Author Topic: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)  (Read 3024817 times)

JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #380 on: April 28, 2014, 11:56:18 AM »
There's a long history of some toprope-only routes being valid.

TR's are routes.  


So if I onsight TR's listed in the book without falling or weighting the rope can I count them?
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NOAL

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #381 on: April 28, 2014, 11:56:33 AM »
Quote
TR's are actually much cleaner and in some ways a more pure form of climbing.
Agreed.  At pinnacles there are so many small formations that have existing one or two bolt routes on them. Is it really necessary to bolt additional routes on these formations when it is possible to just top rope them?  Personally for me this is an eyesore and is self serving.  

Also in some cases i can see  throwing an anchor on  top of something and checking it out before hand  might not be such a bad idea to prevent half finished projects or not so hot routes.

Just my two cents.

squiddo

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #382 on: April 28, 2014, 12:00:38 PM »
man this thread is going SOUTH. Real routes indeed and I need to only look at our local Castle Rock where I shake my head at the 4 bolt 30 foot TRs that were then "led". I enjoy climbing and one style does not fit all.....its all slippery slopes but we need to respect the FA. Aid to Free is one thing but runout to retro (without FA input) a whole other.
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Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #383 on: April 28, 2014, 12:22:03 PM »

So if I onsight TR's listed in the book without falling or weighting the rope can I count them?


Of course.

I don't prefer such routes, but if they only exist as TRs, then a clean ascent on toprope is a clean onsight.

Although I don't advocate this, I have been known to free solo some such routes (up to about 5.8, depending on the climb) and I count that as a "lead."

Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #384 on: April 28, 2014, 12:36:40 PM »
man this thread is going SOUTH. Real routes indeed and I need to only look at our local Castle Rock where I shake my head at the 4 bolt 30 foot TRs that were then "led". I enjoy climbing and one style does not fit all.....its all slippery slopes but we need to respect the FA. Aid to Free is one thing but runout to retro (without FA input) a whole other.

I agree that reto-bolting is one of the two great heresies in climbing. And it's a huge threat to what "adventure" remains in the sport.

But in this present conversation, the only (ONLY) discussion of retro-bolting is of a route that was only just established two weeks ago as a TR. As one can see from my posts, I expected that there would be an invitation from the first ascent party to re-do this climb as a lead. I say this having known and climbed with Mr. Mud for 187 years (yes, and that's not a typo), and having already talked to him a bit about the climb on the day it was done; in other words, I suspected that Dennis would agree that leading through and bolting the route would be fine (maybe I should have been more explicit though about what I thought I already knew?).

Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #385 on: April 28, 2014, 12:52:24 PM »
And to continue beating the crap out of an already dead horse:

To be clear, I would not retro-bolt any toprope route as a lead without contacting the first ascent party to get their consent (actually, I doubt that I'd even be interested in making any route like that - at least one that's existed for any length of time - a lead in the first place).

I actually had a discussion on that subject just last month with another poster here. We talked about the route Mousetrap and whether David Rubine would care or consent if someone wanted to bolt it on lead. My view was that he's easy to contact and should be asked before hand.

Now, I say let's find beanolar and lynch her for having started a longer and more serious conversation than I think she intended to.

beanolar

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #386 on: April 28, 2014, 01:14:41 PM »
Retro? Lynching? I thought this was about rock climbing.

Kristin will never bolt it, it was a joke. She only cares about getting "Chicken Shit Jug Haul" into the next guide book. Wherever it is, let's make it a top route route, because we loves TOP ROPE #1 hehehehehe

clink

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #387 on: April 28, 2014, 01:20:48 PM »
Norris and I have decided to erase Wrinkle Free on Flariron. I'll be damed if I am to share a FA with someone who dropped a rope off the top and climbed part of it by toprope. Maybe Bob and I did a second ascent of Angle Iron and should erase that as well. Rubine can put that in the history book and smoke it. I am still smiling and would top rope with anyone here, I don't agree with FA by toprope.
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Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #388 on: April 28, 2014, 01:22:55 PM »

Retro? Lynching? I thought this was about rock climbing...


Well, they both involve ropes don't they  ;D

And Clink, why don't you tell us how you really feel?

beanolar

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #389 on: April 28, 2014, 01:37:07 PM »
ha ha

we would also do a closely bolted 5.6

Atomizer

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #390 on: April 28, 2014, 01:39:48 PM »
At pinnacles there are so many small formations that have existing one or two bolt routes on them. Is it really necessary to bolt additional routes on these formations when it is possible to just top rope them?  Personally for me this is an eyesore and is self serving.  

