Author Topic: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)  (Read 2941926 times)

JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #860 on: December 18, 2017, 03:49:49 PM »
something could come off in a cheek-scum move.
a full resting ba-dunk-a-dunk

 :lol: :thumbup:
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JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #861 on: December 18, 2017, 05:03:21 PM »
also, I have been meaning to ask why do some of the new low fifth class routes have R ratings?  what qualifies the R? 
There are many  routes below 5.6 that  have little to no pro but do not have a R.

I like carrots  :yesnod: :biggrin:
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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #862 on: December 18, 2017, 06:46:14 PM »
Quote
I have been meaning to ask why do some of the new low fifth class routes have R ratings?  what qualifies the R?  There are many  routes below 5.6 that  have little to no pro but do not have a R.

 I was surprised when climbing with a 5.12 gym climber in the early 00's who would not climb easier Pinnacles routes because of the moderate runouts.
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NOAL

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #863 on: December 18, 2017, 07:07:48 PM »
I am not questioning the difficulty or psychological aspects of the climbs.  Mr. Mud somewhat answered my question.  Just never seen routes in other guidebooks rated 5.3 R.  How  would a new climber using the guidebook differentiate between easy 5th class old school routes with the same consequences as the new designated with a R? 

Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #864 on: December 18, 2017, 08:28:49 PM »
The question seems directed to me (appropriately so).

There certainly isn't any science to the "R" and "X" system (just like there isn't science to the star system either). I think it's impossible to "measure" most climbing dangers with much objectivity (it's kinda like trying to read the future).

Still, I do apply some criteria. Here are the major things I consider (leaving the actual definitions of "R" and "X" to what I already put in the book):

-  Not over-using either rating (or else they become meaningless);

-  Very, very rarely using either rating where the "dangerous" parts of the climb are more than two grades easier than the crux;

-  Decades of experience climbing and decades of experience with Pinnacles specifically, applied with thought route by route;

-  Overall perception of the route's danger (using the above);

-  Concern for specific dangers (potential for a shorter fall onto a ledge might merit an "R" whereas a longer but "clean" fall might not);

-  Thoughts about the quality of the route's protection.

Lastly, as to your question: "How  would a new climber using the guidebook differentiate between easy 5th class old school routes with the same consequences as the new designated with a R?"

Theoretically there shouldn't be any difference between old and new, the above criteria should be applied regardless of the route's age. Realistically, if there is more of a tendency to give newer easy routes "danger" ratings it's because I climbed many, many of the older, easier routes before I kept careful notes, and, as one human being, it isn't as possible to field check every aspect of every route as I wish it was.

Finally, as an example, the above paragraph should make it clear why I was really, really eager to get J.C.'s field notes as I started to work on the new edition. He's made high quality notes to many, many of the "easier" routes that I simply don't have the time or energy to go back to. Honestly too, his views on these issues are - to my perception - quite parallel to my own and so I feel like I can heavily trust his comments (kinda like Munge's thoughts regarding fifth class ratings - I've always given great weight to Rob's fifth class ratings since they've always been very, very close to my own and, by definition, in my view, spot on).


Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #865 on: December 18, 2017, 08:31:34 PM »

... since they've always been very, very close to my own and, by definition, in my view, spot on).


A preemptive and loving E.S.A.D. for what I know will be coming from Mr Mud next  ;)

NOAL

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #866 on: December 18, 2017, 09:03:34 PM »
Thanks for the insight Brad.

Personally, I like the X in Rubine's book for the easy climbs with no pro and all of the other climbs below 5.6 with pro don't get R. but hey, that's just me and you are writing the guidebook.  It's nice to see the reasoning behind the designation.




mungeclimber

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #867 on: December 18, 2017, 09:32:55 PM »
Honestly too, his views on these issues are - to my perception - quite parallel to my own and so I feel like I can heavily trust his comments (kinda like Munge's thoughts regarding fifth class ratings - I've always given great weight to Rob's fifth class ratings since they've always been very, very close to my own and, by definition, in my view, spot on).

We could be way off, but at least we're way off the 'correct' rating together. ;) :)
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Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #868 on: December 18, 2017, 09:47:26 PM »

We could be way off, but at least we're way off the 'correct' rating together. ;) :)


Whatever you do, DON'T let Dennis see you say that  ::)

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #869 on: December 18, 2017, 10:03:11 PM »
5.fucked is a bit crude in print but would work instesd of x.
i.e. climbing and then down climbing Maniac's in approach shoes, sans rope.

 Ratings were by reference for us, then the ratings changed for many of our reference standards. Portent, Entrance, Fly Bye, Jorgie's Crack, Swallow, H&L Regular route, Once around the Backside and Tilting Terrace. These were our standards for ratings of 5.4, 5.5, 5.6, 5.7 and 5.9.

