Author Topic: Lonesome No More  (Read 9265 times)

Brad Young

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Lonesome No More
« on: February 10, 2021, 08:10:16 AM »
When I researched the 2007 guidebook I didn’t have to start from scratch. Clint Cummins had made most of the topos used in the 1995 guide and he let me use his originals. I used these as the basis for many of my topos (I did maybe 20 from scratch). He also kept a route list that he freely gave to me. I had to research lots of routes (and rumors of routes) but like the topos, his list was a big leg up.

I don’t have a copy of his early 2000s route list any more, but my memory of the events I’m about to describe is pretty good. There were two routes on his list at The Shepherd on the West Side. These routes, Lonesome Bolt and Sheepish, both started under a single bolt that was 15 feet above the ground. I think he toproped the routes out of curiosity about the one bolt. If I recall correctly he named the routes. He rated both 5.6. He didn’t claim or attribute any first ascent. Critically, on his list, Clint listed both routes as topropes.

I recently emailed Clint about these routes. I gave him my best memory and asked what he remembered. Basically he didn’t remember anything about them. He told me I was on my own as far as their history and what I might do with them.

Going back to the pre 2007 time period, I remember thinking to myself about how two routes with a bolt could be “toprope” routes. A bolt is lead protection and is completely not consistent with a toprope. I didn’t climb either route before the guidebook was finished, but I made a decision about how to list both routes in the book based on the one bolt that was there and on the “easy” 5.6 rating. Given the “easy” climbing and the bolt, these had to be leads, and so I listed them that way. Although they had to be leads, they were obviously run out, so I gave Lonesome Bolt an “X” sub rating and Sheepish an “R” sub rating. In the book, Lonesome Bolt is 5.6 X and Sheepish 5.6 R.

Soon after the book came out I was trying to “clean up” my own list of climbs as to some areas; to finish up routes I hadn’t previously climbed and, especially, finish up routes easier than 5.10. I led Sheepish. It seemed about right at 5.6 and was certainly run out enough to deserve the “R.” A few months later I led Lonesome Bolt (with Bob Walton belaying - thanks again Bob and sorry I scared you).

My ascent of Lonesome Bolt led to correction number 14 on the “Corrections” sticky thread on this site. Here’s a link:

http://www.mudncrud.com/forums/index.php?topic=1599.0

This route most certainly wasn’t 5.6. It had sustained, sequential 5.8 well above the one bolt. The “X” sub rating was absolutely justified and I began to wonder. With Lonesome Bolt in particular it wasn’t “just” 5.6, and it wasn’t really a lead so much as a free solo. Maybe listing it as a lead had been a mistake? Maybe it should have been left as a toprope (certainly the only known ascent prior to my virtual free solo was, if I recall correctly from Clint’s list, a toprope ascent).

On another subject (that becomes related to the rest of this a few lines down) there’s been some effort “before the new book comes out” to bolt some existing toprope routes. This seems like a legitimate exercise. There are some exceptions to the effort, such as where a route should be left as a toprope because it would crowd routes to either or both sides (Lounge Lizard Arete between The Big Pucker and The Wet Kiss comes to mind). But I think it’s pretty well agreed that leading is a better style than toproping, and so creating a lead climb probably makes a “better” route overall.

All of this information led me to start thinking. Instead of relegating Lonesome Bolt back to toprope status, maybe it would be better to make it a lead? I’d already “led” it in its X-rated state and so it clearly could be led. But why not also put in enough bolts to “finish” the route, to make it something that normal people could lead?

This last weekend I finally decided to do just that. Sheepish is OK as a 5.6 R, but Lonesome Bolt absolutely had to go back to being a toprope, or be made into a real route that could be led. John Cook had recently replaced the one bolt that serves both climbs, 15 feet above the ground. He had led Sheepish and expressed an interest in Lonesome Bolt. So on Sunday he and I (and Kathy) spent the day bolting Lonesome Bolt. The sustained and sequential 5.8 surprised me (as in: WTF was I thinking leading it and how in God’s name did Bob “let” me keep climbing when I led it?). It’s now a fairly well protected climb, although it will remain at no stars (not very great rock quality over most of the climbing although the critical holds seem good). The overall result is a very accessible and now leadable 115 foot long 5.8 to a two-bolt anchor and a walk off.

I didn’t take any photos, so all this boring post will consist of is this new information and story. But I think I saw Kathy taking shots of John’s lead.

