Author Topic: Cataract Corner  (Read 9339 times)

JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #60 on: January 03, 2021, 10:30:17 AM »
I noticed they still offer 3/8" SS Powers 304 wedge bolts on their website. 

https://fixehardware.com/index.php/fixe/climbing-hardware/bolts.html

They also offer their stamped wedgebolts that mention the stamping in the product description.

There is no mention of milling or stamping in the description of for the Powers products on their site so can we just assume that these are milled?

If  Fixe is so worried about getting sued why would they continue to offer these Powers products?

I couldn't agree more Noal.

If you read about rolled versus cut threads it says that the cost is much less for rolled threads.
That begs the question - why would a huge company like Powers (owned by Dewalt/Black and Decker) cut threads if it's not cost effective? Powers also produces the long sleeve bolts Mr. Mud mentioned.

From what I have read, it sounds like cut threads are used when it is a short/small/custom production run and if the size of the bolt exceeds 1 inch in diameter.
There is evidently a size/diameter limit on rolled threads.

I also would like to see data regarding how many cut thread bolts have failed and caused climbing accidents.

I know personally at least half a dozen people who use Powers wedges for their FA's (Pinns and elsewhere).




 
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #61 on: January 03, 2021, 10:31:27 AM »

By the way...I haven't seen anyone report that they replaced this bolt.
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Bruce Hildenbrand

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2021, 12:24:41 PM »
Noal,

you asked a good question so I decided to go to the source and I called up Kevin Daniels who owns Fixe.  I asked him about the fact that he sells bolts with both "rolled"(Fixe calls them "stamped") and "cut" threads.  He said that the products that Fixe makes(as stated on the Fixe website) are the strongest and best bolts for climbing.  But, he acknowledged that they cost more money than bolts which are made for construction so to keep his doors open he needs to offer a more cost-friendly option to his customers.

I asked him if he was concerned about the strength of wedge bolts with "cut" threads and he replied that Powers stands behind their bolts and that is good enough for him.

NOAL

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2021, 01:32:09 PM »
Bruce,

Thanks for asking about that. That's kind of what I deduced.  I buy my bolts through the account I have for my business with a fastener supplier in SF.  I can buy all of the bolts offered on the Fixe site for a significantly lower price.  You just have to know what to ask for. 

Powers definitely has to stand behind the products that they offer. Just think of all the fasteners that are used to hold up things in public spaces that we walk or drive under everyday. 

I think having the option to buy a wedge bolt that is over engineered specifically for climbing gives climbers piece of mind and being able to have a middle man like Fixe takes away some of the hand wringing and "what ifs" that climbers are prone to obsessing over.  More POWER ;) to Fixe if they can capitalize on that.

There are specs for all kinds of construction and climbing products but it is ultimately up to the user to use their own best judgement where to use them. 

For instance,  a long wedge bolt with cut threads maybe  fine on a "no fall" non sport route but not the best for a sport route say on the monolith where there are climbers working a route (especially on a loose hanger sawing into the threads) and  lowering off one bolt.  Maybe this combined with the seaside environment is why some of the 316 stainless wedges at Mickey's have failed under body weight.

 It would be nice to see the Monolith updated with glue in's and the old junky wedge bolts replaced.   Like I said upthread I am willing to volunteer my time to make that happen.








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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2021, 01:46:27 PM »
Maybe this combined with the seaside environment is why some of the 316 stainless wedges at Mickey's have failed under body weight.

The coastal/seaside environment will eat through any metal - stainless or not.
The only bolt I would trust in that environment would be one I just placed - and just that once.
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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2021, 02:20:12 PM »
Ahhh, Mickey's Beach. Grave Yard for bolts.

25yrs later I gotta wonder if the U Glue-ins they placed are still there. Folks put in alot of effort to maintain the bolts compared to how they were 90-93....prior to the Stainless Glue-in U bolts.

What fun routes at a great setting. Gotta bring your A Game!

Maybe worth a visit this spring when the tide is low and the rock dry.

Here is a good Mickey's tangent for you.....
We go to Mickey's circa '94 around March/ April and something just looks odd.... There is more light in the pit area where we would lay the packs. We go to marvel at the Beach Crack and assess if we can do rust never sleeps.

Where did the beach crack go???? WTF?? the Wall fell off!!! WOAH!

No internet, no Mtn Project, No Supertopo.

We came back in May and the locals had already bolted the newly exposed rock!!!





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JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2021, 02:50:01 PM »
I called up Kevin Daniels who owns Fixe.  I asked him about the fact that he sells bolts with both "rolled"(Fixe calls them "stamped") and "cut" threads.  He said that the products that Fixe makes(as stated on the Fixe website) are the strongest and best bolts for climbing.  But, he acknowledged that they cost more money than bolts which are made for construction so to keep his doors open he needs to offer a more cost-friendly option to his customers.
I asked him if he was concerned about the strength of wedge bolts with "cut" threads and he replied that Powers stands behind their bolts and that is good enough for him.

I would like to see the documentation that says Powers bolts have cut threads. I can't find it.

From a production/business perspective this makes no sense to me - especially since Black and Decker/DeWalt is probably the biggest hardware manufacturer in the world - and they didn't get there by wasting time and money (which is what cutting threads does).

From an engineer I know;

I can't say I've done extensive research but I'd say that all the common wedge and sleeve bolts have rolled threads. There might be some exotic bolts with cut threads but I've never used one.

