identify them and what to do when you do(the thing that you do):

https://www.climbing.com/skills/how-to-identify-bad-climbing-bolts/

Brad Young

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2020, 08:16:59 PM »
Pretty run of the mill article Bruce, at least when compared to the earlier dam article you wrote  ;)  ;D

Seriously though, when combined with the photos, it's a very good piece.

But please tell me that that photo of a quarter incher sticking way out of the hole was staged? It had to be, right?