Brad Young

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2021, 08:16:34 AM »
Also, although I'd intended to post about this before doing the bolting, I ran out of time and didn't.

The idea of posting was to give anyone who approved, objected to or had concerns about this action to voice them beforehand. I hope that if anyone has such thoughts they will still post.

JC w KC redux

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2021, 09:03:59 AM »
Although they had to be leads, they were obviously run out, so I gave Lonesome Bolt an “X” sub rating and Sheepish an “R” sub rating. In the book, Lonesome Bolt is 5.6 X and Sheepish 5.6 R.

It's in the book as 5.6R

There are some exceptions the effort, such as where a route should be left as a toprope because it would crowd routes to either or both sides (Lounge Lizard Arete between The Big Pucker and The Wet Kiss comes to mind).

I think you meant to say there are some exceptions to the effort.
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Brad Young

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2021, 09:08:37 AM »

It's in the book as 5.6R


Yes, that's right. The correction was from "R" to "X."


Quote

I think you meant to say there are some exceptions to the effort.


Yes, I made the edit.


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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2021, 09:17:51 AM »
Although they had to be leads, they were obviously run out,

I think there's also a real possibility that the single bolt was a project that never got finished.

Sheepish is borderline X (but that can be said of many Pinnacles R rated routes). 

I remember telling Larry Arthur I led that (April 2013) and he said - "Are you nuts? That's a toprope!!"
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2021, 09:31:49 AM »

JC redpoints Lonesome Bolt (main crux move). There are several sub cruxes.
Interesting climb. It would get a star were it not for the sub par rock in some spots.

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2021, 10:58:22 AM »
Here's a couple more (in sequence) of the sub cruxes.

Reaching high to start moving past bolt 3 (draw on bolt 2 below my left foot)





Careful moves while working toward bolt 4 (you can see the drill dust about 4 feet above my left hand)

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F4?

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2021, 03:10:38 PM »

Top rope converted to a lead route..
The commission will review your actions and report back.
I'm not worthy.

Brad Young

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2021, 03:16:15 PM »

Top rope converted to a lead route..
The commission will review your actions and report back.


Excellent plan. I like it. You go lead it and report. Soon. Get on it. Now.


mungeclimber

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2021, 02:34:30 PM »
"But I think it’s pretty well agreed that leading is a better style than toproping, and so creating a lead climb probably makes a “better” route overall."

While I disagree with this as a starting principle because it assumes too much, the end result seems worthy.

  • no history and a random bolt leads to a reasonable assumption that it was an abandoned project, especially if you look at the location relative to the rest of the pitch. That lends it amenable to establishing it.
  • The ordinary question of whether anyone has lead it to date thus establishing it as a free climb is asked and answered. Sufficient time has passed to correct the history, if it were to be corrected otherwise. If later, the history is uncovered, no moral fault can be attributed to establishing it.


And while it is preferable to establish it ground up with this history (and more fun) and I assume was, retrobolting with an FA'ist permission or by the FAist, top down hasn't seemed to be an issue and seems fine as well.

My only minor thought would be why use an anchor at 115ft?  With its convenient location, a convenience anchor, camouflaged, at 90 to 97 feet may have been a better choice?  Hindsight being 20/20 and not actually climbing at Pinns lately, and all that, as my good friend reminds me. :)
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2021, 04:52:14 PM »
My only minor thought would be why use an anchor at 115ft?  With its convenient location, a convenience anchor, camouflaged, at 90 to 97 feet may have been a better choice?  Hindsight being 20/20 and not actually climbing at Pinns lately, and all that, as my good friend reminds me. :)

I placed a bolt at 85 feet in a natural belay spot.
It is easy to belay there and back it up with the two bolts at 115 feet.
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mungeclimber

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2021, 10:36:01 PM »
I placed a bolt at 85 feet in a natural belay spot.
It is easy to belay there and back it up with the two bolts at 115 feet.

To clarify, the 'anchor' height suggested would be for lower off without having to descend off right.
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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2021, 11:04:23 AM »
To clarify, the 'anchor' height suggested would be for lower off without having to descend off right.

I understood that.
I lobbied for adding a second bolt at 85 feet to have the anchor you suggest (it was my suggestion as well).
I would never have placed a "lead" bolt there - but that is what it has become...
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waldo

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2021, 05:57:04 PM »
I think there's also a real possibility that the single bolt was a project that never got finished.

Sheepish is borderline X (but that can be said of many Pinnacles R rated routes). 