Rolled threads are the norm for large volume production. Rolled is stronger, has better fatigue performance, uses less material, produces less waste and is faster to do than any method of cutting.

Cut threads are most commonly used where high precision is more important than strength,  where production volume is small, the part is very small or very large.

Threaded rod or all-thread is rolled and doesn't have a shoulder.

Nuts generally have cut threads because that is the easiest and cheapest way to thread them.




Here is a picture he sent me of a couple bolts with rolled threads that were sitting on his desk.





If Fixe bolts are rolled, that means the production cost is cheaper - so why are they so expensive?

I would imagine the answer is - they are a relatively small, specialized, European company.

I still love and buy their hangers but I haven't seen them put their bolt/hanger combos on sale for many years.
I used to buy all my stuff from them when they ran those sales a couple times a year.
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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2021, 02:59:22 PM »
I disagree, the threads are far inside the hole.

How can cut threads break?
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2021, 03:48:01 PM »
I disagree, the threads are far inside the hole.
How can cut threads break?

Let's keep this fire burning until something gets done.
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Brad Young

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2021, 07:13:35 PM »
I just emailed those who expressed an interest in rebolting this route. It looks like we've got drillers and a climber (Jim Thornburg) who knows the rock and knows glue-in bolts (the things he's proposing look really good and big).

We're moving on to scheduling.

If anyone is interested in helping but I didn't include you in the email, your willingness to help wasn't obvious enough to get through my dense skull (so email me and I'll include you in).


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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2021, 09:42:59 PM »
Thanks Brad.

We need Clint the robo driller.

Mr Mud, meh he’s gotten soft.
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mynameismud

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2021, 10:55:09 PM »
DIE
Here's to sweat in your eye

Bruce Hildenbrand

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2021, 11:19:07 AM »
I just wanted to give an update about Fixe which will more fully answer Noal's question.

The website that Noal referenced is for a climbing bolt product company which is owned by Kevin Daniels.  He is the distributor for Fixe products in the USA.  Kevin is not an employee of Fixe nor does Fixe in Spain, which produces Fixe's products, own his company.

So, as stated in my previous E-mail, Kevin has decided to carry the Powers bolts so as to offer a lower-cost option.  This is a decision he has made for his company, not a decision made by Fixe in Spain.  I hope this helps clarify the situation.

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2021, 11:24:11 AM »
Thanks Bruce!

Makes sense Kevin is a Distributor of Fixe products and Powers.

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mudworm

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2021, 06:28:03 PM »
This was posted on Facebook 2 hours ago:

Inch by inch, I will get there.

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2021, 08:25:48 PM »
Thanks Adam!,

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mudworm

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2021, 08:38:53 PM »
Thanks Adam!,

Don't think he can hear you. Did he use to visit here? I have a feeling he doesn't any more.

P.S. Reposted earlier screenshot.
Inch by inch, I will get there.

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2021, 08:42:25 PM »
Why so many banned, need to offer free beer
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2021, 08:29:18 AM »

Don't think he can hear you. Did he use to visit here? I have a feeling he doesn't any more.

P.S. Reposted earlier screenshot.

Atomizer is still around.
He posts on here every once in a while.
The most recent was on my birthday in 2020.
I should have posted earlier about his work since we have been in touch recently.
Adam has a real passion for Pinnacles and has done a fair share of rebolting.
He's been a great member of our community for a Long time (pun intended).

He does great work and it is much appreciated.

He may get on here and comment in the next few days.
I will update the Master List with the info he gave me.

The only Cataracts that concern me these days are the ones growing in my eyes.
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Atomizer

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Re: Cataract Corner
« Reply #79 on: January 14, 2021, 03:24:15 PM »
Wow. I didn't know there was so much talk here about the Cataract Corner situation. I Hope I wasn't stepping on any toes by going for it with approval first. We had to leave our house for four days, due to construction, so we headed down to the Pinnacles to camp and see if we remembered how to climb. I've had a sack of 1/2" bolts from the ASCA sitting unused for quite a while making my arm sore when I looked at them.

I replaced bolts 2-4 with 1/2" powers bolts. I initially replaced the snapped off bolt #4 with a 2 3/4" bolt. Curse me if that seems short... maybe it is, yet the rock seemed pretty damn solid. Then I looked at the other bolts and got a little freaked out and had to come back two days later and replaced 2 and 3 with 4 3/4" bolts. It didn't even take that long, maybe 30 mins a pop and I still have all my finger nails. two of the reaming bolts look bad. Tom and I had planned to go back this week but life got in the way. This route will be completely fixed soon with all new bolts and a more enjoyable retro-bolted arrangement. I'm happy with the choice of the 1/2" bolts I put in. Being old wedgies, the old bolts snapped off. One much easily than the other.

As for glueins, I think it's totally overkill. One of the problems with the pinnacles is the hold breaking issue. And to move or remove a gluein later is impossible. Also a lot of glueins need to be notched and the holes drilled at a downward angle, so they don't spin and to keep the upper carabiner of your quickdraw from spinning upside-down and unclipping.  Most of the glueins at the pinnacles are not placed well. Honestly that bolt on the crux of Lava Falls is hands down the worst placed gleuin I've seen anywhere in the world... Sorry if I rattle anyone with that, but I have trouble not being honest. That said I'd welcome glueins with the Master Thornburg being there to advise.

Looking forward to doing more of this type of work in the future. And I hope this is the statement of death for 3/8" bolts on the classic sport routes. of Pinnacles.