Cataract Corner

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

You mean this dam article?

https://rockandice.com/climbing-destinations/the-best-dam-climb-in-america/

That bolt you referred to in the article was from a photo by Clint.  I believe he told me it was somewhere on Middle Cathedral in Yosemite.

[JC w KC redux]

That bolt you referred to in the article was from a photo by Clint.  I believe he told me it was somewhere on Middle Cathedral in Yosemite.

The caption says it is loose from the wall. It doesn't say how.
The shaft appears to be most of the way out - I can see most of the "split" portion protruding.
Looks staged.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

I don't know if the photo was staged or not.  When I lived in Yosemite Valley for a couple of years in the mid-late 1970's we came across a few bolts which look like this.  People would rap webbing between the hanger and the wall to reduce leverage.

It was at about that time that the only major epidemic of bolt breakage that I know of occurred.  George Meyers, who a few years after this incident would popularize topos for rock climbing guidebooks and found Chockstone Press, bought a huge lot of 1/4" split shafts.  To defray some of his costs he sold a bunch of them to other climbers in the valley.  After a number of these bolts started breaking under bodyweight an investigation determined that during the manufacture, the process creating the split shaft had been flawed and had severely weakened the bolts.  By then these bolts were on numerous routes in the Valley.  My partner and I broke one on a route over at the Arches Slabs(Moving Like a Stud(great route, BTW) and one over on the Apron by Friday the 13th.  Them's were bad bolts for sure!

I should add that the majority of the bolts i remove during rebolting, both here and in Colorado, I send to the Colorado State University at Fort Collins for testing.  Almost all the bolts are amazingly strong in shear(the only testing they can do).  They tested some 40 year old 1/4" ers which Clint removed from a climb in Tuolumne Meadows and they all tested about 4000lbs in shear.

[JC w KC redux]

This is why it is highly recommended when using wedge bolts for climbing that you purchase ones which used "rolled" rather than "cut" threads.  "Rolled" threads eliminate this stress riser.

Eliminate or reduce the stress riser?
I've seen threads on this topic where engineers can't agree.

I'd also like to know how many bolt failures have been documented on cut threads.

[mynameismud]

I know I am an outlier here but I am fine with the bolt spacing on Cataract Corner.  Having to push through the crux then clip is part of what made the route.  Moving the bolts and removing the runout at the end makes it just another sport route.  The thing is with the crux even though you have to push through the crux moves to clip, the fall is clean.  The lower bolts spacing is perfectly fine.  Cataract is a physically challenging route, having to push through the crux adds a bit of a mental challenge as well. 

I like the idea of glue ins.  We did those two routes on the balconies in two days.  We drilled all the holes then put in the glue ins.  This could be done with Future Shock at the same time. 

[mudworm]

I know I am an outlier here but I am fine with the bolt spacing on Cataract Corner.  Having to push through the crux then clip is part of what made the route.  Moving the bolts and removing the runout at the end makes it just another sport route.  The thing is with the crux even though you have to push through the crux moves to clip, the fall is clean.  The lower bolts spacing is perfectly fine.  Cataract is a physically challenging route, having to push through the crux adds a bit of a mental challenge as well. 

I hate you!

[squiddo]

I hate you!

Wait, isn’t the correct response “DIE”

LOL! What did you expect mudworm? Salty old crusty hard climber....course he’s
going to lean into it!

[mynameismud]

I hate you!

I am feeling the love.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Eliminate or reduce the stress riser?
I've seen threads on this topic where engineers can't agree.

I'd also like to know how many bolt failures have been documented on cut threads.

John,

you need to talk the folks at Fixe.  They ran tests on "rolled" threads vs "cut" threads and found that, in shear, the bolts with "cut" threads were 33% the strength of bolts with "rolled" threads.  My guess is that as this is their core business and they don't want to go bankrupt with lawsuits that they are pretty diligent with their testing and interpretation of the results.