I remember telling Larry Arthur I led that (April 2013) and he said - "Are you nuts? That's a toprope!!"

Good work JC and Brad! I'd vowed never to go near these two again after my initial meetings with them in the 90's, but Brad assured me he had to have a look at them. I thought he knew something I didn't. They were no easier to belay than to lead.

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2021, 09:17:18 PM »
Sheepish is to the right of Lonesome bolt, yeah? I free soloed some route on that face a few years back, but my memory recalls that the route was rated 5.4... but Sheepish sounds like the one, so idk. Don't have my book with me...

It was to the right of lonesome bolt, up a rather nondescript gully/depression. Cool view up there. Walk off to the right...

Tuff Chik

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2021, 07:56:10 AM »
Sheepish is to the right of Lonesome bolt, yeah? I free soloed some route on that face a few years back, but my memory recalls that the route was rated 5.4... but Sheepish sounds like the one, so idk. Don't have my book with me...

It was to the right of lonesome bolt, up a rather nondescript gully/depression. Cool view up there. Walk off to the right...

The 5.4 is the Lamb and it is to the right of Lonesome Bolt and Sheepish (5.6).   We have soloed the Lamb numerous times at the end of the day to get in a little more movement and to enjoy the view.

traslin

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2021, 07:10:41 AM »
How do you setup a top rope anchor on this route? I've tried a couple times now, and I can't figure it out. Last time I had a couple 240 mm slings and a 14ish foot cordellete, and coming off the bolts in the ledge area, I was still about 6 feet away from the southern edge directly over Lonesome. Even if I made it all the way to the edge, it looked like there was still going to be a lot of drag.

NOAL

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2021, 10:23:28 AM »
Belay from the top.

Brad Young

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2021, 11:08:56 AM »
^^^

It's a pretty obvious solution. Walk to the top and belay from there.

On the other hand, J.C. may have been correct about this route (Lonesome Bolt) and the newer route he put up to it's right (Leg of Lamb).

John put in what is now the last lead bolt on Leg of Lamb with the thought that he'd maybe add another bolt in the same place and make a two-bolt belay just under 100 feet up. It then turned out that when we put bolts on Lonesome Bolt, it also went directly to the same Leg of Lamb last bolt, using that as its last bolt too. And, the natural line of Sheepish joins Lonesome Bolt as does Lamb Chop (which is to the right of Leg of Lamb). The toprope route Mutton climbs to the same spot.

The end result was that four leads and one toprope all share at least one bolt, the last lead bolt on Leg Of Lamb. This bolt is in the spot where John thought he might make a second two-bolt anchor.

However, even considering the number of routes that climb to this spot, I had asked John to not make a two-bolt belay there. In other words, I talked him out of making that an anchor. This may have been a very old-fashioned effort on my part to avoid some slight proliferation of top belay anchors.

John's thought was that a second two-bolt anchor less than 100 feet up would allow yo-yo topropoing of all of these routes.

My thought was that there was only 20 or 30 feet of non-exposed class four from what is now the last lead bolt on these climbs to the already existing two-bolt top anchor. And, since the only natural descent from that last lead bolt, if it were made into an anchor, takes a climber directly to the existing two-bolt anchor, why proliferate? Stated another way, since the only easy descent goes past the existing anchor, wouldn't a second, lower anchor be redundant? Wouldn't it be an unnecessary proliferation?

So, to me an anchor there seems unnecessary. But, in the modern climbing world convenience sometimes matters (I've put in convenience bolts myself, most recently on a new route where the first pitch top anchor has a third bolt to allow rappelers to spread out some - purely a convenience piece).

Anyway, yes it's very easy to walk to the top and to belay above the routes from the existing two bolt anchor. A yo-yo belay from that anchor is possible too (it's up 115 feet) but is very hard to do because of rope drag (try having a belayer placed out away from the rock a bit). But maybe these aren't convenient enough for the modern climbing world. Maybe I'm a dinosaur and a mountaineer (actually, there's no doubt about the first of these).

Should the issue (a second, two-bolt top anchor) be re-visited? I think John still disagrees with my view but politely deferred to it.






Brad Young

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Re: Lonesome No More
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2021, 11:12:59 AM »

To clarify, the 'anchor' height suggested would be for lower off without having to descend off right.


I don't think you were clear Munge that the two-bolt anchor at 115 feet was already there. It was a question of using it as an already-existing anchor, or placing a second, newer anchor lower.