The folks who say top-ropes aren't official climbs are just acting out for their egos. Anyone who won't accept a TR as a real climb is just trying to get their name in the book and pad their climb count. Those people feel their hard work at bolting a new route is devalued by the folks who claim TR FAs. There are so many frickin rules that others impose on us that it sickens me.  It's so childish and silly. For me it's about the climbing and could care less about other climbers and what they think are THE RULES. In my mind the top-rope climber is more humble and prefers the rock to be left as is.

I'm not going to say any one practice is more valid then another, but I hate it when people insist it should be one way.

I'm not in favor of the amount of bolting going on at Pinnacles at the moment. The active 1st ascensionists this year have a voracious appetite for putting up new routes that they may be losing site of why routes should be bolted at all. Part of the problem with bolting these short routes is that it allows you to put up mediocre lines quickly. When the decision is made to bolt a longer line and put many days of effort into it the thought process is different. Look at it like photography, when people use film they craft their images very carefully because it takes time and resources to get an end product. Where with digital imaging you can take as many photos as you want with very little expense and less consideration. Hell you don't even need to know how to expose anymore. I feel like these short routes are the same as digital.  If you can put up some 2-3 bolt thing and be done with it half a day, you might not think about it in a very holistic manner, where starting up a 4 pitch route you better have thought about what kind of craft you are creating and whether it is worth it. Personally I like to weigh the negative impacts of a new route against the benefits. How many people are really going to climb these new routes anyway? And how much veg loss will there be.

I would like to ask a few questions to those that feel leading is the only legit way to make routes.
1) Why do you feel the need to bolt new routes?
2) What do you get out of the experience of bolting new routes?
3) Who do you expect to do your routes.
4) Does the negative environmental impact justify your actions?
5) If you found an amazing line would you be able to restrain yourself from bolting it?

Personally I don't have a problem with TR climbing. Sometimes you just need to feel the movement of climbing without the restraints of fear. It can become more of a dance. But that said, there is nothing like the whole challenge of leading.

JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #391 on: April 28, 2014, 02:21:40 PM »
Retro? Lynching? I thought this was about rock climbing.

Kristin will never bolt it, it was a joke. She only cares about getting "Chicken Shit Jug Haul" into the next guide book. Wherever it is, let's make it a top route route, because we loves TOP ROPE #1 hehehehehe

Dude - get on and stay on the SHARP END :)
Climb more with me and Kat - we'll get you squared away!
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #392 on: April 28, 2014, 02:33:04 PM »
I hear you Adam. I would like to create some longer moderates that don't scare the hell out of people - or expose you to a ground or serious fall - although that seems to be a Pinns tradition - so there is also an argument to be made there.
Right now I just want to wrap up a couple open projects and get back to onsighting existing routes - I still have hundreds to do. I also want to spend a good portion of my time rebolting. I'm at a place in my life where I want to give back - and I feel I can do that by getting rid of dangerous old hardware and creating some more good beginner routes (of which there are very few).
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mungeclimber

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #393 on: April 28, 2014, 02:37:02 PM »
to fan the flames...


isn't top rope recognition, in whatever format, really a question of what a climbing website should report?  Or a guidebook author should report?
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #394 on: April 28, 2014, 02:38:37 PM »
we would also do a closely bolted 5.6

Do you mean create one or climb one?
If it is the latter - good luck at Pinns :)
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clink

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #395 on: April 28, 2014, 02:42:54 PM »
Without rules there is no game.

There are many games.

People who play scrabble have way bigger egos than foursquare players.
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squiddo

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #396 on: April 28, 2014, 02:53:22 PM »
Without rules there is no game.

There are many games.

People who play scrabble have way bigger egos than foursquare players.

DODGEBALL! Wait, sorry wrong topic. Its all different styles until John shows up in an Orange scarf or "man-pash"
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Every climb gets 3 stars from me until I climb it.
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #397 on: April 28, 2014, 03:45:52 PM »
Without rules there is no game.

Climbing is no game to me - the sharp end is where I feel most alive - and rules are made to be broken :)
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clink

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #398 on: April 28, 2014, 04:34:24 PM »
Quote
In 1941 George Hopkins parachuted onto Devils Tower, without permission, as a publicity stunt resulting from a bet. He had intended to descend by a rope dropped with him, but this failed to land on the tower summit. Hopkins was stranded for six days, exposed to cold, rain and 50 mph winds before a mountain rescue team finally reached him and brought him down.[21][22] His entrapment and subsequent rescue was widely covered by the media of the time.[23]

Bet he was trying to set up a top rope.


BTW 1941 was the year my Dad was born.
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clink

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #399 on: April 28, 2014, 04:39:08 PM »
Quote
Climbing is no game to me - the sharp end is where I feel most alive - and rules are made to be broken

Those kinda rules, yea lets break some.
Causing trouble when not climbing.