Adopt a crag at the Pinnacles

[squiddo]

Lord....at the time that area "went up" I was close to Doug Martin.....what a bomb that sitch was. Still though, interesting question munge. I tend to compare a lot of concern to that location.

[F'ueco]

Why don't we just cut all the brush down so we can take our 4wd vehicles out to the crags?   

[squiddo]

F'ueco...how about a compromise.....Mountain Bike?

[F4?]

Nice work Joe. Tying in with the RockPile is great.

Maybe even give them feedback on other areas that need some TLC.

All we want is a PO/Tick free path to the Frog. That fire let the PO go crazy around there. Plus it's best to have 1 path than 10. The masses will never get out there, way too much trouble finding the trail at the back of the resv. Plus they'd be best heading out to Knuckle Ridge. That's where it's at!

Maybe we can get Mr Freestance out there and finish one of his many projects. If a red sling is faded white, does that mean it's open?

[F'ueco]

I don't have a mountain bike. But I do drive a Subaru. How about that compromise? If my Forester can make it out there, the "trails" are good enough!  

[mungeclimber]

Lord....at the time that area "went up" I was close to Doug Martin.....what a bomb that sitch was. Still though, interesting question munge. I tend to compare a lot of concern to that location.

oh, let me be clear, the recent improvements are NPS sanctioned trail work just a year or so ago, not the original time of some of the routes in there.

[squiddo]

lol, I hear you munge and glad at that. What, no special campsite at the base and piles of cig butts?

[mungeclimber]

lol, I hear you munge and glad at that. What, no special campsite at the base and piles of cig butts?

Nah, I leave my cigs in Yosemite.

[joe]

I will try to reply to the objections raised to the idea. 

First, I do believe having a designated trail will decrease the impact of hiking to the area.  Although I've only been out to the Frog/Hand a half dozen times, I've seen significant damage because of the shwacky approach, especially when first timers don't pick up the various points where the trail diverges or even when it crosses the wash.  Not everyone that goes out there has an excellent new guidebook to show them the way.  In fact, even the guidebook author may need to retrace a few steps here or there to minimize trampling on new growth.

The approach from the Hand to the Frog is a mess.  On  a recent trip, my partner stumbled and was injured while I was opting for a 5th class traverse across the snail.  I don't think stairs would at all be necessary, simply a good pruner, a few machetes, and some volunteers.

The brush surrounding the Frog is a problem both from the walk off South Side Shuffle to the base of the climbs (poison oak) and from the approach trail to the Get a Grip area.  It would take little to clear that up.

While I agree that the work would increase convenience, mostly I'm talking about access.  If increasing access would really make the destinations less enjoyable than perhaps we should not publicize the fact that there are climbs out there.  Put up routes and keep them out of the guide book and off the web. 
However, I would instead argue that increased traffic would actually improve those routes.  I've climbed most of the starred routes on both formations and many of them, while quality climbs, are detracted by the loose, dirty tops of the climbs.   It's been years since I did Love Line, but I am hoping more people would get on it before I repeat it, but it doesn't get any traffic despite it's 3 stars. 

Do we really believe there will be lines on Tuff or Ten Percent Inspiration?  And while I've never seen another party out there the limited number of times I've visited, would it be such a bad thing to share the formation with another party.  Presumably, just being out there means that they might be as deranged as us.

All of that being said, I will refrain from pursuing this further if there are enough objections.

word?

[Brad Young]

I've been going out to these two formations since 1986. I've been to them at least 20 times apiece. In all that time I have never, not once, seen any other people out there (that is, no-one who wasn't part of my group of climbers). I don't think crowding or traffic are significant issues; I don't think most Pinns climbers have the level of curiosity necessary to climb beyond Bear Gulch or the Machete/Flumes areas. A full fledged trail wouldn't make a difference. As another example, look at the High Peaks. There's a truly good quality trail there, and good climbs. And still no crowds of climbers.

I think a little maintenance would reduce the scattering of "use" trails. It would also make the hike a little easier, or to use Poppy's word, more convenient. But I just don't see a threat to solitude.

And Joe, you can use my name. Joe and I did retrace a few steps on the way out together; the "path" is as bad as I've ever seen it. And it was me that caught his foot on a shrub and did a header into brush. (Joe the scab from the laceration just came off, almost three weeks later. That one really hurt).

And all the jokes aside, there is a road there. Beyond the reservoir and up to the left turn leading up the creek some of the trail is still on the bed of the old CCC road, the one that comes from the West Side and was used in the 1930s for access to build the dam. When I first went out to this area in the 1980a, the "path" in this area was well clear of brush and followed this road from the reservoir to the turnoff.

[mynameismud]

I have been out to the Frog more than Brad has.  The approach that I, and at least one other, used for quite some time for the most part stayed to the left of the Reservoir.  We had to take out some brush and place a couple of cairns but it made for a very nice approach with no steep sections.  This approach wound around a  bit but maintained the "outback" atmosphere.  I still think it is a better approach than the one coming up from the Hand.  Even though our old approach has completly grown over and a person now has to crawl through a couple of spots.