We also replicated this data at Colorado State University at Fort Collins (4000lbs vs 1300lbs).

[F4?]

I hate you!

Ah, but fear not Mudworm the little wheels are turning in my head....

I have a simple solution...custom length cable draws.
Have a runout or clip you don't like, simple.
Attach a cable draw to the bolt above, extended down to your preferred clipping stance.
Lava Falls, Shake n Bake and Mamary Pump will be the test cases.

Now back to rolled versus cut. You gotta give it to them Spaniards, they must have been doing a fair about of testing to perfect their designs...versus Powers, whose are for concrete.

[mudworm]

...the little wheels are turning in my head....

How little?

Attach a cable draw to the bolt above, extended down to your preferred clipping stance.

That reminded me... A couple of years ago when I was on an outing with some modern climbers, I was shown some looooonnnng stiff quickdraws, exactly designed for short people. I couldn't believe it! Forgot about that.

Now back to rolled versus cut.

I like my steel cut oatmeal, but when I make cookies, I use rolled. I had those cookies just now!

[mynameismud]

I prefer when it does not roll over my belt.

[squiddo]

With regards to if the photo in my article in Climbing Magazine about bad bolts was staged, go to the source.  Clint says that he found that bolt on the unfinished pitch 5 of a previously unknown route on the Middle Cathedral Apron in Yosemite in 2008.  Here are two photos of how he initially found it and after he cleaned off the sling(which is the photo in the Climbing Magazine article).

https://link.shutterfly.com/pmwjvg4WEcb

https://link.shutterfly.com/GsQMKG7WEcb

Man that sling and the thought of clipping it makes me ill. Too many times in the Valley.

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Oops!  My Shutterfly account is a bit messed up and I was trying to actually embed the photos in my message.  I deleted my original message(referenced by Sqiddo above).  Hopefully, I can get that or my Flickr account updated so I can embed photos and not use links.

With regards to if the photo in my article in Climbing Magazine about bad bolts was staged, go to the source.  Clint says that he found that bolt on the unfinished pitch 5 of a previously unknown route on the Middle Cathedral Apron in Yosemite in 2008.  Here are two photos of how he initially found it and after he cleaned off the sling(which is the photo in the Climbing Magazine article).

https://link.shutterfly.com/pmwjvg4WEcb

https://link.shutterfly.com/GsQMKG7WEcb

[Bruce Hildenbrand]

Hey, we have photos!

With sling in place:

clint_bolt_sm by Bruce Hildenbrand, on Flickr

With sling removed:

bolt_1 by Bruce Hildenbrand, on Flickr

Vedict: not staged

[JC w KC redux]

Waiting for F4? to say that bolt is fine.

[F4?]

The bolt is fine, just girth hitch the stud.

Better than nothing.

At least in Stromland all the bolts are good. Lacking in some areas, but still good.

[mynameismud]

Great photo's Bruce.  I have clipped a few of those, even added my own sling.

Also thanks for the info on rolled vs cut, good to know there is actual testing going on and that it is known that rolled is better than cut.  I have for the most part gone back to strictly using 5 piece.

When trying to tighten a bolt I have broken at least one bolt that I can remember.  Sometimes sh*t just happens.  But, I am also the guy that replaced a bolt using just a crowbar, because I left the hammer at home and did not realize this until after pulling the bolt.  How many people can say they drilled a bolt using a crowbar?

[F4?]

What about torquing the bolts with the crowbar?

[NOAL]

My guess is that as this is their core business and they don't want to go bankrupt with lawsuits that they are pretty diligent with their testing and interpretation of the results

I noticed they still offer 3/8" SS Powers 304 wedge bolts on their website. 

https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/bolts.html

They also offer their stamped wedgebolts that mention the stamping in the product description.

There is no mention of milling or stamping in the description of for the Powers products on their site so can we just assume that these are milled?

If  Fixe is so worried about getting sued why would they continue to offer these Powers products?