 Only Ordeal 5.8 remained the same, even though none of the cruxes on these routes have changed. We may as well go to Mud's two rating system, it's either 5.7 or 5.11.
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mungeclimber

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #870 on: December 18, 2017, 10:47:27 PM »
Everything I do is 5.8+ because I don't climb harder than that.  ;D


mud lives in a parallel universe where ratings are based on the single hardest move, and not the cumulative effect... and then you drop the grade a letter. Really it's pretty understandable, but hard on the ego. ;)
On Aid at Pinns... It's all A1 til it crumbles. - Munge

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #871 on: December 19, 2017, 06:13:37 AM »
Two consonants and a vowel you meant.
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mynameismud

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #872 on: December 19, 2017, 09:47:38 AM »
I think overall over time there has been grade creep.  Pitches keep getting easier even though I keep getting older and softer.  The definition of 3rd class is you do not need a rope.  Over the years I have done a fair bit of 3rd class.  It seems more and more I do easy 5th that is easier than quite a bit of 3rd class I have done.  Not just at the Pins but all over the place.  Guidebooks are nice cuz you can look at when the route was put up.  If it was put up in recent times and it is is easy 5th I will without question solo it.  If it was put up 20 to 50 years ago I will always keep in mind how to down climb from where I am at.  People need the ego boost to claim a grade or a climb.

Even up here as I start to make lists and go out and explore.  Modern easy 5th, no problem.  Old Becky 3rd class, that is adventure climbing.

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Here's to sweat in your eye

JC w KC redux

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #873 on: December 19, 2017, 12:06:28 PM »

All this talk about grades makes me glad I don't teach any more.

We talked to a couple guys over the weekend that seemed to have limited experience.
One of them said he led Dos Equis without understanding what the R meant.
He understood afterwards.

Here are some old routes at Pinns (5.3 and below) with R's that have limited pro (gear or sling knobs) or bolts that become useless quickly.

Smiling Simian Easy Route 5.0R
Third Sister Approach NE Gully 5.0R
Fourth Sister North Rib 5.1R
Dwarf Pinnacle 5.2R
Third Sister Approach SW Corner 5.2R
Tiburcio's Ambush 5.2R
Toog's Terror 5.2R
Smokestack Regular Route 5.3R
The Camel South Face 5.3R


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Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #874 on: December 19, 2017, 12:15:25 PM »

All this talk about grades makes me glad I don't teach any more.


 ;D


Quote

We talked to a couple guys over the weekend that seemed to have limited experience.
One of them said he led Dos Equis without understanding what the R meant.
He understood afterwards.


 ;D  ;)

That was Jeff. He seemed to already be fond of the experience two weeks later.


Quote

Here are some old routes at Pinns (5.3 and below) with R's that have limited pro (gear or sling knobs) or bolts that become useless quickly...


No bolt is useless. It can always serve as a bad example.

mynameismud

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #875 on: December 19, 2017, 01:07:45 PM »
I do not see Dos Equis as being R.  There just is not anything dangerous about that climb.  Does an individual climb above gear? yes.  But there is no inherit danger to hitting anything.  I think it sets a bad example, do we start to give every route where a person has to climb five feet above a gear placement an R because someone might get a bit scared?
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mungeclimber

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #876 on: December 19, 2017, 01:22:26 PM »
I do not see Dos Equis as being R.  There just is not anything dangerous about that climb.  Does an individual climb above gear? yes.  But there is no inherit danger to hitting anything.  I think it sets a bad example, do we start to give every route where a person has to climb five feet above a gear placement an R because someone might get a bit scared?

No one suggested an R should come after 6' above gear. The R rating is very clearly about a competent leader at the grade would find it run out/hit a ledge. 5.4R leader would be scared on 5.4 moves where the gear is say 10' above last pro. But a 5.10d R leader, competent at 10d, and not 11a, would find that doing 10d 10' past the last bolt is also scary.

Dos Equis at 5.8 is a slab. You will hit something if you fall, namely the lower angle section. It is a fair distance from the last bolt to the anchor and there is a move there. Just because you can do it without being scared, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve an "R" on a piece of paper that one pays the privilege for.

When was the last time you got on it?

 
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Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #877 on: December 19, 2017, 01:24:34 PM »

...do we start to give every route where a person has to climb five feet above a gear placement an R because someone might get a bit scared?


Of course not (see the first of the criteria that I listed above).

But smooth and obstacle-free as it would be, it would be possible to take a 50 footer on that climb. Even a completely danger-less 50 foot fall get's an "R" (and there's no such thing as a danger-less fall).

Hey, changing subjects for a minute: Friday is my birthday. Why don't you fly down here and climb Friday and Saturday with me? We'd have to climb at Table Mountain (I think I wanna be home for my birthday this year). But you've always loved climbing at Table Mountain.

You in?  ::)  ::)

Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #878 on: December 19, 2017, 01:25:54 PM »
Hey Munge (and anyone else on here). How about Friday and Saturday? Up here?


Brad Young

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Re: Newly Established and Found Routes (Since the '07 Guidebook)
« Reply #879 on: December 19, 2017, 01:30:56 PM »
I added two routes to the list just now:

-  383.6  Endless Summer  5.1

-  629.1  See Ya Crater Alligator  5.5 R