That approach starts on the access trail to Gerties then goes past the Crud and Mud formation and on out to the Frog.  It comes up almost directly below Ski Jump.

The old road was a great approach.  I remember one partner that would always break off branches and kind of "maintain" it.  I was a bit of an environmental nut back then and it would really bug me.  But, the trail just kept getting narrower.  I swear one year it was more or less hikeable then the next year, no way.  No amount of brush thrashing would get a person through it.

I have met a couple of parties at the Frog and the Hand over the years.  Surprisingly there are still quite a few area's that allow that out there feeling.  I cannot count or remember the number of times that I have been up to Marmot and not seen another party the same goes for the Yaks, Knuckle Ridge, Flat Iron, Deserted Valley, Gargoyle, Condor Gulch, Scout Peak and  Freedom Dome area's. 

All of these area's have at least a handful of routes that are fun.  Of the above area's I think the Freedom Dome area probably gets the most traffic and it does not have the most easily climbable routes.  It is right off the trail and has lot's of route potential (ssshhhh).

[Poppy]

Good points everyone.

I agree that there will not likely be lines of climbers at the Frog.  My whole point is that part of the experience of going to the Frog is that there is no formal trail.  I hate seeing pruned branches everywhere I go.  It is refreshing to explore unimproved areas!

If the consensus is that only a few people go out there (with or without an improved trail), then what is the point of improving the trail?

This is not  the first time this type of discussion has taken place.  Leave No Trace principles addresses this very issue.  Example - crossing meadows or fields - if you are a party of a few, LNT suggests that it is best to spread out and cross the meadow as individuals so as not to cause a trail.  If you are many, or if there will be repeated crossings, it is best to concentrate your impacts into one trail.  I contend that Frog and Hand fall under the example of a few crossing a meadow...spread out and leave minimal trace.  In this case, the improved trail seems to be being considered for the convenience of a few and ultimately increases the impact.

I am not totally against making it a little easier to get from the Hand to the Frog.  I would just ask that folks carefully examine their motivations and keep the "improvements" commensurate with the actual needs.

[F'ueco]

Poppy, the problem with your 'meadow analogy' is that chaparral is impacted differently by people walking through it than is a meadow. If four people walk through brush using a separate line, there will be four separate trails that will be visible and followable by others. That's not the case in the meadow, where the grasses will spring back up shortly after you pass through.

I'd say that the way to minimize the impact is to have one trail to access the crag. It doesn't have to be a 10-foot wide highway, just something that is easy enough to follow that people will use it instead of making their own path. If the trail is positioned properly, it will last for many years and not contribute to the erosion of the topsoil.

[squiddo]

Mike, but what about your Subaru?

[F'ueco]

We'll have to clear the old CCC road as well...

[F4?]

We'll have to clear the old CCC road as well...

A classic road to nowhere example if I ever saw it. It's still strange to see it, but apart of the park's legacy.

Joe, I think Clint engineered a rap off to avoid the bushwack we did. He wouldn't place them fancy anchors for nothing.

[Poppy]

One last clarification:

I do not perceive the proposed improvements as a "threat to solitude" as Brad suggests.  I have agreed that few do, or will, go out there (which in itself is somewhat my whole point).

What I do perceive the proposed improvements as, is a "threat to experiencing an unimproved area of the Pinnacles." 

One can experience solitude at Flumes or the Upper Crust on any given weekday.  What one cannot experience at either of these locations is a sense of adventure or exploration.

[Brad Young]

Poppy: all valid points. Overall I think a bit of work is worthwhile, mostly to focus the wear, but also a bit for convenience ("a bit" because there's only one route at both The Hand and The Frog that I haven't done, and I may not be going out there much after I get that one done).

Another question: who are you? No-one thinks that way about Pinns anymore, and I find myself wondering whether I know you. And whether you've been climbing at Pinns for 20, 30 or 40 years. No need to answer if you don't want, but it's cool to see another person who likes Pinns for the adventure and not for the gym. I'm glad you're posting here.

[Poppy]

Hi Brad,
Ive only been climbing there 18 years.  I think my first time there was probably with you, MJJ and DH.  You and I have shared a rope on several occasions...Sports Challenge Rock at JTree, Hippopotamus at Pinnacles, last time probably at Royal's two years ago.  When you saw me at Lava Falls you tried to get me to slog out to the Tugboat....bumped into you at Discovery Wall last spring....

Got it?

[Brad Young]

I think I got it. I remember J Tree with DH and the usual crew. And I had my family along and we stayed at Mike's before it was fully done.

But if I'm right, it wasn't Hippopotamus, it was Yaks Wall and we did Liebacker's Lullaby, and other routes.  And I didn't try to get you to go to the Tugboat, it was Echoes on the Balconies I was hoping you could check out the then-existing description (as someone who hadn't been there). And you were there that day on Lava Falls with your girlfriend. And you used to live in Santa Barbara.

And there is no way that was 18 years ago. That isn't possible.